Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mobius on February 01, 2009, 07:30:53 am
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I never create threads of this kind mailny because the vast majority of the people who browse these boards don't live here and/or wouldn't care that much about them. This time, however, I found something plenties of HLPers could comment.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7860593.stm
I understand the workers' point of view, but those strikes passed well beyond the limit. They're resulting, IMO, in some sort of jingoism mk II. Looks like someone is refusing to realize that the UK is not the only country facing recession and, well, the fact that there are clear rules in the EU for workers.
Workers should be more competitive to attract more attention. Simply complaining at more convenient choices leads to nothing, living in a country and deserve to get a specific assignment are two separate things.
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Put it this way, if you have a job and some guy from another country comes and takes your job you wouldn't be happy. These guys are just acting preemptively I guess. I'm not saying their actions are justified, it's just I understand their point of view.
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It's pretty stupid really. There's a shortage of skilled workers. A company wants 300 people. They can't find them in the UK. They hire from abroad. Other companies sack a bunch of workers. What the **** are they supposed to do?
Sack all the foreigners they hired (and no doubt go down the tubes themselves when they get sued to oblivion for breach of contract) or carry out the contract they agreed to carry out. If these people want to complain they need to complain at the company that originally sacked them.
Now if companies are bringing in foreigners from the EU to work more cheaply than UK workers that's another matter. But that's easily fixed. Simply allow the foreign workers to sue the company for discrimination. More work for the lawyers and courts and the companies that do that will soon stop. :p
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I agree, if they want an assignment they need to deserve it. If that company chose Italian workers there must be a good reason...moving the workers to the UK is not priceless and if someone decided to do it then it must be worth the effort.
Also, that article wasn't that clear about those Italian workers. They're from Siracusa, in Sicily(South Italy), and the south is by definition the most poor part of Italy. I live in the south and although I have a supposedly respectable life I know how hard the situation is for many, many people.
In order words, those workers would be in much worse conditions compared to their British counterparts.
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Oh so middle class wants all the fruits of globalization but don't want to pay for it?
"Well of course I can migrate to USA for higher income jobs and of course I will travel to cheap countries to act like a pig and of course I want to buy cheap goods from 3rd world but people coming here to seek better lifestyle? **** THEM" *is unemployed*
Yeah, certainly forcing companies to hire unqualified british workers over more qualified foreign nationals is excellent bussiness, right? You wouldn't scream bloody murder if someone decided to give your job to another guy just because you are british and he was not? No sire no, you wouldn't hahah who am I kidding
Well if this goes to force then the brits don't probably have any kind of problem of being disfavoured in EU, i mean law goes both ways, right.
Idiots
edit: Well we could do away with the UK Rebate as well!
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On a side note, I don't think the fact that those works come from another country of the EU is ethically relevant. Their provenience is relevant under a bureaucratic point of view, but nothing more. They may be Italians, Russians, Japanese, Arabians, etc. etc. The way to treat them should be the same, in any case.
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I think the Dail Mail style angst was triggered more by the company (Italian, I think ?) refusing point-blank to employ British people. Though I can't really see how they would turn Brits away without being accused of discrimination same as any other company refusing to employ foreigners.
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Put it this way, if you have a job and some guy from another country comes and takes your job you wouldn't be happy. These guys are just acting preemptively I guess. I'm not saying their actions are justified, it's just I understand their point of view.
That happens quite alot in Switzerland with german Doctors and such. But what can I say?
It's the bloody market. If somebody wants less money for it and is equally qualified - tough luck for the guy who absolutely wants more money for it.
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Hey look another misspelling smiley!
I wonder what other ones there are... alot, turrent...?
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This stuff goes on all the time in the US. Big corporations apply for guest worker visas to get skilled employees they claim aren't available in the US. Then they make their current employees train the ones brought in to take their jobs and terminate them. A lot of it is not about the skill of the workers it's about the bottom line and how cheap they can get someone to do the same job for.
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Then they make their current employees train the ones brought in to take their jobs and terminate them.
Train them to do the job badly then. :p
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Then the company just outright fires you and you don't get unemployment benefits.
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Nah. You just don't make it obvious that you trained them badly. :)
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Oh so middle class wants all the fruits of globalization but don't want to pay for it?
Here is a bit of globalization: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOtVg05JLPc
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I don't have much problem with "foreigners" working here. I do though have a problem with them being paid less than their UK counterparts. It drags down everyone's wages. Though I guess that's what minimum wage legislation is supposed to prevent.
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As I said, suing for discrimination would solve that problem. :D
Instead of protesting they should just bring a class action suit. :)
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What they shouldn't do is summoning Gordon Brown... :rolleyes:
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On a side note, I don't think the fact that those works come from another country of the EU is ethically relevant. Their provenience is relevant under a bureaucratic point of view, but nothing more. They may be Italians, Russians, Japanese, Arabians, etc. etc. The way to treat them should be the same, in any case.
Well certainly, but then one might as well waive all the rights that stem from being a EU member.
From ethical point of view yes, all workers should be equal. But the reverse is not British jobs for british people, it's jobs for EU citizens. If Britain really wants to keep foreigners out, they should kiss their share of EU goodbye.
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Though, it should be noted in passing that many European countries do, in fact, give preference to nationals first, the EU Members, then non-EU Members. It's not written down anywhere, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing, nor a good one, but it just is.
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Though, it should be noted in passing that many European countries do, in fact, give preference to nationals first, the EU Members, then non-EU Members. It's not written down anywhere, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing, nor a good one, but it just is.
well **** them as well!
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:lol:
My sentiments exactly. Oddly enough, Italy has a rule for work visas that require that the job be advertised locally for at least 3 days before looking further afield, once again, not good, not bad, just the way things are, firms cannot bring in a non-native workforce without attempting to hire from the local pool first.
Thing is, a few hundred jobs here or there are not going to make a difference, what is needed is not jobs, it's stimulus, it's the growth of industry that has spent the last 50 years being obliterated by our Governments, the jobs are a side effect of growth, not vice-versa as many of these strikers seem to believe.
Yes, from a personal point of view it's bad for the workers, and I feel for them, but in the long term, the prime objective of just about every country should be to stimulate growth, regardless of the nationality of the workforce, if that mentality could be applied across the board, then that nationality would not mean a thing.
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We need another space race.
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We need out of the EU, is more like it.
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When our currency is soon likely to be worth less than the Euro I'm not sure that is a good idea.
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We can potentially weather this financial situation better than the eurozone countries for that very reason. Individual economies need individual currency adjustments.
I'm not sure it'll end up worth less anyway, and even if it does - woohoo, export market improves.
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Given that France is doing much better than we are I don't know if less European integration is the right answer. Sounds more like a chance for Europhobes to come up with a proposal for a quick fix that won't help the country at all but sounds good cause it blames Johnny foreigner for the problem instead of concentrating on the mistakes we made ourselves.
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Given that France is doing much better than we are I don't know if less European integration is the right answer. Sounds more like a chance for Europhobes to come up with a proposal for a quick fix that won't help the country at all but sounds good cause it blames Johnny foreigner for the problem instead of concentrating on the mistakes we made ourselves.
"hmmm the eu area is our biggest market and most of the policy dealing with europe and eastern atlantic sea is done in eu. quick, let's get out of the eu! wait why aren't you listening to us baaah"
I'd really like to see someone really pull out of EU (well we do have Greenland but..) just to see what would happen and how it would work. Removing a large net payer would make a dent in EU's cashflow and force it to change policies, but willfully isolating yourself from the very organizations that shape the policy that affects you is not a good idea.
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Given that France is doing much better than we are I don't know if less European integration is the right answer. Sounds more like a chance for Europhobes to come up with a proposal for a quick fix that won't help the country at all but sounds good cause it blames Johnny foreigner for the problem instead of concentrating on the mistakes we made ourselves.
Oh I never said it would fix this problem. It just seemed an opportune moment.
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An opportune moment to do what? **** ourselves in the arse?
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An opportune moment to do what? **** ourselves in the arse?
.. in the name of Britain!
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An opportune moment to do what? **** ourselves in the arse?
.. in the name of Britain!
God save the queen.
:lol:
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Alright, that's one hell of a weird ending. How are they going to pay those additional 100 British workers? What should the others say? :wtf:
Speaking of EU intergration, there are good and bad things. It's good to benefit of someone else's progress, but it's damn bad to be forced to adapt your economy to EU standards. That's why Poland doesn't use the Euro - their system, made ad hoc, is the only one they need to ensure growth without any bad, external influence.
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Well, if Poland (or any other country) considers EU's pollicies as an external influence, they better stay out off it for good.
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I'm refering to certain economical influences that relent a given country's economical progress instead of helping it. It's only a little drawback.
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Alright, that's one hell of a weird ending. How are they going to pay those additional 100 British workers? What should the others say? :wtf:
Speaking of EU intergration, there are good and bad things. It's good to benefit of someone else's progress, but it's damn bad to be forced to adapt your economy to EU standards. That's why Poland doesn't use the Euro - their system, made ad hoc, is the only one they need to ensure growth without any bad, external influence.
EMU and EU are not the same thing, though. The political decisions made (theoretically) for the entire EU are not always kind to individual countries, that is a given. Britain does exert considerable muscle in EU institutions, but is not part of the EMU as in using Euro as a currency. However, the market climate cannot be discarded out of hand: individual countries' decisions whether to adopt Euro or not are, after all, heavily dependent on the circumstances, as well as political will and capital to move certain amount of economic self-control into other institutions - although one might argue that with global markets and such closely-knit economic area as EU, the control of one's own market and monetary policy is just an illusion.
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Right. I was refering to the EMU, not the EU. That's why I mentioned Poland(which is in the EU but not in the EMU for the reasons I explained above). :)