Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Diaspora => Topic started by: karajorma on February 01, 2009, 06:29:59 pm
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The team have been spending the last 10 minutes trying to figure out what Galactica's current fighter complement is, what it was when it was in fully active service and what Pegasus had in order to balance the Theseus against them.
After a while I pointed out that we have a forum full of Galactica fans who would no doubt be more that happy to supply an answer/fight to the death over numbers. :)
So how many Vipers/Raptors is it?
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Hm, in the mini Adama mentions that there is a full squadron MkII's in the Starboard Hangar.
This means there are 40 Fighters ( mentioned by Lee in season one "act of contrition" ).
Also in the Mini, the "remaining Squadron" was destroyed.
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We can assume Galactica had at least 80 Fighters.
For the Raptors, not sure.
They lost many of 'em BEFORE they teamed up with Pegasus, so i guess there are at least 15-20 Raptors on Galactica at the beginning of the show ("33").
My guess is, that Galactica had 80 Fighters ( plus a unknown reserve ) on each Pod during the first Cylon War.
You have always a couple of Fighters down for repair, and you have to maintain a cap.
It is mentioned that 20 fighters aren't enough to maintain a cap ( in "33" Starbuck says that a cap is 3 hours long ).
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For Pegasus: My guess is that the beast has at least 2 times the Fighter complement of the Galactica. Same for the Raptors
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They used many of 'em in "the passage", and judging from the number of flights the Pilots have to do ( multiple jumps in a short time ), they have at least 25 Raptors ( assuming that they can't repair the damage caused by the nebula within a couple of minutes.
For the Theseus: Depends on the size in comparison to Galactica.
If it's smaller my suggestion would be, 40 Fighters plus a reserve of 5 and 6 Raptors.
If it's the same size, 80 Fighters plus a reserve of 5 and 8 Raptors
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According to the BattleStar Wiki, it had 34 Vipers after the original attack, and around 80 after the Battle of New Caprica.
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Galactica
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According to the BattleStar Wiki, it had 34 Vipers after the original attack, and around 80 after the Battle of New Caprica.
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Galactica
In the episode where Athena plugs her to Galactica's computer to get rid of the Virus ( season 2, before they meet Pegasus ) and a HUGE Cylon fighter force is attacking, there are more Vipers on screen then the numbers mentioned in the Wiki.
Apollo says in "act of contrition" that he has 40 Vipers and only 21 Pilots.
The 80 Fighters are indeed confirmed by Tigh in season 4 ( before the Attack on the Hub ).
Although i think he didn't count in the birds that are down for repairs.
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According to my knowledge Galactica class ship has 80 vipers + 40 reserve vipers. thats 40+20 for each flightpod. Pegasus had 240 + 80 reserve as "normal". I don't know about the number of Raptors, but every viper squad has a raptor assigned to them, and a squad is 8+4, 12 vipers. Thats at least 10 raptors for Galactica, and 30 or perhaps 40 for Pegasus.
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I think we were discussing the wartime compliment not the series "Run to the Hills" compliment? The Viper catapults indicate 80 at the least, however if we used that as a final decider then a Nimitz would have only 4 birds. Quite frankly a Galactica flightpod is about two to three times the length of a Nimitz class carrier, which holds about 100 planes. In addition real world planes are substantially bigger then Vipers, (I never got why scifi always made tiny fighters when real combat craft are massive beasts). Just on the basis of available space a Battlestar probably has the ability to hold hundreds of fighters. Not that i'm saying gameplay wise we need to have 400 Vipers tooling around, but on a "Fluff" basis i tend to think a Battlestar loaded for boar has the available space to be hauling a truly massive airwing.
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In the episode where Athena plugs her to Galactica's computer to get rid of the Virus ( season 2, before they meet Pegasus ) and a HUGE Cylon fighter force is attacking, there are more Vipers on screen then the numbers mentioned in the Wiki.
That's been confirmed by the FX people as an effects goof. Which is good, considering that force included the Blackbird (which wasn't even flight-ready until the end of the episode.)
Battlestar Wiki suggests the Pegasus might carry as many as 180 Mark VIIs. The source is an 'Intelligence Debrief' in the Battlestar Galactica official magazine, so its canonicity is doubtful, I should think.
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I think we were discussing the wartime compliment not the series "Run to the Hills" compliment? The Viper catapults indicate 80 at the least, however if we used that as a final decider then a Nimitz would have only 4 birds. Quite frankly a Galactica flightpod is about two to three times the length of a Nimitz class carrier, which holds about 100 planes. In addition real world planes are substantially bigger then Vipers, (I never got why scifi always made tiny fighters when real combat craft are massive beasts). Just on the basis of available space a Battlestar probably has the ability to hold hundreds of fighters. Not that i'm saying gameplay wise we need to have 400 Vipers tooling around, but on a "Fluff" basis i tend to think a Battlestar loaded for boar has the available space to be hauling a truly massive airwing.
I tend to agree about the wartime complement.
The Columbia class was supposed to fight the Cylon Hades class ( TOS style ) Basestar, which seems to be larger then the Columbia class.
The TOS version had 300 Fighters, so we can assume that the RIS version of the Hades class is almost the same.
So it would make sense to have at least 80 fighters per pod plus a reserve ( 40 ? Vipers total or per pod ?).
Lets assume this numbers are right, 160 fighters plus a reserve of 40 for the Columbia class, double these numbers for the Mercury class Battlestars and use this as a base ( adjust from here ) for the Theseus.
Galactica has 20 launchtubes on each pod, how many has the Theseus atm?
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Galactica has 40 per pod 2 between each rib
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I'd have to agree on the general consensus of 80 per flight pod.
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What's the max you could pack in there model wise and still have room for combat landings? You would think in a war situation it would be packed to the max initially. In normal times probably not so much as squadrons would probably rotate with some being stationed planet side.
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According to the BattleStar Wiki, it had 34 Vipers after the original attack, and around 80 after the Battle of New Caprica.
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Galactica
Unfortunately the Wiki doesn't cite its sources very well.
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According to my knowledge Galactica class ship has 80 vipers + 40 reserve vipers. thats 40+20 for each flightpod. Pegasus had 240 + 80 reserve as "normal". I don't know about the number of Raptors, but every viper squad has a raptor assigned to them, and a squad is 8+4, 12 vipers. Thats at least 10 raptors for Galactica, and 30 or perhaps 40 for Pegasus.
As Meleardil has well said.. These are the numbers, IMHO. Take into account that Pegasus had technology to produce fighters and Raptors its self and also that "The Beast" resuplied Galactica with new toys before the Cain vs. Adama' situation.
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Wasn't the starboard flight pod turned into a gift shop?
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Wasn't the starboard flight pod turned into a gift shop?
Yeah, but it was clearly brought at least partially online later -- Major Adama landed his Raptor there when returning from the infected base ship in 'Torn/A Measure of Salvation'.
The starboard hangar deck became Camp Oilslick and later Dogsville.
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I never got why scifi always made tiny fighters when real combat craft are massive beasts
Well, FreeSpace ships can't really be accused of that. :p
As far as size goes though, WW2-style combat aka dogfights are more cinematic (to the public) with close range and better maneuverability (or lower velocities, much the same thing really) so it makes more sense that the planes are sized more like those birds, which are surprisingly small. Early jet fighters are comparable in size as well (like Ta-183, F-86 Sabre and MiG-15 with swept wings and one engine in the fuselage...)
Another reason is that most of the area that fighterplanes take is because of the weight requirements which are a lot bigger for jet fighters than WW2 fightercrafts, due to increased fuel consumption and range and weight of weapons systems and other assorted stuff in the plane - not to mention the requirements that arise from supersonic structural integrity and other things like that. So the baseline is that our fighters have to weight a lot to do what they need to do, and the weight means they need a lot of wing area, which defines their overall dimensions.
Vipers have a lot different mission profile; it's obvious that they aren't primarily designed for atmospheric combat (or alternatively they have some advanced gravimetric stuff that is pulled out of writers' collective ass but I don't want to think so...). Even then, the more advanced engine technology allows the fuel tanks to be substantially smaller which already reduces weight and physical dimensions of the plane, and when you add the fact that the physical dimensions aren't slaved to atmospheric performance, other things are possible to prioritize - like the flight deck handling, which is helped by smaller dimensions.
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As said, a lot of a modern combat aircraft is made up of the cockpit, the life support systems, the avionics, the engines and fuel tanks. A Viper in theory has a smaller life support system because it doesn't appear to have a pressurised cockpit, the pilot wearing a sealed suit instead, has no apparent anti-G system and appears to have simpler avionics (the weapons system alone must be very simple, given they just use guns and unguided rockets). The bulk of the Viper fuselage seems to be engines, but again, they're smaller because there is no drag to fight against in space, and the fuel tanks are smaller for the same reason. It's not unrealistic to have space fighters smaller than air fighters.
I believe Galactica was meant to have four Viper squadrons, two per pod, plus a Raptor squadron and a few shuttles. In this case, a full complement of 80 Vipers sounds reasonable, and would allow each fighter to be stowed in the entrance to the launch tube ready for launch under normal combat ops, where there would be less issues regarding supplies, crew, maintenance and so on. You don't over-stuff warships, because then the excess gets in the way and slows down operations. You also don't leave equipment and supplies cluttering gangways, where they pose a fire risk and can block access if they fall over, but the show abandons these practices.
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In the episode where Athena plugs her to Galactica's computer to get rid of the Virus ( season 2, before they meet Pegasus ) and a HUGE Cylon fighter force is attacking, there are more Vipers on screen then the numbers mentioned in the Wiki.
RDM admitted in an interview that there were more Vipers than actuality and that the shot was done only to "look cool".
Dont trust on-screen viper numbers.
[Mercury Class Battlestar]This, probably the largest of the battlestars, may be able to carry a maximum of 180 Viper Mark VII fighters (six to eight squadrons and one reserve squadron) [2].
List of Vipers (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/List_of_Vipers)
Also somewhere in the wiki I had seen that Galactica type Battlestars carry 4 squadrons of 20 Vipers and a complement of Raptors.
2 per pod. That's at full operational capacity of course.
As others have said, wiki says after attack Galactica had 34 vipers. After Pegasus destruction it had about 80.
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It's kind of annoying that they took off the Viper tally article, where it sourced exactly how they were counting the vipers for the first season and a half. The 80-vipers figure comes from Sine Qua Non, where they mention that half the vipers were transferred to the Rebel Baseship, so they only had 40 left. Which leads to the odd situation where Starbuck complains about the difficulty of flying a CAP around the fleet with so few birds. I can only assume they'd gotten soft with such an embarrassment of planes, since back in season 1, they had more ships to protect with a smaller number of Vipers.
Incidentally, I used to think the number 80 was a little low after they said it, considering that there were about 80 vipers just assing around Pegasus for no reason in half of the shots of that ship, but I just realized that it solves the earlier problem I had, which was that by taking on the Pegasus squadrons, Galactica would've had more Vipers than she could carry. Eighty is about the max you could fit in one pod, judging by the layout of the hanger deck. As for what happened to the extras, I'd guess they were disassembled and stored, possibly used for parts.
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Bollocks
A Nimitz class super carrier is 1,040 feet at the waterline, compared to a Galactica type which is 4,640 feet in length. Her pod alone is 2018 feet long; nearly double the length of the Nimitz. A Nimitz carries 90 fixed wing and rotary aircraft, in nearly half the space. In addition those aircraft are much larger then a their BSG counterparts. A F/A-18E/F Rhino is 60 ft 1¼ in long with a wingspan of 44 ft 8½ in compared to a Mk VII which is 32.3 feet long and a wingspan of only 18.4 feet.
By comparison a WW2 Essex class carrier which was only 872 ft long and could carry 90-110 aircraft that were Viper sized. A F4U Corsair was 33 ft 4 in in length and had a wingspan of 41 ft. Thats still larger then the aforementioned Viper in a space about 43% of the length of the flight pod. Galactica should comfortably fit 400 Vipers let alone 80 between 2 flight pods. Not that gameplay wise having 400 Vipers tooling around is a viable option but fluff wise unless the colonials severely underutilized the space on their battlestars then 80 Vipers is ruddy shenanigans.
Galactic vs Nimitz: http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/ColonialMarine/Galactica%20et%20al/800px-Bsg-2-cvn-1.jpg (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/ColonialMarine/Galactica%20et%20al/800px-Bsg-2-cvn-1.jpg)
Galactica: http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Galactica_type_battlestar (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Galactica_type_battlestar)
Nimitz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nimitz_(CVN-68) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Nimitz_(CVN-68))
F-18: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18_Super_Hornet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18_Super_Hornet)
Viper MK VII: http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Viper_Mark_VII (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Viper_Mark_VII)
Essex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex_class_aircraft_carrier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex_class_aircraft_carrier)
F4U Corsair: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F4U_Corsair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F4U_Corsair)
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I can see 80+reserve per pod but 80 in total does seem ridiculously small to me too.
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Yes, but the actual hangar deck is relatively narrow. You can look at exterior pictures all you like, but it doesn't change design of the set. Now, the hangar set is, apparently, a fairly typical segment. It's got two pairs of launch tubes, with a launch control room in between them. Behind each of two of these tubes is a neat little space happens to perfectly fit a Viper. There's a double-wide behind another tube and the launch control room where you could fit two vipers. The fourth is taken up by the toolroom. So, at an absolute minimum, assuming every segment is identical, and that there isn't more hangar extending past the launch tubes, that means that there are 40 Viper parking spaces in a single pod. Taking a more rational view, that there's only one tool room per hangar segment (eight launch tubes bordered on each side by an aircraft elevator, or two iterations of the set), and that the there are another two hangar segments (one on each end) with no launch tubes (doubling their storage capacity), then we get up to 81 viper parking spaces. So, that's fairly comfortable, space-wise.
But let's go nuts! After all, there's that big main drag of the hangar bay, where they do the work and keep the Raptors and move Vipers in and out of the tubes and on and off of the aircraft elevators. It's just wide enough you could have a Viper in ready position, just behind the tube but not all the way back into its parking space. So, filling it until you can't fill it no more, the Galactica's port flight pod could hold another 66 Vipers, bringing us to a grand total of 147 Vipers per flight pod, or 294 for a fully functional battlestar. I'd like to reiterate that movement would be severely restricted, both for personnel and for craft, and there is no room at all in this loadout for Raptors and shuttles. Or, for that matter, forklifts, pallets of poorly-secured communications drones, captured Cylon raiders, and whatever other things populate the hangar deck.
Now, giving people and planes enough room to move around, and enough free floor space for a few shuttles and twenty-odd raptors, I think an upper limit of eighty vipers per pod on a Galactica-type battlestar is more than reasonable.
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By comparison a WW2 Essex class carrier which was only 872 ft long and could carry 90-110 aircraft that were Viper sized. A F4U Corsair was 33 ft 4 in in length and had a wingspan of 41 ft. Thats still larger then the aforementioned Viper in a space about 43% of the length of the flight pod. Galactica should comfortably fit 400 Vipers let alone 80 between 2 flight pods. Not that gameplay wise having 400 Vipers tooling around is a viable option but fluff wise unless the colonials severely underutilized the space on their battlestars then 80 Vipers is ruddy shenanigans.
Now that's the kind of logic and comparison I was thinking of. You could assume the 80 was only because of the ship being turned into a museum. The normal peacetime compliment would be much higher and a full blown war loadout could be many times larger especially for reserves. Think stacking reserve ships in a nose to tail WWWW type formation and 400 would seem like a low number.
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I dont see how comparing BSG to a Nimitz is of any use.
The fact RDM admitted they had more vipers on screen in some shots for "better looks" should be enough to stomp all serious discussion on size of a Battlestar's viper complement.
Also, yes the pod of Galactica is twice as long as a Nimitz carrier...however if you look at the Hangar Deck, it seemed sized for 40 vipers. It certainly doesnt look like it's 600m long. Everything is really tight and small.
Plus, most of the sources indicate a 80 Viper complement. The 34 Viper number given in Wiki makes sense after the initial attack. Also on the Pilot organizational chart they had 4 Squadron Leaders and 1 CAG. This also supports a 80 viper force as squadrons are around 20 vipers.
Pegasus' complement of 6-8 squads and 180 Vipers makes sense also. 8 Active and 1 Reserve squadron of 20 Vipers each adds up to 180 total.
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They could use a rotational system, one set of Vipers pre-mounted in the launch bay, ready for instant launch, and another set on Deck, ready to be loaded? It could be that the 'Flight Deck' is, in truth, merely an area for repair and maintenance of bent birds?
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...and there is no room at all in this loadout for Raptors and shuttles. Or, for that matter, forklifts, pallets of poorly-secured communications drones, captured Cylon raiders...
Shuttles are parked on the landing deck ( seen multiple times during the show ), they are way to big to be stored on the hangar deck.
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I've just always assumed there's a huge amount of 'stuff' between the interior compartments and the outer plates. I mean, you've practically got the length of the launch tubes between the 'inside' and the 'outside'. No surprise when you notice how much the effects of a nuclear explosion are damped by the time they reach the interior.
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80 per pod seems like the most reasonable number, honestly.
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I would agree with the 80 per pod for a fully manned wartime complement. How does that compare to ships of similar size to galactica, in other universes, ie SW, FS, WC etc?
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80 per pod, 20 vipers per squadron, its how it looks, i mean galactica had one squad of vipers left on board during the attack and they where taken out while on patrol.
however limiting the ship to only 40 per flight pod is kinda silly, i mean at the moment they probably have more vipers than we can see since lee would of left all the vipers from peg with the civys. galacticas pods are pritty big, and remember we have only seen the level under the flight deck. they would shurley have further storage space for the other vipers on levels below the hanger.
the set we see is only part of the hanger, i mean its at least 40 tubes long but could easly span the entire length of the pod, we dont see it all because there are lifts between the various sections of hanger deck. this is done to save money, if they have to show extended section they slap it in with cgi
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80 per pod, 20 vipers per squadron...
Adama said in the Mini to Starbuck, that "there's a entire Squadron on the starboard pod".
They had 40 Vipers, so i guess it's 40 per squadron.
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you cant take everything said on the show literally.
im using the 20 number from the fact that galacticas only functioning squadron of vipers was already off out and about. and it looked to be no more than 20 mk VII vipers.
galactica was an old ship so they wouldnt need more than a squadron givin her age, converstion to museam and the fact the was operating deep in colonial space.
in operating terms you could have four active squadrons of 20, each with a wing of 5 vipers and further vipers and squads
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By comparison a WW2 Essex class carrier which was only 872 ft long and could carry 90-110 aircraft that were Viper sized. A F4U Corsair was 33 ft 4 in in length and had a wingspan of 41 ft. Thats still larger then the aforementioned Viper in a space about 43% of the length of the flight pod. Galactica should comfortably fit 400 Vipers let alone 80 between 2 flight pods. Not that gameplay wise having 400 Vipers tooling around is a viable option but fluff wise unless the colonials severely underutilized the space on their battlestars then 80 Vipers is ruddy shenanigans.
Now that's the kind of logic and comparison I was thinking of. You could assume the 80 was only because of the ship being turned into a museum. The normal peacetime compliment would be much higher and a full blown war loadout could be many times larger especially for reserves. Think stacking reserve ships in a nose to tail WWWW type formation and 400 would seem like a low number.
It's bollocks - no logic at all. As far as I recall, WWII carriers didn't have 40 catapults internal to the hull, didn't have well over 100 twin barrel CIWS batteries, life support systems for operation in zero atmoshere, lifts to the landing deck that had to pass through enormous airlocks, enough fuel and ammunition stores to last the unsupported deployment of upto nine years (as evidenced by Galactia's water system), have artificial gravity systems and so on.
The hangars are very small - a tiny proprtion of the pods. 80 Vipers to a Galactica class sounds right. We know they had four squadrons, and the boards in the crew rooms have spaces for about 20 pilots per squadron, which is realistic. You do not have squadrons of 40 aircraft - thats a wing.
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You really think that Galactica had 40 Vipers per pod? :confused:
The boards in the crew rooms aren't much use as we've only ever seen the Galactica after one of the pods was decommissioned anyway.
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You really think that Galactica had 40 Vipers per pod? :confused:
The boards in the crew rooms aren't much use as we've only ever seen the Galactica after one of the pods was decommissioned anyway.
Yeah, the crew room on the Pegasus wasn't much bigger, and the beast did have a larger fighter complement.
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By comparison a WW2 Essex class carrier which was only 872 ft long and could carry 90-110 aircraft that were Viper sized. A F4U Corsair was 33 ft 4 in in length and had a wingspan of 41 ft. Thats still larger then the aforementioned Viper in a space about 43% of the length of the flight pod. Galactica should comfortably fit 400 Vipers let alone 80 between 2 flight pods. Not that gameplay wise having 400 Vipers tooling around is a viable option but fluff wise unless the colonials severely underutilized the space on their battlestars then 80 Vipers is ruddy shenanigans.
Now that's the kind of logic and comparison I was thinking of. You could assume the 80 was only because of the ship being turned into a museum. The normal peacetime compliment would be much higher and a full blown war loadout could be many times larger especially for reserves. Think stacking reserve ships in a nose to tail WWWW type formation and 400 would seem like a low number.
It's bollocks - no logic at all. As far as I recall, WWII carriers didn't have 40 catapults internal to the hull, didn't have well over 100 twin barrel CIWS batteries, life support systems for operation in zero atmoshere, lifts to the landing deck that had to pass through enormous airlocks, enough fuel and ammunition stores to last the unsupported deployment of upto nine years (as evidenced by Galactia's water system), have artificial gravity systems and so on.
The hangars are very small - a tiny proprtion of the pods. 80 Vipers to a Galactica class sounds right. We know they had four squadrons, and the boards in the crew rooms have spaces for about 20 pilots per squadron, which is realistic. You do not have squadrons of 40 aircraft - thats a wing.
WWII Essex carriers bristled with 20mm orelikons, 40mm Bofors and 5 inch dual purpose guns while not as impressive as Galactica's rows of CIWS it is not inconsiderable. In addition they carried fuel for themselves and their airwing plus all the ordinance for her defense guns and her stikecraft (aircraft ordinance that probably exceeds what we have seen in BSG since how often are Vipers loaded with bombs and torpedoes?), boilers, engines, berths, stores, etc. In a space that is 872 ft long 93 wide and 43ft draught. Compared to a Galactica pod that is 2018 feet in length 361 feet wide and 210 high (this is probably the toughest number the quantify since most of it is actually the flight deck cover). On the Galactica model the cats are roughly 70m, 210 feet which means the remaining space to fit the hangar deck is roughly 150 feet at the beam. Even if we gave 50 ft to armor that still leaves a space roughly 100 feet long to fit her hangar and whatever else. That is still wider then the entire width of an Essex class carrier.
While it is true the pods might be chalk a block full of aviation fuel, ordinance, life support and gravity generators, we don't know that it is either or how much space it takes up. Her life support and aviation fuel might be piped in from the main hull, in addition the majority of her ordinance maybe in the magazines in her main hull as well. We've seen them ship 40 Vipers across from one pod to the other in minimal time so it is entirely possible they maintain minimal ordinance and fuel storage in the pods and resupply as needed. It makes sense in a way that the pods are perhaps the most exposed part of the ship and turning them into to massive potential bonfires full of bombs and fuel might be avoided, especially if they can quickly ship in stuff from her main hull. We also don't know the extent of the machinery that powers her cats either. The steam driven ones on modern carriers are massive beasts, on the other hand the USN has investigated different space saving technologies such as electro magnates in order to get away steam cats. The Colonial catapults might be a fairly compact. Point is we've never even seen Galactica's engine room, so making assumptions that the equipment and machinery in the pod that need only support her flight ops, and CIWS is so massive is it takes up nearly all the space in her pods is something neither you nor I can say with finality.
They might only have a strip no wider then a 2 lane road to fit Vipers in, and I will concede that that is a possibility. Quite frankly its true that without a firm grasp on her technology which RDM merrily refuses to provide we have no idea what her inards look like. On the other hand I could probably float an Essex class carrier; which was a warship that contained all machinery and stores to power itself, house its crew, defend itself and sustain 110 aircraft , through one of the pods. I personally can't really believe the Galactica carries less fighters between two such pods.
* I have not seen season 4, however, LTC informs me a considerable amount of her inner workings were recently revealed. I'm not sure if that has made my arguments null and void, if so then I concede the debate, otherwise I will let them stand
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The idea galactica could not hold more than 40 vipers per pod is a bit silly, i mean she has ample space in each pod to accomadate far more, plus raptors.
here is a side view of galactica
red indicates the lifts to the flight deck
green is the space availiable on the deck beyond the launch tubes
yellow is the space availaible directly beneath the hanger
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2nhlttv.jpg)
the vipers are not much bigger than the fighters in the below picture taken on board an essex class carrier
vipers can be stored quite close to each other , like the fighters in the below picture, tyrols crew would only need the deck for fighters that are in need of work, various craft can be put into storage. i mean where do you think all galacticas vipers are when we see parts of the hanger deck ?? many times we will see the deck empty bar one raptor etc. for a military vessle im shure she is able to handle quite a large fighter group
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a9/Yorktownhellcats.jpg)
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What about storage not in the pods? At the rapid rate they were able to move them from the "gift shop" into the other pod there has to be an easy way to transport them between the pods. You would think that would be a storage/maintenance area of some sort for the Vipers.
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indeed, the truth is they could store ships in the middle to. there are many parts of the ship we have not seen. there are also many lower levels.
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* I have not seen season 4, however, LTC informs me a considerable amount of her inner workings were recently revealed. I'm not sure if that has made my arguments null and void, if so then I concede the debate, otherwise I will let them stand
Nothing that renders your arguments null since the revealed part of the ship is not related to this discussion, but it does give us nice clues how big certain machineries aboard the ship are.
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Here's a discussion about this on the Battlestar Wiki forum (http://www.battlestarforum.com/showthread.php?t=463) FYI.
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indeed, the truth is they could store ships in the middle to. there are many parts of the ship we have not seen. there are also many lower levels.
We don't have any idea if there is any space set aside in the main hull for other vessels, though anything other than a corridor to move items from one pod to the other would seem unlikely.
As to the assertions over the comparison to the WWII Essex class carriers, sure they had engines, boiler rooms, crew quarters, magazines and the like, but they were spread over several decks. Everything on the Galactica's pods is basically on one deck, as the vast majority of the volume of the pods is dedicated to the landing bays, which are large enough to each take a squadron of C17s. If the Essex is a quarter the size of a Galactica pod, then why can't you fit four C17s on it?
The Galactica pods have only one full deck below the landing deck, with the deck between seeming to consist only of a viewing gallery and length-ways corridor. the hangar deck itself is extremely linited on space, comprising at most 1/3 the width of the pod, each launch tube being roughly twice in length the width of the hangar, or more. that means that of the space of the hangar deck, at least two thirds of it is occupied by launch tubes. then there's the magazines, fuel storage, parts and tools stores, crew rooms, parking bays for tugs, fork lifts and so on, life support systems, generators, water supply, the extensive power and ammunition system for the CIWS batteries.
To fit all of that in such a single deck is going to severely limit the space of the hangar. To believe that 160 (or the 200+ figures that some give) Vipers, plus the other craft, could be routinely stationed aboard such a vessel id nothing other than ridiculous "fanwank"
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indeed, the truth is they could store ships in the middle to. there are many parts of the ship we have not seen. there are also many lower levels.
We don't have any idea if there is any space set aside in the main hull for other vessels, though anything other than a corridor to move items from one pod to the other would seem unlikely.
The Galactica pods have only one full deck below the landing deck...
To fit all of that in such a single deck is going to severely limit the space of the hangar. To believe that 160 (or the 200+ figures that some give) Vipers, plus the other craft, could be routinely stationed aboard such a vessel id nothing other than ridiculous "fanwank"
Around 160-200 Vipers ( for a Columbia class ) IS a good number. It makes sense.
We don't know if there is a storage deck ( or storage room ) beneath the hangar deck.
In Razor we see that the Cylons deploy the Hades class Basestar, which can carry ( in TOS ) 300 Raiders.
Granted, no one ever confirmed ANY numbers ( except in the mini, Adama said "one squadron on the starboard pod" = 40 Vipers ).
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To fit all of that in such a single deck is going to severely limit the space of the hangar. To believe that 160 (or the 200+ figures that some give) Vipers, plus the other craft, could be routinely stationed aboard such a vessel id nothing other than ridiculous "fanwank"
Your arrogance is irritating. I answer with Horatius: Odi profanum vulgus et arceo. So, the following numbers are not for you.
There are 3 decks there plus the main deck...according to my observations. The whole pod is 650 meter long. The hangar section is 350 meter long and about 100 meter wide. Thats 4 x 100 x 350 = 140 000 square meter. One viper needs maximum 50 square meter space. Lets assume that only 10% of that space is used for viper storage. Thats 280 viper for EACH pod. It is only the possibility of course. Therefore any number between 100 and 500 vipers are equally good. We shall decide the number which suits us the best, both for the story and for gameplay.
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I don't know about the numbers but if you remember when lee landed his viper on colonial one, That landing or storage area was huge. Now with the most recent episode Colonial one landed inside the Galactica. It seems to me they can fit a huge number of vipers in various places aboard without impacting landings or launches.
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An ugly picture since I'm using placeholder textures but yes, that is a Boeing 747. :p
(http://www.freespacefaq.com/Misc-Pics/PegComparison.jpg)
The barely visible shape next to it is a MK II Viper.
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I honestly think that any number <200 is really small for a vessel of the Galactica's size (Assuming standard outfit, which the Galactica doesn't have anymore). The USS Enterprise, a WWII era vessel carried 90 fighters, in addition to a crew of 2000, and 48 guns of various sizes. All in a space of 230m.
Given miniaturization, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a fully modernized and operational battlestar could have ~300 vipers per pod (Not all actively being used, of course).
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That is probably the better question. What is the practical cap for active Vipers? Not so much a storage space but how many could be controlled from each tube? I figure one in the tube, one ready to go, one in flight and one up for refuel/rearm would be the practical max. So that's 4 per tube.
Now there could be more in storage fully fueled and armed but getting them into the rotation would be a problem unless there is a major offensive planned where it was well coordinated and there was no possibility of a retreat where all the Vipers needed to land quickly. Which brings up another limiting factor which I think I mentioned before. How many can do a combat landing at once? You wouldn't want more that that launched at any one time under normal circumstances.
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...Which brings up another limiting factor which I think I mentioned before. How many can do a combat landing at once? You wouldn't want more that that launched at any one time under normal circumstances.
Hm, judging from the Mini and episodes throughout the show 20 - 30, probably more.
Also, they only used the rear entrance of the port hangar, in a full grown combat situation ( First Cylon War ),
they probably use all 4 ports, because they have more ( at least 160 :D ) birds in the air.
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To believe that 160 (or the 200+ figures that some give) Vipers, plus the other craft, could be routinely stationed aboard such a vessel id nothing other than ridiculous "fanwank"
Snagger man we are arguing about the fighter complement of a make believe warship in outer space. At what point were you under the impression that anybody in this thread was doing anything other than "fanwanking." :P
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Snagger man we are arguing about the fighter complement of a make believe warship in outer space. At what point were you under the impression that anybody in this thread was doing anything other than "fanwanking." :P
I'd imagine the thought process goes something like "it's OK when I do it" :P
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Honestly the galactica can have as many birds as she wants. The limiting factor is pilots. The evidence points to There being 4 squadrons of 20 Vipers + raptors.
80 vipers per pod in operation. Simple really. She might have dozens more that nuggets train in, dozens more marked for repairs, dozens more scrapped for parts.
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umm... at this point 80 per pod plus the birds reserve seem to be the numbers..
Although what's the point of this pre-poll?. Are we gonna see 160 birds at once in Diaspora or perhaps within further show frames?.
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If you read the first post they are trying to figure out how many Vipers to station on the Theseus.
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OK, for those who I upset, my remarks were intended with an "over the pub table "aw, come on guys" tone", not meant to be bolshy or shouty. Such are the limitations of text communications. Anyway, sorry that it came over like that, but I just don't think thatr there's all that much hangar space down there when you factor in the single deck and all the other equipment, stores and facilites that it has to share with the hangar.
Yes, you could store more in the corners of the landing decks, but manning and launching those fighters would take a long time, so it wouldn't be the norm.
So, could G physically take hundreds of fighters - yes. But could seh efficiently operate and maintain such a large fleet - I don't think so. And remember, the Raptors are also stored in the hangar deck, not the landing deck, so that's a lot of space lost. I'll compromise at 120 Vipers fully loaded, spread 60 per side. It doesn't seem much for a ship nearly a mile long, but it was bult to carry a large compliment of Marines (troop ships are big and empty), their shuttles, and all the supplies, specialist crews, fuel, materials and equipment to deploy for years without support, which would take up an awful lot of that space - just the bunking, food halls, rec and fitness facilities and food stores would account for a sizeable chunk of the main hull.
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If you read the first post they are trying to figure out how many Vipers to station on the Theseus.
Hi, I'm new!. Is the Theseus the same thing that the Bolitho?.
Thanksz!
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No. We've not released any photos of the Theseus as yet.
Not deliberately at least. :p
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OK, for those who I upset, my remarks were intended with an "over the pub table "aw, come on guys" tone", not meant to be bolshy or shouty. Such are the limitations of text communications. Anyway, sorry that it came over like that, but I just don't think thatr there's all that much hangar space down there when you factor in the single deck and all the other equipment, stores and facilites that it has to share with the hangar.
Yes, you could store more in the corners of the landing decks, but manning and launching those fighters would take a long time, so it wouldn't be the norm.
So, could G physically take hundreds of fighters - yes. But could seh efficiently operate and maintain such a large fleet - I don't think so. And remember, the Raptors are also stored in the hangar deck, not the landing deck, so that's a lot of space lost. I'll compromise at 120 Vipers fully loaded, spread 60 per side. It doesn't seem much for a ship nearly a mile long, but it was bult to carry a large compliment of Marines (troop ships are big and empty), their shuttles, and all the supplies, specialist crews, fuel, materials and equipment to deploy for years without support, which would take up an awful lot of that space - just the bunking, food halls, rec and fitness facilities and food stores would account for a sizeable chunk of the main hull.
The only thing that could possibly compromise volume requirements are things not usually found on an aircraft carrier. Engines, power supply, life support, and the likes. I don't know the crew complement of normal Battlestars, but if it's proportional to its size, then they'd have a crew of well over 15000, which I doubt is the case. And I'm not sure, but I don't think a large Marine capacity was a priority of a Battlestar. Doubtlessly, they would have a good amount for security and such, and perhaps a bit more, but if it's anything like today's marines, they'd have special ships to use for assaults, which would be used to carry units sized from companies to regiments. But I doubt they'd stick enough marines on it to hamper its ability as a carrier significantly.
Going back to what I said earlier, crew size shouldn't be much of a limiting factor either. Given that we can physically stow over 2000 people and all of their food and stuff into the volume of a modern aircraft carrier, quadruple that volume for storage, and you've got more than plenty of space for over 4000 people. Now let's look at reasonable crew sizes. From what I know of aircraft carriers, a sizeable chunck complement is the air wing and its men. Let's say that we have 1200 people out of every 3000 to manage that, the normal air wing for a modern carrier being about 85 planes. Let's double that figure, and we have just about 170 planes, and just over 4200 people aboard the ship. And assuming that the engines and life support and other subsystems take up the entire center section of a battlestar, this could all easily fit within the two pods, volumetrically. But this is given what modern aircraft carriers are, not highly fictional spaceships. Even with that said, you're not allowed to simply assert stuff without reason.
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I am kinda new to the forums and have been tracking the progress of Diaspora regularly everyday through this forum. I just activated my account today. I think this game is very impressive and can hardly wait for the release. I couldn't help but notice the debate about the Galactica's fighter complement and launch capability. I did some research using Battlestarwiki and I'm sure you all have done your own. I just wanted to bring to the table that Galactica has a complement of 80 Vipers (post Pegasus) and 20+ Raptors (post Pegasus). It is said that before Pegasus she had a complement of 5+ Raptors. She has a crew of 2,641 personnel. she is capeable of launching 40 Vipers at once from the port and starboard launch tubes. Using Zoic's diagram of the Galactica on bsgwiki, I counted 40 launch tubes on one side and when galactica is fully operational can deploy 40 vipers from port and starboard launch tubes. Given the conditions of the combat sortie, one can suggest that before a planned engagement all launch tubes will be loaded minus reserves and raptors. During a defensive engagement any launch pattern under 40 vipers per side is plausible, keeping in mind that some of her fighter complement is already out on patrol sorties. Same case goes with an offensive engagement. Squadrons are divided between 7 viper and 3 Raptor. I don't know how many pilots are divided up among these squads but I'm sure you guys do or will throw your own spin on it. I mean no disrespect or do I think anyone here is stupid. I think this games progress so far is a big tease and can hardly wait for the release. I among other fans wanna be able to have the privilege to frag squads of toasters, ghost a resurrection ship in the black bird (HOOAH), blow the frack out of a baseship, and defend the colonial fleet to the bitter end. I await further updates and the inevitable release of this game and wish you all my best. Good job :D
Chris
Former Navy (Hooyah)
Soon to be Army (Hooah)
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During wartime at the peak of her career, I would say 4 squadrons of 20 per pod. This means that each pod would have 80 fighters with a total count of 160. However, with only the 40 tubes that means that only two sqadrons would launch at a single time.
When galactica was turned into a museum, all but one viper squadron was reassigned, leaving the 20 vipers that croaked during the mini-series. (leaving behind quite a number of reserve fighters, to be sure).
I would say that a squadron's reserves is about 35% (rendering as 6 or 7 for the squad of 20).
So, a Galactica-Type Battlestar, during normal wartime operations should have a total of 208 = ( 8 squads of 20 + reserves).
I would also figure that a Raptor squadron could be put through the same numbers: 1 squadron of 20 with a reserve of 6.
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Bear in mind that the reason we didn't just use the numbers from BattlestarWiki is that they don't quote sources to show where they got those numbers from in the first place.
When the wiki can prove what they say I'm happy to use their numbers. :)
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I think it goes like this
Blue is hangar
green is launch tubes (in five groups of eight)
Dark blur is space that has never been asighned though i asume atleast some of it holds the raptors
(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6681/sugestionbsgzp0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
I asume the captured raider was stored at one of the ends aswell as karas brand new viper and probly the black bird aswell
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:nod: Kudos on the schematic, I couldn't find anything like that. I'm sure that the dev has somthing like that somewhere for a point of reference. and if it's to scale they can pretty much figure out how many birds they can cram in to the space.
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Just wandering the halls on the galactica on the tour on http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/tour/tour.html and noticed there is a white board in the Pilot ready room that shows all the pilots on galactica, it looks like their broken into 4 groups of 14 each with a squad leader, add in the cag and this give a total of 61 vipers, this number seems pretty damn small to me but it just what i can see from the prop.
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Just wandering the halls on the galactica on the tour on http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/tour/tour.html and noticed there is a white board in the Pilot ready room that shows all the pilots on galactica, it looks like their broken into 4 groups of 14 each with a squad leader, add in the cag and this give a total of 61 vipers, this number seems pretty damn small to me but it just what i can see from the prop.
Something new on the boards.. Helo assigned to a Mk VII
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Haven't had time to read the entire thread, so not sure on whether this has been posted on here or not..
(http://tapower.planetannihilation.gamespy.com/FOFViperWingsTravelling1.jpg)
(http://tapower.planetannihilation.gamespy.com/FOFViperWingsTravelling2.jpg)
IMHO, these couple shots taken at the end of the Flight of The Phoenix' show should give us an idea on these numbers. I think is the better reference we got ATM.
Thanks and keep up the good work!
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I counted at least 44 twice. Granted my eyes aren't that great at the moment.
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The best way would be to count the Viper wings on the video screen. These couple pictures I posted are just innacurate chunks of the camera travelling
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Haven't had time to read the entire thread, so not sure on whether this has been posted on here or not..
*shots excised*
IMHO, these couple shots taken at the end of the Flight of The Phoenix' show should give us an idea on these numbers. I think is the better reference we got ATM.
Thanks and keep up the good work!
No, I'm afraid not, Deckard. Ron Moore has said those shots are a VFX goof and contain more Vipers than Galactica actually had. Which is a good thing, because those shots also contain the Blackbird, which wasn't spaceworthy at the time and in any case doesn't have a gun.
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I counted at least 44 twice. Granted my eyes aren't that great at the moment.
me thinks you were drinking :D
maybe there was only 22!!
ah just messing, thats alot of vipers though
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Haven't had time to read the entire thread, so not sure on whether this has been posted on here or not..
*shots excised*
IMHO, these couple shots taken at the end of the Flight of The Phoenix' show should give us an idea on these numbers. I think is the better reference we got ATM.
Thanks and keep up the good work!
No, I'm afraid not, Deckard. Ron Moore has said those shots are a VFX goof and contain more Vipers than Galactica actually had. Which is a good thing, because those shots also contain the Blackbird, which wasn't spaceworthy at the time and in any case doesn't have a gun.
Thanks, General Batuta. I had no idea on that.
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No problem -- I certainly would've been counting off of them otherwise. It was a good idea.
Though I suppose it might have been possible at that time that they still had more ships than pilots.
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Though I suppose it might have been possible at that time that they still had more ships than pilots.
I do seem to recall Starbuck remarking how they have plenty of vipers, but not enough pilots to fill them in the episode where she has to train a bunch of newb pilots.
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Though I suppose it might have been possible at that time that they still had more ships than pilots.
I do seem to recall Starbuck remarking how they have plenty of vipers, but not enough pilots to fill them in the episode where she has to train a bunch of newb pilots.
That was in Season 1, after their sole remaining squadron had been destroyed and while they were trying to fill the seats in the museum piece MkIIs, before they got a load of new Vipers and pilots from the Pegasus, so is not going to be representative of a full load.
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Another related patience's exercise I'd suggest would be:
To count every destroyed Viper/Raptor/Shuttle since the miniseries to the Pegasus' show. :P
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Just had another idea. Is there is a good shot of the dradis when all the friendlies launched.
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I dont know if your just loking for the galactica or Mercury class Battlestars but your assumption of 80 per Fighter bay seams just about right acordign to this site http://www.battlestarmjolnir.com/schamatics.php
Heres what cought my attention because i was playing a mod for HW2 and i wanted to know how much the damn pegasus couled cary and i tought about you guys cause ive ben to this section of the forum erlyer.Any how this is what they say, and i have no clue what theyr sources are but maybe it will help u guys make up your minds on how much your ship can carry viper wise.
"With the increased size of the Battlestar, the Mercury class has a larger fighter wing than the Columbia class. A total of two hundred Vipers can be embarked along with about eight Raptor craft. By the time of the renewed Cylon attacks, the Viper Mark VII was the primary fighter operated by the Colonial Fleet. Like older Battlestars, the Viper compliment was the ship's main weaponry although the Mercury class still carried a smaller fighter compliment than a Cylon Basestar. Although the Mercury class has the ability to land fighters more rapidly, the vessels have less launch tubes which only allow fifty fighters to be launched at one time compared to eighty for the Columbia Class. In support of the fighter squadrons, the Mercury class has the ability to fabricate all components for embarked Viper Mark VII fighters. This equipment is so extensive that the Battlestar can actually build new Viper fighters from raw components. "
Velocity = Acceleration x Time + Initial Velocity
Distance Traveled = Acceleration x _ x Time _ + Initial Velocity x Time
1 G = 32 feet (9.8 m) per second
Model: Colonial Battlestar "Mercury" Class
Class: Battleship / Fleet Carrier
Crew: 2,450 (90 Officers and 2,360 Enlisted)
Troops: 300 marines (15 Officers and 295 Enlisted) and 300 Viper / Raptor pilots
Vehicle Compliment:
200 Viper Starfighters (10 Squadrons of 20)
6 to 8 Raptor Craft
M.W.B. by Location:
Fixed Super Heavy Kinetic Energy Mounts (8, Bow)
Heavy Kinetic Energy Weapon Turrets (30)
Heavy Kinetic Energy Weapons (60, 2 each turret)
Point Defense Kinetic Energy Mounts (322)
Point Defense Kinetic Energy Weapons (644, 2 each mount):
Hanger Bays / Flight Pods (4):
Viper Launch Tubes (50, 25 per Flight Pod):
Main Hanger Decks (4):
CIC:
Engineering Section:
Ion Fusion Engines (8):
[Maneuvering Thrusters (80, 20 Clusters of 4): "
P.S Mercury = The class of the Pegasus
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All of that is made up by someone, and I disagree completely with him. 6to8 raptors? There's at least 20 or so.
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yea liek i sayed im not sure were he took his sources and stuff but i tought id share any how because it might of helped the people to make theyr minds up how ever i to wish theyr was backed up and accurate data on all the current classes of Battlestars. :(Im modifying the numbers of fighters on each battlestars in HW2 to reflect a bit more what wouled really be in the fighter bays how ever every 1 seems to speculate :(.I want to make the battlestars as accurate as posible,wish the person who rote the series wouled of made up some data that every 1 can agree on.
Im opened for the experts outhere to give me theyr opinion ive red this thread and so far to me seams like for the Pegasus anyhow 80 per deck seams right..but then its got 2 decs + 2 smaller ounes under so i dont know if u can fit another 80 in each small ounes unless they use the 2 big top decks for raptors and utilitys and the underside ounes for vipers i dont know.. but it bugs me and i want to know im curius its ben buging me or days.
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who needs to count how many vipers galactica had. count the seats in the briefing room. i'm assuming that is one squadron
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who needs to count how many vipers galactica had. count the seats in the briefing room. i'm assuming that is one squadron
they may have 1 briefing room per squadrons and have like 4 suadrons? who knows on a ship that size theyrs bound to be more than 1 briefing room. or they may have 1 in the series perhaps they got 1 cause 1 of the pofs is used as a museum so they do flight ops from only 1 side of the ship but maybe it has like 2 rooms with less seats than pilots because they dotn expect al lthe pilots aboard to launch at oucne they may do cap or be on rotation and if theyrs a scramble were u have to launch every 1 they might not even brief they might jsut try to get inspace asap and then figure out wtf is going on outside aka an attack on theyr carrier ect i think counting the seats in a breifing room wont realy determine how many fracking vipers are on a fracking space buckette.