Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Rampage on March 18, 2002, 07:53:52 am
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What is the single most important invention used to destroy the Lucifer in Freespace 1?
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Shields, with no doubt, shields. Without those, they wouldn't have made it so far. ;7
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fighter subspace drives..... at the end of the day, these were what saved (in a sense) Sol.
come the last mission, I was on my own, with no shields, or harbringers in me Herc. But I was there ;)
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Subspace tracking. Duh. :p
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Subspace tracking. Duh. :p
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Fighters? :devilidea
Subspace tracking then. :p
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With intersystem drives we would have had nothing capable of intercepting the Lucifer during it's vulnerable period while in subspace. So all the other things would have been for naught.
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It's been said before, but I don't feel like quoting right now, so
Subspace tracking. Duh!
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Fighter drives.
Woo hoo...we can track them. Without those drives it would have been "oh look! We can see it's half-way through the tunnel now! Too bad we have no way of intercepting it before it reaches Earth! Whoops too late! Our bad."
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I think all of them played an important role in destroying it so thats my view.
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Subspace tracking. One weird thing is why didn't Sol send in a destroyer from the other side... it's not possible that there wasn't a fleet guarding Earth at that time.
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They knew how long a destroyer would last against the lucifer. Far better to send ships that can't be shot down with the lucifers beams.
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Originally posted by Styxx
Subspace tracking. One weird thing is why didn't Sol send in a destroyer from the other side... it's not possible that there wasn't a fleet guarding Earth at that time.
That destroyer would have got right in front of the Lucifer's beam cannons.
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Originally posted by HeX
Fighter drives.
Woo hoo...we can track them. Without those drives it would have been "oh look! We can see it's half-way through the tunnel now! Too bad we have no way of intercepting it before it reaches Earth! Whoops too late! Our bad."
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there were destroyers stationed at earth, in fact, all of the 1st Fleet was, but as said before, it would just get blown away by the lucy's beams. What i dont understand is why they didnt send fighters from earth to help out, because at the end we really could have used some more fighter help.
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Originally posted by HeX
Fighter drives.
Woo hoo...we can track them. Without those drives it would have been "oh look! We can see it's half-way through the tunnel now! Too bad we have no way of intercepting it before it reaches Earth! Whoops too late! Our bad."
Except that intersystem drives were simply extensions of available technology.
Subspace tracking was completely new.
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That wasn't the question now was it? ;)
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You would still have been able to use a cruiser (or a dozen) to attack the Lucy, even without fighter drives.
Sure you'd have to make changes, but really, everything needed to blow up a ship in subspace save subspace tracking itself was already in the GTA arsenal.
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Except that:
1) Entering from the Earth direction would line you up with the flux beams
2) If you didn't notice, you had to CATCH UP WITH the Lucifer in time first (you were a long ways off) and then be able to actually do damage. Freespace 1 ships weren't much in the weapons department for anti-cap, especially for taking out reactors located in various places on the hull. I don't think you would be able to launch fighters in subspace unless they carried those drives.
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It has been said: the only thing that was an absolute necessety to destroy the Lucifer was subspace tracking. It was stated that intersystem drives for fighters HAD been avaliable but far too inefficient and expensive. Subspace tracking was the legacy of the Ancients.
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Originally posted by hotsnoj
I think all of them played an important role in destroying it so thats my view.
Everything? Even the Disruptor Advanced?
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I never used the D advanced, it never seemed to work with the ships I wanted, subspace tracking is the one and only thing that alowed us to stop Lucy, without the fighter sized intersystem drives we could have just launched a destroier into subspace and then it could send out the fighters and bombers once in there
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Originally posted by Shrike
Subspace tracking. Duh. :p
Indeed.
HeX, say you had your intersystem drives, but no tracking. So your fighters can catch up with the Lucifer. So your fighters can get into subspace without being carried by a destroyer. But with no subspace tracking, the only opportunity you have to attack the Lucifer will be when it has operational shields.
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I'd say shields, because without them the entire Terran resistance would have had little or no chance.
In close second is subspace tracking, but shields were used by the fighters to escort the technology...shields which were badly needed :nod:
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You have to look at it this way....what would have made it impossible? The only thing they needed was subspace tracking, everything else made it 100x's easier
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Look at the poll! Logic is winning!
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Originally posted by Blue Lion
You have to look at it this way....what would have made it impossible? The only thing they needed was subspace tracking, everything else made it 100x's easier
Indeed. But of course, with Alpha 1 on their side, they'll never give up till they complete all their primary objectives. :D
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[heroic singing voice] "Here I come to save the day!
and prove that crime will never pay!
So, let the trumpet player play for mighty mouse is here today![/heroic singing voice]
Three cheers for that stud Alpha 1!
...:confused:
Now that I think about it... why isn't Alpha 1 on the poll? :lol:
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I see no 'toilet paper' option. Why it there no 'toilet paper' option?
Everyone knows that without toilet paper, the forces of earth and the GTA would surely have failed! :D
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Originally posted by HeX
Fighter drives.
Woo hoo...we can track them. Without those drives it would have been "oh look! We can see it's half-way through the tunnel now! Too bad we have no way of intercepting it before it reaches Earth! Whoops too late! Our bad."
Truth is, using Intrasystem drives isn't going to help them if they can't track the Lucifer. Why? Because there's not just ONE tunnel that can be opened for going through a node.
Truth is, without both, they would have been lost.
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Originally posted by elorran
I see no 'toilet paper' option. Why it there no 'toilet paper' option?
Everyone knows that without toilet paper, the forces of earth and the GTA would surely have failed! :D
If only that was a weapon. ;7
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Originally posted by elorran
I see no 'toilet paper' option. Why it there no 'toilet paper' option?
Everyone knows that without toilet paper, the forces of earth and the GTA would surely have failed! :D
:lol: :lol:
Most unique perspective I've heard all week. :D
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For a glorious moment I thought Setekh was back and then I realised that this was a vote bump :(
There are 2 topics where he had the last comment bumped.
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Basicall, all of them were required. Without intersystem drives for fighters and bombers, the attack force would never have been able attack the Lucy in subspace, without the Ursaand Harbringer (sp?) the reactors would have never been able to be destroyed in time and so on and so forth.
Shield shouldn't really count as they weren't intrusmental in destroying the Lucy. Sure they allowed the GTA and PVN to last long enough to be in a position technologically to defeat the Shivans, but in actually destropying the Lucy they're were about as useful as a chocolate fireguard. 'Though they did allow the attack force to reach the Sol jump node in Delta Sep wioth suffering to much hull damage.
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Some moron is on another vote bumping spree! whee!!!!!!11
You know, next time I'm pissed, I think I will just go through all the forums and vote bump everything I can find... it sounds like fun when you think about it..
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Originally posted by LtNarol
there were destroyers stationed at earth, in fact, all of the 1st Fleet was, but as said before, it would just get blown away by the lucy's beams. What i dont understand is why they didnt send fighters from earth to help out, because at the end we really could have used some more fighter help.
Uh, the only 1st Fleet I know of (and I might be a touch biased here) is the one I invented for my Great War story. We're never told what kind of defenses were in Sol, and in truth there may not have been anything significant there as the rest of the fleet would be on the front lines trying to keep the Shivans away. We really don't know.
If there was, however, it was probably kept close to Earth to try to hold the Shivans and the Lucifer off as long as possible. Better yet, the Orion might have actually been hiding somewhere waiting for the Lucifer to leave the system and nail it from behind in an act of revenge.
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Thread's a billion years old. Oh well.
I guess I ( and everyone else apparently ) assumed there'd be a first fleet in Sol because it just makes sense... :nervous:
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Originally posted by Shrike
Subspace tracking. Duh. :p
:nod::yes:
EDIT:
*reads KT's post*
*notices the date on some of the earlier posts*
Someone must've bumped this while I was on vacation in the Virgin Islands.
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Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
Basicall, all of them were required. Without intersystem drives for fighters and bombers, the attack force would never have been able attack the Lucy in subspace, .
You base that on? Destroyers could of attacked it, a Carrier could of taken the fighters into subspace, intersystem drives on fighters were never required.
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Come on! You all know that with out Alpha1 EVERYONE was doomed!
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Originally posted by Zeronet
You base that on? Destroyers could of attacked it, a Carrier could of taken the fighters into subspace, intersystem drives on fighters were never required.
The problem with this statment is obvious. The Bastion was the closest ship capable of carrying fighters and she was too far behind and couldn't catch up to the Lucifer. The 12 fighters and 4 bombers she launched were the only ones with sufficient speed to catch up and destroy the Lucifers while it was vulnerable in subspace. Why Earth didn't send additional ships is an open ended question that can be answered by the fact that the Luci still had massive forward firepower at her disposal shields or no shields any attacking destroyers and cruisers would have be destroyed before they could bring their weapons to bear.
This also demonstrates how close we were to defeat.
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and i doubt you would have to destroy ALL of the reactors to defeat it.
i mean, one reactor wouldn't be able to power both the sields AND the beams if you get my point.
so a damaged lucy would jump in sol, decimate the 1st fleet but would be destroyed by the sheer numbers of the terrans.
i doubt the shivans would ve a craft 5 times the bloody energy it actually needs.
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Originally posted by Liberator
The problem with this statment is obvious. The Bastion was the closest ship capable of carrying fighters and she was too far behind and couldn't catch up to the Lucifer. The 12 fighters and 4 bombers she launched were the only ones with sufficient speed to catch up and destroy the Lucifers while it was vulnerable in subspace. Why Earth didn't send additional ships is an open ended question that can be answered by the fact that the Luci still had massive forward firepower at her disposal shields or no shields any attacking destroyers and cruisers would have be destroyed before they could bring their weapons to bear.
This also demonstrates how close we were to defeat.
Bull, if Earth: the last surviving homeworld of the alliance was at stake you`d launch EVERYTHING you had even intot he teeth of the lucifer. If you sent in home fleet (who would be useless after the Lucifer jumps into SOl anyway).
Yes many would be destroyed but the others would have a chance to lauch as many fighters as possible (bearing in mind the destroyers ect have "bunnyhopped them into subspace) and even engage once past the beams. In any case that mission does NOT make sense in that they only send in the bastion (who admitiddly was the onlyone capable of catching up) in from behind without esending in any from the front to create a desperate last wall.
this was the FINAL battle with the luifer depending on being destroyed in SS because it was invincible in normal.
Personally I as an Admiral would have lauched all of home fleet, even knowing a large number would get slaughtered before the Luci was taken out, thats the price of defending a homeplanet ladies and gentlemen.
Oh and PS with the shields gone and the beam cannons vulnerable, why not lauch as many bomber wings from home fleet as possible once facing off against the luci to take em out? You`d loose some destroyers but not all of them.
So send in say Six bomber wings to target each beam cannon and another six each to the reactors with covering squads lauching to defend.
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because that would compromise the difficulty and playability of the mission, thus, negating the desprate need to win in the last mission. It wouldn't be much of a uber-final battle if 12 wings of Ursas came in infront of the lucifer followed by 12 wings of Ulysses for support, now would it?
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untill reconstruction, the bastion was the ONLY ship with the subspace tracking... all others would be useless, no matter how close...
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This thread is old, let it die.
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(http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc8.jpg)
Somebody lock this now.
*starts torturing forum members at random to find out who votebumped this topic*
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The age of a thread has nothing to do with the quality of it's content...
The thing with the last wave of Terran defenders from Sol would have been better if more than the Lucifer made it into SS. I don't remember the whole hing, so why was it only the Lucy made it?
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I almost hate to dredge this topic any farther, but it's already here so what the heck... The Lucifer almost always traveled alone; the idea of more than one capital ship in an area at any given time seems to be a strategy not used by either the GTA, VPN, or Shivan forces during FS1. The accompanying fleet was only seen in one mission in FS1, where Alpha 1 takes the captured Dragon into hostile territory to determine enemy strengths (scanning ships mission). And with the Lucifer pretty much invulnerable, it was basically running unchecked through Terran and Vasudan systems. The support ships could perhaps not keep up, or perhaps were engaging the GTA/PVN alliance as a diversion, allowing the invincible Lucifer to destroy all bastions of resistance before a weakness was discovered and exploited.
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I thought the Shivans in FS1 were meanto to be a scouting wing? So I presume they had a limited numer of the really BIG cap ships like the Eva and the Lucifer?
Because the lucifer was invincible it could cruise around with abandon.
And yes we all know WHY you don`t get any help from earth due to the unbalancing issues... That was not the point. This was mroe an issue about the "plot" rather than the game. (although I think having the undefended Lucy against a couple of destoryers would have been cool. I mean the mission dfening the Bastion gainast that second Eva class was hard, you HAD to knock out it`s turrets or it mauled the Bastion at close range.
The undefended lucifer against two sol destroyers one with beams the other without, luci wins, player horror at carnage and renewed attempts to take it out before jumping out. Class.
Oh and Subspace tracking is the most imprtant. They could have used a lighter faster ship or modified transport to jump the needed fighters into subspace. The helios equivilant in FS1 was powerful enough but so could enough typhoon bombs.
So they needed tracking to track the Lucifer and assemble a fleet to stop it. I`m sure they would have done things differently (as in sending in sols fleet) if they didn`t have jump capable fighters
We will however never know.:rolleyes:
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I voted subspace tracking. It is a bit more important than fighter jump drives. The Ursa and the Harbinger had no great part, I think even Medusas with Tsunami are good. Even 5 Tsunamis can inflict more damage than 2 Harbringers.
Shields are particularly useless for the player, it is mind how strong your shield is, every hit gets throught it.
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But it could be better when you must disable the shield reactor and then fly in a fighter bay and destroy the reactor!
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Originally posted by comICEMAN
But it could be better when you must disable the shield reactor and then fly in a fighter bay and destroy the reactor!
Hah!
The lucifers big I`ll grant you but not that big. A final level where yuo bounce around really tight corners getting shot at by the thousands of Shivans on board with their plasma cannons is not my idea of fun I`m afraid.
Plus you got that idea from WCIV:The price of freedom when you kill the Admirals ship.
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Originally posted by comICEMAN
But it could be better when you must disable the shield reactor and then fly in a fighter bay and destroy the reactor!
I don't think it would be better, as you'd have to do it yourself (ai probably wouldn't fly into the ship) but it would definantly be awesome.
Originally posted by comICEMAN
Plus you got that idea from WCIV:The price of freedom when you kill the Admirals ship.
You make that sound as though just because he didn't come up with the idea that it isn't very good.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Solatar
.....(ai probably wouldn't fly into the ship) but it would definantly be awesome.
That's certain. We only have to tell the Ai to fly waypoints. And call an SCP guy to tell the Ai to use that damned afterburner![/b]
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Originally posted by hobnob1978
Plus you got that idea from WCIV:The price of freedom when you kill the Admirals ship.
Wing Commander? We can go back further than that, hasn't anyone seen Return of the Jedi?
On the other hand it was a good idea then and it is a good idea now. Would be great fun.
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Originally posted by Liberator
The problem with this statment is obvious. The Bastion was the closest ship capable of carrying fighters and she was too far behind and couldn't catch up to the Lucifer. The 12 fighters and 4 bombers she launched were the only ones with sufficient speed to catch up and destroy the Lucifers while it was vulnerable in subspace. Why Earth didn't send additional ships is an open ended question that can be answered by the fact that the Luci still had massive forward firepower at her disposal shields or no shields any attacking destroyers and cruisers would have be destroyed before they could bring their weapons to bear.
This also demonstrates how close we were to defeat.
There isn't a problem with my statement *looks to the topic*. It says the MOST important, which would be the subspace tracking, fighter engines are not more important than that, as without fighter engines, it might of still be possible to destroy it using other ships from Earth, but if you take away subspace tracking, there is a 0% chance of destroying it.
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Originally posted by Liberator
.... The 12 fighters and 4 bombers she launched were the only ones with sufficient speed to catch up and destroy the Lucifers while it was vulnerable in subspace. Why Earth didn't send additional ships....
This also demonstrates how close we were to defeat.
Having more friendly fighters in that mission would have made the mission too easy. To balance the difficulty, there would be need for more fighters, and that would probably drop the FPS on machines at the era of FS1 dramatically with the subspace effect going in the background.
I tried to replace the Lucifer's turrets to normal Shivan Turrets(because it has the Shivan Weak Turret in the last mission), and see wonder: It is still almost as easy as the original one. Of course only a few stupid straight-flying Ai died.
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I voted the drive 'cos the large (cruisers and upwards) are too slow to persue the Lucifier (witness the Bastion being left behind). Subspace tracking is good, but the ship could be tracked entering a jump node.Plus the Shivans made it obvious they were headin' for Sol.
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You know, there is only one route to Sol, so I don't see why the Bastion would have needed subspace tracking to follow her in. Or for that matter, why the first fleet couldn't have entered the node from the other side and duked it out in passing. It's a node, not normal space, so it's not like there was any question where the Lucifer was to go. Of course, if the ship entering the node needed SS tracking to enter the exact same vector and to be able to engage in combat, then that would be a different story.
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nm
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Originally posted by StratComm
You know, there is only one route to Sol, so I don't see why the Bastion would have needed subspace tracking to follow her in. Or for that matter, why the first fleet couldn't have entered the node from the other side and duked it out in passing. It's a node, not normal space, so it's not like there was any question where the Lucifer was to go. Of course, if the ship entering the node needed SS tracking to enter the exact same vector and to be able to engage in combat, then that would be a different story.
I always presumed that was why they needed SST. Consider that a ship has to open it`s own "subspace corridor" to get to another starsystem. You need SSt to find the infinitisimal point it opened for it`s own corridor. Without it you generate your own corridor at the node.
Thats why in FS2 when the dashor and the sekhemet (I think that`s what they were called) jump to stop the shivans, even though they jump at the same time they don`t smash into one another due to travelling in their own corridor.
I wonder though, what happens if you fire a beam cannon in SS? I mean, the idea is they were created to attack the lucifer in future battles so it must damage shields which I presume are subspace bubbles (hence why they don`t work in SS). As SS cocks up shields, what happens to a weapon designed to disrupt them?.... if anything.
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I doubt if subspace and shields have any relation. Maybe the energy to generate subspace and shields is too much for a fighter. Also I think beams weapons just cut straight through shields (shields make any diff last time you duked it out with a Leviathian ?).
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Yes. I sustained much less damage. Shields, even if they fail to block a blast, will absorb much of said blast's impact. That's why you have half a chance of surviving an AAAf hit.:D
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I'm more concerned as to what happens when you fly into the wall, do you get sucked in or bounce off?
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Originally posted by Liberator
With intersystem drives we would have had nothing capable of intercepting the Lucifer during it's vulnerable period while in subspace. So all the other things would have been for naught.
Whaddya mean? Just load the Galatea with explosives (no mesons)... The GTA and PVN could've pulled a Bastion Bombing.
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They didn't know it was vulnerable in subspace until it got to Delta Serp, and if they didn't know it was vulnerable, it would be really stupid to sacrifice a destroyer.
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That very same Bastion blew Gamma Draconis-Capella node to hell...
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1) The Bastion and the Galetea are two different ships. :wtf:
2) The Bastion had already been decomishioned by FS2. There's a difference between blindly sacrificing the pride of the fleet and putting something that would have been scrapped anyways to good use.
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They are sister ships... The Galatea was stationed in Vega and Betelguese, the Bastion in Ribos and Ikeya.
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Did I miss something? I don't remember the two being linked in any other way than you were transferred there after the G's demise...
... Not that that has anything to do with what was being discussed...
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
Did I miss something? I don't remember the two being linked in any other way than you were transferred there after the G's demise...
... Not that that has anything to do with what was being discussed...
They were not sister ships, but were asigned their own sectors of pace, but would supplement each other with fighters, I.E.Enter the Dragon, where you can call in Delta, but they are "Currently guarding the Bastion."
Beams have nothing to do with this either.:doubt:
Whaddya mean? Just load the Galatea with explosives (no mesons)... The GTA and PVN could've pulled a Bastion Bombing.
The Galatea had been destroyed on Feburary 28th, while the means to destroy the Lucifer were found a month later, leaving only the Bastion to deal with the threat.
* GTD Bastion
* Sirius System
* 3/29/35
The Lucifer
(next command page)
From the records you retrieved in Altair, we have discovered the means to destroy the Lucifer. As you know, our shield systems do not work in subspace. The same holds true for the Lucifer. More importantly, the records contain the information to enable us to track a capital ship into and inside subspace.
The Bastion was too far away from the lucifer to have made any difference in the assult... And the <12 hours between when this breifing was ordered and the Lucifer was destroyed is far to little time to do anything on a large scale...
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Originally posted by Hippo
Beams have nothing to do with this either.:doubt:
It was only a ponder.. Sorry for bringing it up in this thread. :nervous:
Originally posted by Hippo
The Bastion was too far away from the lucifer to have made any difference in the assult... And the <12 hours between when this breifing was ordered and the Lucifer was destroyed is far to little time to do anything on a large scale...
Apart from sending the design specs on how to track SS tunnels and order the entire home fleet of earth to intercept the Lucifer upon the bastion`s notificiation that it had entered SS.:D
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Yes. I sustained much less damage. Shields, even if they fail to block a blast, will absorb much of said blast's impact. That's why you have half a chance of surviving an AAAf hit.:D
Ahhh but they DO get through and damage your hull.
The weapons they had in FS1 had no chance of getting through the Lucifers Shields. I presume that is why they reverse engineered Beam cannons, to give them a weapon they hoped would damage a lucifer class.
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But they are useful because you don't sustain as much damage. You can survive blasts that can tear your ship to pieces because of shields.
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Actually, FS2 original has a bug that the antifighter beams ignores shields altogether.
FS_open has fixed that.
This means the reason you survive antifighter beams is simply because they aren't that strong and are really meant to whack you so that flak can take you down.
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Originally posted by ChronoReverse
Actually, FS2 original has a bug that the antifighter beams ignores shields altogether.
FS_open has fixed that.
This means the reason you survive antifighter beams is simply because they aren't that strong and are really meant to whack you so that flak can take you down.
Also if beam cannons are uneffective against shields, why then if a Shivan ANTICAP beam hits you you are vaped instantly.
I think [V] coded in a bit of protection from "friendly" ANTICAP beams as would be annoying for a player trying to protect a capship in battle getting vaped by his own side not looking where they`re beam gunning.
"Damn it Actium, watch the friendly fire!"
"Avoid the beam and you wont get hurt Pilot."
"F*** you command, tell em to wait until I get out of the way! Im risking my life here to protect em!":ha:
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I think all of them played an equal part in destroying the lucifer. Without one of them, it wouldn't have been possiable.
Im sure the inventers would like to think it was all their credit.
But I think the invention of pilots and fission engines would be the biggest factor.