Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: AlphaOne on February 07, 2009, 11:13:25 am
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Oki just have to ask this since i cant find a related thread !
What steps do you think the GTVA would take in order to get out of the loss of Capella ? I mean Capella from we have seen was a part of the economical and building powerhouse of the GTVA.
Therefore what would the GTVA do or not do in order to reestablish the lost assets ??
I for one believe they would relocate the refugees into lesser populated sistems that have yet to be fully developed. Following the relocation i believe orders for the local industry would be placed in order to create jobs for the population .
Keep in mind that the GTVA unlike the last war did not loose ALL of its infrastructure ! Or rather most of it ! It does not have to start from scratch .
Sure the loss of an important sistem is a big blow but this time 90% of the GTVA is still in place.
Also while the GTVA lost a lot of warships they are not in the position they were 30+ years ago when they had what 3 or 4 destroyers and a few cruisers ???
this time it is safe to assume about 60-70% of the fleet is there. You might think "Oh then its not such a big loss right ??"
Wrong an army does not have to suffer 60-70% losses to bring about defeat.
also keep in mind what the GTVA lost most of all ! That is destroyers ! They lost a sh** load of them. Sure they still have destroyers left but not on the number they once had . Also keep in mind that they were in the process of scrapping a lot of older designs ! The Orion was one of them.
The destroyers had the ability for force projection that the corvettes and cruisers don have. that means you need to place a lot more warships per sistem .
So i believe that the GTVA will go on a massive expanding or rather development project of the more isolated sistems in order to get more resources.
Also another step they would take is IMO the replenishing and perhaps increasing of the Fleets.
Also i believe that they will place orders for new classes of warships to be introduced to suppliment or replace the designs that did not actually work well as they expected.
Also the mass production of the new classes of fighters will be a priority.
All in all i believe up to 1/3 rd of the refugees would be working on either mining building infrastructure or warships or be recruited in the army to replenish the ranks.
Also another major project that would give a small boost to the economy would be the development and building of a Knossos portal to reopen the Sol node.
All in all i would say that in abut 10 years the GTVA would be even more powerfull then at the sart of all the fighting.
So what is your take on this please elaborate !
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Well, you're probably right.
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Just had a brainstorm today. Ive been going on about the lesser developed systems however is there sufficient infrastructure there to allow the relocation of several million refugees?
I mean sure 300 year time they might be able to build housing a lot faster then today but even so how fast is fast enough !
Also the Increased traffic both commercial and military to and from these systems would be increased perhaps 10 times over.
So that would mean you would need some sort of installation there like an Arcadia class.
always wondered how they build those things ! Do they tow them into place or what ???
All in all the relocation and the subsequent massive investments into infrastructure both commercial and housing could bring about an economic boom. Not to mention the sheer amount of military orders that would be placed i presume about 1 or 2 years after the initial start of the relocation.
Even so fueling and economy like this is not that healthy . In the long run it ends up biting you if you don't increase the flow of res. to and from various systems. Basically increase trade therefore increase economic exchange and growth etc.
Oh yeah FSFreak this has got to be the first time someone agreed so fast . Yet its not like I'm seeking to show that I'm right but rather have an open debate with all possibilities in mind.
No pessimists day of doom worshipers allowed :))))
On the other hand it could all go wrong with massive riots and such . But then again considering the situation i would assume that some sort of martial law would be established with the military supervising just about everything since in the long run they are the ones who are the beneficiaries of the safe and prosperous relocation of the refugees.
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A big hippe age. Baby boomin new pilots.
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I would assume from the massive amounts of people evacuated from Capella (IIRC 200 million-ish) that there is not a draft in place, or less would have been there. If a draft (I believe you said 1/3) were to be instituted, there would more likely be riots than if not. The displaced people would have to find work, and they would find work to the best of their abilities. Shoehorning them into the military or a labor outfit will not help the problem.
Housing is not and will not be a problem. Some houses in this day and age can be constructed in two or three days, especially prefabricated types (i.e. made in a factory).
Why would the traffic increase by that much. Less military ships = less travel, more people = more travel. It evens out.
I could completely see an installation meant to be purely residential. Hmmm, call it the Phthia class.
Destroyers are needed and badly, but mostly ships are just going to be needed to 'show the flag' so to speak. Corvettes and cruisers are good enough for that.
What with the massive building orders, I would give it more like 20-30 years to fully and completely recover. After all, There could be more rebel groups pop up like weeds after the GTVA loses Capella.
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Well i would just like to say that a 20-30 years time of rebuilding seems like too much. I mean its not like the GTVA lost and arm and a leg and another arm and a leg.
Also why drafting is not a solution it can alleviate the problem. Why ?
Think about it the GTVA armed forces are pretty low right about now. They need fresh pilots fresh crews for the ships fresh infantry and such. So i would image a 5-10 million draftees in ALL the GTVA military branches is a good figure.
Also opening up new mining sectors new shypyards and such is gonna take time and a workforce.
I mean you just see the 10.000 crews on a destroyers but that doesnt mean they are permanent crews. we could see something like 3 shifts per ship. Also i believe at least double that is needed for maintenence and other ship related duties.
But i believe most of all we would see a massive influx of ppl into the mining sectors and the various aspects of it.
I mean the GTVA right about now should be hungry for ever more resources to be mined from rare gases to minerals needed for alloys and such.
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Drafts have historically led to bad things. The draft in WW2 was the exception. Everyone then wanted to *ahem* "get back at the dirty Japs". In Vietnam, the draft caused riots and mass emigration. The same thing would happen in FS. Drafts are indiscriminate, but it won't seem like that to the people who are picked. With the Shivans not as big a problem anymore (I can't imagine many of them left in GTVA space), the military isn't going to need to same manpower immediately.
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A lot of propaganda would be put out regarding the recovery of Knossos technology, both to salvage something from the folly of the Gamma Draconis expedition, and to boost morale post-Capella. However, I believe that most actual industrial output would be focused on rebuilding the fleets. Reopening DS-Sol node would not be a priority, but would remain a goal nominally "in progress" for the sake of morale.
In the face of a horrifyingly powerful, renewed Shivan armada, some hardliners might even oppose attempting to open a portal to Sol, altogether; they would see Sol as the last safe place for humanity.
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Well Freespace lore tells us that they were barely holding it together even before the second great war. I imagine that their military would be on the brink of collapsing, after taking all those casualties. Any remaining outer colonies would fall under pirate or warlord control. The GTVA would recall all ships to "inner colonies". Any large corporations they have at that time may consider trying for a play for power and attempt to take control of several regions. Or, in a more optimistic view, corporations might assist in maintaining control over the outer colonies by lending their private ships to help. But there really isn't much that we know about the culture of their society at the time aside from their wars with each other.
As for the refugees, i dont think they would be able to live on those planets happily. Imagine the kinds of hostility that illegal immigrants get now, except spread that planetwide. People are selfish, and they don't want others to take what is they believe to be theirs.
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Well on the matter of others objecting to the refugees relocation one has to take into account that a sistem that has yet to be developed has room for a great deal of improvement both economic and military.
Also the influx of refugees will give rise to the local economic sector as well. As you can imagine that most of them while they did loose theyr homes did not loose their money which i believe would still be in banks or some sort.
Also the single presence of a Orion destroyer going back and forth between 2 or even 3 sistems might not be such a easy thing to overlook. Add to this its cruiser and corvette escort and i believe most terrans would feel safe and a bit terified to try anithing. Especialy now after the loss of Capella.
Also the military might not take such a soft approach to rebeles simply anihilating them before they cause too much of a problem.
Also propaganda can do a lot for the general morale of the ppl.
But there is truth in the fact that the outer colonies might see a recall of most military assets into the inner colonies.
This might leave sistems open for piracy and such but then again that is untill the GTVA can pump out more corvettes and destroyers.
Withing a year 2 at max you could see up to 6 new destroyers and at least double that in corvettes and cruisers taking off into the outer colonies. And this is a pessimistic figure that takes into account resource and monetary constraints.
Also the opening of the Sol sistem might give a huge boost for the morale of the ppl. at least for a few years. By that time the most of the serious problems of relocating the refugees and getting local economies back on track should be over. Sure there might be loose ends to tighten up but still everithing shouldnt be that bad.
It would take another few years to open the SOL node id say from start to finish about 7-10 years max. depending on the ammount of funding given to said project.
Edit1: Could anyone give an estimate of the total amount of ships the GTVA lost and the total number of core colonies,colonies that were still in development and what are considered to be regional powerhouses?
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The Delta Serpentis-Sol jump gate project would likely be the biggest development after the Colossus. A Knossos is larger than a Destroyer by size, and they are trying to replicate technology that they have had just a brief period to observe. Sure, they'll get it done, but I'd reckon it'd take at least 10 years. Sure, it'll boost morale, and add power together. Unless Sol goes 'screw you' and decides that they don't wanna join up, or simply want to rule over the GTVA again.
In that case it would hurt a lot more than help, especially if they had decided this from the get go and had essentially stockpiled a fleet to be ready to go. The GTVA would be like 'oh whut? OHSHI-!' when they open the portal and they're "Join us!" offer gets rejected. If the GTVA was counting on Sol to bolster reconstruction efforts, this would effectively rape them in the ass. Hard. All the money poured into Sol Gate would be wasted, and instead, you have a civil war to fight.
During the construction, there may be dissent from the Vasudans, who also had their homeworld lost, but with no way of 'returning', as well as from Terrans who believe that there are other priorities.
Also, I doubt that they well be able to build 6 destroyers in 2 years. You seem to be underestimating the cost it takes to construct even one. Honestly, rebuilding the damage done to the economy due to the annihilation of what presumably is an important trade lane between Vega and Epsilon Pegasi should come before the military. Building up forces for no apparent reason will actually lead to more rebellions, as those who think they're being neglected will try and fend for themselves and their livelihoods, rather than follow a government that is only interested in bolstering its own military power without addressing the needs of the public. BAM NTFV2.
Obviously, the refugees will be taken to colonize new systems. However, the problem lies in how to divide up the resources. A single Orion for 2-3 systems will obviously not be enough to stamp out piracy - and if only 1 out of every 3 systems is actually patrolled at one time, it's quite easy to simply lay low in a good hiding place when they're there, and operate when the patrols aren't. However, if the majority of the remaining fleets are diverted to assist the refugees, the core systems would likely feel neglected. In addition, there are also the three NTF systems which need to be reintegrated into the GTVA. Essentially every single ship that used to operate in these systems were destroyed, either after defecting to the NTF, or by the NTF. Putting down a rebellion through force does not quell the anger of the people, and resources must be given there as well.
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Paint for the Colossus 3000. Nuff said.
Also, pilots are officers. You don't draft officers. You draft enlisted, ie. grunts.
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The first thing that we assume is that the GTVA runs under a Capitalist society, which we don't know for sure is still in effect. Assuming it is, i would estimate that building a destroyer would be roughly equivalent to the amount it costs to build a Ship today. We could probably estimate all the processes of building a spaceship to that of a naval ship nowadays. This number would probably be highly inaccurate, but its the best that we can do. Also, we don't know what the economic state of the GTVA is, whether or not they would be able to even fund a massive rebuilding of its space fleets. The relocating of capella refugees would cost massive funds as it is without outside sources. Then after finding somewhere to relocate, they would have to fund the colony and help it set up. This is not a quick process and would probably take quite a long time, taking up even more funds. Money doesn't grow on trees, it has to come from somewhere. If the GTVA is NOT capitalist, and can just use whatever resources it wants, then we have to wonder whether or not it HAS the resources to build all this.
As for terrans feeling "safe" and "terrified", i don't see how safe they could feel at this point. They have been shown that the shivans can pretty much come in at any time and blow the crap out of anything the GTVA throws at them. Not to mention the 20+ Sathanas still out there. If anything, they would feel less safe than they did after the first great war. At this point, one would hope that propoganda could swing this in a positive light, but there really isn't much they could do. Capella was completely wasted, and the only way for them to stop the Shivan advance was to blow up one of the Knossos nodes. As for being terrified, they're just as likely to feel that the GTVA is unable to protect them, and join pirates as they are to hide in their homes and hope for the best. Especially when word comes to them that outer systems are being controlled by pirates and the like.
As for reopening the sol node, do we know what level of technology the GTVA is able to achieve? Can they replicate the technology to re-enter sol? If they can, why haven't they started mass producing nodes to better allow economic trade lines? If they could do it, it would also require resources that may or may not be available to them. If they can't, then they would probably need to spend several years researching and developing this technology to something safe and usable, which would also require more resources.
morale is good and all, but it doesn't put food on the table.
The bottom line is that the next few years for the GTVA are looking grim. They're going to be going through tough times most likely worse than our current predicament. Imagine our situation, except the state of California just got destroyed and rendered uninhabitable and all the survivors are in the surrounding states in need of proper housing, work, food, etc. i don't think this will be solved within a few years, ten years would be a more realistic estimate, and my pessimistic side is telling me it may even take longer than that.
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I was basing that 6 destroyers in 2 years off the speed and not the cost with which they can be built !
As for addressing weather or not the GTVA uses a apitalistic form or not im pretty sure that they do not.
I mean would it even be posible for a capitalistic sistem to keep it toghether ? I mean we have many star sistems with many planets and moond and such.
Also we have local gouvernments which are pretty much self sufficient but do take orders from the GTVA high command. This layout seems more like the sort of federation tipe we see in Trek . Not identical by any means but similar in many regards. One major difference is the fact that they get paid or at least they did 32 years ago :P
The existence of money does not mean capitalism in any way.
Also the GTVA DOES have the res. Its pretty much self sufficient . The only reason they were interested in the Nebula was because if offered them a rich and endless supply of rare gasses. which came a lot cheaper then what they had available and at least opne type of gass was not found anywhere else except SOl and the Nebula.
The GTVA DOES have the tech. know how for the building of a SOL Jumpgate.
Also they just got the tech how are they supposed to have built dozens of nodes for trade routes and such ???
I do not contest that fact that it would take some time towards rebuilding and getting back on track. I do believe that the 10 year figure is the more realistic one overall.
I was reffering to steps that could and should be taken in oprder to speed up the process by even a few month's up to a few years.
As for the NTF sistems well theyre pretty much fracked up. They lost every combat ship they had and the GTVA controlls everithing now.
Planetary bombardment was not involved since afte the defeat of the fleets pretty much most everyone surrendered.
And the GTVA does know how to use the Knossos . Sure the understanding the GTVA has of subspace may not be as advanced as that of the ancients or the Shivans yet but then again they went from nothing to tracking ships in subpace over very long distances and in fact several sistems if needed .
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The way I see it, the GTVA would probably fall apart, into unions of partially independant star systems or even planets in a single system. The General Assembly and other structures would probably continue to exist, but would be just as powerfull as the League of Nations was in it's final years of existance.
This decentralized GTVA would probably have some "federal" military commanded by the Security Council and based in the core systems, but everyone else would start building their own ships and fleets. This would lead to higher employment, but higher debts too which would take years to pay.
The star system unions, or 'states' would obviously grow economically at different paces, with the weaker ones being the first to give up their independance and either join a strong neighbor state, or rejoin the GTVA core itself.
I'd also expect freighters and passenger ships being in high demand, and if the GTVA General Assembly is smart, they'd make projects for funding mining ships, new colonies (both in core and 'state' systems) and perhaps assist the local gov's in fighting pirates when needed. The GTVA would turn into something like the EU is today a few years after the semi-independant 'states' appear.
Now judging by the fact the NTF was able to build the Iceni, I'd expect the richer states also building ships up to frigate size and firepower, with everyone making their own bombers, fighters and maybe cruisers. I wouldn't be surprized if the GTVA general assembly would be selling everything from Myrmidons to Leviathans and possibly Orions just to keep the central budget from collapsing. The reformed central army might even have destroyers armed with Meson bomb launchers (and the Meson bombs themselves could have jump drives, making direct destroyer vs destroyer combat a thing of the past), and the basic fighters could be the Erynies, Perseus and Potato in the Terran part of the fleet, all in the thousands.
After a few years, the factions would become more dependant on the central gov. as it would be involved in their growth and safety, and there would be a second Reconstruction.
Further into the future (15-20 years) I'd say there would be tons of stealth fighters and bombers, GTD's and GVD's relying on subspace-capable Meson warheads as the main weapons, with beams being just the last line of defence against enemy meson warheads and Corvettes.
I also see powerfull cruisers based on the Aeolus as escort units, corvettes such as heavier armored Sobeks with a BVas on their nose as direct combat units, and maybe a new Colossus (or 2, or even 3), which could fire salvos of 10 or more Meson warheads every 10 minutes, giving it a theoretical ability to kill off 80 Saths in a single day (given enough ammo supply ships nearby and spotters to TAG the targets)...
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I dont think they built those trade nodes. If they did, then why would blowing up a trade node stop the shivans from advancing? I assume that those nodes were built there by the ancients and were being used by the GTVA to traverse the galaxy. I think that the fact that there were never any mentions of any New nodes being used supports this point. As well as the fact that there were certain nodes that were "too dangerous" to use. If they built the nodes themselves, then why would they place their own nodes in an area that would not allow it to be used? And although one knows how to use something, it does not mean that they know how to build them. Teaching someone to shoot a gun is as simple as loading the cartridge and pulling the trigger but ask somehow how to build one and for the most part you get zippo
As for the question of the governments, i don't think it was ever mentioned in Freespace lore what the governing system was, and because of that i don't think we can figure out what their system was too easily. Maybe some new system that we have yet to develop? Or something older? Shrug. Who knows?
(and the Meson bombs themselves could have jump drives, making direct destroyer vs destroyer combat a thing of the past)
Hmm i would have to wonder whether that would be cost effective though? Although Meson bombs might be more effective in combat, would it be more effective costwise?
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^Most likely not. That was most likely a rhetorical but I answered it anyway.
Some learned people here aren't there?
Possible GTVA Future: After the Great War the GTVA had, very little destroyers, lots of blown up ships and instillations, had no idea of what the shivans had, and the wonder if the Shivans were beaten or would come again. After the Capella Incident, The GTVA had a couple of handfuls of destroyers, lots of perfectly fine if shocked planets, better technology, better knowledge of their foe, an idea of what the shivans "might" send next, and an almost certainty the shivans would come again. People now know that it's very likely more shivans will come and will contribute to the military better
Possible GTVA Future: After the Second Shivan Incursion, everybody panicked at the thought of what the shivans could do, and what they didn't know they could do, and the whole GTVA degenerated into rebellions and got picked off the next time the shivans came along.
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Shipyards. GTVA should invest in upgrading and expanding shipyards. New construction techs.
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About the Meson Bombs- they were too expensive for tactical use, but that was during the SSI. The high price didn't prevent the GTVA from producing over a dozen more/less during FS 2, so they're much quicker to make than GTD's or GVD's. A few years after Capella I'd say there are more Mesons than Corvettes in the fleet, and some SOC GTD's would be mighty units if armed with the warheads I've described a few post earlier in the thread.
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So basically, you start firing corvettes at enemy warships. Sounds fun.
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Well the way i see it the GTVA will either increase its trade and building potential or will do nothing and wait for everithing to collapse !
Also i believe some ppl here mistake what we called new trade and mining nodes as separate from jump nodes. They are one and the same ! Anyway im too tired now to explain just look it up in the wiki.
Also the GTVA lost quite the number of capships meaning mostly destroyers and cruisers . but then again they still have enough destroyers left the only problem is the destroyers they have left are so streched all over GTVA space you would be lucky to see one for weeks perhaps more then 1 month.
I mean you have what 30-40 destroyers total which i got the impresion were not enough by a long shot since they were kinda building up as the NTF rebellion started. Especially the Vasudans which had to replace ALL of they destroyer fleet except perhaps 3 or 4 older models.
The terrans were pretty much at the same stage with the Orion beeing phased out replaced etc. However what they did have and what they were building in massive numbers compared to the destroyer classes were corvettes. The vasudans got a jump start on the terrans and im pretty sure must of had a hell of a lot more !
Remember the corvettes were meant to replace the cruiser completely . So that mean a hell of a lot of corvettes.
So the GTVA is not in such a bad shape. Sure with the loss of what i believe to be about half of the destroyer fleet they had it is a serious blow and would obviously determine a withdraw and the perception of a defeat . But then again lets not forget who did the most damage.
sure the Shivans blew up a start sistem bu the NTF really grinded down the GTVA war machine. I mean you had a total of what 10 or 15 destroyer lost in the war with the NTF alone.
And while im pretty sure the GTVA has the abilliti to build them fast destroyers are not the only things that need building. Also pumping out destroyers in such massive numbers equiping them and so on would put a great strain on the economy . I mean think about it they would have to pump out about 3-4 destroyers every 2 or 3 months . You might say that that is not a lot. But when you are thinking that they have to build corvette develop and build new fighter designs in massive numbers train the crews etc the costs start mounting up really fast . Even so when faced with the shivans its not such a big cost. but they were not facing the shivans they were facing the NTF !
Overall the GTVA stil is in one piece more or less. So getting back on track should not be too hard. even if faced with economic hardship that doesn't mean the whole economic sistem has collapsed. It can mean that they are unable to sped as much as they did before an economic regression of sorts.