Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: watsisname on February 09, 2009, 02:22:13 pm
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7877178.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7877178.stm)
Hoooooly crap. In terms of human life lost these are the worst fires in the country's history, and they're still not letting up. Are any of our Australian HLPers being affected by this?
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****in' nature always pulling stunts like this.
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Oh no, the eternal forces of nature are taking their course again!
Whatever shall we do.
Large scale arson hardly qualifies as a force of nature.
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Large scale arson hardly qualifies as a force of nature.
wat
Are we absolutely sure of this? One throwaway line sounds more like FUD to me. I'll reserve judgement for now.
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Oh man, I just saw this on the news. Stay cool Aussie HLPeople. :cool: :(
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I think that tha Australia's PM said someting about "mass murder".
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I'm not in Australia atm, so I'm getting my news from the folks at home (and I don't know where they're getting their news)
Apparantly they were deliberately lit
Death toll is currently 173 (but is expected to go up today) and more than 3500 homeless
Over 800 homes destroyed
It's apparantly one of the worst fires on record: ABC Story (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/08/2485648.htm)
It's good to see that at least some people are digging deep (referring to the banks here, a number of which have donated $1m): ABC Story (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/10/2486859.htm?section=justin)
It's a bit of a worry. Hope they catch the bastard(s) responsible for this (if it is shown to be arson)
EDIT: The ABC appears to have a lot of information here: ABC Events (http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/bushfires/)
Just seen reports on CNN - they had a satellite image of the area
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Just let me guess: after considerable success in wildfire control near inhabitated areas, the current wildfires happen to be extremely destructive. And they happen around areas that have been historically prone to wildfires.
Am I correct?
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From what I gather a big reason for the tragic death toll is how fast these fires moved. Authorities and locals knew it was going to be bad after the extreme heat Victoria has had the past few weeks, but no one expected anything like this. Normally people have a fair bit of warning and can evacuate or defend their homes with a few garden hoses, but this time they often only had seconds in pitch blackness before gusting walls of flame roared through their whole properties. I doubt all the best fire planning in the world wouldn't have helped most victims in such cases.
Remember that in these fires if the wind is blowing it towards you, the thick black smoke blocks out the sun very quickly, and power would be out too. In the past people have always been encouraged to defend their homes, as that's usually very successful. This time though it just meant more deaths. :(
I think chances are that IF any of these fires were deliberately lit, it was just a few kids being stupid. It's only a matter of time before the blame game starts if it hasn't already, which is just as stupid. All that matters now is helping those who have lost everyone they love and everything they own.
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The blame game has begun: The prime minister has accused arsonists of being mass murders.
Where I live, when we first moved in the local fire brigade sent someone to talk to us about how to survive bushfires. His basic advise was get the hell out early (really early), or bunker down. A fire moves so fast that trying to escape in a car is almost suicide.
I read somewhere that quite a number of people that died were in cars trying to drive away.
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The blame game has begun: The prime minister has accused arsonists of being mass murders.
Where I live, when we first moved in the local fire brigade sent someone to talk to us about how to survive bushfires. His basic advise was get the hell out early (really early), or bunker down. A fire moves so fast that trying to escape in a car is almost suicide.
I read somewhere that quite a number of people that died were in cars trying to drive away.
Correct. We had a similar situation a couple of years ago here in Greece, and the victims were mostly people who tried to escape whithout knowing that there was no escape route, they were already surrounded by the flames.
Let's hope this nightmare will end soon.
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We had a similar situation a couple of years ago here in Greece, and the victims were mostly people who tried to escape whithout knowing that there was no escape route, they were already surrounded by the flames.
What a way to go. :[
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Yeah, there have already been a number of cases where entire towns are wiped off the map by fire. The fire-ridden regions look like a warzone, there's burnt-out cars and rubble everywhere. In the affected areas it's getting worse and worse, but it's almost surreal for those of us living safely within the confines of major cities.
My heart really goes out to those that've lost everything and in some cases everyone they hold dear.
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Fortunately I don't live down there, but really, it's horrible. I mean, a few deaths from wildfires are to be expected, but how this one has taken so many lives in so little time is just crazy.
I remember on the news how they reported that the people in North Queensland, who are flooded, they said that their suffering is nothing compared to what's happening in Victoria.
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Oh man, I just saw this on the news. Stay cool Aussie HLPeople. :cool: :(
Luckily I'm in Perth, But over here t'is big news, EVERYONE's talking about (over here at least), my Digital media teacher even changed our assessment to producing a flyer promoting the school's fundraiser for the disaster.
On a personal opinion, I'm really hoping Australia brings back the death sentence or something, those arsonists really deserve to bite the bullet. Life Imprisonment at the least, and to think, we had a fire less than 2 months ago and that was a deliberately lit one as well.
Fortunately I don't live down there, but really, it's horrible. I mean, a few deaths from wildfires are to be expected, but how this one has taken so many lives in so little time is just crazy.
Exactly, and 173 people, considering the size of the area and the amount of devastated property is a big hit. The temperatures in excess of 40 deg Celsius aren't helping anyone either.
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Life imprisonment without protected status would probably be a more effective punishment than the death penalty. Unless you burned him at the stake.
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Life imprisonment without protected status would probably be a more effective punishment than the death penalty. Unless you burned him at the stake.
Fair enough. I suppose a life of nothing but the four walls of a prison is harsher than an hour of pain or whatever.
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Life imprisonment without protected status would probably be a more effective punishment than the death penalty. Unless you burned him at the stake.
Fair enough. I suppose a life of nothing but the four walls of a prison is harsher than an hour of pain or whatever.
No, they take way too much effort to make the death penalty as painless and quick as possible. Which I think is retarded. But anyway, 173 is a lot of people dead. There's bound to be friends or relatives of the deceased in prison. If he really needs to die, just turn a blind eye on the yard and let the problem take care of itself.
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Life imprisonment without protected status would probably be a more effective punishment than the death penalty. Unless you burned him at the stake.
Fair enough. I suppose a life of nothing but the four walls of a prison is harsher than an hour of pain or whatever.
No, they take way too much effort to make the death penalty as painless and quick as possible. Which I think is retarded. But anyway, 173 is a lot of people dead. There's bound to be friends or relatives of the deceased in prison. If he really needs to die, just turn a blind eye on the yard and let the problem take care of itself.
True, no matter if they don't know anyone in the actual death toll, that ****'s going to die some way or another. If he isn't confined to a single cell for his own safety, and I also heard something about there being more than one arsonist.....
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Like there isn't enough hard times for people in general. For this many people to die and be displaced is a shame. If this is deemed to be arson, if they catch the offenders they need to give them some swift justice. I have only watched the news reports in passing but are they getting air support from other countries to help put out the fires?
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As far as i know, only New Zealand offered thant kind of help. I believe that fire aircrafts are unable to fly long distances, and since Australia is kind of isolated in the map it would be very difficult for air support to be provided in this case.
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"Suspected arsonists here, suspected arsonists there, in Australia, where frequent wildfires a rule, not an exception, especially in the southeast. After a record drought too!"
Don't colour me surprised when no arsonists are ever found.
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True it's been a particularly harsh season, but I wouldn't close the book on the possibility of arson too quickly. After all it has happened before. http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/auspac/12/27/australia.fires.0000/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/auspac/12/27/australia.fires.0000/index.html) But even if they're never found that doesn't mean none of them were intentionally lit. It is an extremely easy thing to get away with just throwing a cigarette in some brush and driving off. I'm not saying that's definitely the case here, but if the authorities/investigators believe it, they must have reason.
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True it's been a particularly harsh season, but I wouldn't close the book on the possibility of arson too quickly. After all it has happened before. http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/auspac/12/27/australia.fires.0000/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/auspac/12/27/australia.fires.0000/index.html) But even if they're never found that doesn't mean none of them were intentionally lit. It is an extremely easy thing to get away with just throwing a cigarette in some brush and driving off. I'm not saying that's definitely the case here, but if the authorities/investigators believe it, they must have reason.
Yes, historically man has been even more important than normal thunderstorms when it comes to wildfires around the world (from criminal negligence to slash-and-burn cultivation etc.) Australian vegetation structure is, however, extremely prone to wildfires, even as far as to make ecologists assume that the current structure is more or less dependent on relatively frequent fire regimes.
South-west Australia is a region of remarkable biological diversity, predominantly shaped by diversity of climate and geomorphology. Fire has also played an important role in shaping biodiversity over at least 2.5 million years and anthropogenic fire has been a part of this environment for tens of thousands of years. Forest ecosystems are fire-maintained, having evolved traits that enable them to persist with, and depend upon a variety of fire regimes. No single regime is optimal for all organisms and communities, but diverse regimes, within ecological limits, are essential for maintaining biodiversity. Bushfires can also threaten people, property and industry so fire management, including proactive use of fire, is necessary to both conserve biodiversity and to reduce the negative impacts of bushfires
Blatantly stolen from an abstract. ScienceDirect (requires access] (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6X-4S0B2MD-5&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=020d951c3c17ca7458ccde24f1077dc9)
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I live just south of those fires, and its absolutly crazy at the moment. whatsisname, these fires are like NOTHING we've ever seen before. The speed and ferocity just cant compare. While the fires in Sydney were bad, they were a campfire compared to this. One arsonist wiped out an entire town, and there was more that came close.
Last I heard the death toll has risen to 186, and that was yesterday, so its probably higher now. A lot of peeps at my school don't have relatives anymore.
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I propose a new penalty for asronists.
you stick a flame thrower up their ass and let it rip!
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My Aunt and Uncle live about 30 miles from the fires, and only got saved when the wind changed direction, but their daughter, my cousin, is trapped between 5 seperate fires at the moment, and there's desperate attempts going on at getting her out of there.
I'm really hoping for a breakthrough soon, it's terrible what is happening there, I'm just glad that VA and Blackwolf are ok.
I heard one of the arsonists was a Firefighter?
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I heard one of the arsonists was a Firefighter?
That was here in Western Australia. Bastard got caught though. Apparantly he enjoyed putting out the fires he started.
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They're almost certainly arson - 2 more fires were lit (definitely deliberately) last night, so there're either dealing with a copycat or a serial arsonist. In either case, there will be people caught and they will be going to gaol.
Incidentally, I'm hoping that this tragedy will force the Victorians (and the entire rest of the country) to re-adopt the controlled burns policy that we do here in WA. It's the only way to effectively prevent fires from spreading in a nation that (as has been mentioned) is biolgically programmed to need fires
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Oh I think the arsonists will get what they deserve. Most of the townspeople are out for blood, and in small rural towns everybody knows everything...
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Oh I think the arsonists will get what they deserve. Most of the townspeople are out for blood, and in small rural towns everybody knows everything...
Yeah, I think they're gonna' have to lock this guy up in a 4 by 4 for his own safety.
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I heard on the news that the Americans are coming over to help with the firefighting work too.
I think that when they rebuild they should make the houses out of concrete or some other material that isn't flammable so they don't burn down next time though.
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Well, concrete is not a very viable material in a country as hot as Australia anyway, it's like living in a fan oven at the best of times, and it's not somewhere that you can install Air Conditioning in every house, as a lot of people couldn't afford it. Wood provides a mixture of affordability and ventilation.
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Oh, true. Well, scratch that idea.
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If the arsonist is lucky he'll need that 4x4. With those big out of control fires he'll most likely end up torching himself.
What about underground housing? It's climate controlled and fire resistant. Not much of a view though.
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What about underground housing? It's climate controlled and fire resistant. Not much of a view though.
We have underground housing here in Kalgoorlie, in WA. However Kalgoorlie is a bloody desert town, and to my knowledge, hardly any trees in sight. However the place is full of rock, thus chipping away at some rocks and sleeping in the hole you just made and making preparations to build you home theater tomorrow becomes a viable idea. However Victoria is the total opposite, and trying to pull your sleeping bag into a whole lot of mulch and trees is not a productive exercise.
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Problem is, if there's a fire overhead, there's nowhere to run to.
The best protection is preventative measures, things like back-burning, even strips of vegetation-free land surrounding inhabited areas, which isn't good for the wildlife, but then, neither is being burned alive. The human toll has been great, but no-ones even daring to think about the ecological toll these fires have taken yet.
It's also looking more and more likely that these blazes wouldn't be half as bad as they were without the human factor, and that's probably the most appalling fact of all :(
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I wonder if this (http://www.theage.com.au/national/islam-group-urges-forest-fire-jihad-20080906-4b53.html?page=-1) has anything to do with it.....
Islam group urges forest fire jihad
* Josh Gordon
* September 7, 2008
AUSTRALIA has been singled out as a target for "forest jihad" by a group of Islamic extremists urging Muslims to deliberately light bushfires as a weapon of terror.
US intelligence channels earlier this year identified a website calling on Muslims in Australia, the US, Europe and Russia to "start forest fires", claiming "scholars have justified chopping down and burning the infidels' forests when they do the same to our lands".
The website, posted by a group called the Al-Ikhlas Islamic Network, argues in Arabic that lighting fires is an effective form of terrorism justified in Islamic law under the "eye for an eye" doctrine.
The posting - which instructs jihadis to remember "forest jihad" in summer months - says fires cause economic damage and pollution, tie up security agencies and can take months to extinguish so that "this terror will haunt them for an extended period of time".
"Imagine if, after all the losses caused by such an event, a jihadist organisation were to claim responsibility for the forest fires," the website says. "You can hardly begin to imagine the level of fear that would take hold of people in the United States, in Europe, in Russia and in Australia."
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That would, quite possibly, be the most stupid attempt at Terror ever devised, since it would not generate fear, it would generate outright fury and would totally alienate the entire Muslim community.
As far as I'm aware, there's been no real hint of any kind of connection between the Bush-fires and any militant activity however, this seems more to be the work of opportunists and simple nut-jobs.
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That would, quite possibly, be the most stupid attempt at Terror ever devised, since it would not generate fear, it would generate outright fury and would totally alienate the entire Muslim community.
As far as I'm aware, there's been no real hint of any kind of connection between the Bush-fires and any militant activity however, this seems more to be the work of opportunists and simple nut-jobs.
Yeah, quite simply, the STUPIDEST thing I have EVER heard a towelhead suggest.
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I'd suggest not using the term 'towel-head', much like radical Christians, radical Muslims are in the minority, and that is a derogatory term that affects ALL Muslims, regardless of their opinion of the actions of the radicals.
Not to mention the fact that 'Towelhead' was originally a derogatory term for Sikh turbans and has somehow migrated over to define a faith that, outside of a mosque, don't actually wear headgear of any description in most cases.
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I'd suggest not using the term 'towel-head', much like radical Christians, radical Muslims are in the minority, and that is a derogatory term that affects ALL Muslims, regardless of their opinion of the actions of the radicals.
Not to mention the fact that 'Towelhead' was originally a derogatory term for Sikh turbans and has somehow migrated over to define a faith that, outside of a mosque, don't actually wear headgear of any description in most cases.
I had an inkling after the Prince Harry youtube incident I should steer away from towelhead/raghead. Your case is very true, point taken :D Out of curiosity, are there any Muslims on HLP? I'll go first and say im Buddhist/Christian (Buddhist parents, Christian upbringing/school)
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That would, quite possibly, be the most stupid attempt at Terror ever devised, since it would not generate fear, it would generate outright fury and would totally alienate the entire Muslim community.
As far as I'm aware, there's been no real hint of any kind of connection between the Bush-fires and any militant activity however, this seems more to be the work of opportunists and simple nut-jobs.
Well the investigation into whether or not it was arson has only begun, hasn't it? I don't think the possibility of islamic reverse eco-terrorism should be discounted entirely.
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That would, quite possibly, be the most stupid attempt at Terror ever devised, since it would not generate fear, it would generate outright fury and would totally alienate the entire Muslim community.
As far as I'm aware, there's been no real hint of any kind of connection between the Bush-fires and any militant activity however, this seems more to be the work of opportunists and simple nut-jobs.
Well the investigation into whether or not it was arson has only begun, hasn't it? I don't think the possibility of islamic reverse eco-terrorism should be discounted entirely.
IMO it's unlikely, we have plenty of pyros around here even without the radicals running around. They've supposedly found several 'ignition' sites in the area as welll but that fact that a human being lit a blaze that basically slaughtered other human beings just makes me want to hit something.
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If it were terrorists, they'd've claimed responsibility by now. Besides, it'd on;y scare the people who're already living in bushfire prone areas, who already live with the threat of fire ( athreat that can be mitigated down massively by effective forrest management).
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Plus, lighting wildfires seems a little too undirected for Islamic terrorists.
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I wonder if this (http://www.theage.com.au/national/islam-group-urges-forest-fire-jihad-20080906-4b53.html?page=-1) has anything to do with it.....
Islam group urges forest fire jihad
* Josh Gordon
* September 7, 2008
AUSTRALIA has been singled out as a target for "forest jihad" by a group of Islamic extremists urging Muslims to deliberately light bushfires as a weapon of terror.
US intelligence channels earlier this year identified a website calling on Muslims in Australia, the US, Europe and Russia to "start forest fires", claiming "scholars have justified chopping down and burning the infidels' forests when they do the same to our lands".
The website, posted by a group called the Al-Ikhlas Islamic Network, argues in Arabic that lighting fires is an effective form of terrorism justified in Islamic law under the "eye for an eye" doctrine.
The posting - which instructs jihadis to remember "forest jihad" in summer months - says fires cause economic damage and pollution, tie up security agencies and can take months to extinguish so that "this terror will haunt them for an extended period of time".
"Imagine if, after all the losses caused by such an event, a jihadist organisation were to claim responsibility for the forest fires," the website says. "You can hardly begin to imagine the level of fear that would take hold of people in the United States, in Europe, in Russia and in Australia."
what the ****
is this a joke or a bunch of really desperate wannabes
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I'd suggest not using the term 'towel-head', much like radical Christians, radical Muslims are in the minority, and that is a derogatory term that affects ALL Muslims, regardless of their opinion of the actions of the radicals.
Not to mention the fact that 'Towelhead' was originally a derogatory term for Sikh turbans and has somehow migrated over to define a faith that, outside of a mosque, don't actually wear headgear of any description in most cases.
I had an inkling after the Prince Harry youtube incident I should steer away from towelhead/raghead. Your case is very true, point taken :D Out of curiosity, are there any Muslims on HLP? I'll go first and say im Buddhist/Christian (Buddhist parents, Christian upbringing/school)
Turambar's a muzzie. He killed that baby sheep in NovemberishDecember, remember?
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If the arsonist is lucky he'll need that 4x4. With those big out of control fires he'll most likely end up torching himself.
What about underground housing? It's climate controlled and fire resistant. Not much of a view though.
Theres talk of making underground, community fire bunkers. A couple of people had them, and they all survived when their house above them burned to the ground.
Heres a fun fact...some of the fires were moving at 120km/h.. 0_=
On another note, i'm going to be scanning some pics and articles out of the newpaper. Some of the pics, while horrifying, are amazing. I'll put them up after school, in about 5-6 hours.
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Looks like they've caugth at least one of the ****ers responsible for this.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/751609/police-closing-in-on-arsonists-nixon
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Bah got delayed by a last minute appointment. However that's done now, so the scans are uploading and should be done in a half hour maybe.
EDIT: Darn you slow upload speed!!!! 45mins to an hour now...
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If the arsonist is lucky he'll need that 4x4. With those big out of control fires he'll most likely end up torching himself.
What about underground housing? It's climate controlled and fire resistant. Not much of a view though.
Theres talk of making underground, community fire bunkers. A couple of people had them, and they all survived when their house above them burned to the ground.
Heres a fun fact...some of the fires went 120km/h.. 0_=
It seems like every summer we have a drought and wildfires in the US. Last year we even had them here on the east coast, which is odd, seeing as NC isn't really dry and foresty to the east part... It's swampy.
Being underneath a fire must be incredibly loud, but wow. How do they keep from getting cooked in there? And where do they get air from? They couldn't have vents anywhere near by since the fire would eat up all the oxygen...
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I dunno about air, but the heat from fires doesn't penetrate very far underground, thus the reasoning behind underground bunkers.
With the speed these fires were going, the bunkers would have had oxygen from vents most of the time, and only a short while without it while the fire burned overhead. I would think there would be more than enough oxygen trapped in the bunker to allow the occupants to breathe while the fire passed.
'Course this is only guessing, but it seems reasonable enough to me.
Also if the idea of community fire bunkers do go ahead, I'm sure they will put in oxygen recycling or storage facilities in there.
EDIT: Oh and the vents can be closed, preventing toxic gasses from seeping in while the fire is overhead.
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O.o
So when you say the fires were going 120km/h you mean they were moving 120km/h?? I figured you just meant spreading, pretty much. :\
Well, of course it's got to be a mix of the two. Fire would have to better hotter'n hell to just incinerate houses and move on like that...
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True, but still not hot enough to penetrate that far underground. Earth has a massive dampening effect on fires. That's why the helicopters sometimes drop dirt instead of water.
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Well, earth doesn't burn. It dries out, but it's still there to smother the fire.
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Ok posted the pics.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,60948.0.html
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Well, earth doesn't burn. It dries out, but it's still there to smother the fire.
That depends on what kind of earth. Here in the northwest, we have a lot of hills full of peat, that burns quite well. I've heard of fires that firefighters have thought they had extinguished only to find it had been burning underground and to spring back up out of the ground hundreds of yards away.
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They finally got one. I'm interested to see how this plays out.
Speaking of which, setting forest fires would be a terrible blow to any country. It does take a huge amount of energy, time and resources to combat and it's very easy to start.
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Well, peat is special. It's not even really dirt... It's like plant material that isn't decomposed or whatever. (ew)
Wildfires, earthquakes, tornadoes... We can only predict and prevent so much.
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But you can plug up volcanoes with gum.
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implied "etc"
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But you can plug up volcanoes with gum.
No, with cement. (Read: Railroad Tycoon 2)
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Fires can be largely prevented, much more so than the other things you mentioned.
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Fires can be largely prevented, much more so than the other things you mentioned.
True, but the temperature over here isn't helping.
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Fires can be largely prevented, much more so than the other things you mentioned.
Preventing fires often means allowing the smaller fires to burn. In an area that burns regularly preventing all fires means that the ones which will eventually spark up will be much more immensive (more fuel).
There are actually some quite tragic examples of this.
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That's what I meant. Controlled burms and such. Victoria doesn't do them AFAIK.
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That's what I meant. Controlled burms and such. Victoria doesn't do them AFAIK.
...
Victoria DOES do backburning, I ought to know I live there..
We also make lots of firebreaks and such.
Although I think these fires were caused by not *enough* backburning, but we still do it.
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I used to live in Victoria near where some of the fires are now. We used to see large plumes of smoke and the "red" sun from earlier fires, i.e. pre 2008.
Down in Tassie, there actually hasn't been many really huge fires this year, so we sent about 100 fire fighters to Vic./NSW.
The amount of support for the victims is massive; the monetary donations about $75 000 000, along with warehouses packed with all manner of "essential" items.
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Hey great the court named a suspect so the police had to move him to a secret location
great job, court, great job, excellent, what an excellent idea
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The fires have subsided and the new death toll is in. It's holding steady at 209 now.
But we're about to have another very hot day this week, so there's every possiblity they could start up again.
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Gday all - this is my first post back from my 'retirement'.
I am being affected by it - not directly to myself, but my uncle who died in the fire trying to save his home. From what my cousin told me, who was able to get out, my uncle realised he couldn't stop the fires so ran inside to get some things, but the flames caught onto the house and he never came out of the house. :(
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Gday all - this is my first post back from my 'retirement'.
I am being affected by it - not directly to myself, but my uncle who died in the fire trying to save his home. From what my cousin told me, who was able to get out, my uncle realised he couldn't stop the fires so ran inside to get some things, but the flames caught onto the house and he never came out of the house. :(
Good god, this is still going on? Sorry for your loss... :(
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It doesn't look like it will stop until they catch whoever is doing it. Someone is DELIBERATELY lighting them. They've caught and charged 1 man with Arson causing death, but more of them are still coming up.
There's someone still doing this. :sigh:
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It doesn't look like it will stop until they catch whoever is doing it. Someone is DELIBERATELY lighting them. They've caught and charged 1 man with Arson causing death, but more of them are still coming up.
There's someone still doing this. :sigh:
They should shoot the bastard on sight. I cannot believe this **** is still going on.