Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => The Babylon Project => Topic started by: captain-custard on February 23, 2009, 12:41:19 pm
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First I'd just like to say this whole thing hasn't been easy for any of us. I wish it would have never happened but it did. We can only hope that in the end we did the right thing for the community.
After careful condensation, many discussions, and much debate we have come to the following decisions. First and most important TBP 3.4b will remain final as was always agreed upon. This promise we will not break. There will be no new versions of TBP. It along with the 3.6.9 exes that were included with it are the final version.
That said we will also be following the last decision of the TBP team on what should be done with the project once 3.4 was released. We are therefore handing the future of the project over to the public. TBP has always been about the community, it was a tool set for players and FREDders to have fun with. As agreed to buy the team a new public forum will be setup for this purpose. Keep in mind that there is no longer a TBP team and that all development from here on out is not official TBP content. Multiplayer development for 3.6.10 and future builds will also continue through public development, meaning if there are people who want to mod TBP to work with newer builds, nobody prevents them from doing it. This has never been a discussion about mods allowed or not. The game has this possibility. You can make good use of it. But there will never be any official update.
As for Vid and myself we will be staying on as moderators and to handle the day to day operations of the forums. Due to the nature of multiplayer these day to day operations will include validating content for TBP. Do not confuse validated content with official content. They are two entirely different things. The only difference between validated content and regular user made content is that multiplayer will recognize validated content when the code supports it. Not everyone's stuff will become validated content but if the existing rules thread is followed then content from multiple sources both validated and not can be used together. More on this when the forum is up and we have had time to work out the details.
Due to being advised that the merging of forums is a bad idea because it would mix up the events we unfortunately cannot follow this part of the TBP teams wishes. In the near future we will be archiving all private forums. There will no longer be any private TBP forums.
If you wish to use any content from TBP in other projects you will need to obtain permission from the creators of the specific content. We cannot give permission as that content belongs to the creators and as far as we know was only provided to be used in TBP..
So in summary TBP will continue through you the fans.
As for the other project leaders/moderator/whatever out there take note of what has transpired here and learn from it.
thanks fubar for the info and if anyone needs a hand bug testing in multiplayer then ill gladly lend a hand(joystick)
to all the mods , freddders, admin etc of tbp
thanks a lot for all your hard work and all of the fun i and many otheres have had
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meaning if there are people who want to mod TBP to work with newer builds, nobody prevents them from doing it.
I have withdrawn permission for my work to be used in any new version, or update of TBP. Especially the 3.6.10 update as you are fully aware. Thus, this would be stealing and anyone who does this is a thief. It is not in your place to override this decision Fubar so don't pretend you can. My work, is my work. What's more I expect you to post this comment under your announcement as it is directly relevant.
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meaning if there are people who want to mod TBP to work with newer builds, nobody prevents them from doing it.
I have withdrawn permission for my work to be used in any new version, or update of TBP. Especially the 3.6.10 update as you are fully aware. Thus, this would be stealing and anyone who does this is a thief. It is not in your place to override this decision Fubar so don't pretend you can. My work, is my work. What's more I expect you to post this comment under your announcement as it is directly relevant.
i personally understood that if ( i ever get it together to understand how to fred etc) i want to use any material then i would ask which i think was fully covered in this part of the announcement by Fubar
If you wish to use any content from TBP in other projects you will need to obtain permission from the creators of the specific content. We cannot give permission as that content belongs to the creators and as far as we know was only provided to be used in TBP..
i find it sad that it has come down to the situation that basically one person is stopping the multiplayer developement side of TBP ( this is not an attempt at flaming) but to use the word thief is very strong , this conversion was given to the public with no restrictions mentioned in any of the 3.4b, final versions... so using someones work comes down to being polite and asking .... if the answer is no then it is up to each individual to accept there moral responsability and weigh this against " the greater good" i understand your objections and wish this had never got to where we are today.
if you want to discuss this further then please pm me ...
ps
sorry for re-opening a can of worms
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Seems to me that what the B5 fanbase needs then, is a list of the models that IP made, or was involved in, and what his tasks were on those models, since, if the fans want to continue using the game in multiplayer, those will have to be the first to go.
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i personally understood that if ( i ever get it together to understand how to fred etc) i want to use any material then i would ask which i think was fully covered in this part of the announcement by Fubar
Fubar is not the team leader. Neither is Vidmaster. I was the team leader when the game was finalised and the team disbanded last year. He cannot speak on my behalf as a team member. He also cannot speak on my behalf as someone whose work he is inviting others to steal. He cannot speak on behalf of the other team members past whose work he is inviting others to steal. Hard Light Productions need to step in unless they wish to continue their site to continue it's slide into moral bankrupcy.
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You can't steal what was freely given to the community. But if anyone feels this is stealing they can just deleted TBP from their hard drive and move on.
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And as a global FYI, after extensive discussion among the TBP project leadership, the HLP leadership, and the SCP rank-and-file (plus a smattering of discussion elsewhere) it was agreed that IPAndrews has neither the legal, nor the personal, nor the moral authority to demand removal of anything that TBP has released.
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He cannot speak on behalf of the other team members past whose work he is inviting others to steal.
Nor can you.
And that's the whole problem. You've set yourself up as representing the whole of the TBP development team and we have no ones word other than your own that this is true.
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Who the hell do you think you are telling me where I can and cannot give permission for my work to be used? :mad: Welcome to morally bankrupt Hard Light Productions. Den of thieves.
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time out?
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And that's the whole problem. You've set yourself up as representing the whole of the TBP development team and we have no ones word other than your own that this is true.
You're the worst thief of the lot. You should know better.
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Hang on, isn't this The Babylon Project, kind of like, based on Babylon 5 ships, which are the intellectual property of Foundation Imaging?
I think the word 'theft' is being thrown around entirely too freely in here.
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not to mention Warner Brothers :rolleyes:
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Unless IPA developed TBP with the explicit and publicly known idea that his work was not to be used in any end-user modifications, I agree with the statement that he has no right to withdraw permission now that TBP is done.
If, either before joining or during development, he publicly stated that his work was not to be used, then in addition to not knowing why the heck he joined the team, it would be perfectly reasonable to not use his work, but in his waiting until TBP was finished, he has forfeited that right.
If he had done it before, then the rest of the TBP team would have the time and ability to find someone to replace him, someone that wouldn't mind having his/her work used by the end-user, but now he's robbed the TBP of a completed project, something I would think is pretty disrespectful in itself, especially when he is the project leader.
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And that's the whole problem. You've set yourself up as representing the whole of the TBP development team and we have no ones word other than your own that this is true.
You're the worst thief of the lot. You should know better.
Oh?
Okay, if you really want to get into this. Since I don't like making assumptions, I'm going to ask a few questions I already think I know the answer to.
1) Exactly who was on the TBP team when the decision to disband was taken? I was under the impression it was just you.
2) Exactly which models are you claiming can't be edited? Just the ones you made 100% yourself or are you including anything you edited? From your earlier posts you definitely seem to be claiming the latter.
3) Who exactly on the TBP team can you prove you represent besides yourself?
OH BTW this is providing a very good example of why any mods or TCs still under development really need to look at this thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,61174.0.html) very carefully.
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Personally I love the skewed logic that the burden of proof is somehow on me to prove that I and my team don't want their work stolen. Fantastic. Oh wait... you don't actually care either way. :rolleyes: None of you have any morals whatsoever and I want you all to know just how little I think of you all right now.
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not to mention Warner Brothers :rolleyes:
Yup Warner Bros have the story, FI used to have the ships, not sure who has them now, I have a suspicion either WB bought the meshes, or Paramount, who did the special effect for series 3 onwards still have them.
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Yes we stole from Warner brothers. That makes it okay for you to steal from me? Two wrongs make a right. I love that one. Seriously you guys are so pathetic. If you want to behave like thieves admit you're thieves and deal with it.
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Yes we stole from Warner brothers. That makes it okay for you to steal from me? Two wrongs make a right. I love that one. Seriously you guys are so pathetic. If you want to behave like thieves admit you're thieves and deal with it.
Why exactly don't you want people using your work again? With everyone always arguing, it just seems like you revoked permission purely out of spite. Assuming that it actually isn't out of spite, why?
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Personally I love the skewed logic that the burden of proof is somehow on me to prove that I and my team don't want their work stolen. Fantastic. Oh wait... you don't actually care either way. :rolleyes: None of you have any morals whatsoever and I want you all to know just how little I think of you all right now.
No the burden is on you to prove that TBP wasn't released as a gift. You are claiming that using TBP assets to make mods of TBP is somehow theft and more importantly you have repeatedly claimed that the old team agree with you. I haven't seen proof of that and I can think of 3 or 4 TBP members (not FUBAR or Vidmaster either) who have claimed quite the opposite. So yeah, the burden is on you.
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The game was released with the possibility to mod. Fact.
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My work is my work. Fact.
Use it without permission you are stealing. Fact.
You are desperately looking for ways to appease your own consciences because you have all abandoned your morals in order to get your own way. Fact.
Debating this with you thieves is a waste of time. Fact.
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your work is your work Fact
i agree
but at no point does your work mention that it cannot be used by third parties Fact
this game is freely availible and as i mentioned before there are no restrictions mentioned within the game Fact
your attitude of its my ball now im going home to sulk is completely unreasonable Fact
i will now learn to fred and steal your work Fact
one very pissed of TBP fan Fact
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Use it without permission you are stealing. Fact.
You gave permission for mods when 3.4 Final was released. Fact.
You never claimed at the time you reserved the right to withdraw permission. Fact.
This is more about proving you're right than about the fans. Opinion.
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I suspect it's certainly doing a great deal to convince the fans to do exactly what he doesn't want them to do. After all, it's them that he is accusing of being thieves, since they would be in control of the update.
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Debating this with you ... is a waste of time. Fact.
I quite agree.
IPAndrews is now banned for 30 days for the following causes:
--Unjustified flaming of HLP admins, TBP members, SCP members, and innocent bystanders;
--Reckless sabotage of a project of which he is a member;
--Refusal to negotiate or accept mediation;
--Refusal to acknowledge the authority of the project leaders he appointed;
--And generally poisoning the atmosphere of HLP.
He's lucky he only escaped with a 30-day ban; some people, both admins and non-admins, wanted to make it permanent. BlackDove was monkeyed for 30 days for far less. Inquisitor was right; trying to negotiate with a prima-donna accomplishes nothing and only hurts the project.
Generally admins have the authority to ban someone unilaterally, but because of the number of issues raised and the potential conflicts of interest, this one was subject to a long discussion and an implicit majority vote. Between admin action and the TBP announcement, we now consider the matter resolved.
I'd split the thread, but it seems like a lost cause, having jumped the rails with the second post. If y'all want to discuss the announcement, I recommend starting a new thread, but I will leave this one open.
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All this discussion is crazy...
OFFTOPIC suggestion:
I don't know if it is possible but I would force a HLP membership rule with the following text (remember English is not my mother language ;)):
+ ALWAYS remember you are entering a free fan made site.
+ Because of this, you can enjoy, modify or use any of the posted content without any other restriction than not earning money with it. Also by joining to HLP, you EXPLICITLY allow any other people to use your own posted contents with the same rule.
+ Nevertheless, politeness MUST be worshiped. Although not "legally" needed, please, ask the author permission if you want to use any content in a different way from his original intention (you're going to edit it, you are going to create a new mod/campaign/mission, you are going to fix or patch it, or whatever...). And also, don't hide its origin, NEVER say that it's yours when it isn't.
If possible I would even force ALL the active members to renew their accounts with this explicit rule. Maybe in this way, this discussion won't be repeated any more
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That is what karajorma is trying to accomplish with this thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,61174.0.html). :)
An agreement will not be forced on any project, but in light of what happened with BTRL and TBP, it might make sense for certain projects to adopt that agreement or something like it.
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We'll most likely have something like it for the fan made mods as well.
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The genie is out of the bottle.
If, in his wisdom, IPA decides that its a good idea to play a legal card, he really should talk to a lawyer first. Chances are good he'd be in just as much warm water. Nobody needs that kind of headache.
People who contribute to projects only to rescind their "license" later for what seem to be petty reasons tend not to get to far in any future development efforts without a lot of apologies. I don't run HLP projects, but I would think twice about engaging with IPA regardless of whatever talent he may have.
Nobody needs that kind of headache.
I'd suggest the first order of business for any fans be that they rip out and replace anything with this persons name on it and replace it with something explicitly freely given. Nobody needs that kind of headache. Remove all traces. Persona non gratis. No sense in tainting the product any longer than necessary. Nobody's work is that good.
Prima donna developers need to know they are replaceable. So get about the business of replacing him.
Damn shame that something that got so much good press, that SO MANY people worked on, ends up in a cloud of sophomoric antics on the part of its erstwhile caretaker. That's the definition of conceited.
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Wow. I really just want to bonk your heads together. Especially IPAndrews. I wish i knew what set this off but i'm sure it wouldn't make any more sense. Like most other FSers i will miss TBP and wish it hadn't ended this way. what i truly hope is that nothing legal comes of this and that no one takes this as inspiration to pull this kind of stunt again. I know i'm a little late here but i just wanted to put in my two cents.
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i will miss TBP and wish it hadn't ended this way
TBP isn't going away. That's kinda what this whole thing was about. Read the stickied announcement.
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What I find most amusing about the end result of all this is the notion that one would be able to rescind content that one previously released to the general public. I mean...it's the friggin' Internet. If you host a file at a visible, public website, anyone and everyone can download it and do whatever the hell they want with it, and there's not a damn thing you can do to stop them. It's like the warning on that ancient Welcome to the Internet page about posting your picture online. If you don't want your creation used by someone, don't post it to begin with.
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You know I tried that point over and over. It was actually even discussed before Vid and I took over as moderators. The rules thread was the eventual result. It was a way to try to organize the chaos of modding that the final release would bring. My logic. It's out there people are going to mod it. Let's try to make it beneficial and easy for everyone to use while keeping 3.4b final.
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We'll most likely have something like it for the fan made mods as well.
Well in fact, I think that there are ONLY fan made mods...
I mean, WCS, Diaspora, SoL, FSPort, Inferno or whatever "official" teams are just a bunch of guys who say "let's join efforts for making a mod about our beloved xxxxxx ". And then, they just put a team label on top. You can call it "official" if you want, but it really seems just "organized" unofficialness.
So I really think it's just the same than just one guy (let's say Darius' BP) making it.
In all the cases, everyone modding FS2 will be using previously released stuff (more or less amount but always some amount of it):
+ Just the mod world idea. Nobody here has invented WCS, FS, SoL, Star Wars universes...
+ The game engine...
+ Previous mission/ship/tables drafts...
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I'm talking specifically for the new TBP public development.
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I think there are a few things lost on IPAndrews.
IPAndrews often said "My work".
But it isn't just his work. It's the work of the team.
IPA was the leader, but still others also worked on TBP, so it isn't just "his work".
And let's not forget all the stuff he used to make "his work" came from the SCP and volition in the first place.
Using someone else's stuff, changing it and then calling it his own work... THAT is theft.
...I'll refrain from setting a "fact" behind anything. Just putting the word fact behind a sentence doesn't make it any more true than it is without it.
And please don't take the following comment as flame or diss, I'm dead serious about this and I only say this because I hope to help a person I grew to respect over the years.
IPA you should visit a psychatrist. From where I am it looks like you are suffering from a severe depression and most people can't get out of that without help (I know that from experiance in my own family).
I hope I didn't go too far with this comment, but as I said I am actually hoping to help, even though it is just a faint hope.
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Guys,
IPAndrews just got emotional. It will pass. I am sure of it.
In his attempts to prove his point, ie keep TBP on 3.6.9 so that it will be easy for the newcomers to play with, he lost his way.
He then made a statement in the heat of the moment and is keeping with it.
I agree with the decision of keeping the 3.4b downloads easily available and the Child forum for future development.
This is a solution that accomodates IP Andrews fears whilst leaves the door open for fans to play around the further development of TBP;
a. New users have an easily accessible stable build
b. Fans can build on 3.6.10
It is normal that when someone gets passionate on something, he gets emotional. I have that defect myself.
Permanent blocking should never be considered in a fan community. We should welcome the prodigal sons with arms wide open.
After all, he was just trying to help... then something went awfully wrong... **** happens....
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First of all he isn't permabanned. Second, read Goober's post again. Whatever his reasons may be, none of them excuse this kind of behavior. Getting emotional is understandable. Not calming down and not accepting attempts to be calmed down isn't.
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Prima donna developers need to know they are replaceable. So get about the business of replacing him.
Actually is impossible... Not in this case ... IP work is irreplaceable...
You have to know something about TBP team dynamics... Team ... such a big work
PM 101.. primadonna are not replaceble ... u can do it... but it cost ya... can u handle the cost?
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"How this will end?"
"In fire...."
Too bad it had to end like this but at least there's some hope for TBP.
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They are replaceable. I have not yet met one in the last 20 years of academic and professional work whose loss destroyed a project if the rest of the team was competent.
Its always more costly to keep them around.
Of course, YMMV
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just because someone 'touches' an asset does not make that asset his. IP can and eventually probably will be replaced. but even if he isn't it does not matter for it is a team project and he does not have exclusive ownership of anything.
If he really gets uppity about it all that will do is provide encouragement for his work to be erased and replaced. oh, and it also means that he can (if he has any intelligence at all) not put this project down as a reference for actual professional work, because, well professionals don't do this and it's a big flashing neon sign that reads 'don't hire me', it'd be like putting down 'CEO of Enron'.
and I believe this episode proves that it's never a good idea to let a primadonna last any longer than their first outburst, the longer they stay the more crap they can get involved with and use as leverage.
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EDIT: I take it all back....apparently I haven't heard everything yet....
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EDIT: I shall also take back my clarification. And I'll close this thread so there's no misunderstanding. People have more or less vented already.
Any further discussion should take place in the thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,61186.0.html) for that purpose in the Public Development forum.