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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: darkdaej on February 28, 2009, 10:05:48 am

Title: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: darkdaej on February 28, 2009, 10:05:48 am
I don't know exactly where to post this because it does not qualify as a technical issue or a story-based question.

I was just wondering...  I was doing that suicide mission (Into the lion's den i believe it's called) and since after 4 minutes everything worthwhile had been fragged, i simply waited by the node and started scanning.  I was looking at Knossos 3 and noticed that when the juggernaughts arrive, no warp effect is seen when you view from target.  I then targetted and Juggernaughts and realised that there are no juggernaughts in this mission, only placeholders which show the juggernaughts in the target view in bottom-left, but the "ships" themselves are triangles.

I was just wondering...  is it actually POSSIBLE to have 9 Jugs without having the game crash?  I used FRED2(made missions for fun, but never figured out how SEXP's work for beams) before the SCP and i know it did crash when you put in too many capships, but I kinda expected SCP to be able to display those 9 juggers.

Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Snail on February 28, 2009, 10:08:11 am
It's possible, yeah, but since I you're never going to get close enough to those 9 guys to actually see them I think it'd be entirely unnecessary.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: darkdaej on February 28, 2009, 10:16:31 am
It's possible, yeah, but since I you're never going to get close enough to those 9 guys to actually see them I think it'd be entirely unnecessary.

Maybe so, but since one can simply target them and press the "view from target" button to see them...I guess they should be put up in there.

Also, Now this may be because i cleared the three shivan comm nodes very quickly (in under 4 minutes) as well as the fighter wings, I never saw the rakshasa and moloch warp in(i think also a cain or lilith warped in on occasion).  Does anyone know if those two capships are still in the mission?  I know for a fact there were some cruisers to wipe out in the retail version...
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Snail on February 28, 2009, 10:20:51 am
Maybe so, but since one can simply target them and press the "view from target" button to see them...I guess they should be put up in there.
Well only the very observant player is going to do that. For the vast majority most people wouldn't even give those Saths a second thought. Besides there's no sense in the performance loss that'd cause just so that a few people can have the satisfaction of knowing there are 9 6km juggernauts 100,000 meters away. :blah:

Also, Now this may be because i cleared the three shivan comm nodes very quickly (in under 4 minutes) as well as the fighter wings, I never saw the rakshasa and moloch warp in(i think also a cain or lilith warped in on occasion).  Does anyone know if those two capships are still in the mission?  I know for a fact there were some cruisers to wipe out in the retail version...

Huh.

The missions shouldn't have been changed that much. In fact they should have been practically identical. I'm at a loss as to why none of these other ships are present. :wtf:

As I recall there should be quite a few Rakshasas to blow up. Not sure I saw a Moloch or any Cains/Liliths on my various play throughs of it.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: darkdaej on February 28, 2009, 10:27:26 am
I'll try playing through it again, if I still have issues with that mission i'll record my game, upload it and open a thread in the support section.  All i had to do in that mission was dodge the sathanas , kill the 4-5 fighter wings (with the 3 instanteneous-warp-in-when-you-kill-the-last-one-of-the-previous-wing Aquarius Nahemas), destroy the 3 comm nodes and then i waited for 8 mins for a fighter wing to spawn(astaroths), another minute for the nebiros to arrive and then warp out 45 seconds later.

I know the rakshasas aren't in map upon mission start but actually warp in, but they NEVER showed up last time around.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Snail on February 28, 2009, 10:38:40 am
Probably you didn't trigger something. Probably caused by the order in which you pursued your objectives.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Mongoose on February 28, 2009, 12:32:05 pm
Any half-decent computer from the past five years or so could presumably easily handle having that many Sathanas juggernauts in-mission, especially considering the extremely low-poly LODs that would be displayed at that vast distance.  However, this wasn't necessarily the case when FS2 was first released, and so :v: came up with the "SJD Juggernaut" model in order to save people some framerate.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Pred the Penguin on February 28, 2009, 06:46:51 pm
I remember getting pretty confused when I saw the triangles. I was thinking "Where the hell are all the Sathanas? O_o"
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: ssmit132 on February 28, 2009, 08:15:00 pm
I was just wondering...  is it actually POSSIBLE to have 9 Jugs without having the game crash?  I used FRED2(made missions for fun, but never figured out how SEXP's work for beams) before the SCP and i know it did crash when you put in too many capships, but I kinda expected SCP to be able to display those 9 juggers.
I did that once. Just a plain replacement of the SJDs. But they got stuck on the Knossos and warped into each other and it was all a big mess.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: blowfish on March 01, 2009, 12:18:56 am
Yeah.  The mission isn't designed for full scale juggernauts to be warping in.  Though it wouldn't be too hard to make it... :nervous:
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Dilmah G on March 06, 2009, 03:48:11 am
Yeah.  The mission isn't designed for full scale juggernauts to be warping in.  Though it wouldn't be too hard to make it... :nervous:

No point thought
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Jeff Vader on March 06, 2009, 03:52:02 am
Indeed. If someone wanted to remake the mission to actually have the Saths in there, he might as well remake the last Capella missions so that there'd be over 80 Saths at the direction of the sun.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Dilmah G on March 06, 2009, 03:52:53 am
Indeed. If someone wanted to remake the mission to actually have the Saths in there, he might as well remake the last Capella missions so that there'd be over 80 Saths at the direction of the sun.

Yeah, that mission was awesome by the way
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: S-99 on March 06, 2009, 04:29:56 am
That mission totally made it worth while for going on the second soc loop.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Dilmah G on March 06, 2009, 05:25:12 am
That mission totally made it worth while for going on the second soc loop.

When Lightning falls was a good one as well, made me feel "SOC". Cannon Fest with some brains required= SOC
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Enigmatic Entity on March 06, 2009, 06:10:26 am
It's possible, yeah, but since I you're never going to get close enough to those 9 guys to actually see them I think it'd be entirely unnecessary.

Including ~ + I and 64X time compressor?  :drevil: Oh yeah, and those Nahema bombers warp in 1000m away no matter where you go. I've fired upon the SJD class before - they accelerate, and do a wierd little curvy flight path. When you exterminate them using ~ + K *10, you get rocked by the Sathanas-sized explosion.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Dilmah G on March 06, 2009, 06:13:04 am
It's possible, yeah, but since I you're never going to get close enough to those 9 guys to actually see them I think it'd be entirely unnecessary.

Including ~ + I and 64X time compressor?  :drevil: Oh yeah, and those Nahema bombers warp in 1000m away no matter where you go. I've fired upon the SJD class before - they accelerate, and do a wierd little curvy flight path. When you exterminate them using ~ + K *10, you get rocked by the Sathanas-sized explosion.

I had never, ever, thought of that
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Mobius on March 08, 2009, 03:57:49 am
Quote
Sathani

It's...


...Sathanes!
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: blowfish on March 08, 2009, 04:06:40 am
NO ONE GIVES A FRAK

:nervous:
Title: Re: The 9 Sathanasases in the binary system
Post by: Jeff Vader on March 08, 2009, 04:13:08 am
...Sathanes![/mobius]
There is an island next to Africa.
That island is called Madagaskar.
In that island, there is a village called Mahajanga.
In Mahajanga, there lives a tribe called Kolime.
The Kolime tribe has a totem pole in the center of their village.
On top of that totem pole, there is a rock.
And even that rock is interested.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 08, 2009, 05:47:58 am
Wouldn't it be Sathanases?
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Mobius on March 08, 2009, 06:07:40 am
Sathanas is Greek, not English.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Snail on March 08, 2009, 06:12:43 am
Sathanas is Greek, not English.
It's a name, however.

And names don't follow conjugations.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Mobius on March 08, 2009, 06:17:26 am
In FS it's not used as a proper name, though...
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Snail on March 08, 2009, 06:18:03 am
In FS it's not used as a proper name, though...
Oh?
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Mobius on March 08, 2009, 06:22:49 am
It's not a name like the others. As ship class name, it should could be conjugated.

Also, the Greek plural form is incredibly better than it's supposed English counterpart.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Galemp on March 08, 2009, 06:23:42 am
They've only ever been pluralized as Sathanas Juggernauts.

And a big benefit of having the SJD Saths is that none of them have weapons, turrets, or subsystems of any kind, which cuts down on loading times and memory usage. As has been mentioned they appear around Capella as well, so it was probably a good investment on :v:'s part.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Snail on March 08, 2009, 06:24:18 am
So ship names aren't proper nouns suddenly?

Futt the whuck?
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Mobius on March 08, 2009, 06:28:04 am
As long as people use terms like "Sathanas Juggernauts" it's ok but when it comes to venturing in the creation of absurd plural forms like Sathani or Sathanases then it's much better to use the Greek word.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Snail on March 08, 2009, 06:32:17 am
That is, in your opinion.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Mobius on March 08, 2009, 06:35:01 am
If you want to read weird misspellings, go ahead. :)
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 08, 2009, 07:39:40 am
I think I'll go with Sathanas Juggernauts....
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Mobius on March 08, 2009, 07:41:21 am
Which is correct. You may check the Wiki for additional explanations. :)
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: S-99 on March 08, 2009, 07:42:19 am
Sathani. There you go. The plural of sathanas. Or, there is the equivalent sathanasuses. We speak english here so we don't care about greek pluralization.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 08, 2009, 07:49:47 am
That's what make speakers of English so annoying sometimes. They always think their way is right. Then again, I do that too sometimes :nervous:, but it's something I try to prevent.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Jeff Vader on March 08, 2009, 07:52:20 am
That's what make speakers of English so annoying sometimes. They always think their way is right.
But the point is that the game is in English. Made by people speaking (American) English. There is little reason to be concerned with Greek grammar.

Incidentally, no one has complained about the fact that Mjöllnir is misspelled as Mjolnir. Why? Because no one gives a ****.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Enigmatic Entity on March 08, 2009, 07:52:41 am
Quote
Sathani

It's...


...Sathanes!


NO ONE GIVES A FRAK

:nervous:

Just 'cause they're big doesn't mean you have to shout...

I don't actually mind - I am able to realise that "Sathani", "Sathanes", "Sathanases", "Sathanasuses", etc. mean the same thing.

Just on a side note, I want to try something: (actually, I'd better make it smaller, or else big Sathanas like objects will come bearing down on this small and insignificant entity...)


Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 08, 2009, 08:04:00 am
Incidentally, no one has complained about the fact that Mjöllnir is misspelled as Mjolnir. Why? Because no one gives a ****.
That's actually been bothering me for awhile...

But I guess you're right, no ones really bothered enough by it to press for changes in-game. Even the non-Americans that make up a significant part of this community...
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: S-99 on March 08, 2009, 08:09:37 am
I speak english i care about my own and others grammar that speaks my language. You do the same with whatever you're language is here. Sort of like how your language goes, you have your own rules for pluralizations as does my language. I will follow what my language calls for. Sathani or sathanuses is sufficient for english. I don't care how annoying it is. English is a very choppy sounding language, that's how it was from day one.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Mobius on March 08, 2009, 08:11:17 am
Incidentally, no one has complained about the fact that Mjöllnir is misspelled as Mjolnir. Why? Because no one gives a ****.

Mjolnir is a widely accepted form because the original one has been progressively phased out. FreeSpace is not the only game using an alternate form of "Mjöllnir".

Sathanas is a completely different matter since it's more a neologism that anything else. The original Greek form is "Satanas", without the "h". The English "Satan" comes straight from it. What we're dealing with is some sort of hybrid and not actually a pure/assimilated English word. It was only a way to make "Satanas" cooler, and a very good way I may add.

:v: never used the form Sathani or Sathanes and circumvented the plural form issue by using the term "Sathanas Juggernaut", which is a very good option. When it comes to a normal plural form, however, people are well advised to use "Sathanes" because it's grammatically correct.

On a side note, what's the problem in taking distance from English grammar? The game is in English but it's clearly specified in FreeSpace that Terran populations maintain their old traditions and accents. Why wouldn't a Greek word be acceptable?


I don't actually mind - I am able to realise that "Sathani", "Sathanes", "Sathanases", "Sathanasuses", etc. mean the same thing.

As player you're free to do it but please forgive me for paying attention on names under a FREDding point of view. I don't think a campaign showing countless ways to misspell the plural form of Sathanas would demonstrate a high level of text editing.

That's actually been bothering me for awhile...

But I guess you're right, no ones really bothered enough by it to press for changes in-game. Even the non-Americans that make up a significant part of this community...

That's weird since Mjöllnir is not an American English word. Why would the "non-Americans" complain in the first place?

I speak english i care about my own and others grammar that speaks my language. You do the same with whatever you're language is here. Sort of like how your language goes, you have your own rules for pluralizations as does my language. I will follow what my language calls for. Sathani or sathanuses is sufficient for english. I don't care how annoying it is. English is a very choppy sounding language, that's how it was from day one.

Read above. Why would you apply your grammar to a word that has nothing to do with it? You should rather adapt.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Jeff Vader on March 08, 2009, 08:23:52 am
Mjolnir is a widely accepted form because the original one has been progressively phased out.
No doubt. I know Scandinavia is insignificant from an Italian point of view, but we still write it as "Mjöllnir".

That's weird since Mjöllnir is not an American English word. Why would the "non-Americans" complain in the first place?
:wtf:

Why would you apply your grammar to a word that has nothing to do with it? You should rather adapt.[/mobius]
You should adapt. Everyone else is OK with the varying plural forms of Sathanas. You're the only one who keeps weeping about it.

Conform or be butt-****ed.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Mobius on March 08, 2009, 08:33:06 am
No doubt. I know Scandinavia is insignificant from an Italian point of view, but we still write it as "Mjöllnir".

What does Italy have to do with it?

Oh, and are you forgetting the fact that most western languages, especially English, have no "ö"? How do you expect people to use the original Scandinavian spelling?


You should adapt. Everyone else is OK with the varying plural forms of Sathanas. You're the only one who keeps weeping about it.

Conform or be butt-****ed.

You don't get the point.

FreeSpace's English is to reflect multiple Terran cultures and not only the modern British/American ones. What's fun in denying canon evidence? Any plural form would be a neologism.

Using "Sathanas Juggernauts" is ok, possibly the best option, but creating weird plural forms like "Sathani" and "Sathaneses" from nothing and then pretend them to be correct is a bad thing.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 08, 2009, 08:34:29 am
I don't what the point of all this bickering is...
I was just trying to say that it would better of us to respect other languages instead of just dismissing.
But sometimes (actually most of the time) it's hard to send those feelings over the web.
Seeing as the original topic is already dead, I think we should drop this.
But if you want to continue then by all means start a new thread in General Discussion.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Mobius on March 08, 2009, 08:37:31 am
I was just trying to say that it would better of us to respect other languages instead of just dismissing.

Let one of those languages be Greek, since it's much more complex than English. ;)

Well, the subject has been discussed enough. Let's end the OT now. :)
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: GTSVA on March 08, 2009, 08:52:36 am
The juggies were like a kajillion clicks awai lol.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: S-99 on March 08, 2009, 09:21:47 am
Well i would apply my grammar to a word that has nothing to do with it because i speak english which means i will apply english grammar to words even if they aren't english words. It's just a given.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Mobius on March 08, 2009, 10:21:54 am
Just don't pretend to adapt words like Sathanas to your needs. :v: has circumvented the problem, I don't see why you shouldn't.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Snail on March 08, 2009, 11:43:00 am
I can't wait for one of these:

(http://www.hard-light.net/forums/Themes/HLP_oldRC2/images/icons/quick_lock.gif)

To appear next to this thread's name.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Droid803 on March 08, 2009, 12:14:15 pm
"Mjöllnir" is not used in FreeSpace because FS doesn't support the character "ö", I would presume, so :v: just went with the anglicized version or something...
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Nuclear1 on March 08, 2009, 02:47:43 pm
Quote
"NOBODY EXPECTS THE GRAMMAR INQUISITION! Our chief weapon is...nevermind that, to business!

The plural of the Greek word Sathanas is Sathanes. Got that? Good. AWWWAAYYYY!"

"Well, that was different, but not surprising..."
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: S-99 on March 08, 2009, 06:52:41 pm
NOBODY expects a speaker of a language to adopt a foreign language's pluralization system if they don't speak this foreign language and especially already has a system for plurals with their own language.
Quote
The plural of the Greek word Sathanas is Sathanes. Got that? Good. AWWWAAYYYY!"
The plural and the singular word sound exactly the same, or sathanes is pronounced sathanees?
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: GTSVA on March 08, 2009, 06:55:31 pm
So then...imagine 9 Sathanes dukin it out against each other! Cool. OR! Better still! Someone could renact the Battle of Deneb! (Out of topic I know)  :D
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: S-99 on March 08, 2009, 07:03:32 pm
So it is pronounced sathanees then. That totally makes a group of them sound like pussies :lol:
It'd make a pilot think sathanees were panties.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: GTSVA on March 08, 2009, 08:45:28 pm
lol
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 08, 2009, 09:47:50 pm
Sathanases
Sathani
Sathanae

Which one was it again?
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: blowfish on March 08, 2009, 09:49:51 pm
Sathanas Juggernauts :P
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Droid803 on March 08, 2009, 09:52:17 pm
Saths

So much shorter.
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 08, 2009, 10:04:54 pm
Sathanas Juggernauts :P

:yes:

How could I forget?
Title: Re: The 9 Sathani in the binary system
Post by: Mongoose on March 08, 2009, 10:05:51 pm
And another perfectly serviceable thread gets destroyed thanks to mindless nitpicking.  Well-played, folks.