Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: terran_emperor on February 28, 2009, 03:23:08 pm
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Here's my more serious Shivan Theory...
The shivans are locked in perpetual warfare with an as of yet unseen enemy. This was has raged for countless millenia, possibly even millions of years. Neither side is able to get an advantage over the other as they are both equally matched. So shivan stratagist hit upon an extremely unorthodox idea - a race capable of defeating the shivans would also be capable of defeating their Enemy. Though this plan would amost certainly result in mutual destruction of both the Shivans and their enemy, the Shivan High Command didn't care as long as the Enemy was destroyed. So they set about grooming the younger races until one emerges that is capable of taking down the Shivans and thus also the Enemy.
Stage 1
THese Candidate Races (who lived well behind the Shivan Lines) must meet serval criteria:
1) The Race must be spacefaring (obviously)
2) The Race must be subspace capable
3) THe race must be agressive, warlike and capable of sustaining a long term intersteller war (mimimum duration 3 Shivan stellar cycle (roughly 15 years))
If Stage 1 criteria are met, then the race is moved to:
Stage 2
The candidate race is subjected to an intelligence test.
A Lucifer Planet Killer with task force attacks the candidate race and begins systematic destruction of the race. However, the Lucifer has a design flaw. If the race is intelligent and/or resourseful enough they will find the flaw and be able to use this flaw to repell the attack.
The Lucifer's flaw is 2-fold
1) It is powered by 5 reletivly vunerable Reactors
2) It's shields do not function in Subspace (though this is a natural flaw as Subspace and Shield Tech are incompatible
Stage 3
After stage 2 is complete, the candidate race is then given time to rebuild and conduct R&D. after a certain amount of time, the Shivans attack the candidate race with a more advanced fleet to see what has been learned.
Stage 4
If the Candidate race is advanced enough to be able to repel this more advanced fleet, then a Sathanas is dispatched to engage the Race.
Stage 5
If the Candidate race is capable of destroying a Sathanas, then a Sathanas Sun-Buster fleet is dispatched to destroy one of the major stars of the Candidate Race's domain. THe purpose of this is a Reaction test to see how the Candidate Race deals with the incursion.
Stage 6 and beyond.
Details unknown. But it continues untill one of the Candidate races advances enough to become the Shivan's final solution
THe Ancients met the stage 1 criteria and were moved to stage two. The Ancients discovered the solution but were exterminated before they could take advantage of it
in the Earth year 2335, the Terrans and Vasudans were moved to stage 2. AT first they were just another two candidate races albeit slightly more challenging ones. What caught the Shivan's attention was that the Terrans and Vasudans previously, blood enemies, quickly ceased hostilities and allied themselves against the invasion - this was something that had never happened before. Together they quickly reverse engineered shivan sensors and shields and developed new weapons capable of penetrating the shields of Shivan fighters. Though the Shivan's rendered Vasuda Prime uninhabitable, the Allies continued to develop.
First they developed miniturized intersystem jump-drives for fighters, then they discovered the design flaw in the Lucifers reactors. However, the Allies were unable to take advantage of it untill they discovered the Remains of an Ancient City. Here they found out how to track an object into subspace and take advantage in both the Lucifers flaws to destroy it -
As the Lucifer was destroyed at the very last minute, the explosion destroyed the Jump nodes in Sol, cutting of Earth from the rest of the galaxy. Shivan high command decided that Sol was out of the Game and would be ignored unless it reconnected to its colonies.
Despite the loss of both Homeworlds in one way or another, the Allies were able to repel the shivan attack and thus were moved to Stage 3.
However, when the NTF discovered the knossos portal and encountered the Shivans, they triggered the Attack phase of STage 3 early. Left with little choise, the Ravana task force began its work. THey discovered that Allies had developed beam Weaponry amongst other things.
Because the Ravana Task force was discovered early, it was forced to initiate the attack phase of stage 3 before it reached full size. Thus as the Ravana Task force was not at full strength, it was decimated quite quickly and as one can expect the GTVA were moved to stage 4 way ahead of schedule.
The GTVA barely managed to stop the Sathanas managed to pass stage 5 with a Pyrrhic victory - sealing the Sun-Buster Fleet in Capella at the cost of many of their best ships
While this was going on, the shivans were very supprised to find one Terran ship contact them. Bosch and his Senior Staff were taken away for reasons and purposes unknown (I suspect modification like B5's vorlons did with Lyta or like what the Shadows did for Technomages) and the rest of the crew were killed. The reason being was that direct contact prior to Final Stage was forbiddon.
Following the Capella Debacle, Shivan High Command ordered a withdrawal from GTVA Space for an unspecified amount of time. The GTVA would use this time to develop Knossos and ETAK tech and further develop it Weapons Tech and understanding of Shivan Tech.
The Ultimate outcome of the Shivan's plan is unknown. The GTVA showed promise, buy may just be one of many species at that level. Ultimatly, The GTVA may not even end up being the Shivan's Final Solution but only a stepping stone.
My basis for this theory
1) :v: 's comments that the Shivans were symptoms of a bigger problem
2) Neither Terrans, Vasudans or the Ancients encountered the Shivans till after they had discovered
3) Everytime the Terrans and Vasudan's have encountered the Shivans, their tech has advanced more. -
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Very well thought out, if a little unlikely. It would make a good basis for a campaign though.
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Very good theory, indeed. Although, from a purely narrative standpoint, you're veering into Humans (and Vasudans) are special (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial) territory. But never mind me, i just like to nag ;)
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Very good theory, indeed. Although, from a purely narrative standpoint, you're veering into Humans (and Vasudans) are special (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial) territory. But never mind me, i just like to nag ;)
I never said we were special. Just that that we were interesting. The Shivans had never been double teamed before. Previously they came across an Advanced Race like the ancients on the warpath.
Whoops noticed i missed out a bit -[sorted]-
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I never said we were special. Just that that we were interesting. The Shivans had never been double teamed before. Previously they came across an Advanced Race like the ancients on the warpath.
Whoops noticed i missed out a bit -[sorted]-
Yes, but thats exactly what Humans Are Special is about. By your theory, the Shivans would only appear after or during a war between two or more spacefaring cultures. I find it a bit hard to believe that none of them ever developed the "Enemy of my Enemy is my friend"-Meme. But again, thats just something I would have done differently, if i had formulated that theory, and is only based on my storytelling sensibilities.
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Interesting idea. It certainly fits with the themes that are expanded upon in both games.
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Very good theory, indeed. Although, from a purely narrative standpoint, you're veering into Humans (and Vasudans) are special (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial) territory. But never mind me, i just like to nag ;)
Who knows? Humanity could have been wiped out before the final stage. :lol:
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If you simply look at the great war, see this...
Terrans penetrated shields (I think first, not sure)
Terrans built shields (see above)
Vasudans lost home planet, similar to ancient's "we can't deliver the hurt".
Terrans found lucy flaws
Vasudans learnt how to penetrate lucy's shields
Terrans destroyed lucy.
Now imagine one race trying to do that.
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Terrans penetrated shields (I think first, not sure)
Dang straight. There's a bonus objective (at least on the FS Port release) to destroy one of the fighters on the first mission with shivans.
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Spammed furies rule!!
But i meant the avenger.
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I never said we were special. Just that that we were interesting. The Shivans had never been double teamed before. Previously they came across an Advanced Race like the ancients on the warpath.
Whoops noticed i missed out a bit -[sorted]-
Yes, but thats exactly what Humans Are Special is about. By your theory, the Shivans would only appear after or during a war between two or more spacefaring cultures. I find it a bit hard to believe that none of them ever developed the "Enemy of my Enemy is my friend"-Meme. But again, thats just something I would have done differently, if i had formulated that theory, and is only based on my storytelling sensibilities.
Well personally, I always viewed the ancients as a slaver race of sorts...
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Very good theory, indeed. Although, from a purely narrative standpoint, you're veering into Humans (and Vasudans) are special (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial) territory. But never mind me, i just like to nag ;)
Who knows? Humanity could have been wiped out before the final stage. :lol:
THats my entire point. Humans aren't special in the Grand Scheme of things. We are just interesting. but ultimately we are just another stepping.
If you simply look at the great war, see this...
Terrans penetrated shields (I think first, not sure)
Terrans built shields (see above)
Vasudans lost home planet, similar to ancient's "we can't deliver the hurt".
Terrans found lucy flaws
Vasudans learnt how to penetrate lucy's shields
Terrans destroyed lucy.
Now imagine one race trying to do that.
I agree that one race could have done all that but i think if it had just have been the Terrans it would have been over quickly. If anything and ill be Brutally honest, the Vasudans' presence extended the game time
*Terrans depetrated shields first with only point blank shots from Ballistic missiles. Im sure that realistically the Vasudans must have taken out at least one fighter the same way before the Treaty was signed
*Terrans adapted Shivan sensors and the Avenger to penetrate shields
*Shields were a joint venture (Lab Scene), in fact im sure that Miniture-Inter System Jump drives and the Subspace tracker were also joint-developments
*Terrans also lost their homeworld just in a different way to the Zods.
*There were Vasudan fighters in the final show down with the lucifer so - joint venture.
*Project Colossus - Joint Venture
*Zods developed beams first. (Not counting the Hades)
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*Zods developed beams first. (Not counting the Hades)
Really? I thought that it was the Terrans that came up with them first. I.E. in Homesick. Even though HS is non-canon.
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I'm sure i read some where that it was the Zods who pioneered Beam weapon research...
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Melikes :yes:
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It's an interesting idea and nicely tied into known history of FS universe. I see one problem with the Shivan plan though; to find the solution they need to fight on two fronts, against races about as capable as they are. This could get them exterminated by a race lesser than themselves or the unseen enemy.
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My idea about this "bigger problem":
The Shivans are just it's slaves, free labor type of dudes, cannon fodder. Some of them could be fighting some war for the "bigger problem".
Others could be looking for a candidate to become the next slaves, cannon fodder, free labor.
Let's say they have this deal that they work for the "bigger problem" until they find new 'pawns' on the galactic game of chess. Once they succeed, they are free to go home. Admiral Petrarch's speach of them being travelers who are homeless like the Humans would be pretty much right on the money.
And since they are speculated to have opened a supernode leading to their homeworld, it's possible that the GTVA passed the test in terran_emperor's theory (perhaps they're forced to do it on each candidate to amuse the "bigger problem", like gladiators had to do different tasks to amuse Ancient Romans).
That means we are to become the next Shivans, and we'll be forced to fight some war on the other end of the galaxy, while having small fleets search for civilizations that pass some kind of new test to take our place...
...while the "bigger problem" guys bet money on how long it would take us to find a replacement for ourselves.
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5 Deimos' that it's the terrans
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THats veering into "Humans are special" territory
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5 Deimos' that it's the terrans
5 Deimos' it ain't.
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THats veering into "Humans are special" territory
Why? If we're being one of the hundreds of species that acted as pawns for the "bigger problem" over the ages, I don't think we're any more special than those before and after us.
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Vary nice theory, ziame approves :yes:
About wondering into "humans are special territory" well... I don't recall terrans being in other galaxy. Gotcha. Now I wanna cookie.
The 'special' thing may be that GTVA are TWO races, instead of one. But would it be fun if we were wiped out in the first place?
GTVA -> two races -> humans aren't special, zods are -> Shivans fear -> we eat their cookies -> we kill their masters -> muahahahahah
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My idea about this "bigger problem":
The Shivans are just it's slaves, free labor type of dudes, cannon fodder. Some of them could be fighting some war for the "bigger problem".
Others could be looking for a candidate to become the next slaves, cannon fodder, free labor.
Let's say they have this deal that they work for the "bigger problem" until they find new 'pawns' on the galactic game of chess. Once they succeed, they are free to go home. Admiral Petrarch's speach of them being travelers who are homeless like the Humans would be pretty much right on the money.
And since they are speculated to have opened a supernode leading to their homeworld, it's possible that the GTVA passed the test in terran_emperor's theory (perhaps they're forced to do it on each candidate to amuse the "bigger problem", like gladiators had to do different tasks to amuse Ancient Romans).
That means we are to become the next Shivans, and we'll be forced to fight some war on the other end of the galaxy, while having small fleets search for civilizations that pass some kind of new test to take our place...
...while the "bigger problem" guys bet money on how long it would take us to find a replacement for ourselves.
No. We don't become the next Shivans. We team up with the Shivans, and the Vasudans, and the returned Ancients, and the Vishnans, and the Andarta, and the Nightmares, and the Starborn, and every other race that was ever thought up for an FS campaign, and we take the fight to the "bigger problem" and save the galaxy forever. FIGHT THE POWAH!
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Unfortunately, the bigger problem is much nicer on other races and the shivans are truely evil
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Who says the Shivans are evil? They could be protecting the universe from the terrible humans... :p
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Good and evil are like beauty - Subjective - in the eye of the beholder. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The difference between a religious zealot and a religious martyr is a matter of oppinion.
Take Jeanne d'Arc - she got canonized for her actions. Another person is just as likely to be declared insane and a religious terrorist for the same actions.
So From our limited perspective, the shivans appear to be evil.
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Shivans real enemy is the origional and only remaining Alpha 1 decendent line. In Sol. Alpha 1 (copy, aka fs2) died. Sol has a whole mess of True Blooded Alpha 1's ready and waiting for the shivans all personally trained.
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Yes but ST Alpha 1 was Bosch so...
I dont care what anyone elses opinion on the matter is. IMHO Alpha 1 in Silent Threat was the then Lieutenant Aken H. Bosch
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Yes but ST Alpha 1 was Bosch so...
I dont care what anyone elses opinion on the matter is. IMHO Alpha 1 in Silent Threat was the then Lieutenant Aken H. Bosch
Nice to see we agree here. :D
But don't force your opinion on others or bad things will happen XD.
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I'm not forcing my opinions on other people. I'm just saying that it is my honest opinion that the Silent Threat Alpha 1 is Aken Bosch and No one is going to change my mind on that, But everyone is free to believe whatever they want to believe
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Honestly this idea seems silly to me. Why would the shivans be wasting so many resources to "groom" another race for fighting over decades? It takes REALLY long, the race grows to hate your guts, so once it becomes powerfull enough it's probably gonna go after YOU, not your enemy.
Those 80 Sath's could be a LOT more useful in whatever war they are fighting. Wouldn't a more logical step be to try and find allies? Not shooting at the, but sharing technology with them, helping them expand their military might?
The incorporation of new tech would go so much faster and neither the Shivans nor the GTVA would loose recources on eachother, but could both forcus on the big enemy.
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Pretty hard to tell...
The Shivans obviously has mastered Subspace, and may even reside in it. I remember someone comparing them to the immune system, and that humans (and other space-faring civilizations) were like parasites. Whenever a race grew strong and vast enough (discovery of Subspace) then the Shivans would take notice and eventually move in to eliminate the threat. But I don't really know - I guess it's up to the individual to decide who or what the Shivans really are.
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Honestly this idea seems silly to me. Why would the shivans be wasting so many resources to "groom" another race for fighting over decades? It takes REALLY long, the race grows to hate your guts, so once it becomes powerfull enough it's probably gonna go after YOU, not your enemy.
I am inclined to agree. :nod:
Wasn't there that quote that went "Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts."?
This takes it one step beyond that, purposefully inciting a second war, instead of seeking to prevent one.
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Honestly this idea seems silly to me. Why would the shivans be wasting so many resources to "groom" another race for fighting over decades? It takes REALLY long, the race grows to hate your guts, so once it becomes powerfull enough it's probably gonna go after YOU, not your enemy.
Those 80 Sath's could be a LOT more useful in whatever war they are fighting. Wouldn't a more logical step be to try and find allies? Not shooting at the, but sharing technology with them, helping them expand their military might?
The incorporation of new tech would go so much faster and neither the Shivans nor the GTVA would loose recources on eachother, but could both forcus on the big enemy.
Ah but those 80 Saths could be peanuts to the Shivans, just training drones, for all we know they have a ship bigger than 80 Saths put together. It could be that their sense of scale is completely different to ours and they have a collosal amount of resources hidden somewhere.
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In that case, it'll take a really long time to actually groom something worth using.
Also, regardless if 80 Saths are peanuts, if they're making a race get more powerful, they'll eventually have to test them with stuff that isn't...
This whole thing about 'oh lets make these random weak guys stronger by throwing our stuff them so they can eventually kill what we're fighting' makes absolutely no sense, unless you make it really clear that you're just training them. (In which case, they would have attempted communication).
Even then, it may be a lot less effort to simply make yourself stronger than to make something weaker surpass you...
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Who says the shivans know what inter-species communication is? They might never of thought of the idea, it might be against their nature.
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Perhaps, but it is as good as anything since anyone can make up anything since no one exactly knows the agendas behind the Shivans as a race. :P
But seriously, for a race that advanced, I highly doubt that they wouldn't know what inter-species comm. is, but I think it'd be more of being against their nature of a hive.
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I had to reread that first sentence thrice before i got it.
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Ah but those 80 Saths could be peanuts to the Shivans, just training drones, for all we know they have a ship bigger than 80 Saths put together. It could be that their sense of scale is completely different to ours and they have a collosal amount of resources hidden somewhere.
In that case what possible help could the GTVA be? It would be too small and insignificant to help in any way for millenia to come. And it will certamly take longer for it to reach higher power if you destroy it's people, scientists and infrastructure in regular intervals.
Again, makes no sense.
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Who says the shivans know what inter-species communication is? They might never of thought of the idea, it might be against their nature.
Last time I checked they were supposed to be intelligent.
Without understanding what communication is, they never would have gotten anywhere.
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Well, sure, I guess you could just wave it all off and go "It's because the Shivans are retarded, duh!"...
But doing that in itself defeats the purpose of speculating about their motives in the first place.
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Who says the shivans know what inter-species communication is? They might never of thought of the idea, it might be against their nature.
Last time I checked they were supposed to be intelligent.
Without understanding what communication is, they never would have gotten anywhere.
I said inter-species communication, not communication within their species
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No. We don't become the next Shivans. We team up with the Shivans, and the Vasudans, and the returned Ancients, and the Vishnans, and the Andarta, and the Nightmares, and the Starborn, and every other race that was ever thought up for an FS campaign, and we take the fight to the "bigger problem" and save the galaxy forever. FIGHT THE POWAH!
Terrans joining up with the Shivans?... :rolleyes: Seriously, no... Shivans = evil xenocidal bastards, fin!
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Seconded - No Alliance with the Shivans. Ever! They did somehing to bosch - expermiented on him, killed him... something nasty.
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I always thought the Shivans brought Bosch on some kind of enlightening voyage through space, like Journey of the Forgotten...
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Yeah, I always imagined they showed him all the stuff the player wished s/he could've seen.