Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Lucika on March 03, 2009, 09:27:11 am
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The title is self-explanatory.
Which would win?
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ARe we talking vanilla FS1 hades and Lucy, vanilla FS2 Hades and Lucy, SCP FS2 Hades and Lucifer or FSPort SCP Hades and Lucifer?
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Depends of which one can bring the most beams to bear. That, and if the Hades can keep the Shivan fighters/bombers off its beam turrets (the Lucy doesn't have that problem, it's shielded). IMHO.
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well like i said.
Vanilla FS1 Lucy and Hades are armed with Shivan Super Lasers
Vanilla FS2 Lucy armed with SReds and Hades with BGreens both have less HP than FS1 versions
SCP FS2 Lucy and Hades seem to me be basically a more purdy Hades and the Port Lucy with Vanilla FS2 weapons and stats and no shields
ST:R/FS Port Lucy has 4 SSL Beams and Shields possibly more turrets - Hades is the Hades Mk II model possibly upgraded with more turrets. No idea if their HP is altered.
Id sat that the Port/ST:R versions of the Hades and Lucifer are the strongest.
As to which of them would win. id say face to face, it could probably go either way. Most likely to the Lucifer since it actually has shields. In a broad side engagement, id say the Lucifer would win since it has an SSL Beam weapon on either side
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Vanilla FS1 versions 1 on 1 (no fighters, bombers etc.)
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Assuming a straight fight with both vessels approaching each other head-on, the Lucifer has a slight advantage because all non-beam weapons on the Hades can't penetrate that lovely shield of omgwtfbbq invulnerability. The Hades would probably stand a better chance if it could establish a superior position against the Lucifer, particularly if it jumped in to the Lucifer's rear quarter.
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Does the Lucy have "Invulnerable" checked in FRED?
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I'm going just by the models and their TBL entries
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They'd be the same if you're talking about FS1 table wise.
Both have the same amount of HP (800k), and have two Shivan Super Lasers, and can bring both of them to bear if optimally positioned (Hades' Top facing the Lucifer's Front)
It'd be down to luck and which one takes out the other's SSLs first.
In FS2, the Hades has 50% the HP of the Lucifer (400k), but has 2 BGreens, giving it much more firepower than the Lucifer, as it only has 2 SReds. Someone said that the Lucifer would be target practice for an Orion in FS2, so I'm putting my money on the Hades in a FS2 battle.
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They'd be the same if you're talking about FS1 table wise.
Both have the same amount of HP (800k), and have two Shivan Super Lasers, and can bring both of them to bear if optimally positioned (Hades' Top facing the Lucifer's Front)
It'd be down to luck and which one takes out the other's SSLs first.
In FS2, the Hades has 50% the HP of the Lucifer (400k), but has 2 BGreens, giving it much more firepower than the Lucifer, as it only has 2 SReds. Someone said that the Lucifer would be target practice for an Orion in FS2, so I'm putting my money on the Hades in a FS2 battle.
Well, the Port/ST:R
Hades has beams and 5 engine subsystems
Lucy - 4 SSL Beam Turrets and shields...so
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FSPort/ST:R?
Ok...lets see... the Lucifer can bring all four of its SSLbeams to fire on a forward target (thanks to the 180 degree fire arc on its side beams). The Hades can bring four as well (though it has a total of five, two are on opposite sides and one is on the bottom, so optimum would still be facing top, or broadside, with one broadside beam inactive, or the bottom one inactive).
Beams bypass shields, so that's a moot point pretty much, and they have the same HP if I recall, so it'd still be pretty even.
The Hades is supposed to be a recreation of the Lucifer, and in that regard, I think it succeeds pretty well.
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:wtf: I don't remember the Port Lucifer having beam turrets mounted on the sides in-game.
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Does it not? I thought they were just locked, like how all but any two of the Hades's beams always are in ST:R.
I must have been mistaken then. Rather, most of us were :P
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Y'all are forgeting that subsystems on the vanilla hades die instantly. The Lucifer would win, hands down, because within a couple of seconds the Hades would be disabled.
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Y'all are forgeting that subsystems on the vanilla hades die instantly. The Lucifer would win, hands down, because within a couple of seconds the Hades would be disabled.
That depends on the position of both the Lucifer and Hades during the fight. The Hades tends to be disabled by other Terran or Vasudan vessels easily because they employ slash-type anti-capital beams, while the Shivans have only ever used direct fire versions. Slash beams tend to rake across subsystems and disable them; direct fire beams rarely do.
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I was basing my evaluations on the two ships being stationary, being optimally positioned, so not being able to move not mean a thing.
Besides, if they were mobile, the Lucifer would eventually turn and be unable to hit the Hades with its main weapons anyway. (Unless you're counting the Lucifer as having side-mounted SSLbeams, but then the Hades still has the advantage because its SSLBeams are spaced on all side of the hull).
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You have a new icon, Droid.
But yeah, the Hades in FS2 is ridiculous because it gets disabled too easily. Ever played JAD:SSE? The harbringer usually gets disabled less than TEN SECONDS into the mission.
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Is getting disabled such a disadvantage for a capital ship? They hardly move anyway, and when they do, its usually into a position where it's poorly positioned engage the enemy.
The Harbinger manages to finish of the SD ph34r (or whatever) just fine...or were you talking about the mission that comes after?
@Icon: Yeah, a few other people do too :P
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i wanna toss in the derelict lucy. that one was scary!
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Or maybe INFR1s with two BFReds
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Is getting disabled such a disadvantage for a capital ship? They hardly move anyway, and when they do, its usually into a position where it's poorly positioned engage the enemy.
The Harbinger manages to finish of the SD ph34r (or whatever) just fine...or were you talking about the mission that comes after?
@Icon: Yeah, a few other people do too :P
Well, in order for a ship to fight properly, it needs to be able to bring most of its functioning gunpoints to bear, as well as to receive damage evenly around the ship so that no weak spots are generated during a battle. If you've tried TSM-69 on Insane, you may get my point.
A tall order for a ship with no propulsion.
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It's not like the AI can handle that very well even if they do move.
I've found that they tend to expose sections that don't have functioning turrets more often that not.
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We arnt counting shields. Stronger weapons or not, any cap ship with shields, has too great of an advantage.
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Well as i said the strongest versions of the Hades and Lucifer are the FS:Port/ST:R versions. So a battle between them could go either way - depending on several things.
*Skill of the respective crews
*Logistical support
*Tactical Support
*Luck
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We arnt counting shields. Stronger weapons or not, any cap ship with shields, has too great of an advantage.
Not against other capital ships with beam cannons... :rolleyes:
Why doesn't anyone get that? Even if the Lucifer only had a hull integrity of 500 hull and one septillion (24 zeroes) shields, guess what? THE BEAMS WILL KILL IT IN ONE SHOT.
The Lucifer class ship used in Tides of Darkness, the one with what, nine Flux Cannons, THAT is one fearsome beast.
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Not against other capital ships with beam cannons... :rolleyes:
Why doesn't anyone get that? Even if the Lucifer only had a hull integrity of 500 hull and one septillion (24 zeroes) shields, guess what? THE BEAMS WILL KILL IT IN ONE SHOT.
Citation needed?
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:confused:
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There is no canon proof whatsoever that beams would be able to pierce the Lucifer's shields.
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Well considering that every time it shows up with anything capable of putting more than a dink in the hull it's invulnerable.
It's Canon that it's 100% invulnerable until the final mission, OR if someone forgets to give it the invulnerable tag on FRED. ;)
Although I shouldn't have singled out the Lucifer based on what Charismatic said, since he said "any cap ship," therefore any capital ship can have absurd amounts of shields, two hull points and get ganked by a AAA beam.
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I based the beam-weakness of the Lucifer in ToD on the gameplay mechanic that AAA beams pierce fighter shields. However, that is just one (noncanon) interpretation. The Lucifer's shielding system could be completely different - it could just as easily make in completely invulnerable.
If you count the Lucifer's shields as making it completely invulnerable, there's little point to this thread now, isn't there? :P It would trash the Hades, without so much as a scratch.
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The gameplay mechanic is that any regular FS2 beam pierces fighter shields, it's just the AAA beams that don't insta-slag you at the same time. :P
Except maybe the ULTRA-Anti-Fighter Beam. :D
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There is no canon proof whatsoever that beams would be able to pierce the Lucifer's shields.
Zactly!
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If you think about it the Colossus would then have a chance of being completely, absofreakinglutely, and utterly useless if they spent 20 years to make something to battle ships like the Lucifer and end up having zero effect on it.
Under the concepts of common sense, beams would be able to, otherwise they wouldn't even try it at all.
I certainly wouldn't...
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If you think about it the Colossus would then have a chance of being completely, absofreakinglutely, and utterly useless if they spent 20 years to make something to battle ships like the Lucifer and end up having zero effect on it.
Under the concepts of common sense, beams would be able to, otherwise they wouldn't even try it at all.
I certainly wouldn't...
That's the same reason I've always held that the Lucifer would have been vulnerable (and most likely more than vulnerable) to beam weaponry, for whatever technobabble reason. We've all jokingly disparaged Command's intelligence, but the fact remains that the Colossus was a project that took a massive amount of resources and twenty whole years to complete. If Command intended for it to be a surefire Lucifer-killer, then they would have been as close to certain as possible that its weaponry was capable of doing the job.
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Yeah, it's kind of...implied canon that the ship would be effective against the Lucifer.
I know, I know, that's not real canon.
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Well it was designed as an anti-Lucifer in any case another Lucifer armada appeared again from my interpretation of the cutscene.
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Citation needed?
FSPort -> Mission with the Lucifer -> www.freespace2.com -> ~ + 0 -> SSLBeam -> Lucifer -> Target -> ~ + SHIFT + I -> Turn off invulnerability -> Primary fire button
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Citation needed?
FSPort -> Mission with the Lucifer -> www.freespace2.com -> ~ + 0 -> SSLBeam -> Lucifer -> Target -> ~ + SHIFT + I -> Turn off invulnerability -> Primary fire button
So cheats are canon now? :rolleyes:
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Technically if they've been in the game since first release... ;7
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Citation needed?
FSPort -> Mission with the Lucifer -> www.freespace2.com -> ~ + 0 -> SSLBeam -> Lucifer -> Target -> ~ + SHIFT + I -> Turn off invulnerability -> Primary fire button
(http://img.boardreader.com/48/e0/th_picard-facepalm-small-48e0d0a66ac8edf77a9dbe21c1768a77.jpg)
Freespace Port is not canon.
Fighters having beams is not canon
If you turn off the invulnerability of the Lucifer you can destroy it with a sufficient number of Harbingers.
HTH
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Ah crap. I always think that FSPort's canon. I conveniently forget that the original Shivan Super Laser is still a turret munition with an invisible head.
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Maybe the Hades and Colossus were always meant to engage Lucifers in subspace.
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That's kinda stupid then...
If you're going to sacrifice a node every time, why not just use bombers?
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Didn't the Collie have over 60 wings or something?
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Yeah, it had some stupidly large number in the briefing, though I seem to remember the actual number is lower? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Either way...plenty of bombers. And engaging Lucifers in subspace seems to be a recipe to quickly be a large number of isolated worlds instead of an alliance.
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They should have escape pods too. I wonder why they didn't use them in Their Finest Hour...
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The whole crew said phuk it. ;7
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They should have escape pods too. I wonder why they didn't use them in Their Finest Hour...
The fighterbay was damaged, and the escape pods probably would have been killed in the blast.
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This one is easy. Command didn't think the Colossus could be destroyed. :lol:
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The Sathanas blows up the Collie really, really fast if played on hard or higher iirc, so I doubt the crew would have sufficient time to get to escape pods.
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If they had foreknowledge, at least long enough in advance to evacuate, of another incoming Sath, why wouldn't they evacuate all but a skeleton crew?
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I would think so, but in the debriefing it mentions the number of crew aboard the Colossus killed were about the same as a fully crewed ship.
That's a good question: Command would surely know that the Sathanas with all 4 frontal beams can easily destroy the Colossus head-on.
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Considering that they directly call you to destroy the first Sath's forward beams...I would agree that they know...that doesn't really make sense, then...it would seem like you would want as few casualties as possible in case the worst happened, and with the worst hitting new records daily, it makes sense to prepare.
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. . . then again FS2's Command are notorious for making very bad tactical decisions. ;)
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. . . this is a sad but excellent point. I am forced to admit that's a very probable cause.
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With a Command like the GTVA has, who needs Shivans?
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Well I don't think they'd yet implemented the patented every-button-is-self-destruct method of bridge console construction, so you might actually need the Shivans, a little. Sort of.
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I still don't get their tactics, like in the great hunt. "Yeah lets go roam the nebula with some corvettes and blow up stuff until we find a Shivan base of operations, and from our previous encounters, will be very dangerous."
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What are you lot on about? Command's tactics are pretty solid all the way through.
I still don't get their tactics, like in the great hunt. "Yeah lets go roam the nebula with some corvettes and blow up stuff until we find a Shivan base of operations, and from our previous encounters, will be very dangerous."
Reconnaissance in force is a well-established military tactic. It was a hunter-killer group utilizing data from recon wings. Tactically ideal.
Don't let hindsight blind you.
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Without foresight, that seems really the only practical method for recon in that environment, at least so it seems to me. I could be wrong, but I admit to a fondness for the direct approach, so...
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There's this meme about how 'command is dumb lololololol', but there's not really any evidence for it. Command makes a few bad choices, but far more good ones.
It's funny, though, because grunts have always liked to ***** about how stupid the REMFs are, and this is no different. We just don't have access to the full picture.
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I don't think command actually thought a Sath would take the time to attack the Collie, they all seemed busy with what they were doing to the star, and, in truth, the Captain of the Collie was ordered to withdraw when the Sath arrived, but refused, so I don't think we can blame command for that one.
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There's this meme about
Meme? Man i miss the drew cary show