Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Fate of the Galaxy => Topic started by: TomShak on March 05, 2009, 03:13:07 am
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Just to add another voice in favour of the AG ..
As I'm sure I've stated in another thread somewhere, I always liked the assault gunboat because it gives the imperials capabilities they otherwise wouldn't have: hyperspace and ion-cannons. It seems fairly obvious that the dominant imperial tactic was small fighters without hyperspace supported by a larger vessel such as an ISD. None the less, it's not hard to imagine that they would have needed a limited number of more specialised fighters.
In my mind the assault gunboat would mainly be used for disabling craft for capture, as a rapid-reaction force that could arrive before an ISD, and for pre-strike reconnaissance. In terms of performance I agree with earlier comments, between a Y-Wing and an X-Wing. Given the nature of the tasks that would be assigned to the assault gunboat, it makes sense that it should be usable in either a bomber role, or in a space superiority role.
In terms of appearance, to me it always fitted in well because it looks like a Lambda class shuttle. I agree on the colours though, it should be more plain than in XWA. Just some different shades of grey would probably be enough to give it depth. I really liked the general shape of Vertigo's truespace model http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gbwholetempfq9.jpg (http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gbwholetempfq9.jpg). The wings are a little long perhaps, but I think the overall shape is good.
The other big thing I loved about the assault gunboat was that it was a really useful craft from the point of view of writing missions. If you want the empire to disable and capture something you were pretty much stuffed without a craft like the assault gunboat. It was also really useful that you could hyperspace them in at a critical moment. It also made some nice variety of missions for the empire as you could do more interesting stuff than you can with TIEs alone. You could be sent to disable and protect a capturing craft, or you could be sent on recon, or as the rapid response force to a rebel attack. You can make some really interesting missions around all of these things, but without a craft like the assault gunboat you simply can't do any of them ...
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I don't get why everyone is so hung up on ion cannons. Yes in the games they were the only method of disabling a craft. That was a game mechanic. The movies make no such assumption. Despite Vader's insistence that they capture Luke, Han and Leia throughout the trilogy, never once does an ISD use it's Ion cannons, but it has them. Ion Cannons may be one way to disable a craft, but blowing up the engines or reactor work just as well, if you take the movies as a reference.
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Well I'd say that the best argument is that the rebel alliance chose to put three ion cannons on the B-Wing. If ion cannons were not useful then it would make no sense to fit them. If the exact same function could be achieved by using lasers and simply targeting the engines then it would make sense to fit the B-Wing with 6 laser cannons.
We know that ion cannons did have the effect of disabling subsystems, and the fact that the Rebel's decided to fit them (3 of them none the less) on their custom designed B-Wing fighters suggests that they were considered a very useful asset. We can therefore conclude that the Rebel Alliance did not consider targeting subsystems with laser cannons to be an effective means of disabling ships.
Although it's conceivable that the Rebel Alliance favoured ion cannons and the Empire favoured other approaches, I find it hard to imagine that the empire had no use for a starfighter equipped with ion cannons. This is particularly true because I can think of a lot of cases where the Empire might want to disable escaping craft.
Also I like them from a gameplay perspective, I personally think trying to shoot out the engines on a Lamba shuttle would be all but impossible if it was maneuvering at all. You'd be more likely to end up blowing it up from missing and hitting a critical system, and that would be very problematic if the passengers had vital intelligence information ... I also rather doubt the AI would be very effective at disabling a shuttle in these circumstances, I'm sure 9 times out of 10 they would end up blowing it up by mistake ...
All in all I like the idea that ion cannons are for disabling, particularly since we canonically know that several rebel craft are fitted with them. Therefore I think the empire should have a similar craft, and for me that craft is the assault gunboat. Just my point of view, obviously :)
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I didn't say Ion Cannons were useless, what I suggested is that, being as the empire never uses them when in fact they're the only ones who have any interest throughout the series of taking prisoners, means that there are other ways of capturing a ship. In addition, the B-Wing is supposed to be a heavy assault starfighter meant to take down small capships.
If anything, I'd suggest that an Ion Cannon is a great means to temporarily short out electrical systems as well as being good shield breakers, given that they are referenced on the Wookie as very effective against shields (which would also explain their use on the B-Wing) and because the Star Destroyer taken down by the Hoth Ion Cannon was only temporarily put out of commission.
Also, if they're used mainly in combat situations as shield breakers, it'd even further explain why the rebels use them more than the empire, given that the empire has such large ships with large guns, built to be some of the biggest combat vessels in existence, that the rebels' shields are rarely a concern for them (save for MonCals, but they entered the fight late.) On the other hand, the rebels are often put up against large foes where surgical strikes on key systems and targets are a necessity, due to their lack of heavy hitters.
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It's also worth noting that the Alliance has an interest in hijacking ships to help build their fleet, while that is not the case for the Empire. Presumably the most fail proof way to make sure a vessel does not get away from you is to shoot up its engines or power system with your best guns, but if the Alliance wants to capture a vessel and have it stay captured, they have to be able to make off with it before Imperial reinforcements arrive. Severely melted engines and reactors might slow down that turnaround time a little bit.
The Empire on the other hand doesn't give a crap about the state some criminal's ship is in when they bring it in, they just want to get the job done as quickly as possible to make sure their quarry doesn't flee into hyperspace. Then they can throw the whole thing into the hangar bay and sell it later at government auction. Damn it's good to be an Imp. :pimp:
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Unfortunately Star Wars is full of things that are tactically illogical, and I would say this is just another example. Even if ion cannons were shield breakers designed to target and disable specific systems they should have had more use in the films. For example the opening scene of ANH with the Star Destroyer and the 'Rebel Blockade Runner'. We know the star destroyer carries ion cannons, and this would have seemed an ideal engagement to use them in. Busting through the corvette's shields and disabling their engines was exactly what the star destroyer was trying to do, and without the risk of collateral damage that lasers had. Yet the star destroyer clearly uses turbo lasers, which is very hard to explain from a tactical standpoint.
Without a doubt there are several different approaches that SWC could take with ion cannons, and I'm sure it would be possible to support each option with good canonical evidence :) Personally I quite enjoyed the way ion cannons worked in the TG games, it was nice that you could disable shuttles and transports quite easily and a lot of the missions made use of this to good effect in my view. But I'm sure there would be other ways of doing it.
Moving back onto topic, as I say there are many reasons that I'm a fan of the assault gunboat :) I certainly like it a lot more than many of the other craft introduced by the TG games, for example the ridiculous TIE Defender and Missile Boat.
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Who says the output of a star destroyer's ion cannons are equal to its turbolasers?
The destroyer's ion cannons might only be able to disable fighters.
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I doubt they'd waste the space on them in that case. Also look at the ISD I, which has two Ion cannon turrets that are even bigger than its main Turbolaser turrets, at roughly 50-60m in diameter. Seems a little silly that they'd build a turret half the size of a football field to disable small starfighters
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maybe they didn' t use the ion cannons because they require more energy to fire it. Maybe they are ineffective against shields. maybe they are slower. these reasons are probably why the Devastator used surgical strikes at the reactor of the Tantive IV.
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That and the destroyer didn't have a firing solution with its Ion cannons, I don't think.
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Maybe those two turrets, how about the other 60 scattered around the hull?
Either way, the point I'm trying to make is not that Ion cannons are useless, or that Ion cannons don't disable ships, it's that it's 100% indisputable that you do not require Ion cannons to capture a ship. Therefore, the argument that the gunboat is necessary due to the idea that the empire would have no other way to capture a ship without it is invalid.
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I believe the difference here is the meaning between "capture" and "board." Capturing a ship consists of boarding the vessel and taking it over. Boarding a ship however, isn't necessarily concerned with capture of the craft, so in those cases, who cares what kind of state the vessel is left in, as long as you can board it and capture who or what you're looking for on it.
In the case of the movies, the Devastator obviously wasn't interested in capturing the Tantive IV, only boarding it and capturing the Princess and recovering the Death Star plans. The Devastator is also many times larger than a corvette and with strong shields, so it need not be concerned with taking out weapons systems, as it could take whatever the Tantive IV could dish out, even if it was firing on it during boarding maneuvers. A smaller boarding craft would definitely need to be worried about this though. If only the engines were taken out, a well armed vessel could very easily still defend itself from a boarding operation. They would also be useful against more fragile targets, such as shuttles and fighters. The Rebels in Empire on the other hand just wanted to knock a Star Destroyer out of commission for a long time so the transports could get away. These connotate two different uses of ion cannons, but they both share the common goal of taking out defenses, with the former for boarding purposes.
Ions should take out a craft for a long time, from a few hours to days, which is much longer than any can take in a game, unless you...edit in the status in the following mission, let's say. Ships should be able to repair themselves in most cases I think, but a specialized repair crew will obviously expedite the process.
I suggest splitting this thread into a separate discussion of ion cannons before it gets any further off topic.
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This is definitely getting off topic :)
I still think they would be a valuable asset to the empire for capturing smaller and faster ships such as shuttles and transports, where reliably hitting the engines could be extremely difficult. I do take your point, though, that certainly for larger craft destroying the engines or such like is also a valid option - albeit probably a more risky one.
As I say, for me there are lots of reasons to like the assault gunboat and ion cannons are only a small part of it. For reconnaissance, for a rapid-response force, for patrols. Not everyone agrees though, and that's fine :)
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A smaller boarding craft would definitely need to be worried about this though. If only the engines were taken out, a well armed vessel could very easily still defend itself from a boarding operation.
Ions should take out a craft for a long time, from a few hours to days, which is much longer than any can take in a game, unless you...edit in the status in the following mission, let's say. Ships should be able to repair themselves in most cases I think, but a specialized repair crew will obviously expedite the process.
The Tantive IV reactor had to be shut down, and with it all its weapons and defense systems. So it doesn't matter if you attack with a big or small ship. As brandx0 said, the ion cannon is not the only way to strip a ship of its defenses and to disable it.
I don't agree with disabled ships to stay disabled for such a long time. In The Space Combat Simulator games, the systems of a ion/emp-based disabled craft are restored instantly after the boarding procedure. That doesn't make sense. Why can't the crew repair systems on its own in that time? The disabled ship's crew should be able to restore systems in a shorter time...making boarding missions harder. But you can disable it then again, of course :).
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Only 10 times is far too many, I meant bevel it one time.
Oh, and of the E-Wing again, I just did up a triangulated wire render for ya, note how my large engine pods have less sides than your tiny tiny little tubes for the S-foils.
(http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/9379/ewingwirepr8.jpg)
You do realize there is no effective way that the pilot can enter/exit that craft?.. The top weapon needs to be raised or removed...
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Supposedly the laser cannon flips up
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You do realize there is no effective way that the pilot can enter/exit that craft?.. The top weapon needs to be raised or removed...
That is true to the original design. :lol:
As for ion cannons and the Devastator scene...
Why would you use ion cannons, while you can just burn off the engines with turbolasers? If you're trying to stop a ship from escaping, it wouldn't make much sense to temporarily disable it.
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Maybe those two turrets, how about the other 60 scattered around the hull?
Either way, the point I'm trying to make is not that Ion cannons are useless, or that Ion cannons don't disable ships, it's that it's 100% indisputable that you do not require Ion cannons to capture a ship. Therefore, the argument that the gunboat is necessary due to the idea that the empire would have no other way to capture a ship without it is invalid.
I agree.
But i think Ion Cannos aber a better way to disable minor Crafts.
In Episode V the ion discharge seems to go over the entire hull of the ISD.
I want to say therewith that the ion canons must land probably no direct hit in order to reach the engines.
If we assumes now, that a direct laser hit has the same effect on the engines of a Shuttles, you need a verry good pilot to do that. For with every shot of that not directly the engine encounters, takes the Shuttle further damage and is destroyed if possible before its disabled. Therefore I would propose that Ion Canons correspond more like the principle of the Leach Cannon or yet better to the Disruptor Missle.
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How the hell did my E-Wing get on here...?
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It was from way the hell up in the other thread, where he was just starting to work on his Gunboat, but I didn't feel like pulling it too, and this post didn't make any more sense over there really.
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I know it hasn't been posted in, dear lord...
Anyways, am I the only one that noticed that the hoth ion cannon was roughly the size of.... uhm, something really, really big?
I bet Ion Cannons have to be PRETTY be to disable a ship. I estimate that the hoth ion cannon it several times the size of an isd's. The one's on fighters are probably mostly meant for shields.
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I don't know if canon measurements exist for that thing, but I don't think the Hoth Ion cannon is representative for ion cannons in general, since it had to be able to reach a ship in orbit with enough hitting power to disable it in as few blasts as possible. Ship-mounted Ion cannons can be much, much smaller, because the range is shorter, and you'll probably get more chances to hit your target.
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http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/V-150_Planet_Defender Didn't see any size measurements, but there seems to be an ESB screen that shows it alongside one of the common ground turrets that isn't too far in the background. So yeah, it's big, and its dedicated power supply is even bigger.
I think it's safe to assume that your Y-wing's ion cannons will not be crippling an ISD a la X-wing :). That doesn't mean that starfighter mounted ions are only good for breaking shields though; stuff the size of say a Lambda shuttle is probably best disabled with ions as you could end up blowing it away while trying to shoot out its engines with lasers. Even larger ships like bulk freighters could be appropriate targets for a few fighters--hijacking is an important form of procurement for the Alliance.
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Perhaps make it that a well organized attack (at least a squad for an ISD) could disable a capship? This way the possibility is still there but uncommon and unlikely.
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no, they dont have the power to breach the isd's hull, they might deactivate the odd turbolaser or tractor beam, but they arent going to be making much of a difference. its like the difference between putting a 9v battery on your tongue, and doing the same with a power transmission cable.
that one ISD that got hit at Hoth probably suffered severe internal damage, the power of the ion beam would likely have blown many turbolaser capacitors and other delicate systems.
a fighter scale ion cannon might scramble a targeting sensor for 5 seconds
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Maybe use it like Akheton SDG ,not for disabling entire ship at once ,but for surgical strikes on subsystems.
Shoot turbolasers ,engines ,reactor and it will be a sitting duck because of lack of power ,and I think very attractive target for boarding teams. You know ,board the ship ,haul it away ,replace fryed electronics and you have an ISD in your side if you will find a crew for it. I always imagined ion cannons overload electronic systems of the ship ,so even ISD could be disabled by fighters if they shoot at critical subsystems. Hoth cannon was so powerful that it burnt all electonics witch one shot.
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btw, make Ion Cannon shots blue!
The Ion Cannon shots in Adywans Empire Revistited are blue!
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maybe the reason that the alliance uses ions is simply that it lacks the resources to have sufficient avaionics for targeting specific subsystems...
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that makes no sense, most of their ships are stolen from the empire. so same kit, regardless.
the alliance uses ion cannons because:
a) it means spare or saleable parts for salvage
b) plays hell with turbolaser banks, reducing the amount of incoming fire on the undergunned rebel fleet
c) they can interrogate survivors to find equipment dumps prime for raiding.
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no, they dont have the power to breach the isd's hull, they might deactivate the odd turbolaser or tractor beam, but they arent going to be making much of a difference. its like the difference between putting a 9v battery on your tongue, and doing the same with a power transmission cable.
that one ISD that got hit at Hoth probably suffered severe internal damage, the power of the ion beam would likely have blown many turbolaser capacitors and other delicate systems.
a fighter scale ion cannon might scramble a targeting sensor for 5 seconds
Who said anything about breaching hulls? That's what laser cannons are for. The Rebels aren't going to be able to commit a capship for every capship capture operation like the Imperials could.
Maybe use it like Akheton SDG ,not for disabling entire ship at once ,but for surgical strikes on subsystems.
Shoot turbolasers ,engines ,reactor and it will be a sitting duck because of lack of power ,and I think very attractive target for boarding teams. You know ,board the ship ,haul it away ,replace fryed electronics and you have an ISD in your side if you will find a crew for it. I always imagined ion cannons overload electronic systems of the ship ,so even ISD could be disabled by fighters if they shoot at critical subsystems. Hoth cannon was so powerful that it burnt all electonics witch one shot.
This idea would work well with how FS2 works already. Otherwise, you would have to physically damage components, and it wouldn't make sense to destroy the engines or the reactor if you want to capture the ship, though they should still be left as alternative methods for other situations.
btw, make Ion Cannon shots blue!
The Ion Cannon shots in Adywans Empire Revistited are blue!
Is that finished yet? I can't wait to see it. I prefer purple though, like they were originally. He didn't recolor the torpedoes blue in ANH. They're still pink.
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Who said anything about breaching hulls? That's what laser cannons are for. The Rebels aren't going to be able to commit a capship for every capship capture operation like the Imperials could.
just to point out the utter genius of your statement:
the energy has to make it through the hull(pretty much the definition of breach)
a fighter scale ion cannon will dissipate in the armour and wont do squat.
and further more, imperials dont capture ships, they destroy them.
trying to justify equipment capabilities because of force disposition is wrong. "im a good guy, and i have a pistol, you guys are ****ed even though theres a hundred of you and you all have assault rifles." if the previous sentence made no sense, it wasn,t supposed to. it is a paraphrase of your justification of a fighter being able to disable a capital ship.
yeah, the rebels can't spare shipsto capture other ships, but guess what, that's why they steal them from repair facilities. i dont think you realize it, but the ONLY reason the rebelion didnt get crushed, was because they RAN. they had inferior equipment and munitions, and were vastly outgunned and out numbered.
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and further more, imperials dont capture ships, they destroy them.
Unless you're the Falcon...or the Tantive IV...or... :p
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Unless you're the Falcon...or the Tantive IV...or... :p
Thats Vader, and they didnt use ion cannons, and werent interested in the things being usable after the fact.
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Yet, for some reason, the Empire mounts these things on their capital ships. There are also EU accounts where the imperial forces use ion cannons to disable and capture enemy craft. The Empire may be evil, but they aren't stupid.
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Unless you're the Falcon...or the Tantive IV...or... :p
Thats Vader, and they didnt use ion cannons, and werent interested in the things being usable after the fact.
???
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Who said anything about breaching hulls? That's what laser cannons are for. The Rebels aren't going to be able to commit a capship for every capship capture operation like the Imperials could.
just to point out the utter genius of your statement:
the energy has to make it through the hull(pretty much the definition of breach)
a fighter scale ion cannon will dissipate in the armour and wont do squat.
and further more, imperials dont capture ships, they destroy them.
trying to justify equipment capabilities because of force disposition is wrong. "im a good guy, and i have a pistol, you guys are ****ed even though theres a hundred of you and you all have assault rifles." if the previous sentence made no sense, it wasn,t supposed to. it is a paraphrase of your justification of a fighter being able to disable a capital ship.
yeah, the rebels can't spare shipsto capture other ships, but guess what, that's why they steal them from repair facilities. i dont think you realize it, but the ONLY reason the rebelion didnt get crushed, was because they RAN. they had inferior equipment and munitions, and were vastly outgunned and out numbered.
Ah I see, we have one of those types that doesn't appreciate smart-assery, but enough semantics...
Well, since I don't have a degree in physics, I'll let someone else handle the physics of the ion cannon.
General Tagge (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cassio_Tagge) doesn't think the Rebellion was ill-equipped. I do agree that stealth was their greatest weapon though. Even they knew they would've been annihilated if they didn't flee Yavin. They most certainly have their limits. However, greater numbers doesn't always equal superiority, but it certainly helps.
You've just described the Conservation of Ninjutsu, which makes perfect sense with what we saw in the movies! ^_^ I never said the Empire wouldn't have the same capabilities, and I never said a single fighter should be capable of disabling a ship the size of a Star Destroyer. I was merely arguing game mechanics, but believable game mechanics. I know that's pretty much a dirty word on here. We know the Rebels acquired many Nebulon B Frigates by defection or capture. Maybe there is no source other than the games of capturing anything larger than a Frigate, but I think the project needs to follow the universe just a little more loosely for the sake of variety and gameplay instead of strictly adhering to dogma. Well, the modders have the final say. It's up to them.
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If we stay with the standard FS way of doing these things, meaning that Fighters won't be able to destroy a capship, only specific subsystems, it's going to work allright, I believe.
As for the Rebels capturing Ships, for obvious reasons (personnel and maintenance, for example) they don't have that many Capships. The few they do have are either purpose built (like the MC-80), were captured in combat or defected outright. As for capturing, I think the biggest one they did catch was Lusankya (a SSD), but that was after the Battle of Endor. Before that, the Rebellion couldn't afford the big capships the Empire built (As one of the WEG sources put it, "A Star Destroyer is 800000 design mistakes waiting to be exploited"), and thus didn't even try to acquire them.