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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: portej05 on March 09, 2009, 10:30:05 am

Title: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: portej05 on March 09, 2009, 10:30:05 am
http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2494129.0.0.php (http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2494129.0.0.php)

Quote
PLANS TO refurbish Trident nuclear weapons had to be put on hold because US scientists forgot how to manufacture a component of the warhead, a US congressional investigation has revealed.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Kosh on March 09, 2009, 10:37:20 am
:lol:
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: karajorma on March 09, 2009, 10:53:22 am
They should ask the Russians. They probably have the plans somewhere. :D
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: redsniper on March 09, 2009, 11:59:07 am
No one thought to write that down... :nervous:
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: castor on March 09, 2009, 01:30:45 pm
Hoh! Let's just hope they don't start guessing.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: blackhole on March 09, 2009, 05:43:18 pm
I THINK THIS STYROFOAM I HAVE IN THE BACK OF MY CAR WILL WORK =D

*KABOOM*
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: FUBAR-BDHR on March 09, 2009, 05:45:43 pm
Where's Nuke when they need him?   :nervous:
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: TrashMan on March 09, 2009, 05:49:48 pm
Working for the Chinesee.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Bob-san on March 09, 2009, 05:51:13 pm
Will build thermonuclear devices for food.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Nuclear1 on March 09, 2009, 07:21:04 pm
Somebody call MacGyver!
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Galemp on March 09, 2009, 08:19:47 pm
Apparently it was so top secret, the hid the only plans, then couldn't find them again.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: TrashMan on March 09, 2009, 09:05:16 pm
Have they tried looking under the pillow?

"This weapon is so secret no one knows how it works!"
"Sir, what do you mean no one? Surely the people that put it together must know."
"What? And what if they are to be captured or tortured by the enemy! You are insane private!"
"But..."
"Do you want this weapon to fall into enemy hands?"
"But..how did we build it in the first place then?"
"It's a secret!"
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: BloodEagle on March 09, 2009, 09:27:52 pm
This kind of thing isn't new.  NASA forgot how to make a particular material, if memory serves.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: redsniper on March 09, 2009, 10:43:55 pm
.... What if.... What if we all forget how to build nukes, and then... then we forget how to maintain them, and they break down to the point that they're useless, so we dispose of them, and then no one has nukes and no one know how to make any more.... it'll never happen. :blah:
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: terran_emperor on March 10, 2009, 01:01:55 am
I can just imagine it.

General: We need 2 dozen Trident missiles. and We need them by next tuesday.
Scientist: We could have them ready by thursday...but there is one little tiny baby problem...
General: and what is that
Scientist: We forgot how to make them and no-one has the plans.
General: That's two problems...WHAAAAAT?!
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Nuke on March 10, 2009, 03:45:48 am
this is why plans to nuclear devices should be open source
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 10, 2009, 05:25:59 am
Should I be amused? :confused:
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Herra Tohtori on March 10, 2009, 05:52:26 am
Didn't the same thing (kinda) happen with F-14 Tomcat part molds? IIRC they were destroyed, making manufacture of large spare parts of the airframe prohibitively expensive, hence the decision to scrap F-14 and replace it with F/A-18 Super Hornets and F-35 Lightning II's (for the better or the worse). Can't remember what the details of this occurrence were specifically, though.

I can't help but feel that this kind of things don't happen by chance or accident, but politics.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Dilmah G on March 10, 2009, 05:58:25 am
 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



How the hell does this **** even happen
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Solatar on March 10, 2009, 10:28:52 am
And I always thought dystopian fiction that had people forgetting all of our old technology was improbable.

But this, coupled with ruins suggesting flush toilets and plumbing in the Ancient Indus Valley is enough to prove how fragile technological knowledge is.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Ziame on March 10, 2009, 12:18:03 pm
So THAT'S how the Atlantis city vanished!

"Um, sir, mr. Ruler-of-the-Atlantis, we forgot how to remain floating on water"
"What the <gulp>"
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Nuclear1 on March 10, 2009, 12:56:00 pm
how do i built nukes?

i dunno lol
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Herra Tohtori on March 10, 2009, 01:35:19 pm
I see your Trident missile problem and raise you the question - how many of you know how to smelt iron ore into steel and then bang it into a shape you need it to be? :p

If all CNC machines and other magical devices that produce parts for other machines suddenly ceased working, what would humanity do?
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: The E on March 10, 2009, 01:37:32 pm
Ask the Society for Creative Anachronism for help? :D
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: StarSlayer on March 10, 2009, 01:51:18 pm
Revenge of the Renaissance Fair

Remember to stock up on your Ballistae and Trebuchets http://siegethedayinc.com/default.aspx (http://siegethedayinc.com/default.aspx)
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: BengalTiger on March 10, 2009, 04:21:57 pm
.... What if.... What if we all forget how to build nukes, and then... then we forget how to maintain them, and they break down to the point that they're useless, so we dispose of them, and then no one has nukes and no one know how to make any more....

...We'd have some 4 or more world wars in our history by now.

If all CNC machines and other magical devices that produce parts for other machines suddenly ceased working, what would humanity do?

They'd call the repair guys to get them back online, duh...

And if that didn't work, our next cars would be Ford T's, available in any color as long as it's black.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Daniel P on March 10, 2009, 04:42:07 pm
If you don't know how to make Trident Missiles, reverse engineer them and learn to rebuild them.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: TrashMan on March 10, 2009, 06:13:22 pm
Didn't the same thing (kinda) happen with F-14 Tomcat part molds? IIRC they were destroyed, making manufacture of large spare parts of the airframe prohibitively expensive, hence the decision to scrap F-14 and replace it with F/A-18 Super Hornets and F-35 Lightning II's (for the better or the worse). Can't remember what the details of this occurrence were specifically, though.


Yes it did happen. AND I WILL NEVER FORGIVE!!!!!!! Scrapping the F-14 was SACRILIGE!
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: IceFire on March 10, 2009, 08:51:34 pm
F-14s were getting to the point like the F-15s of having airframe cracks and it was a matter of time before one of them broke up during a training exercise.  I loved the good ole Tomcat but its time has passed and so has the time for many of the old F-15 and F-16 airframes.  Soon the early F-18 airframes will be on the block too....these things only last so long.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: captain-custard on March 11, 2009, 05:25:31 am
I see your Trident missile problem and raise you the question - how many of you know how to smelt iron ore into steel and then bang it into a shape you need it to be? :p

If all CNC machines and other magical devices that produce parts for other machines suddenly ceased working, what would humanity do?

as too the first part of your question i can do that as for the cnc machines we did have the direct human operated versions for a long time before (not as fast i know ) but they have less down time due to crashes, and having worked in a engineering construction (steelwork) job , most of the difficulties come from ppl designs that are brilliant but absolute nightmares to make and could be way more simple

but for the trident issue im glad they arent being built atm
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Mefustae on March 11, 2009, 05:47:33 am
Someone really needs to start a knowledge preserve, somewhere. Like that Seed preserve in Northern Europe. We need to start engraving information into thick glass tablets that'll last through everything up to and including a nuclear holocaust. Housed within a fortified, hermetically sealed bunker in some remote but accessible and ultimately obvious region, like the top of Mount Kosciusko in Australia.


Or we could just print out every wiki article and keep them under our beds for warmth, safe in the knowledge that we're prepared.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: TrashMan on March 11, 2009, 06:40:39 am
F-14s were getting to the point like the F-15s of having airframe cracks and it was a matter of time before one of them broke up during a training exercise.  I loved the good ole Tomcat but its time has passed and so has the time for many of the old F-15 and F-16 airframes.  Soon the early F-18 airframes will be on the block too....these things only last so long.

I was refering more to the Super Tomcat project being canceled.
F'course if a fighter has been around long enough it will show stress of usage. That why you can build new units of the same type or more modern type.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: redsniper on March 11, 2009, 07:49:06 am
glass ... last through everything
:doubt:
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Charismatic on March 11, 2009, 12:40:05 pm
Somebody call MacGyver!

Seconded.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 11, 2009, 01:24:19 pm
F-14s were getting to the point like the F-15s of having airframe cracks and it was a matter of time before one of them broke up during a training exercise.

So you do what the Marines did with the AH-1Z and build a fleet of new airframes.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Grizzly on March 11, 2009, 02:44:20 pm
F-14s were getting to the point like the F-15s of having airframe cracks and it was a matter of time before one of them broke up during a training exercise.

So you do what the Marines did with the AH-1Z and build a fleet of new airframes.

Are the Tomcats really that great? This sounds like Windows re-selling Windows 95SE...
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: redsniper on March 11, 2009, 04:36:58 pm
They have swing-wings!
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Kosh on March 12, 2009, 01:15:06 am
F-14s were getting to the point like the F-15s of having airframe cracks and it was a matter of time before one of them broke up during a training exercise.  I loved the good ole Tomcat but its time has passed and so has the time for many of the old F-15 and F-16 airframes.  Soon the early F-18 airframes will be on the block too....these things only last so long.

I was refering more to the Super Tomcat project being canceled.
F'course if a fighter has been around long enough it will show stress of usage. That why you can build new units of the same type or more modern type.


Hate to say it but the Soviet Union is gone man.......
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Nuclear1 on March 12, 2009, 01:32:28 am
Yeah! Who needs a Super Tomcat?

*sweeps F35 and F22 under the rug*
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 12, 2009, 02:19:15 am
Hate to say it but the Soviet Union is gone man.......

The Backfires and the Badgers ain't.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Bob-san on March 12, 2009, 05:53:21 pm
It's a shame about the F-14. It had a lot of potential. For the cost of the new Raptor, you could have built something like a dozen new, modern, up-to-date Super Tomcats 21's or other variations. I'd say that would be a better use for the money--especially as a new generation could stay in development until it was ready and offered a major upgrade.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: SpardaSon21 on March 12, 2009, 09:04:02 pm
Don't forget the Phoenix missile - like a FS2 Trebuchet, except even longer ranged and even more powerful!  Way it is supposed to work is it ignites its engine, climbs, levels out, keeps going, targets the top of the enemy plane, and then slams down on it at several times the speed of sound.  And lets not forget it has a proximity warhead, so it almost never misses.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: The E on March 12, 2009, 09:18:44 pm
...and it weighed so much, that no Tomcat ever lifted off of a carrier deck carrying the full loadout of six, because if they weren't fired during a mission, the F-14 was too heavy for the arrestor cable.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Solatar on March 12, 2009, 09:29:21 pm
Long range missiles would be a lot better if it weren't for the fact that usually rules of engagement preclude attacking an aircraft before it is in visual range anyway.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: SpardaSon21 on March 12, 2009, 10:25:43 pm
Not if you're in a shooting war, which is the exact arena that weapons are designed for.  The RoE are different during war than peace.  By war, I mean all-out war with a modern nation-state, like the (now non-existent) Soviet Union or China.  And it is quite possible to identify enemy aircraft from BVR either by their emissions (all active radars have different signatures) or because they don't respond to challenges.  If they aren't emitting, don't respond to challenges, and are on a direct course for the carrier group, its safe to assume hostile intent.  Which is when you want your CAP of Tomcats to light off their Phoenix missiles before they blow up that multi-billion fleet of yours.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: General Battuta on March 12, 2009, 11:32:10 pm
Not if you're in a shooting war, which is the exact arena that weapons are designed for.  The RoE are different during war than peace.  By war, I mean all-out war with a modern nation-state, like the (now non-existent) Soviet Union or China.  And it is quite possible to identify enemy aircraft from BVR either by their emissions (all active radars have different signatures) or because they don't respond to challenges.  If they aren't emitting, don't respond to challenges, and are on a direct course for the carrier group, its safe to assume hostile intent.  Which is when you want your CAP of Tomcats to light off their Phoenix missiles before they blow up that multi-billion fleet of yours.

That's how an Aegis cruiser managed to shoot down an Iranian airliner. And it wasn't even in time of war!

Solatar's got a great point. Even not accounting for ROEs, most fights end up at visual range (and have been doing so for a very long time, in spite of predictions to the contrary.)

The Phoenix was, unfortunately, a big waste of money and space. And the Tomcat never handled well in ACM.

I really recommend playing Falcon 4.0. It demolished a lot of my myths about air combat -- especially when I had to fly allied operations alongside Eastern Bloc fighters in the hands of now-NATO countries.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 13, 2009, 12:49:28 am
Solatar's got a great point. Even not accounting for ROEs, most fights end up at visual range (and have been doing so for a very long time, in spite of predictions to the contrary.)

The Phoenix was, unfortunately, a big waste of money and space. And the Tomcat never handled well in ACM.

For the scenario and the threat it was designed for, the Tomcat/Phoenix combination was very capable. There's not going to much commercial air traffic flying around out there in the North Atlantic with the multiregiment Backfire raid.

The Tomcat-21 project would have produced a fighter on a par or better than the F-15E in every fashion. It would also have sidestepped the really crippling problem that the modern USN carrier air wing has: the Hornet's lack of range. By all reports the JSF when it gets around isn't going to be vastly better in this fashion. That was the real problem with sending the F-14s and A-6s to the boneyard, it shortened a carrier's reach dramatically.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: Dilmah G on March 13, 2009, 03:39:21 am
There's only so far you can push the Tomcat, I think in this case just starting a fresh was a good idea.
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: SPECTRE87 on March 13, 2009, 04:11:17 am
Fail   :blah:

I seriously doubt the article though, but if it's real, then it's Epic Fail...
Title: Re: The US 'forgets' how to make the Trident Missile
Post by: General Battuta on March 13, 2009, 10:47:27 am
Solatar's got a great point. Even not accounting for ROEs, most fights end up at visual range (and have been doing so for a very long time, in spite of predictions to the contrary.)

The Phoenix was, unfortunately, a big waste of money and space. And the Tomcat never handled well in ACM.

For the scenario and the threat it was designed for, the Tomcat/Phoenix combination was very capable. There's not going to much commercial air traffic flying around out there in the North Atlantic with the multiregiment Backfire raid.

The Tomcat-21 project would have produced a fighter on a par or better than the F-15E in every fashion. It would also have sidestepped the really crippling problem that the modern USN carrier air wing has: the Hornet's lack of range. By all reports the JSF when it gets around isn't going to be vastly better in this fashion. That was the real problem with sending the F-14s and A-6s to the boneyard, it shortened a carrier's reach dramatically.


I remember Tomcat CAPs in Harpoon were great because you could get your missiles off and RTB from quite a distance. Fuel was a big consideration in that game.