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Hosted Projects - Standalone => Diaspora => Topic started by: Hellstryker on March 20, 2009, 04:50:49 pm

Title: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Hellstryker on March 20, 2009, 04:50:49 pm
Making this ahead of time, since I've no doubts we'll have tons of these otherwise  :p.

God, time seems to be going by so slowly...
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Blue Lion on March 20, 2009, 08:14:29 pm
Spoiler:
Did Tigh say "God damn it" in the flashback?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: stumpjumper920 on March 20, 2009, 09:36:10 pm
Finally! A show that is ending in a halfway decent manor!  Shoulda known that wasn't the true earth!  haha!  Just excellent! 

-"You know he doesn't like being called that."

What the FRAK does that mean!!!!
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Hellstryker on March 20, 2009, 10:19:37 pm
I didn't think it was possible. But they did it. Every loose end was tied up. Every one. That was... Epic? Ama- Frak it, I lack the words. You all know what I mean.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: iamzack on March 20, 2009, 10:20:45 pm
OMGWTFBBQ

were drunk, but yes, good ending. excelltent ending. exxxcellent. excellent. yeah.

but... angels? gosh. I am having touched by an angel flashbacks now. blrgh.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: TripRussell8142 on March 20, 2009, 10:23:37 pm
A great ending of an excellent series!!   :(  :cool:
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Furyofaseraph on March 20, 2009, 10:24:19 pm
THAT WAS ABSOFRAKINGLUTELY INCREDIBLE!

So Kara became another being of light or angel, like all the virtual beings we know about. Lee is all alone... poor guy. I hate how they had adama wait till she was dead before she got the ring... its too sad.

"You know he doesn't like being called that" ... THAT blew my mind.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: iamzack on March 20, 2009, 10:32:58 pm
So i guess starbuck was never there? just a group hallucination? and then both the baltar and heather hallucinations were... angels...

was the implication that we made the same goddamn mistake at the end, what with all the robots and ****?

Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Furyofaseraph on March 20, 2009, 10:36:08 pm
Well let's recap... we know of 9 Angels, so far.

 - Virtual Baltar
 - Virtual Six
 - Virtual Leobon (that appears to Kara as she dies)
 - Virtual Elosha (that appears to Roslin while shes jumping to destroy the Hub)
 - the 5 that appeared to the Final Five that told them to go to the 12 colonies to stop the cycle.

I think that when Kara died, she became one of them, but she still had work to do. So she went back and sort of 'forgot' what she was... she took on human form, and when all the things she had to do were done, she remembered, and joined the others.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: iamzack on March 20, 2009, 10:37:02 pm
that's more like a ghost than an angel...
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Blue Lion on March 20, 2009, 10:38:32 pm
Side note, Cavil on Galactica was hilarious.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Furyofaseraph on March 20, 2009, 10:48:36 pm
that's more like a ghost than an angel...

Well, were I in Lee's shoes, I would imagine that it might be hard to make a distinction, not even worht trying, I think, between an Angel and a Ghost.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Angreifer on March 20, 2009, 11:10:53 pm
Absolutely frakking amazing. Ron Moore did not disappoint (nice cameo, btw). As the episode unfolded, I found myself going "Oh, I get that now! And that! It all makes sense!" The battle was epic, and the ending was very satisfying. I think they went a little over the top at the very end, with Hendrix's "All Along the Watchtower" and the montage of robots. But I like that they tied the series back to the overall message, that all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again. I guess the question is, will we as humanity break the cycle this time?

One final salute to the Battlestar Galactica, finest ship in the fleet.

Edit: Also, I concur that Kara was an angel ever since she dove into the maelstrom. It was her destiny to die, so that she could return as an angel and lead the fleet to its end. With her task complete, she left.

Another edit: Btw, looking forward to playing the Battle of the Black Hole in Diaspora.  ;7
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Furyofaseraph on March 20, 2009, 11:25:25 pm
Another edit: Btw, looking forward to playing the Battle of the Black Hole in Diaspora.  ;7

I completely agree. I hope that support for this project does not diminish with the end of the show.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: General Battuta on March 20, 2009, 11:26:31 pm
That was everything I wanted and a bit more.

I guess they were saving their CGI budget for those EIGHT BILLION awesome Centurions.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Angreifer on March 20, 2009, 11:54:21 pm
It occurs to me, one thing that wasn't explained was who the pianist was. I mean, it's supposed that it was Kara's dad. But did he appear to her as an angel? If she was an angel also, was it to guide her? Or maybe the pianist was a manifestation of God himself? Or, whatever he likes to be called.  :p
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Furyofaseraph on March 20, 2009, 11:55:26 pm
I'd be okay with him being either one, the god or the angel. I forgot to add him to that list >.<

I'm willing to bed that its not even that the angel or god used kara's father's image to come to kara, but was in fact kara's father from the beginning.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Angreifer on March 20, 2009, 11:59:59 pm
Possibly. It's one of those things I think we'll never know. I think it's safe to surmise that Kara at that point was metaphysical though. And clearly God has had a guiding hand in everything from the beginning.

Also, minor edit for the thread title, this was technically Episode 22, not 21.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: ajax-wounds on March 21, 2009, 12:03:43 am
good ending except for the destruction of the fleet, they should of dismantled it for good and used it for settlements, that way they could keep in contact easier, i get RDM wanting to fit them into out past etc, but i mean common, sieriously ??
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Hellstryker on March 21, 2009, 12:10:01 am
Possibly. It's one of those things I think we'll never know. I think it's safe to surmise that Kara at that point was metaphysical though. And clearly God has had a guiding hand in everything from the beginning.

Also, minor edit for the thread title, this was technically Episode 22, not 21.

22 part 2 doesn't make any sense though.  :wtf: Well, whatever, doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Blue Lion on March 21, 2009, 12:11:23 am
good ending except for the destruction of the fleet, they should of dismantled it for good and used it for settlements, that way they could keep in contact easier, i get RDM wanting to fit them into out past etc, but i mean common, sieriously ??

Yes, I can see people wanting to break away from their old life, the ships they were in forever.

Nothing on those ships was really going to last anyways. The only thing they were good for were shelter and I'm sure everyone was sick of living in ships.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Angreifer on March 21, 2009, 12:33:03 am
22 part 2 doesn't make any sense though.  :wtf: Well, whatever, doesn't matter.

Well, the way these things are numbered, this episode was separate from last week's. It is however Part 2 of a specific storyline. 
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Blue Lion on March 21, 2009, 12:41:37 am
(http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv359/BlueLion/choke.jpg)

Quick and dirty  :nervous:
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Angreifer on March 21, 2009, 12:48:59 am
(http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv359/BlueLion/choke.jpg)

Quick and dirty  :nervous:

I approve this message. And the answer is, Yes, he does.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: General Battuta on March 21, 2009, 12:59:50 am
If he hadn't done that...d'you think Cavil would've just taken the resurrection data and blown Galactica apart? Hera and all?

I get the sense he might have.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Blue Lion on March 21, 2009, 01:07:58 am
If they were smart they would have kept him on the ship and then let him go later.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Mr. R on March 21, 2009, 01:17:08 am
I really hate to bring this up but this is the one thing that makes me wonder...

Isn't there more cylons?  Like one more?  I'm thinking of the woman in the goo-tub who controls the base-ships.  If she's not a cylon, what is she?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ace on March 21, 2009, 01:25:40 am
Absolutely frakking amazing. Ron Moore did not disappoint (nice cameo, btw). As the episode unfolded, I found myself going "Oh, I get that now! And that! It all makes sense!" The battle was epic, and the ending was very satisfying. I think they went a little over the top at the very end, with Hendrix's "All Along the Watchtower" and the montage of robots. But I like that they tied the series back to the overall message, that all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again. I guess the question is, will we as humanity break the cycle this time?

The very end with the dialog and the montage was a bit heavy-handed for my tastes. The same purpose could have been served by simply having the Cylon theme play and Baltar/Six in the center of the crowd with it moving around them as if they're not there and on one of the bilboards a Centurion-esque product is advertised before a final taiko drum and fade to black.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Blue Lion on March 21, 2009, 01:37:04 am
Absolutely frakking amazing. Ron Moore did not disappoint (nice cameo, btw). As the episode unfolded, I found myself going "Oh, I get that now! And that! It all makes sense!" The battle was epic, and the ending was very satisfying. I think they went a little over the top at the very end, with Hendrix's "All Along the Watchtower" and the montage of robots. But I like that they tied the series back to the overall message, that all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again. I guess the question is, will we as humanity break the cycle this time?

The very end with the dialog and the montage was a bit heavy-handed for my tastes. The same purpose could have been served by simply having the Cylon theme play and Baltar/Six in the center of the crowd with it moving around them as if they're not there and on one of the bilboards a Centurion-esque product is advertised before a final taiko drum and fade to black.

I think that would have been worse.

Anything Cylon in modern day would have been picked apart forever.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Unknown Target on March 21, 2009, 02:48:34 am
Quote
The very end with the dialog and the montage was a bit heavy-handed for my tastes. The same purpose could have been served by simply having the Cylon theme play and Baltar/Six in the center of the crowd with it moving around them as if they're not there and on one of the bilboards a Centurion-esque product is advertised before a final taiko drum and fade to black.

Yea, that would have been much worse, and honestly, would have connotated a completely different ending than the one we got. What you're suggesting basically is saying "Yea, all that was for nothing because look! The Cylons are coming back!' When in reality the point of the end of the show was that they had broken the cycle.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Mr. R on March 21, 2009, 04:13:54 am
How did the end of the show, show that the cycle was broken?  I must have missed something.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: karajorma on March 21, 2009, 05:23:37 am
It didn't show that the cycle was broken. Simply that it might have been broken. Humanity has to learn to do exactly what Ellen said the final five wanted to teach humanity to do. We have to make sure we don't enslave AIs and instead try to live with them peacefully. That's how the cycle will be broken.

I did like how they let the centurions go though. Gives them another spin off series if they want. CENTURIONS IN SPAAAAACCCCCEEEE!!! :p
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Blue Lion on March 21, 2009, 05:33:08 am
How did the end of the show, show that the cycle was broken?  I must have missed something.

It didn't show the cycle was broken, but it didn't really say it had started over.

I think a bit of Cylon in the Times Square bit would be like saying "here we go again!" which is exactly the opposite of what they wanted
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: karajorma on March 21, 2009, 05:40:20 am
Exactly. They wanted to end the series on the hope that the same mistake might not be made. Having a recognisable Cylon would be the exact opposite message.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: stumpjumper920 on March 21, 2009, 05:54:36 am
I'm kinda excited for next fall too, I guess we should have guessed with the whole are you human or are you cylon ad campaign, but it might be kinda cool to see BSG from the cylon point of view.  Plus maybe a couple cylon mission ideas for Diaspora?  ;7  Ok and did anyone else think Husker was gonna crash the Raptor or something after Roslin died, that was just a really weird good bye with his son...
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: newman on March 21, 2009, 07:57:42 am
Now that is how you end the best show on TV! And the ending.. the decision to do away with the galactica, fleet, battles, all that stuff halfway through was incredibly brave. And it worked so well, too.. I laughed my ass off when I saw RDM holding that magazine in one of the final scenes :D
I find it funny that the whole Cavil's Cylon civilization dies because chief couldn't wait 5 mins for his revenge.. but I understand why he did it. As Tigh said.. I'd have done the same frakkin' thing. Both Tori and Cavil did have it coming. 'Neways... now that I've seen it whole, I can honestly say that this is the best Sci Fi series I have ever seen.

Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: CKid on March 21, 2009, 08:33:50 am
I didn't know a raptor could hold so many nukes.  :D
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Locutus of Borg on March 21, 2009, 08:37:42 am
Two things I need explained:

- 'Earth', wasn't it eradicated? Wherever they were in this episode, it was not the Earth of the 13th tribe
- You know he doesn't like being called that ?????????????
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Furyofaseraph on March 21, 2009, 08:56:58 am
Two things I need explained:

- 'Earth', wasn't it eradicated? Wherever they were in this episode, it was not the Earth of the 13th tribe
- You know he doesn't like being called that ?????????????

 - The planet that the settled on wasn't the earth that the 13th colony settled on. Out of pure frustration they called this planet Earth, just because.
 - i have no idea.


I wonder if they cylon centurions were waiting off in space somewhere, waiting for us to join them once again.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Locutus of Borg on March 21, 2009, 09:06:21 am
Did the ability to see heads Baltar and Six get passed on?

It looked like they were really there, not as angels. Over 150,000 years it's pretty likely that everyone has some of Baltar and/or Six's DNA.

Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Furyofaseraph on March 21, 2009, 09:26:16 am
Being able to see the virtual beings was not a genetic trait. They just chose to reveal themselves to certain people. Again I mention:

 - Virtual Six to baltar
 - virtual baltar to six
 - virtual elosha to roslin
 - virtual leoben to starbuck
 - virtual slick to starbuck
 - the five virtual beings that appeared to the final five telling them to go to the colonies.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Locutus of Borg on March 21, 2009, 09:32:12 am
If they hadn't revealed themselves to everyone else, what were they doing for the past 150,000 years?

Sure, sex is nice, but for 150,000 years?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Furyofaseraph on March 21, 2009, 09:35:47 am
If they hadn't revealed themselves to everyone else, what were they doing for the past 150,000 years?

Sure, sex is nice, but for 150,000 years?

I don't understand....

If they are beings of light, who says they experience time the same way we do? I think you're over thinking it. We're not going to understand the angels. we're not supposed to.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Locutus of Borg on March 21, 2009, 09:52:35 am
I guess not

One thing that bothered me about the episode were the commercials every five minutes! xD

What was the importance of the opera house? All it did was lead Hera, Caprica, and Baltar to the CIC

The preview for Caprica looks to be a bit disappointing; doesn't have the same dark feeling as BSG does. I don't know how they're going to make a show based on the premise that I've seen.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: TESLA on March 21, 2009, 10:02:48 am
What an ending!!!!!

I thought that was absolutely brilliant!! An amazing ending!!!!

Wonder what became of the Cylons?
The Cylon Vs Cylon fight scenes were sooooo cool!
Like the very end scene, the future of robotics

Wondering if the Caprica scenes were simply to judge our reaction to the new show (although its set in the a lot more in the past)

Was Head Six an Angel and Head Baltar a Demon?

Wonder if Anders actually destroyed the fleet…….

It all basically makes sense  

I am well impressed

The fight scenes were amazing. Music was brilliant. Acting was memorising.
Think that could be my favourite episode of all time

So Earth really was paradise…

What does the future hold for us humans?
New breed of Cylons?

All that has happened before, it could happen again….
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: FSW on March 21, 2009, 10:17:07 am
I think this episode could have done without the last two minutes tying into the 'real world', making such a blunt cautionary tale. It wasn't enough to ruin a mostly-satisfying ending, though.

EDIT: A few thoughts, that I suspended while watching:

- None of the potential 'dying leaders' didn't make it to New Earth.
- Why was the opera house projection so important and forshadow-worthy? The role of Baltar and Caprica Six in getting Hera to the CIC was very minor, compared to all the other things that happened to the girl. In fact, what was so important about Hera? Why couldn't anyone else be the mitochondrial Eve? Was she just a rallying symbol for leading Galactica to the final battle?
- The nature of Starbuck and the motives of the 'Head angels' were left unexplained, which is diappointing, considering how much of the series was invested in these mysteries. 'Something has been guiding us all along' is nothing that hasn't been said before.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: IceFire on March 21, 2009, 10:46:48 am
Well that was a great ending. Enjoy it although yes the last couple of minutes was a tad bit heavy handed but I liked it nonethless.

I'd say Diaspora has some work to do with that final space battle to end all space battles!
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: --Steve-O-- on March 21, 2009, 10:52:15 am
Awesome all the way through. The one thing that kinda nags me (but makes sense that they did it) was the disposal of the whole fleet. i honestly would have parked Galactica in orbit around saturn or one of the other more distant planets in this solar system as a testament to the journey they made. it would also serve as link to our past that would be out of reach until we can reach it again. thats just me though, i think it kinda sucks that 150,000 years later nobody remembers where we came from, the people that made the journey and a beat to hell battlestar named Galactica. but like i said i understand why they did it.

sentiments aside..........the battle KICKED ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Toaster on toaster combat, nukes, a pissed off Chief.....what more could you ask for?

yup....thats my 2 cents worth right there.

Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ace on March 21, 2009, 11:01:34 am
Absolutely frakking amazing. Ron Moore did not disappoint (nice cameo, btw). As the episode unfolded, I found myself going "Oh, I get that now! And that! It all makes sense!" The battle was epic, and the ending was very satisfying. I think they went a little over the top at the very end, with Hendrix's "All Along the Watchtower" and the montage of robots. But I like that they tied the series back to the overall message, that all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again. I guess the question is, will we as humanity break the cycle this time?

The very end with the dialog and the montage was a bit heavy-handed for my tastes. The same purpose could have been served by simply having the Cylon theme play and Baltar/Six in the center of the crowd with it moving around them as if they're not there and on one of the bilboards a Centurion-esque product is advertised before a final taiko drum and fade to black.

I think that would have been worse.

Anything Cylon in modern day would have been picked apart forever.

That wasn't the point, the point was having it be "show not tell." Something a bit more subtle as opposed to hitting the audience over the head with a "The More You Know" message at the end.

If they wanted to break the fourth wall, then they should have had the main cast sitting in chairs in the middle of times square saying:

*150,000 years later*
"Hello, I'm Edward James Olmos."
"Hi, I'm James Callis"
"If you haven't figured out over the past four years that Battlestar Galactica is a cautionary tale."
"Then you should go and ****ing shoot yourself."
"In the long run, your species will thank you."
"...and so will your robots."
"Wait, did you say the F-word? On television? That'll get us pulled off the air!"
*Cut to black*
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Morwen on March 21, 2009, 11:54:16 am
Turns out Baltar (more likely his later reincarnation) is Jesus, after all

Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: tikey on March 21, 2009, 12:24:11 pm
It was a lovely touch the TOS music as the fleet flew to the sun.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: ajax-wounds on March 21, 2009, 01:13:31 pm
I think this episode could have done without the last two minutes tying into the 'real world', making such a blunt cautionary tale. It wasn't enough to ruin a mostly-satisfying ending, though.

EDIT: A few thoughts, that I suspended while watching:

- None of the potential 'dying leaders' didn't make it to New Earth.


well if you think about it, it did come true, roslin didnt live to see her new home, home doesnt nescesseraly mean planet :). home was where her and adama would live in his cabin, kinda sad really
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Hellstryker on March 21, 2009, 01:28:42 pm
It was a lovely touch the TOS music as the fleet flew to the sun.

That's been heard before. Tis the Colonial Anthem, first heard in season 2.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Angreifer on March 21, 2009, 01:46:11 pm
Turns out Baltar (more likely his later reincarnation) is Jesus, after all



Rather, Baltar is the first Jew, if he is actually the founder of monotheism on our Earth.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: a50callovenote on March 21, 2009, 02:01:50 pm
That was a great show! what better way to end a tale than to wage a massive battle in a black hole, find out your friends are 1000s of years old....and probably a figment of your imagination. Then move in with some cavewomen, smoke a splif(which i thought Roslyn was gonna do before she passed.) on a new planet while your ships fly into a star. nice. But isnt there one more cylon that is suppose to be reviled? and could he/she be the one head baltar was saying didnt like to be called 'that'?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: The E on March 21, 2009, 02:11:06 pm
AFAIK, all cylons have been revealed. "Daniel" hasn't been seen, and RDM stated in one of his podcasts that he wouldn't be seen, as he was killed off for real long before the series started.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: BlackDove on March 21, 2009, 02:41:21 pm
They really tacked it on with the mystic bull**** a lot, but I felt it was a great ending, and it left me completely satisfied.

I guess I was always expecting them to do the smart thing and explain the "god has a plan blah blah blah" religious crap, but the final episode proved that they stuck to their guns, and the religious crap was what they were going for from the start. Cheapened the whole thing a bit, but like I said, I didn't mind, episode was good regardless.

Enjoy your campaign meaning something to the fans now that you have to get God and predestination in on it.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ace on March 21, 2009, 02:50:38 pm
Well, my main disappointment was my hope that an "open ended ending" meant that there was going to be the mystical explanation "god did it" and also a possible materialistic explanation. Such as a throwaway line that The Colony was... very old, was happened upon by the Cylons, and despite the upgrades Cavil made to it was still largely a mystery. Then tossing in a scene where there's possible ambiguity that the Cylon god, angels, and Kara all could be machinations of The Colony, or that the Cylon god used the Colony as an instrument, before Cavil returned to it.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Axem on March 21, 2009, 03:42:00 pm
For the most part, I really liked it. Just a few nitpicks though.

I thought the whole opera house scene explanation was a bit drab. "Oh yeah you know that grandiose scene we've been gradually referring to for 4 years? It just meant go to CIC. That's all." What. :confused:

Also why didn't Galactica jump out as soon as Hera and all the birds were on board? We're they waiting for a respawn delay or something? :p

And then after all of that death and work, the 5 just go "Hey, we'll give you rezzing if you leave us alone" "Sure why not". It seemed a little contrived to me. However seeing Cavil eating a bullet, and seeing the chief choke the *****, made up for that.

The very end with all the robots was a bit cheesy, but I probably would've rolled my eyes at seeing a Cylon-like product anywhere.

However the question remains, which of the colony ships had the hairdressers and phone sanitizers? (Or was that the tribal people who actually found Earth first?)

EDIT: Also, to repeat what I said in IRC: LEE GET A HAIR CUT YOU HIPPIE!
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: BlackDove on March 21, 2009, 03:51:18 pm
The Opera scene was the confirmation of predestination as it relates between key people. It's the mystic bull**** I was referring to. It was meant to show how it's all been already set in stone, and the actors were just playing their parts faithfully, or to put it better, "how it all comes true in the end".

I think most of us wanted all that stuff to be more and have a better meaning, but it just wasn't. And that's fine, I mean, considering our entire species practices mass delusion in fantastic numbers on a daily basis, it's not like the show was catering that aspect to me, or people like me. A lot of the final episode, and Galactica in general now that we can look at it as a whole, was meant to straddle the line, entertain all sorts of people who believe or don't believe in things.

Just have to accept some things are not FOR you. At least, these aspects of the show were not for me. I can't speak for any of you.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: tikey on March 21, 2009, 04:21:47 pm
It was a lovely touch the TOS music as the fleet flew to the sun.

That's been heard before. Tis the Colonial Anthem, first heard in season 2.

I know, but it was a lovely touch to use it in that particular moment, regardless of having heard it before.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Blue Lion on March 21, 2009, 04:24:06 pm
Roslin introduces cancer to Earth.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Axem on March 21, 2009, 04:24:30 pm
I don't expect the show to cater to my every whim. However it gets a little clear on how the writers are trying to cram an means to the end they've been revealing for the past 4 years. But just its a small nitpick, it doesn't destroy my love for the show and I thought it was a very fitting end.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Unknown Target on March 21, 2009, 04:26:40 pm
I think they might have been images sent through time? I know that's a bit sci fi for BSG, but it's the only thing I could think of. And "God" is really just a person.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: a50callovenote on March 21, 2009, 04:27:19 pm

[/quote]
The Opera scene was the confirmation of predestination as it relates between key people. It's the mystic bull**** I was referring to. It was meant to show how it's all been already set in stone, and the actors were just playing their parts faithfully, or to put it better, "how it all comes true in the end".

I think most of us wanted all that stuff to be more and have a better meaning, but it just wasn't. And that's fine, I mean, considering our entire species practices mass delusion in fantastic numbers on a daily basis, it's not like the show was catering that aspect to me, or people like me. A lot of the final episode, and Galactica in general now that we can look at it as a whole, was meant to straddle the line, entertain all sorts of people who believe or don't believe in things.

Just have to accept some things are not FOR you. At least, these aspects of the show were not for me. I can't speak for any of you.
   
not to get off topic....
I think mysticism is just to state the human imagination that drives us forward to understanding. Its natural for the mind to fill in the gaps.  The problem is when people dont realize they cant force their personal perspectives on others. rather taking in account of differences in understandings and maybe seizing the opportunity to see multiple perspectives. Mysticism may be a way to answer the questions that some paths of reason can not.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Dark Knight on March 21, 2009, 04:55:54 pm
Okay, I only had one problem with the whole episode, it was something that pulled me out of it and its something that bugs me every time it happens in a show. You know the way sometimes when a CGI team or artist has worked on such-and-such and so throws a ship from another show into background of a shot and it's a nice easter egg? Well that's okay. Like the when Enterprise can be faintly seen in some of the RTF shots in Season 1.

Well sometimes they don't leave these things in the back of shot. Sometimes they drop the easter eggs in centre frame and It's really jarring. A Key example of this is in the mini-series with the cameo appearance of Serenity. Well in this the final episode of Galactica they did it again. At about the 14 minute mark, during the segue into the “Admiral Hoshi” scene, the Kodiak, the ship from Command & Conquer 2: Tibirium Sun can be clearly seen as the camera pans through the fleet.

Other than that this is probably the best ending episode I've ever seen in a series, and best of all, as we didn't see much of the Viper action Diaspora has a clean slate :D

Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Angreifer on March 21, 2009, 05:37:16 pm
The Opera House to me wasn't predestination in the slightest. It was prophecy. At no point was it a prophecy that was certain to come to pass, but because of the choices that people made, it did. It was those choices that gave Cylons and Humans a chance to end the cycle.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: BlackDove on March 21, 2009, 06:44:08 pm
Mysticism may be a way to answer the questions that some paths of reason can not.

(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9525/loldv.jpg)

I'm sorry, I'm not that advanced so as to take mysticism as fact for the missing pieces of logic. If you can do that though, and treat it as an acceptable existence, hats off to you.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Herra Tohtori on March 21, 2009, 07:28:10 pm
I liked the ending.

Here's my interpretation of Colonial-Cylon history as it relates to the show.

In the Great Cycle's beginning, humans evolved in Earth. They evolved, had first contact with Lords of Kobol (either an alien race which would explain the Deus Ex Machinas in the show, or Cylons variant of humanoid species). They ended up being deported to Kobol to live with their new overlords. Alternatively they ended up colonizing the Kobol, and abandoned Earth to be populated by artificial race of humanoids (cylon skinjobs), but as there's still need for a third party to explain some things, I think this is more unlikely.

At some point, there was some event that forced the Kobol to be abandoned. My guess would be the Disease that ended up destroying majority of the Cylon population. Human complement of the planet was sent away to populate the Twelve Colonies, while the 13th tribe (lords of Kobol aka skinjob cylon (sub)species) travelled to Earth and took over as the dominant species of the planet for several thousand years. There they continued to develope their technology, figured out or re-discovered resurrection, had a nuclear holocaust with themselves, and only five of them got resurrected onboard the Cylon Colony (presumably an orbital habitat at the time) and started their travel towards the 12 Colonies.

At this point the Imperious Leader or Powers that Be - which are an unknown factor at the time and most likely source for the avatars that appear to some people, as well as responsible for anomalies such as Kara Thrace's second life and the Watchtower-related stuff - either formed a plan to start anew, or alternatively the cycle started from the beginning.

Kara's Watchtower co-ordinates made the FTL drive into a time machine. Basically FTL drive would be a 4-dimensional vector manipulator instead of just three-dimensional, and in fact the reason why such apparently complex calculus is needed for preparing jumps is to keep the timeframe constant. The co-ordinates fed to Kara Thrace the Second (and the final Five at some point, they just didn't end up figuring it out entirely) ended up moving the fleet to Earth as it was 150000 years ago on this reality's timeframe (as it's depicted in the show). It's possible that the Cylon Centurions on the Base ship ended up in Kobol, and developed themselves into biomechanical humanoid form. Or, they become the unknown Third Party for the next cycle, should it start again. That would suggest that the unknown third party in the series would be the remnants of the cylon faction from the last cycle (or whatever they like to be called with).

Why then is the Earth they ended up the same Earth that they discovered nuked to oblivion earlier in the series? Why, constellations and continents of course. I don't recall we saw the continental features of the Earth that Was when they found it "first" time; however we know that the constellations are a match to what we're seeing on night sky right now. On the other hand we saw the map of the Earth that Is very clearly on multiple occasion and it is, without any lingering doubt, Earth. And it is unreasonable to assume that there would be a planet with same continental features somewhere else in the universe - possible, but unlikely.

So this leads me to conclude that the Earth they found in this final episode is the same Earth, but on earlier time. The Unknown Third Party is probably Imperious Leader of the cylon survivors from the last cycle, and apparently doesn't want to be called God. :p

Kara Thrace's disappearance at the end of the show is free to interpretations; mine is that Lee's monologue took longer than he thought and Kara simply walked away... somewhere. Another is that he really disappeared, having fulfilled her purpose.

As to what comes to her father learning her to play that song and therefore being related to Daniel... two words, implanted memories. The pianist in the bar was, in my interpretation, a projection similar to Head-Baltar, Head-Six, Head-Elosha et al. Kara was likely just picked by the Imperious Leader to be a contingency plan in case the Final Five failed to break the cycle (which they did thanks to Galen snapping Tori's neck); she's been seeing things for a long time starting from the Eye of the Jupiter drawings and ending up in the Watchtower popping up from her subconscious as a "memory". There's no real evidence that she ever learned that song from her father besides what she says, and she can't really be trusted on this.

Head Leoben's nature is a mystery; either he was actually a result of psychological damage done to Kara in New Caprica, or a genuine projection resulting from Imperious Leader messing up with Kara before the series even started.

It's also possible - though not necessarily - that Baltar was also resurrected after the initial nuclear strike. That would explain his ability to project the Head-Six, although she could just as well be a messenger of the Imperious Leader. Or maybe ability to project can be transmitted via bodily fluids... :nervous:

Roslin... well, she obviously had visions in the very beginning of the show with Snakes on Colonial One and all that jazz, but I would be willing to blame the Chamalla extract and other herbal products for that. Does anyone recall if she actually had the ability to project before or after Hera's hybrid blood made the cancer go into remission?

"Harbinger of Death" probably refers more to her having gone through death than leading humanity to destruction.


Any other threads to tie into nice clean knot? ;)


EDIT: Why is this post being shown in several font sizes?  :eek2:

EDIT2: D'oh. Can't use (sub) in bracket parentheses...
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: a50callovenote on March 21, 2009, 08:19:51 pm

Mysticism may be a way to answer the questions that some paths of reason can not.


I'm sorry, I'm not that advanced so as to take mysticism as fact for the missing pieces of logic. If you can do that though, and treat it as an acceptable existence, hats off to you.
right on.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: The E on March 21, 2009, 08:50:52 pm
*really long theory*

Not bad at all. However, your theory uses time travel, something that we don't know is possible in the BSG universe. If it were, and if it was as easy as picking the right FTL Coordinates, then it would have been used, and there is no evidence of that.

My personal theory is that the Lords of Kobol (or whatever the third party really is) are more like transcendent, strongly superhuman AIs that evolved on Kobol as part of a hard singularity. They deported and de-technified the Humans to what would then become the 13 Colonies, in order to allow them to live in peace. The Cylons were the first to recreate the circumstances for a hard AI takeoff, which resultet in the destruction of Earth 1. 2000 years after that, the Humans were also once again able to manufacture AI on a large scale, with the consequence being the first cylon war. After that, the Lords of Kobol decided that Humanity needed some more direct intervention in order to ensure its survival, thus the "Angels" were created to subtly guide events in the right direction.
Now, I don't know why these Godlike beings decided that Humanity was worthy of survival, but then I'm no God (or TV-Show writer)...
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Herra Tohtori on March 21, 2009, 09:13:59 pm
*really long theory*

Not bad at all. However, your theory uses time travel, something that we don't know is possible in the BSG universe. If it were, and if it was as easy as picking the right FTL Coordinates, then it would have been used, and there is no evidence of that.

I know, and I don't like bringing time travel into it either.

But, the way I see it, it's either that or a massive cosmic plot hole in the astronomy of Galactica; The constellations they were seeing on the Kobol's Earth-simulator and on Earth as they found it nuked were the same as we see now, which is 150000 years from the series ending point and them founding another earth.

If the Earth they found first was the original one and constellations haven't drifted too far from present-day configuration, and the Earth they found at the end of the series was a different planet in different place but no timetravel involved, then the logical conclusion is that all this is happening in the Hitchiker's Guide to Galaxy universe and the other Earth has been made by Magratheans or something completely different.

It's also a vague possibility that the "Earth" they first found was not actually Earth but some planet "close enough" on galactic scene not to cause too much distortions on the constellations, but I find that unlikely at best.

Time travel, unfortunately, is the simplest way to explain how they found an Earth in a location with matching constellations, and later found another planet with matching continents and no nuclear holocaust history (or much else either). I guess we should just be happy that no hoverbikes were involved. :nervous:

Magratheans aren't a better explanation either (YMMV). :p


As to time travel being possible... I would guess that you would need to feed very very specific 4-vector inputs into the interface in order not to cause bad things to happen. Kara Thrace and the First Five had this information in the form of the Watchtower... or alternatively, Kara just had the information and thought it was hidden in the song (and in reality the song was just a subconscious access point to the information).

Weak points of the theory of time travel are:

-going to past is impossible based on General Relativity. Establishing a connection to future via time-differentiated wormhole is hypothetically possible, and traveling through an established wormhole from future to present may be possible, but all this is just speculation.

-A raptor was able to jump into the rendezvous co-ordinates from Earth 2, which suggests they were within Raptor range in 3-dimensional space and more importantly, likely that they were still on the same timeline and timeframe as well. Unless FTL as a time machine can jump between timelines (or alternate universes if you will) in addition to just back and forward in it's own timeline.

-time travel sucks as an explanation


Anyhow... either someone fails astronomy forever (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouFailAstronomyForever) which unfortunately might be the more probable reason for the plot hole (it wouldn't be unheard of either, remember Lagoon Nebula as the first leg towards Earth way back then...), or there's time travel involved.

The ending left a lot open for interpretation while still giving closure to the most of the things we wanted to know. The biggest thing I would've wanted to know is who resurrected Kara Thrace, and who was responsible for "encoding" information into "Watchtower"...
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: The E on March 21, 2009, 09:27:07 pm

I know, and I don't like bringing time travel into it either.

But, the way I see it, it's either that or a massive cosmic plot hole in the astronomy of Galactica; The constellations they were seeing on the Kobol's Earth-simulator and on Earth as they found it nuked were the same as we see now, which is 150000 years from the series ending point and them founding another earth.

If the Earth they found first was the original one and constellations haven't drifted too far from present-day configuration, and the Earth they found at the end of the series was a different planet in different place but no timetravel involved, then the logical conclusion is that all this is happening in the Hitchiker's Guide to Galaxy universe and the other Earth has been made by Magratheans or something completely different.

It's also a vague possibility that the "Earth" they first found was not actually Earth but some planet "close enough" on galactic scene not to cause too much distortions on the constellations, but I find that unlikely at best.

Time travel, unfortunately, is the simplest way to explain how they found an Earth in a location with matching constellations, and later found another planet with matching continents and no nuclear holocaust history (or much else either). I guess we should just be happy that no hoverbikes were involved. :nervous:

Magratheans aren't a better explanation either (YMMV). :p

The problem with time travel in your theory is that it propably would need to work in both directions, since Kara's jump coordinates were propably not the pre-agreed rendezvous coordinates. The way i see it, Galactica jumped to Earth, then sent a Raptor to rendezvous with the fleet. The Fleet then jumped to Earth. The problem is that jump coordinates are dependent on the location you are jumping from (established in 2x1, IIRC), meaning that whatever enabled the time travelling for Galactica must have been worked into the Fleet's jump coordinates. That's just my fridge logic, of course. For me, anything involving time travel in the BSG universe is plain wrong. I've had enough of that particular subject since Star Trek, and I don't want it to intrude on my BSG enjoyment.

EDIT: Damn. All those points, and then you go making them yourself. That is not nice. I guess the reason for the plothole is that, when they introduced the constellations back in Season 2, they didn't know what the ending would look like, and that when they wrote the ending, they didn't really care.
As for Kara, I guess that whoever the third party is, it realized that the Humans and Cylons needed another whack with the cluestick and sent Kara a few visions of Leoben to get her into a position to get killed, then resurrected her with a few extra informations thrown in to get the fleet where they need to be faster.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Mr. R on March 21, 2009, 09:32:11 pm
I think this episode could have done without the last two minutes tying into the 'real world', making such a blunt cautionary tale. It wasn't enough to ruin a mostly-satisfying ending, though.

EDIT: A few thoughts, that I suspended while watching:

- None of the potential 'dying leaders' didn't make it to New Earth.
- Why was the opera house projection so important and forshadow-worthy? The role of Baltar and Caprica Six in getting Hera to the CIC was very minor, compared to all the other things that happened to the girl. In fact, what was so important about Hera? Why couldn't anyone else be the mitochondrial Eve? Was she just a rallying symbol for leading Galactica to the final battle?
- The nature of Starbuck and the motives of the 'Head angels' were left unexplained, which is diappointing, considering how much of the series was invested in these mysteries. 'Something has been guiding us all along' is nothing that hasn't been said before.

Nailed it, agreed.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Locutus of Borg on March 21, 2009, 09:34:09 pm
about the 'You know he doesn't like being called that...'

They were referring to god, and it was meant to reinforce that they are angels.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Polpolion on March 21, 2009, 10:32:10 pm
One thing that makes me angry is that in the end, it didn't matter at all if the fleet survived or not. Think about it: they didn't bring any technology to the new world, they threw it all into the sun. They didn't start again and try and continue with their lives, they just sort of stopped. They set back the human scientific understanding of the universe by tens of thousands of years. They did bring knowledge, thought, but not the means to use all of it. They have enough knowledge to survive, but that's essentially it.

If the fleet was destroyed, say at the beginning of the fourth season, it's perfectly possible that the same end result would have happened: with people on "Earth" being a technological civilization 150,000 years later.

Other than that (the last half hour or so), it was an excellent ending. It's just that the above lingers in my mind and gnaws at it.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: General Battuta on March 21, 2009, 10:56:30 pm
One thing that makes me angry is that in the end, it didn't matter at all if the fleet survived or not. Think about it: they didn't bring any technology to the new world, they threw it all into the sun. They didn't start again and try and continue with their lives, they just sort of stopped. They set back the human scientific understanding of the universe by tens of thousands of years. They did bring knowledge, thought, but not the means to use all of it. They have enough knowledge to survive, but that's essentially it.

If the fleet was destroyed, say at the beginning of the fourth season, it's perfectly possible that the same end result would have happened: with people on "Earth" being a technological civilization 150,000 years later.

Other than that (the last half hour or so), it was an excellent ending. It's just that the above lingers in my mind and gnaws at it.

Except Hera was for some reason necessary.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Herra Tohtori on March 21, 2009, 11:14:32 pm
Oh by the way, for anyone who happens to have a keyboard instrument (or can play them on their head):

Assign E=1 F=2 G=3 A=4 B=5 C=6 D=7 (though the last doesn't matter).

Then take a look at the co-ordinates on the FTL drive: 1123 6536 5321, and press the corresponding keys. Behold the unbelievably complex mathemathics to derive the jump co-ordinates. :lol:

EDIT: In case it hasn't been posted yet in the thread, Ron Moore's post-finale press conference (http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html) seems to say that the "Original Earth" was the nuked one, and the "New Earth" is in our past. He doesn't say if timetravel was involved.

Fail at astronomy seems to creep up as the more likely answer to the question of why there are two Earths.

Was there ever any clear shot of the "Original Earth" that would show that it has different or similar coastlines as "New Earth"?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rainman on March 21, 2009, 11:19:21 pm
The ending was OK, but it deserved to be 5 hours long at least. Then it would have been beyond amazing. They just didn't have time to keep the drama going with so many questions to be answered.

And anyone else notice a lot of holes in the story? Raptors jumped from inside Galactica and didn't tear it apart? Galactica jumped from inside the colony and didn't tear that apart or even leave a scratch? And that conviniently placed and timed nuke launch was wierd as hell too. It would have been better if it occured hours later and if the nukes homed in on the colony after being fired the wrong way. When the losses were called out, 7 raptors seemed realistic... but 4 vipers? That's it?

But there were so many brilliant ideas too, I just feel like Adama should have had a backup plan if Anders couldn't disable the hybrids. That's the whole time factor again. If there was more time they could have showed that. I would have liked to see the battle plan in progress, not just hey look, theres a problem, and then they just jump to the solution.

There were two moments that I felt like laughing in the show:

1) The cylon on cylon hand combat, they looked like they were breaking it down on the dance floor, and it was priceless. The room even had the perfect dark lighting for a club.

2) At the end with the whole "the moral of today's story is don't mess with robots"

That being said, the episode was great with the time given. They answered EVERYTHING. And the battle, especially the ground combat with the centurians backing up the marines, that was epic. The blank slate, everyone knows they want a blank slate. Even though it seems like a waste throwing those ships into the sun, that was the best thing I've ever seen. After seeing the worst that life had to offer, they decided to throw away their past and start over. And baltar finally growing a pair? That made the whole story worth it. He was a little trigger happy though i'm not going to lie.
And the red paint centurions? They looked like they were right out of Braveheart. I loved it. It made them look even more badass than they were before. And the fact that they didn't wash it off by the end of the show shows they liked it too.

All in all, it was a great ending, all questions answered, even though it might have seemed a little like a fairytale happily ever after ending. The theme I saw with the ending is that you have to enjoy life, live it to the fullest without letting the technology and mad rush and stress of modern times get you.
Title: The silent "big reveal" RE Baltar, and the true scope of Moore's concerns?
Post by: Kyle_K_ski on March 22, 2009, 01:18:30 am
I feel that this was a very strong and satisfying way to end the series. 

The way Cavil went was brilliant.  It was really the only path that he could take.  Even if he could fight his way off of the ship, everyone else back on the Cylon Colony would just relegate him to the dung heap, and there's no way that he could've handled that.  Had he returned to the Colony, it would've even made sense to have had a Cylon kill him for his foolishness.

I'm surprised that nobody brought up one of the largest revelations in the show, that has enormous repercussions in how we see a major character, Baltar.  Over the past couple of weeks I've read on several sites one very consistent "criticism" in regards to if Baltar "grew a pair" in the series finale and did something other than serve himself, and that was it would be "totally out of character" for him to suddenly switch from being such a ruthless and selfish pig to one who would be willing to lay himself down for the benefit of others.  I was pretty much speechless when they showed the moment where he discloses to Six that he'll let her take a peek at the defense grid's code.  I certainly wasn't ready when he told her WHY he was doing it, because he LOVED her.  Wow!  That completely opened up a whole new way of seeing him.

It seems to me that Moore's message regarding the dangers of technology are far more profound than many of us here are contemplating, in the finale he seems to be shouting it out.  It's more than just the evolution of robotics/AI, but a whole questioning of how we've structured our entire current civilization, which is barely sustainable.  Just look at what Moore established:

Baltar's father was a farmer, who Baltar condemned as being "dirty minded" and a "pervert", but who, actually, was practically swinging his cane around in frustration at his son's inability to see that the world that he embraced was what was dirty minded, unnatural, and perverted because it was oblivious to the hard realities of life. 

On New Earth, when the words "we can have the main lines for a city drawn within a couple of days" were spoken, Lee said, "No.  No cities..."  Why choose those specific words?

Other than bare essentials, the survivors tossed all of their technology into the sun, and Sam certainly didn't seem to mind his sacrifice to make it happen.  They didn't even keep any vehicles to work the land!  This is no minor detail. 

Moore certainly could have ended the series with some dialogue describing how they would keep their technology and take steps to see that AI wouldn't be abused, or that robotics wouldn't be developed into a Cylon form, but he chose NOT to take this path, a path that most of us would certainly find reasonable.  No, instead, he aimed for the very symbolic base of empire: cities.  Enormous collections of people surrounded by a technological framework that is so rigid, that if it wasn't for the massive exploitation of land through agriculture everyone within would literally starve to death.  And "yes", I am being literal here.  What would happen if the cost of oil became too high?  There'd be no more high tech fertilizers and pesticides that are absolutely essential to maintain our enormous food production for our modern cities, no more antibiotics needed for massive meat production, and no more chemicals to treat water with, and without clean water there can only be Death to those that require it.  And I haven't even hit upon what the loss of tractor-centered farming would mean.  In the 1920s, it took 1 calorie of oil to produce 1 calorie of food.  Today, it takes 10 calories of petroleum to produce 1 calorie of food.  How much of a drop in petroleum does one need today to create an utter catastrophe?  With those ratios, not very much at all.     

Notice that the word "agriculture" isn't uttered even once, but rather the word "cultivation."  There IS a BIG difference between the two words, not just in meaning put more importantly, in practice. 

"Cultivation" means working WITH nature.

"Agriculture" means to disruptively EXPLOIT nature (which is what we have now).

The selection of language and tone is too consistent to be an accident.  Especially when combined with the visuals.  We see numerous scenes with small groups of people trekking across virgin lands, and then we sweep from Hera on the beautiful rolling plains to a modern day concrete and steel behemoth city that is unsustainable in every way, packed to the gills with people who are about as disconnected from The Land as one can get.  This isn't just about a lack of technical (not technological) know-how, but it also includes how that lack of natural connection leads to profound spiritual immaturity as well. 

One doesn't have to be religious to be spiritual.  Listen to just about anything Carl Sagan has ever spoken, and you'll instantly know what I'm talking about here.

Our last scene with Baltar on New Earth has him mentioning that he knows how to cultivate land, and he suddenly loses control over his emotions, because he's finally learned that the greatest gift he's been given is how to grow food to nourish others, and that this gift came from his father who he abused by trapping him within an abode most of us would consider heaven, with all of the modern and most beautiful conveniences of life.  But this "heaven" was really a hell, and only his father could see it.  What he wanted was to be able to grow things, and stay connected to The Land, the only real and meaningful relationship a human can have, anything else is an illusion of empire.  All of that which he cursed his father for was EVERYTHING he later HAD TO HAVE in order to LIVE.  What a terrifically powerful path to character development.  So much is said with so little. 

Wow.  What an epic and powerful conclusion. 

I still feel that Babylon 5 is the single greatest science fiction TV series ever made, but it was almost nudged out of its spot by BSG.  And that's an enormous compliment to an enormous achievement, especially when compared to all of the other crap Hollywood routinely produces from its diarrheaic butt.

The Diaspora team has quite a challenge with Galactica's final assault, and I can't wait to see the team NAIL it perfectly!

Wow!

Just WOW!

 :yes:


         
 
   
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Herra Tohtori on March 22, 2009, 01:26:28 am
...the red paint centurions? They looked like they were right out of Braveheart. I loved it. It made them look even more badass than they were before. And the fact that they didn't wash it off by the end of the show shows they liked it too.

Da red wunz go fasta. :p
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ace on March 22, 2009, 01:55:26 am
One thing that makes me angry is that in the end, it didn't matter at all if the fleet survived or not. Think about it: they didn't bring any technology to the new world, they threw it all into the sun. They didn't start again and try and continue with their lives, they just sort of stopped. They set back the human scientific understanding of the universe by tens of thousands of years. They did bring knowledge, thought, but not the means to use all of it. They have enough knowledge to survive, but that's essentially it.

If the fleet was destroyed, say at the beginning of the fourth season, it's perfectly possible that the same end result would have happened: with people on "Earth" being a technological civilization 150,000 years later.

Other than that (the last half hour or so), it was an excellent ending. It's just that the above lingers in my mind and gnaws at it.

I was half expecting Cavil to pull a really tricky stunt on everyone:
He knew where the fleet was the whole time, waited for Adama to feel secure to do an "assault" bringing the Five with him, (For him, both Hera and Ellen were chips in order to get the Five to the Colony) and at that moment wipes out the fleet. Then he tries to use "you don't have a viable breeding population to rebuild humanity" (have a bit of "By my estimates you have... what 1,800 aboard? About 200 casualties now? Sure most are in their prime... but you have a dying ship, no infrastructure, and if by some miracle you did find a planet you'd be running around wearing skins and using stone knives... so here's my deal...") as a bargaining chip for resurrection as he believes both will see the 'light of reason' and understand it's the only way to survive. It'd tie in even more strongly with what Lee wants since at that point the options would be to "go primitive" or become like the Cylons, and they saw how that wasn't a solution to the cycle.

However, probably only EJO would have been happy with wiping out everyone who didn't volunteer for the suicide mission ;)
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Black Wolf on March 22, 2009, 03:14:08 am
Well, I'm in the minority here I see but damn that sucked. I'm wiping everything after the reveal of Africa from space out of my memory and pretending it never happened so as not to completely spoil the best sci fi show in years. Ugh. :(

Very, very disappointing.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: newman on March 22, 2009, 03:39:23 am
Only part of that statement I agree with is "best sci-fi show in years" :D
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: BlackDove on March 22, 2009, 06:37:08 am
Well, I'm in the minority here I see but damn that sucked. I'm wiping everything after the reveal of Africa from space out of my memory and pretending it never happened so as not to completely spoil the best sci fi show in years. Ugh. :(

Very, very disappointing.

Don't you LOVE YOUR GOD? WELL DO YOU?

That sci-fi bit, yeah, it spoils the sci-fi because it's not sci-fi.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Herra Tohtori on March 22, 2009, 07:02:17 am
You know he doesn't like to be called God.


Read: The interpretations about the identity/character of the Imperious Leader hidden in the shadows is open. But of course, there's no pleasing everyone... Silly me. Silly, silly me.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: General Battuta on March 22, 2009, 07:55:38 am
And anyone else notice a lot of holes in the story? Raptors jumped from inside Galactica and didn't tear it apart? Galactica jumped from inside the colony and didn't tear that apart or even leave a scratch? And that conviniently placed and timed nuke launch was wierd as hell too. It

You didn't see the whole side of the flight pod burst open when the Raptors jumped out?

Galactica looked like it had 'backed out' a little when it jumped. In any case the Colony was WAY to big too be seriously damaged by anything as tiny as Galactica.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Mefustae on March 22, 2009, 09:15:24 am
Incredible.

Outstanding.

Utterly heartbreaking, and mind-bogglingly amazing.

Let's everyone raise a glass, regardless of what you thought of this end, to Battlestar Galactica; a truly great vision of science fiction that may never be repeated within our lifetime.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: BlackDove on March 22, 2009, 09:27:55 am
Wat?

They make better Anime, on like, a daily basis.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Dilmah G on March 22, 2009, 09:34:24 am
Well, I'm in the minority here I see but damn that sucked. I'm wiping everything after the reveal of Africa from space out of my memory and pretending it never happened so as not to completely spoil the best sci fi show in years. Ugh. :(

Very, very disappointing.

Hmmm, it provided some good closure. I mean, that's what it was all about, depriving us of it would've pissed off me for one.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: The E on March 22, 2009, 09:44:35 am
Wat?

They make better Anime, on like, a daily basis.

If you like anime, that is. However, there are those among us who *GASP* prefer Live Action stuff. Shows like BSG are a once-in-a-decade deal, really. Shows like BSG that actually end in a satisfying manner are even rarer.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: BlackDove on March 22, 2009, 09:48:52 am
He said "truly great vision of science fiction".

What you prefer or don't prefer is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: The E on March 22, 2009, 10:01:22 am
Wait, what? I prefer live action TV over Anime.
There are anime shows that reach the quality of BSG and Firefly (Cowboy Bebop springs to mind), but those are not that common either. And please remember that "a truly great vision of SF" is as subjective as it gets, so this is very much a "your mileage may vary"-deal.
Title: Kara was the Harbinger of Humanity's demise? I think so...
Post by: Kyle_K_ski on March 22, 2009, 10:16:48 am
One of the observations that I forgot to mention last night was that since Hera=Lucy and Lucy=Our "humanity's" Eve (our "humanity"=half Cylon) then doesn't that imply that none of the descendants of the Colonial Fleet survived long enough to exert dominance and be "The" definitive ancestors of our modern "human" race.  Which means that the Colonial strain of humanity went extinct,  which means...

Kara really was the Harbinger of Humanity's Destruction. 

Right?

 :confused:

Title: Re: Kara was the Harbinger of Humanity's demise? I think so...
Post by: General Battuta on March 22, 2009, 10:21:52 am
One of the observations that I forgot to mention last night was that since Hera=Lucy and Lucy=Our "humanity's" Eve (our "humanity"=half Cylon) then doesn't that imply that none of the descendants of the Colonial Fleet survived long enough to exert dominance and be "The" definitive ancestors of our modern "human" race.  Which means that the Colonial strain of humanity went extinct,  which means...

Kara really was the Harbinger of Humanity's Destruction. 

Right?

 :confused:



Nope.

Hera's not Lucy, she's Mitochondrial Eve. That means that everyone on Earth can trace their maternal line back to her.

Let's say Lee also had a bunch of kids, but they were all male. He wouldn't have any maternal-line descendants. It's perfectly reasonable that plenty of colonists had a lot of kids (male and female alike). But Hera is our common maternal ancestor.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: The E on March 22, 2009, 10:44:41 am
"Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end, she is the herald of the Apocalypse, the Harbinger of death" That is what the hybrid said about her in "Razor". The human race, as defined in the show, comprises the people of the fleet. The people living on Earth today are a mixture of colonial, cylon and original Earth 2 genomes. Thus, the human race has ended. Herald of the Apocalypse, Harbinger of death....Don't know about that. But I think it could refer to the "death" of the cycle of destruction that was referenced by the "All of this has happened before..." stuff.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: TESLA on March 22, 2009, 01:27:29 pm
I think I see Centurions out my window..


Aghhhh their back!!!!!!!!!!

Its possible their could be some terrible spin off show in a few years time "Return of the Cylons"
Maybe they were watching our progress the whole time!
Nukes on standby...


Just as a matter of curiousity, are all other Cylons now dead? As in all the Cavils, etc, and old style centurions?? Their must be some baseships still out there...........somewhere.......

Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: TripRussell8142 on March 22, 2009, 03:10:01 pm
I think I see Centurions out my window..


Aghhhh their back!!!!!!!!!!

Its possible their could be some terrible spin off show in a few years time "Return of the Cylons"
Maybe they were watching our progress the whole time!
Nukes on standby...


Just as a matter of curiousity, are all other Cylons now dead? As in all the Cavils, etc, and old style centurions?? Their must be some baseships still out there...........somewhere.......




I agree... I do think there are other basestars, with deceased 1-8's (except 7, and 150,000 yrs is quite a long time and I doubt the skinjobs are immortal), somewhere in a distant place.
Title: Re: Kara was the Harbinger of Humanity's demise? I think so...
Post by: Ace on March 22, 2009, 03:19:53 pm
One of the observations that I forgot to mention last night was that since Hera=Lucy and Lucy=Our "humanity's" Eve (our "humanity"=half Cylon) then doesn't that imply that none of the descendants of the Colonial Fleet survived long enough to exert dominance and be "The" definitive ancestors of our modern "human" race.  Which means that the Colonial strain of humanity went extinct,  which means...

Kara really was the Harbinger of Humanity's Destruction. 

Right?

 :confused:




'Mitochondrial Eve' is not Lucy for frak's sake. :p

Also, those weren't Neanderthals. Those were located in Europe. :p

Also, Cottle's a grave robber.
Title: The fate of the Cylon Colony is certain...
Post by: Kyle_K_ski on March 22, 2009, 03:21:21 pm
I think that I can address part of your question, Tesla.

Especially after the second viewing, I'm completely confident that the Cylon Colony was knocked out of its "locked in" geosynchronous orbit by the Raptor's nukes, and it was last seen tumbling down towards the black hole.  At that point, it was absolutely imperative for the Galactica to jump, lest it get caught in its own event horizon and suffer the fate of the Cylon Colony.  

Other basestars teeming with Cavils and his ilk may be out there, but there was no hint or mention of them, so, who knows?  I didn't see any basestars there, and I doubt that they were parked on the backside of the base, where its even closer to the black hole's event horizon.  The only point that's immediately relevant is that those who could've had a direct impact on the fate of all who the Galactica guarded were present.  

Upon some reflection, I think that it might even be somewhat safe to say that "The" Cavil knew precisely where the fleet was, and if he had wanted them destroyed it would've been a matter of just giving the order--so why didn't he?  Egotism?  Sadism (he wanted them to suffer more)?  Incapability (Hera, stretched too thin)?  A combination of all three reasons?  

The incapability portion is what I'd like to think the Dispora team could really run with.  While I'm all for virtually recreating events from the established Galactica history, I strongly feel that there's a lot of room for following other (smaller) bands of Colonial survivors.  The reason why we didn't see any basestars at the Colony could be a or "the" major highlight of a campaign that's never covered within Galactica's arc, yet nevertheless has enormous consequences of what's seen on the show.

I desperately hope that the Diaspora team is ambitious enough to cover both what's seen in the series, and what's not.  In all honesty, I'm more interested in exploring what's not known, rather than what is.  

 :)
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rainman on March 22, 2009, 03:38:26 pm

Just as a matter of curiousity, are all other Cylons now dead? As in all the Cavils, etc, and old style centurions?? Their must be some baseships still out there...........somewhere.......



That's a good point, I never thought the cylons were dead. I'm pretty sure the Colony is gone, with the whole chain reaction which probably hit its tillium supply as well. But there were about 10 basestars out there that jumped in to help the colony, you could see it on dradis. I believe all of them had spooled up FTLs. And they were a good distance away as well. Those badass red striped centurions that were set free, I bet they'd go back to the colony and try to nail the baseships that were still around the colony, either due to damage or rescue missions. Then again they'd have a hard time jumping in with all the debris. But in the end the remaining cylons have no link to earth anymore, and even if they unbox the 3's this won't help them at all.

But one thing that confused me is what are they going to do with the raptors? are they going to fly them into the ocean or push them off a cliff?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Herra Tohtori on March 22, 2009, 03:44:47 pm
"Lucy" was a famously well preserved member of the species Australopitcheus afarensis, not a memeber of genus Homo. The hominids seen in the series finale were definitely not A.afarensis. They were not H.neandertalis either. Too short hands for neanderthals, slim physique, walked in fully upright posture, and the geographic spread of neanderthal remains does not cover any parts of Africa. They were quite obviously (portrayed by) modern humans (H.sapiens sapiensis) and the most logical thing to assume would be that this is what they were - especially considering that the fleet humans were genetically compatible with them. Which is another can of worms and would suggest towards timetravel hypothesis... it's a better option than a divine hand as suggested by Baltar.

Mitochondrial eve is a term that is used to describe a common ancestory between all humanity due to a genetic bottleneck in human species in the distant past. It is estimated that at one point all of human species consisted of a few thousand people, who likely originated from one tribe that started to expand.


The assumption that Hera was the mitochondrial eve of humanity on this Earth doesn't work either, because there were a lot more females around in both ragtag fleet and the indigenous people. Moreover, Hera's mitochondrial DNA should - according to present day genetics - actually be cylon mitochondrial DNA from Athena/Number 8 line. And she could only be the true mitochondrial eve if all the other females' lineages simply ended at some point, which is... unlikely at best, and would seem to suggest to some problems that the colonial human females would have had with reproduction.

Even then it wouldn't explain why Hera's mitochondrial DNA would take over the mitochondrial DNA of the indigenous people already inhabiting the area.

Unless Cylon mitochondrial DNA comes originally from Earth that was found in the end... :nervous:

It doesn't make sense. I think someone fails biology forever as well as astronomy, but it's no matter. It's also possible that the Smithsonian institute failed and just thought the remains to be of mitochondrial eve, but "Baltar" and "Caprica" knew better.

...however, if the remains were Hera's we now know that canonically Hera died young. Which is no surprise really, tribal community life expectancy is not really long.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: karajorma on March 22, 2009, 04:19:18 pm
Which is another can of worms and would suggest towards timetravel hypothesis... it's a better option than a divine hand as suggested by Baltar.

Not really. Baltar is probably right on the money, Whatever Head Six and Head Baltar are (or whoever they work for) they would have have had over 40,000 years from the time Homo sapiens first appeared to transport humans from Earth to Kobol, build a perfect society, watch it crumble to dust twice (three times if you include the 13th tribe) and still had time to guide them back to Earth.

No need for time travel at all. Remember that Kobol was described as the place that humanity lived with the gods. Everyone seems to have assumed that whatever took out the civilisation on Kobol took out all the Gods too or that they were never real.

But if even one of them is still knocking about then it suddenly becomes a lot easier to explain where Head Six and Head Baltar came from.

Quote
Mitochondrial eve is a term that is used to describe a common ancestory between all humanity due to a genetic bottleneck in human species in the distant past. It is estimated that at one point all of human species consisted of a few thousand people, who likely originated from one tribe that started to expand.

Mitochondrial Eve does not require a population bottleneck to exist. In the case of humans there was a bottleneck but there definitely didn't need to be one. Every species has one (Although in some cases it's far enough back to not even be a member of the same species).

Quote
The assumption that Hera was the mitochondrial eve of humanity on this Earth doesn't work either, because there were a lot more females around in both ragtag fleet and the indigenous people. Moreover, Hera's mitochondrial DNA should - according to present day genetics - actually be cylon mitochondrial DNA from Athena/Number 8 line. And she could only be the true mitochondrial eve if all the other females' lineages simply ended at some point, which is... unlikely at best, and would seem to suggest to some problems that the colonial human females would have had with reproduction.

Now you're nitpicking. :p

1) We're flat out told she's Mitochondrial Eve by Head Six and Baltar.
2) In a universe where we've been expected to believe in prophecy right from the start you find it hard to believe that Hera could be Mitochondrial Eve?
3) It doesn't require anything to be wrong with anyone. All it requires is simple chance. And Prophecy > Chance.

Quote
Even then it wouldn't explain why Hera's mitochondrial DNA would take over the mitochondrial DNA of the indigenous people already inhabiting the area.

It really doesn't have to. It's really just down to sheer luck. Hera's children produced girls a little longer than everyone else's did. Someone had to do that. Why couldn't it be Hera?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Anf23 on March 22, 2009, 04:45:35 pm
I wonder why D,anna didnt show up once in this ep, she seemed like a really important character a few eps back
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: karajorma on March 22, 2009, 04:49:01 pm
She decided to remain on the nuked Earth. Did you only just now notice she was gone? :)
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Anf23 on March 22, 2009, 05:06:12 pm
 :lol: oh yeah i forgot all about that lol
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: redsniper on March 22, 2009, 06:29:59 pm
Did anyone notice they only lost FOUR vipers? Or that frakkin' Lampkin was president for a while. All in all a great ending to a great show. I was so worried they'd screw it up somehow and it was so good I watched it twice. :D
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Angreifer on March 22, 2009, 07:31:27 pm
I gotta say, the way some people are analyzing this episode, you'd think RDM was proposing BSG as an actual theory for the origins of humanity.  :p Really, it's a science fiction television show, and you're going to need to embrace suspension of disbelief to a certain extent. Within the context of the show, the ending makes a fair amount of sense. But if you start looking for answers to everything, backed up by real science no less, you're setting yourself up for a fall.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Polpolion on March 22, 2009, 07:36:04 pm
I gotta say, the way some people are analyzing this episode, you'd think RDM was proposing BSG as an actual theory for the origins of humanity.  :p Really, it's a science fiction television show, and you're going to need to embrace suspension of disbelief to a certain extent. Within the context of the show, the ending makes a fair amount of sense. But if you start looking for answers to everything, back up by real science no less, you're setting yourself up for a fall.

I wonder what a religion based on a Science Fiction work would be like.  :p
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Angreifer on March 22, 2009, 07:42:51 pm
I gotta say, the way some people are analyzing this episode, you'd think RDM was proposing BSG as an actual theory for the origins of humanity.  :p Really, it's a science fiction television show, and you're going to need to embrace suspension of disbelief to a certain extent. Within the context of the show, the ending makes a fair amount of sense. But if you start looking for answers to everything, back up by real science no less, you're setting yourself up for a fall.

I wonder what a religion based on a Science Fiction work would be like.  :p

It's called Scientology.  :p
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: TESLA on March 22, 2009, 07:47:20 pm
I gotta say, the way some people are analyzing this episode, you'd think RDM was proposing BSG as an actual theory for the origins of humanity.  :p Really, it's a science fiction television show, and you're going to need to embrace suspension of disbelief to a certain extent. Within the context of the show, the ending makes a fair amount of sense. But if you start looking for answers to everything, backed up by real science no less, you're setting yourself up for a fall.

You mean its not!!

I unplugged my toaster and everything...............just in case...............and the fridge, i have my doubts......

Your right though, its a show, lets not get caught up in the small details,
But pity D`ianna, didnt have a lil more faith in God ;) and stay with the fleet, she would have been happy on New Earth (our earth) i think

Maybe the raptors became "chariots of the god" in ancient mythology??
Eventually too old stopped working

And like someone said before

Now we know why the flight pods are retracted before jumps..........vipers tend to fall out otherwise.....  :D

Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: TripRussell8142 on March 22, 2009, 08:04:36 pm
Did anyone notice they only lost FOUR vipers? Or that frakkin' Lampkin was president for a while. All in all a great ending to a great show. I was so worried they'd screw it up somehow and it was so good I watched it twice. :D

4 vipers and 7 raptors ;)
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Locutus of Borg on March 22, 2009, 08:06:45 pm
47
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Rainman on March 22, 2009, 11:13:42 pm
Did anyone notice they only lost FOUR vipers? Or that frakkin' Lampkin was president for a while. All in all a great ending to a great show. I was so worried they'd screw it up somehow and it was so good I watched it twice. :D

4 vipers and 7 raptors ;)

Yea I mentioned this before and no one seemed to care...  :P

Either those pilots are becoming aces or they got really lucky in that fight. Then again it would make sense the raptors would lose more than the vipers on this mission, they flew right into the colony. And Also not so many vipers hung around to defend Galactica. A lot were back with the fleet on the baseship. So i guess it wasn't some accidental figure, it made sense.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Mefustae on March 23, 2009, 02:24:20 am
Did anyone notice they only lost FOUR vipers? Or that frakkin' Lampkin was president for a while. All in all a great ending to a great show. I was so worried they'd screw it up somehow and it was so good I watched it twice. :D

4 vipers and 7 raptors ;)
Including Racetrack. :(
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: tikey on March 23, 2009, 03:49:39 am
Did anyone notice they only lost FOUR vipers? Or that frakkin' Lampkin was president for a while. All in all a great ending to a great show. I was so worried they'd screw it up somehow and it was so good I watched it twice. :D

4 vipers and 7 raptors ;)
Including Racetrack. :(

She deserved it.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Herra Tohtori on March 23, 2009, 03:58:31 am
"Even in death, I still serve."

Someone needs to photoshop a Dreadnought Armor with Racetrack's Raptor as it's torso...
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: odo2063 on March 23, 2009, 04:33:33 am
The DRADIS was close to unusable, so i guess the Raiders were not capable of acting at maximum performance and maybe their controls were somekind of disturbed by these interferences. And don't foreget they were fighting on Godsside.

btw did anyone see some old Raiders in that fight?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: FraktuRe on March 23, 2009, 05:01:43 am
I guess by the fact that cavil was even using old centurions shows how desperate his situation was.

Also, I rewatched some bits: Galactica jumps in to the colony with the pods CLOSED unlike some people said. The windows DO break when the raptors jump out (it's hard to see though) and a hole is busted out of the pod.

When Kara is typing in the numbers, it's specifically referenced that Kara is an angel.

When Galactica jumps out, she jumps with pods OPEN and a viper falls out as well as others smashing around.

also. Some clarification on the fate of the colony from one of the visual effects guys:

Quote

The fate of the Colony was somehow lost in the final cut.

The plan was to secretly jump the Raptors far away, and at the right time, lauch enough missiles to knock the Colony out of it’s very delicate orbit around the black hole and INTO the black hole. The final shots of the Colony were to be of it slipping out of orbit and breaking up.

That’s why the Raptors had to launch out of the flight pods - so no one would see them heading off AND to make sure they actually would make it a safe distance away (if they simply launched and tried to fly the distance, they’d probably get picked off).

This wasn’t very clear in the air version, but the longer, DVD version may address it.

Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Kosh on March 23, 2009, 07:25:36 am
Quote
Moore certainly could have ended the series with some dialogue describing how they would keep their technology and take steps to see that AI wouldn't be abused, or that robotics wouldn't be developed into a Cylon form, but he chose NOT to take this path, a path that most of us would certainly find reasonable.

That would have been a much better ending to the show IMO. I really didn't like how the religious crap was bludgeoned into the show, and Lee's suggestion of a utopian neo-primitive fantasy was a big WTF moment for me, every else going along with it was an even bigger WTF moment. So they wanted to break the cycle, fine but how does erasing your civilization's history help anything? A big reason why the cycle was endless was because people kept forgetting what happened before.

But this time the cycle was already broken anyway, by Hera and by the renegade Cylons. By the time of Cavil's defeat they had become colonial citizens and were tasked in part with defending humanity. Humans and Cylons and Centrurions working together instead of trying to dominate or eradicate each other never happened before in the previous cycles, and so they had a good foundation to build a solid future TOGETHER. Throwing all of that away seems really pointless.

I do believe that the ending does reflect a neo-primitivist undercurrent in modern american culture.


EDIT: I'm on a roll so I'll throw some more in. I always believed that resurrected Kara was part of some kind of agent of a third party, not god but something else ala the ship of lights in TOS, and I was really disappointed that wasn't the case that she turned out to be yet another "angel", although one that can shoot stuff and fly Vipers..........which was yet another WTF moment.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Meleardil on March 23, 2009, 08:16:06 am
You all missed the KEY sentence.
It was something like this: The scientific and technological development always was eons ahead of spiritual development. Lee abandoned technology in the hope that by the time humanity again develops such high technology to create true AI, we will be mature enough to coexist with them instead of enslaving them and fighting them again and again. And THAT is the implication which puts the very end to the real perspective. We see our own technological civilization, at the dawn of developing our new cylons, but the question remains: are we grown up for that? Are we emotionally and spiritually mature enough to tamper with real creation, giving birth to an alien sentient race?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Kosh on March 23, 2009, 08:33:06 am
But they were co-existing by the end of the show. For example, those centurions didn't go on the raid to get hera on the colony because they had to, they went because they chose to. The renegade cylons (which is pretty much all that's left of the cylon race) were, by the end of the series, responsible for the safety of the civilian fleet. humans and cylons were working together.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: General Battuta on March 23, 2009, 10:11:03 am
But they were co-existing by the end of the show. For example, those centurions didn't go on the raid to get hera on the colony because they had to, they went because they chose to. The renegade cylons (which is pretty much all that's left of the cylon race) were, by the end of the series, responsible for the safety of the civilian fleet. humans and cylons were working together.

There's an obvious reason for why they went primitive, hidden in the show's subtext.

"No city. Not this time." They were afraid of another New Caprica. Odds are that most of the Colonials wouldn't have been willing to live in a settlement under joint Cylon-Human rule. What's more, if they left the fleet in orbit -- or even nearby -- it could have been detected by whatever remains of Cavil's forces, hellbent on revenge.

I just wish they'd made it explicit in dialogue.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Echelon9 on March 23, 2009, 11:00:36 am
In light of the events of the last episode, I think the choice of "Diaspora" as the mod title has been pretty well re-affirmed.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: BlackDove on March 23, 2009, 03:33:55 pm
You all missed the KEY sentence.
It was something like this: The scientific and technological development always was eons ahead of spiritual development. Lee abandoned technology in the hope that by the time humanity again develops such high technology to create true AI, we will be mature enough to coexist with them instead of enslaving them and fighting them again and again. And THAT is the implication which puts the very end to the real perspective. We see our own technological civilization, at the dawn of developing our new cylons, but the question remains: are we grown up for that? Are we emotionally and spiritually mature enough to tamper with real creation, giving birth to an alien sentient race?

THAT'S RIGHT! YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE WHO GOT IT, AND NONE OF US DID!

Was that the answer you were looking for?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Meleardil on March 23, 2009, 03:51:12 pm
You all missed the KEY sentence.
It was something like this: The scientific and technological development always was eons ahead of spiritual development. Lee abandoned technology in the hope that by the time humanity again develops such high technology to create true AI, we will be mature enough to coexist with them instead of enslaving them and fighting them again and again. And THAT is the implication which puts the very end to the real perspective. We see our own technological civilization, at the dawn of developing our new cylons, but the question remains: are we grown up for that? Are we emotionally and spiritually mature enough to tamper with real creation, giving birth to an alien sentient race?

THAT'S RIGHT! YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE WHO GOT IT, AND NONE OF US DID!

Was that the answer you were looking for?
Frak you too! Was that the answer you were looking for?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Locutus of Borg on March 23, 2009, 04:00:18 pm
Both of you, there's no need to troll.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Meleardil on March 23, 2009, 05:22:27 pm
I wont ignore insults...from nobody. And I don't care about any crap stating that I shall be the better person by tolerating trolls. I just wont. Simple as that.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Locutus of Borg on March 23, 2009, 05:34:45 pm
Sigh
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Meleardil on March 23, 2009, 05:39:14 pm
:) Locutus. Thanks for your peace effort! Extra thanks for cutting the tolerance speech. Actually, that was the real act of tolerance. Oh...and I am not angry, if you were thinking that. I finished the offtopic part with this.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Polpolion on March 23, 2009, 07:25:21 pm
Anyways...

You all missed the KEY sentence.
It was something like this: The scientific and technological development always was eons ahead of spiritual development. Lee abandoned technology in the hope that by the time humanity again develops such high technology to create true AI, we will be mature enough to coexist with them instead of enslaving them and fighting them again and again. And THAT is the implication which puts the very end to the real perspective. We see our own technological civilization, at the dawn of developing our new cylons, but the question remains: are we grown up for that? Are we emotionally and spiritually mature enough to tamper with real creation, giving birth to an alien sentient race?

"Humanity" cannot mature like that because it is not a collective consciousness. Maybe if they had the means to record their experiences and thoughts in some durable, lasting medium, they'd be able to instill upon future generations just how grave the situations were. Unfortunately, they threw their only guarantee that this robot rebellion would never happen again into the sun.

They can't record these things in books, because then it becomes like the Bible. And look what happened to that after 2000 years, not to mention 150,000 years. Even if they kept technology and recorded it in whatever media storage medium was practical, people would stop believing it. What people would believe is the rusted out hulk of a >1 mile long warship hanging in obit that's visible even during the day. That alone would make people believe what's told to them only through oral stories many, many generations more.

The thing is, they can't just forget this and try and start over. If they have a "clean slate", then that means they really haven't learned their lesson yet; it's essentially "well that didn't work, let's try again in about two hundred thousand years."

Honestly though, I can see where the difficulty in maintaining this knowledge could be over such a long period of time, regardless of what people do. Well no I can't, because they really need to remember this forever and ever. The closest analogy I can think of is the issue of slavery, only without as much clarity. I'm no psycho-historian; I don't know if we'll have slaves again in two hundred thousand years.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: On_Your_Six on March 23, 2009, 07:49:42 pm
Quote from: thesizzler
The thing is, they can't just forget this and try and start over. If they have a "clean slate", then that means they really haven't learned their lesson yet; it's essentially "well that didn't work, let's try again in about two hundred thousand years."

Honestly though, I can see where the difficulty in maintaining this knowledge could be over such a long period of time, regardless of what people do. Well no I can't, because they really need to remember this forever and ever. The closest analogy I can think of is the issue of slavery, only without as much clarity. I'm no psycho-historian; I don't know if we'll have slaves again in two hundred thousand years.

Well said, thesizzler, but I fear you (as well as others) have fallen into a certain trap where you have to suspend the shows ending from the shows message to us as the audience/humanity, which applies to both our spiritual and scientific sides, and that prime message is that for all our endeavour and faith we oft forget to keep an idea of responsibility in mind when we make the great strides in the name of progress.

In shirking the wisdom that may arise from actually stopping and thinking about what we're going to do (let's say execute such and such individual according to pre ordained laws from a religious tome, or activating a nanobot for the first time) it is then we get caught in the endless cycle. 

What I absolutely love most about it, is that it ties so well with Adama's speech aboard the Galactica in the miniseries, almost poetic had there not been a few hiccups in the finale.

All the same, absolutely incredible show, absolutely incredible finale.

P.S. I didn't mean to single you out there, sizzler, as many have shared your sentiment, and this general sentiment from the finale.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: TESLA on March 23, 2009, 08:46:55 pm
This all got *****y very quickly  :rolleyes:

Everyone calm down or your model will be boxed  :D


In other news,
check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvLFV5o0iPM&feature=related

turns out Hitler was a BSG fan
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: The E on March 23, 2009, 08:50:20 pm
Turns out, some people on YouTube had their sense of humor surgically removed. You do not speak German, do you?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: On_Your_Six on March 23, 2009, 08:56:25 pm
It was copacetic several posts ago, TESLA, no worries.

And that video was hilarious.  "It appears, sir, that the season is on hiatus..."  Fantastic.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Kosh on March 23, 2009, 09:45:39 pm
But they were co-existing by the end of the show. For example, those centurions didn't go on the raid to get hera on the colony because they had to, they went because they chose to. The renegade cylons (which is pretty much all that's left of the cylon race) were, by the end of the series, responsible for the safety of the civilian fleet. humans and cylons were working together.

There's an obvious reason for why they went primitive, hidden in the show's subtext.

"No city. Not this time." They were afraid of another New Caprica. Odds are that most of the Colonials wouldn't have been willing to live in a settlement under joint Cylon-Human rule. What's more, if they left the fleet in orbit -- or even nearby -- it could have been detected by whatever remains of Cavil's forces, hellbent on revenge.

I just wish they'd made it explicit in dialogue.

They didn't seem to have problems with scrapping Galactica, the only ship that could have even stood a chance against a basestar, and there by leaving the basestar as the only warship left in the fleet. They also didn't have problems with cylon heavy raiders helping with the CAP. The difference between new caprica and this situation is that on new caprica they were an occupying force with a human puppet government, this time around they were colonial citizens (pretty much) and they even had their own representative in the Qurom. That makes a big difference, since they were not controlling the government but they were a part of the government.

Cavil's forces were beaten and scattered by the destruction of the colony, although they still have a couple of baseships on the loose which is even more reason the keep the baseship around for defense. They were detected on new caprica because of a nuclear detonation, and leaving their ships in orbit this time around would have made no real difference since they can scan the surface (or explore the surface).

Like I said, it seems that this was a reflection of a neo-primitivist under-current in modern american culture.

Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: On_Your_Six on March 23, 2009, 09:57:49 pm
Well, if you hadn't noticed, American civilization could use a retooling....  From the ground up.  ;)
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: swashmebuckle on March 23, 2009, 11:16:46 pm
I found the last episode very enjoyable but also kinda disappointing.

Although I thought the wrap-ups for the various character threads were very personally satisfying, for me the show failed to integrate the episode's action and dramatic highs with the series' overarching question, so the result was a pretty flat action climax in the CIC, beautiful sendoffs for the main players (especially Adama & Roslin), and the one awful extra ending where Baltar and Six beat you over the head with the Honda Asimo.  It had a lot of build up, but in place of a real moment of release for the show to pivot on, there was an awkward end to the action and then the episode was left to sort of drag out its component parts for the second hour.

Instead of all the events of the past four years coalescing into a defining 10 minutes or whatever, we got a wham-bam stop to the plot (Hera found, Cavil dead, oh and by the way here's Earth) that gives us no real insight on whether humanity or AI actually deserves to survive and why.  Whatever the two parties' intentions were, the result was that everyone who opposed the colonials and their allies either ended up getting shot or sucked into a black hole or both; humanity survives because it had more guns in the CIC and Racetrack's dead arm fell on the nuke button at exactly the the most convenient moment.  Also, extinction wasn't ever really a threat anyway because humans were actually doing just fine for themselves on a continent with more wildlife than all the colonies combined (which only Starbuck knew how to find).

My other gripe, and I'm probably again in the minority here, was with the religious aspect.  I've had troubling, shark-jumping feelings since the season three finale when Bob Dylan started playing, and those feeling were confirmed by the ending going fully supernatural.  The conflict between humans and AI and the questions of identity and morality that it raises are for me the most interesting part of the show, and making it so that events were being manipulated by magic angels all along just sort of cheapens the whole series for me.  It would have been so much better, IMO, if head Six's influence on Baltar had stuck to the Cylons' interest in producing hybrid children in order to fully supplant humanity, and the religious delusions had been another ruse to divide and pacify the human breeding stock. 

I'm not saying I hated the finale or anything (the mere fact that it raises these issues makes it probably the best TV show I've ever seen), but for me the whole "God's plan" jag being directly validated held it back from reaching the Blade Runner level of sci-fi achievement.  That said, I think "The Plan" could still salvage a lot of what I really liked from the show (especially the first two seasons) in a way that wouldn't interfere with all the wonderful character arcs that ended here.  Best case scenario: the One True God/Lords of Kobol are actually just super-powerful aliens who Boxey can kill with a Viper (like how Spock shoots God in "The Final Frontier").  Now that would be a sweet ending.

Also where was Seelix?  I like Seelix.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Blue Lion on March 23, 2009, 11:18:35 pm
Where was that tattooed unnamed bald pilot?

I want answers!
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: odo2063 on March 24, 2009, 05:03:41 am
This all got *****y very quickly  :rolleyes:

Everyone calm down or your model will be boxed  :D


In other news,
check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvLFV5o0iPM&feature=related

turns out Hitler was a BSG fan

hey, thats so full of mistakes... here in germen freeTV they have just left new cparica and we can't see the webisodes here!!! btw. this is not even a translation...

but funny yes, in a weird kind of humor.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Dilmah G on March 24, 2009, 05:19:48 am
This all got *****y very quickly  :rolleyes:

Everyone calm down or your model will be boxed  :D


In other news,
check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvLFV5o0iPM&feature=related

turns out Hitler was a BSG fan

hey, thats so full of mistakes... here in germen freeTV they have just left new cparica and we can't see the webisodes here!!! btw. this is not even a translation...

but funny yes, in a weird kind of humor.

My God those are funny

I've been lolling for about half an hour watching all of the videos about that scene
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: odo2063 on March 24, 2009, 05:03:50 pm
This all got *****y very quickly  :rolleyes:

Everyone calm down or your model will be boxed  :D


In other news,
check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvLFV5o0iPM&feature=related

turns out Hitler was a BSG fan

hey, thats so full of mistakes... here in germen freeTV they have just left new cparica and we can't see the webisodes here!!! btw. this is not even a translation...

but funny yes, in a weird kind of humor.

My God those are funny

I've been lolling for about half an hour watching all of the videos about that scene

i think you never had to suffer for the sentence "It wasn't all bad under Hitler." in your history lessons in school.  ;)
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Dilmah G on March 25, 2009, 04:49:25 am
You're right, although I disagree. I don't know if any amount of good could put right what he did.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Snagger on March 25, 2009, 06:45:49 am
I still feel a bit short-changed by the ending.  The last half hour dragged, and seemed to serve no purpose other than to heap more pain on the characters - Adama, Lee and Tyrol all ending up literally alone (why?), though Kara's end was reasonable.  I also don't buy the whole turning their backs on technology thing - they'd be using parts of the ships to create plumbing and electical supplies.  There is no way that nearly 30,000 people who have spent four years holed up in cargo containers to try and find a last hope of civilised shelter are going to suddenly don loin cloths on one man's say-so.  I didn't like the excessive religious tone of it, either.  Some advanced civilisation of beings, fine, but "gods" just pee me off - it seems like a cheap cop out.  I think they should have ended the show with shot Glactica passing the moon, with the African continent in the background, followed by the rest of the fleet arriving, and left it there, with no indication of whether it was in our past, present or future, with Kara's fate happening as the fleet arrived.

HT, I think your synopsis is a bit off the mark.  The disaster on Kobol was the start of the cycle, and was not a disease but the very first clash of humanity with its creation (the Pithean scrolls talked about one Lord of Kobol wanting to be elevated above the others - this is likely the humans use of their Cylons as the slaves they were created to be).  The war on Kobol led to a split, where the humans went one way and their Cylons the other (the Colonies and Earth, respectively), where events repeated themselves fairly simultaneously.  There is never any suggestion that it all started on our Earth.

As for the drawn out, bludgeoned ending, I think the strong inference is that humanity will do it again, that out quest for AI and robotica will once more cause our fall.  That certainly seems consistent with our habit of repeating the past mistakes, which is all the more reason I cringed at Tony Blair's lack of intelligence every time he'd comment that history is worthless and we should only look towards the future.  "Head-Six" is meant to be optimistic - the future is not set, afterall (nod to Terminator's "No Fate", I think) - but all the hallmarks for another cataclism are there.  It's a common SF stance, though, with more stories with robots having the robots fight their masters than serve them (Terminator, The Matrix, War Games and so on).

It is an issue in the real world, with more and more development for the military forces for AI robots to conduct operations.  It's good having unarmed drones to do reconnaisance or bomb-disposal/mine clearing tasks, but quite another thing to arm them.  AI can't necessarily differentiate between friendly and enemy targets and make correct split-second decisions, like deciding that the Afghan holding the Lee-Enfield .303 is a British supporter who's grandfather was honoured for fighting alongside British troops generations ago (see recent news events), or that a farmer holding a scythe or machete could be working the fields with it or attacking others.  It'll be a long time before AI could be smart enough to make these sorts of decisions based on understanding human mentality and the concept of context (aluded to in the "I Robot" film version). While these drone lack their own AI and under remote control from human operators, there is little problem, but if they get their own AI or are controlled remotely by an AI master computer, then there is a potential for thse stories to become portentious.  My brother is working on some pretty interesting UAV/UUV/USV projects for the Royal Navy, so though I don't get to know any project details, I do know robotic warfare is less than a generation away (arguably, the Predators have already introduced it in Iraq and Afghanistan).
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: karajorma on March 25, 2009, 08:37:25 am
I think the strong inference is that humanity will do it again,

I didn't see it that way. I saw it as them saying that it could happen again.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: The E on March 25, 2009, 08:48:44 am
Exactly. Galactica has always been more about questions than answers, and I think the question is, will humanity be able to make the right decision now? I surely hope so. (I still welcome our robotic overlords)
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Snagger on March 25, 2009, 08:51:44 am
I think the strong inference is that humanity will do it again,

I didn't see it that way. I saw it as them saying that it could happen again.
Sorry, I meant to say would probably do it again, with only a slim possibility that we might escape such a fate.  It was not filmed as a certainly, but showing our robots and attempts at AI, together with the Baltar-like's comments leaves little hope for a future for mankind in thier show-reality, given our lack of ability to flee to other worlds and our inability to treat eachother as equals, let alone a creed of robots that we specifically create as slaves..
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Herra Tohtori on March 25, 2009, 10:52:28 am
HT, I think your synopsis is a bit off the mark.  The disaster on Kobol was the start of the cycle, and was not a disease but the very first clash of humanity with its creation (the Pithean scrolls talked about one Lord of Kobol wanting to be elevated above the others - this is likely the humans use of their Cylons as the slaves they were created to be).  The war on Kobol led to a split, where the humans went one way and their Cylons the other (the Colonies and Earth, respectively), where events repeated themselves fairly simultaneously.  There is never any suggestion that it all started on our Earth.


Well, I'm just attempting to put the events of the series in a (plausible) context with our known Earth history without someone implanting all the fossilized remains of humanity having evolved here, along with seeding the planet with humans.

Or, heck, from biological standpoint life on Earth is one continuum with very much in common, and from a molecular level it's almost impossible that such similar life would evolve elsewhere. Humans as a species can't really have been dumped here by the unknown entity (which doesn't like being called God), unless you want to assume two of quite annoying options to be true:

1. The whole evolution leading to human species was guided by the unknown entity in BSG, along with the machinations that led to the ragtag fleet discovering our Earth. This would mean that the unknown entity is older than life on Earth.

2. The whole history of evolution as we see it from fossilized remains is a fabrication implanted for us to find by the Flying Spaghetti Monster the unknown entity (so yeah, YEC... in a way) :P.

While in the series' context valid options, I'd rather try to somehow make sense out of the finale in the context of physical reality, leaving as little as possible to be explained by the noodly appendage.

So basically if we want to assume that the Colonials really found our Earth and assuming that the history of life and evolution as recorded from fossils is valid, then the conclusion is that the Earth that they found actually is the planet where humanity evolved. Extrapolating from this, and neutralizing the timetravel mess, my current hypothesis is as follows...

*ahem*

Terran life and consequently humans evolved in Earth. Somewhere around 10000 years before the events of the series, Kobolds encountered recently emerged humanoid species on a backwater planet (the one you're standing on). They took a small population with them for whatever purposes aliens abduct people for. Consequently, it's likely that they reverse-engineered human biology into synthetic species (aka skinjobs, or specifically the "final five" variety). About the society and culture on Kobol I have no idea; they could have incorporated humans into the society as peers, slaves or worker caste or anything in between. Conversely, same applies to skinjobs. We have no idea of the actual origins of the skinjobs, just an assumption that since they call themselves cylons (a name attached to the mechanical variety by their creators, Colonial humans).

4000 (?) years ago, something happened on Kobol that made continued life there unfeasible. Whatever happened, remains a mystery. A fullscale war with nuclear holocaust is unlikely, considering the state of Kobol's ecosystem just after four millennia, although possible depending on the scale of destruction. Whatever the reason, Kobolds (or Lords of Kobol or whatever you want to call them) ended up mostly extinct or otherwise absent, while the human population set for the Colonies and the synthetic copies of the humans set for 13th colony, to be named "Earth" in the Pythian scriptures. Considering a map was left to Kobol to point out the Pseudo-Earth's location for searchers, it is likely that the 13th tribe did not intend to be entirely cut off from the Colonies, but it is possible that some sort of schism developed between the skinjob and human populations that led to the decision to separate the "species" for the time being. Possible cause for this might be the disease encountered in the series (the one that targeted skinjobs and biological cylons in general), which would suggest to some kind of quarantene procedure.

So, 13th tribe went to "Earth", developed a culture, and destroyed themselves in about 2000 years (if I remember the numbers right), and 2000 years before the series' events they nuked themselves to death and the Final Five set for the Colonies in their... colony ship.

Meanwhile, the Colonials managed not to destroy themselves, before they developed the mechanical Cylons, entered into war with them and generally screwed up stuff, until the Final Five encountered the mechanical cylons, adopted the name, allied themselves with the chromejobs, signed and armistice and proceeded to create more synthetic humanoid cylons based on themselves and the mechanic cylons' research on the Hybrid, and gave the synthorganic cylons capacity to download, or resurrect.

However, Cavil betrayed the Five, killed the Daniel, killed the Five (nuked their memory) and sent them to the Colonies for some reason. At this point I would say the Unknown Entity (probably a surviving Kobold) interrupted the events by placing a failsafe mechanism of sorts on the sleeper Five (aka. All Along the Watchtower) that would trigger their cylon identity and later on probably open some of their old memories.

Events leading to Kara's resurrection and implanted knowledge of the original Earth's location was likely the second important act by the Unknown Entity. This eventually led to Kara being able to lead the ragtag fleet to the original Earth. After which she was beamed up. Or a leopard ate her.

Meanwhile on Earth... nothing really happened all this time. Humanity on Earth continued their hunter-gatherer routine. 5000-10000 years can be a pretty short time in a prehistoric pre-cultural setting in terms of change. The Colonial Human branch was little more than a footnote on the pages of history of humanity.


For the sake of abandoning time travel I'm going to ignore the obvious discrepancies in astronomy... for now. :p
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Snagger on March 25, 2009, 12:55:42 pm
I just figured that whatever the "angels" civilisation are, they guided the RTF to a planet that happened already to have a compatible similar evolved race.  They're not the same, they're just close enough to be compatible, as is a current theory about the demise of the neaderthals - that they were bred out, not fought out or made extinct, but that their genes were recessive when mixed with homo-sapiens.  The possibility of two similar races developing entirely separately is not implausible, given the massiveness of space and the time scale available, and if these 'angels' are advanced enough to be able to be near omniscient and make apparitions including that of Kara and her Viper, then they're probably capable of knowing what life is devoloping where, knowing where to send the RTF.

As for the astronomical discrepancies, part of it is down to the CGI artists not expecting viewers to analyze the star fields in the fleet's background.  The constellation clues in the tomb of Athena were there to lead the RTF to the 13th Colony, and they matched (as verified by Gaeta).  I suspect that Earth was discovered at the mid season point in order to give us an ending if the writers' strike ended up killing the series dead there, so regardless of the outcome of the strike, the story would have a sense of closure, having reached Earth.  Once the strike ended and the studio confirmed the continuation of the other 10 episodes, I suspect they had to find a way of continuing the story and finding a hibital other planet, subsequently called Earth after colonisation.  It's a bit like when the studios tols MJS that he wouldn't be getting a 5th series of B5, so he wrapped it all up by the end of season 4.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Mobius on March 25, 2009, 01:31:45 pm
Can someone please fix the topic's title...?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: General Battuta on March 25, 2009, 02:43:24 pm
Can someone please fix the topic's title...?

What's wrong with the topic title?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Herra Tohtori on March 25, 2009, 02:45:21 pm
Episode number. It's either Episode 4.20 or 4.22 depending on whether you count Razor as two episodes or not.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Mobius on March 25, 2009, 02:49:07 pm
4.20 or 4.22...but surely not 421... :nervous:
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: SpardaSon21 on March 25, 2009, 04:19:32 pm
Cavil eating his gun: win.  Made the whole stupid CIC standoff/opera house worth it.
Ending about us possibly coexisting with AI: Good, and not too overdone.  Anything resembling a Cylon would have been way too much, and a serious bludgeon to the face.  This just had modern technology, so it can be related to, unlike a super-high-tech sentient Cylon.

Overall, I have to say they did an utterly brilliant job capping off the episode.  They couldn't have ended it on a much better note.  Diaspora has some really big shoes to fill.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ace on March 25, 2009, 04:20:07 pm
It's a compromise :p
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: On_Your_Six on March 25, 2009, 06:15:47 pm
I was kind of hoping Cavil was going to buy it from the Centurions, would have been more poetic, but I have to admit, I did enjoy that, probably just as much.  He was vicious in the final 6 episodes.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: redsniper on March 25, 2009, 10:41:19 pm
(http://i42.tinypic.com/16apeew.jpg)
by yours truly...
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Deckard on March 26, 2009, 05:00:08 am

Here's my interpretation of Colonial-Cylon history as it relates to the show.
...

Kara's Watchtower co-ordinates made the FTL drive into a time machine. Basically FTL drive would be a 4-dimensional vector manipulator instead of just three-dimensional, and in fact the reason why such apparently complex calculus is needed for preparing jumps is to keep the timeframe constant. The co-ordinates fed to Kara Thrace the Second (and the final Five at some point, they just didn't end up figuring it out entirely) ended up moving the fleet to Earth as it was 150000 years ago on this reality's timeframe (as it's depicted in the show) ...



Very briefly... Herra's interpretation especially rings the bell here at my end. During these last 5 years, I've been following several papers which amazingly reinforce predictions on backwards time travel; basically and quite briefly again.. by spinning around the accretion disk of a singularity and under certain very special conditions...

Nevertheless from my point of view, the trick to determine whether that planet is our Earth or not would certainly be its very unique and own satellite ( and if you want; African continent aside... )

Just my 2.5 cents

PS: And how not... MAGNIFICENT ending for our very beloved show !!! :)
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: TripRussell8142 on March 26, 2009, 09:13:52 am
I was kind of hoping Cavil was going to buy it from the Centurions, would have been more poetic, but I have to admit, I did enjoy that, probably just as much.  He was vicious in the final 6 episodes.

Galactica's Rapid Response Teams did not put up much of a resistance in the fight toward the CIC, they were overrunned by a shiny chrome toaster.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: The E on March 26, 2009, 09:22:37 am

Here's my interpretation of Colonial-Cylon history as it relates to the show.
...

Kara's Watchtower co-ordinates made the FTL drive into a time machine. Basically FTL drive would be a 4-dimensional vector manipulator instead of just three-dimensional, and in fact the reason why such apparently complex calculus is needed for preparing jumps is to keep the timeframe constant. The co-ordinates fed to Kara Thrace the Second (and the final Five at some point, they just didn't end up figuring it out entirely) ended up moving the fleet to Earth as it was 150000 years ago on this reality's timeframe (as it's depicted in the show) ...



Very briefly... Herra's interpretation specially rings the bell here at my end. I've read several serious papers during these last 5 years which amazingly reinforced predictions on backwards time travel; basically and quite briefly again.. by spinning around the accretion disk of a singularity and under certain very special conditions...

Nevertheless from my point of view, the trick to determine whether that planet is our Earth or not would certainly be its very unique and own satellite ( and if you want; African continent aside... )

Just my 2.5 cents

PS: And how not... MAGNIFICIENT ending for our very beloved show !!! :)

The problem with that is that, while travelling backwards might be possible, travelling forwards isn't. Galactica needed to send a Raptor back to the RTF to tell them where Earth is, meaning that that Raptor would need to go forward to rendezvous with the fleet, and then backwards to Galactica again. If they were able to do time travel that accurately, they would have done it before.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Snagger on March 26, 2009, 09:48:06 am





The problem with that is that, while travelling backwards might be possible, travelling forwards isn't. Galactica needed to send a Raptor back to the RTF to tell them where Earth is, meaning that that Raptor would need to go forward to rendezvous with the fleet, and then backwards to Galactica again. If they were able to do time travel that accurately, they would have done it before.
Quite.  If they could time travel, which doesn't fit with the show's feel anyway, then wouldn't they have done so to just before the attack on the Colonies, or better, to just before the Cylons were created?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: BlackDove on March 26, 2009, 12:13:27 pm
If they could time travel, they would have just jumped to Earth when they were at Demolished Earth, backwards.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: The E on March 26, 2009, 12:18:54 pm
And if they could do that, they also could go back to before the cylon attack on the colonies and "convince" Cavill to call it off. Introducing time travel into a fictional universe created without it in mind only makes it unstable.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Herra Tohtori on March 26, 2009, 12:29:53 pm
I agree. Time travel is a piss poor plothole filler, only marginally better than Goddidit. It also tends to make more problems than it solves (back and forth travel for one). Which is why I posted the revised theory which ignores the celestial discrepancies such has matching constellations to modern day Earth when observed from the nuked "Earth"...

Oh by the way, traveling to future is possible, going back in time isn't. At least according to most interpretations of general relativity.

When you think about it, we are traveling to the future all the time. Just introduce some time dilating factor on yourself and you can travel to future faster than others. :p Going to past though would seem to be impossible (not counting stuff like tachyons here).
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Locutus of Borg on March 26, 2009, 03:46:13 pm
What if I dilate by negative 1?

Then reflect over the Y axis?

o.0
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: On_Your_Six on March 26, 2009, 04:02:44 pm
I never once had any reason to believe that the fleet did time travel on the way to "our" Earth.

Is this a result of people mistaking the 13th Colony Earth for our Earth, as I definitely recall Adama arbitrarily naming our Earth, Earth?  Bleh.

Either way, that was the one part of the show that irked me a little, which was how Kara just threw in the coordinates and they ended up in our system.  While also ignoring what the Harbinger of Death, and bringing them all to their end, as prophesied by the Hybrid Cylon.  Though, I suppose that could have been the Tarot meaning of Death and end.  As, the Colonials did turn their backs on their technology.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Locutus of Borg on March 26, 2009, 05:46:38 pm
They were destined to attack the colony
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: The E on March 26, 2009, 05:49:03 pm
I agree. Time travel is a piss poor plothole filler, only marginally better than Goddidit. It also tends to make more problems than it solves (back and forth travel for one). Which is why I posted the revised theory which ignores the celestial discrepancies such has matching constellations to modern day Earth when observed from the nuked "Earth"...

Oh by the way, traveling to future is possible, going back in time isn't. At least according to most interpretations of general relativity.

When you think about it, we are traveling to the future all the time. Just introduce some time dilating factor on yourself and you can travel to future faster than others. :p Going to past though would seem to be impossible (not counting stuff like tachyons here).

Okay, that's one way of doing it. However, can you guarantee that the future that you arrive in is the same future you departed from?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Deckard on March 26, 2009, 06:09:50 pm
Herra, should i remind you of that both Einstein's GR and SR Theories are almost a century old?.

By the way.. Tachyons "within" open strings look quite promising and interesting to me. Although today, these little faster than light frakkers are still labeled as hypothetical particles by the Scientist community :) .

Although Einstein's Field equations predict related efects as Frame-dragging, I'd point to String Theories ( yes, plural.. unfortunately many variants of the original.. ), Hawking's Quantum Fields and the amazing properties of BECs ( yep, Einstein here again.. all my respects to the master! ).

Talking about time travel to the future. The relativistic time frame for a faster traveller looks like some sort of "cryostasis" to me as well as some sort of fake time travel. You catch me at this one?. There's much to discover and much more to know and, being not this the better place to discuss on these matters, I foresee that travelling backwards is possible, teleporting is possible, cloning particles is possible, space jumps too... and the list goes on.

The only thing I'm afraid of is if we, being as hostile as we are, will deserve the required technologies to fullfill these challenges in the .. yes, the future :P

In other words, I prefer your first interpretation ! :)
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: General Battuta on March 26, 2009, 11:02:50 pm
Talking about time travel to the future. The relativistic time frame for a faster traveller looks like some sort of "cryostasis" to me as well as some sort of fake time travel. You catch me at this one?. There's much to discover and much more to know and, being not this the better place to discuss on these matters, I foresee that travelling backwards is possible, teleporting is possible, cloning particles is possible, space jumps too... and the list goes on.

Cryostasis, my friend, involves freezing.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Deckard on March 27, 2009, 05:45:48 am
Sorry, mate; that was metaphoric.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Herra Tohtori on March 27, 2009, 07:04:12 am
Chronostasis would be (a bit) more accurate term, but if you want to be accurate, call it what it is... time dilation. :p
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: TESLA on March 27, 2009, 09:30:03 am
Yeah but your going to need to re-modulate the deflector dish or fix the flux capacitor  :D
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Locutus of Borg on March 27, 2009, 10:03:25 am
But by then the Borg have assimilated you

 :headz:
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: General Battuta on March 27, 2009, 10:38:21 am
Sorry, mate; that was metaphoric.

All good, all good.

I was kind of expecting Baltar's cult to lead mass suicide during the finale.

Whatever happened to "The Children of the One Reborn shall find their own world?"
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: FraktuRe on March 27, 2009, 08:13:13 pm
^The centurions maybe?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Ace on March 27, 2009, 10:03:35 pm
Sorry, mate; that was metaphoric.

All good, all good.

I was kind of expecting Baltar's cult to lead mass suicide during the finale.

Whatever happened to "The Children of the One Reborn shall find their own world?"

Yeah, the whole "The Children of the One Reborn Shall Found a New Nation" thing led me to expect that Kara and Lee were going to live happily ever after or something. Of course it could refer to the final five, or just about anything else really.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Nightstorm on March 28, 2009, 08:29:50 am
 :confused:

Well, I've read what others have posted, and a week has gone by and I even rewatched it last night.  When Moore said "Frak the plot, it's about the characters!" he didn't exagerate one little bit.  Don't misunderstand this post, I'm a big fan of BSG and love the show.   I also know there's not much that can be done about it now but even as the show was in the last five minutes I kept waiting for SOMETHING to happen that would make sense.  There are so many problems with how that went down I'm not sure where to begin.  I guess I'll start with my biggest gripe and go from there:

In the last three hours of televised BSG they spent about a third of the time doing flashbacks to Caprica pre-war.  I have to ask...what was the point?  How did any of what they show releate to what was happening with the finale?  Baltar has a Dad that he didn't respect because he turned his back on his working class herritage and wanted to be an upper class Caprican.  We already knew that.  Bill Adama didn't retire and stayed in the fleet to command Galactica.  We knew that too, six years ago.  Laura joined up with Adar's presidential campaign to one day become the Sec of Education.  Um, yea six years ago on that one too.  Kara gets wasted and wants to frak the first thing with a heart beat and male genitles...I think we firmly established that early on as well.  So....we've wasted one third of the last three hours on non sensical information that doesn't further the story line and does little to fill in any of the unexplained questions.  Ok.  Moving on.  God/Gods/Greater all powerful being of nature/insert metaphysical reference here did it.  Fine.  Almost as bad of a plot tool as time travel or "it was all just a dream".  Ok.  Kara was never there?  Nah, had to be.  She just popped out of existence the same way she popped in with a brand new shiny 40 year old viper.  I mean come on.....that whole sequence from start to finish with the final five being major human characters was a left turn that ran into the ditch in my opinion.  Should never have happened that way.  The little girl that is the salvation of us all was taken by the evil Cavil.  Let's take the ship, get dozens of people killed, get the big G all busted up, and got get her gods dammit!  She's important!  So important in fact, that the most noteable thing she did was give Kara a set of musical notes that she figures out are jump coordinates to the new "Earth" so that little human/cylon girl can run through the field chasing butterflies.  Hmm...the survival of TWO species depends on her.  For what?  To find a rock to live on?  Been there done that, New Caprica.  Cavil doesn't get his way...he off's him self.  WTF?  Bill Adama decides because Laura isn't gonna make it, he's going to build a cabin in her memory and spend the rest of his days talking to her grave.  Oh, yea...what's he going to build it with?  Galen wants to go live up in the moutains by himself where it cold.  He doesn't even have a winter coat.  Lee want's to "Climb the moutains and cross the oceans and EXPLORE!"  He doesn't even have a rope.  We've got all of this tech but lets lower ourselves to the same level as the tribal folks we just found.  Lets just fly all of our ships into the sun because Lee wants to start over.  Sure, that makes sense....but not really.  Seriously?  That was the best they could do?  Add to that, they give the Centurians a base ship all to themselves and let them jump off to do whatever makes their little mechanical CPU's happy.  Hmm...lets leave them with tech superior to ours with nuclear weapons, raiders, jump drive and then we'll chuck it all and start using sticks and stones.  Now THERES a good idea if I ever saw one.  Ok, rant off.  How about this for a better idea:

They established that they were seeding the colonials all over the planet.  They have all of this advanced tech.  Why not have used that hour of wasted flashback sequences and established things like....the basis for most of our mythology.  The Pyramids in Egypt, South America, the City of Atlantis, (Battlestar Atlantia anyone?)  They could have done SO MUCH MORE that would have made sense without altering the out come.  I know this was rather jumbled, but hey...that's how the series left me.  All mixed up and saying What the Frak?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Deckard on March 28, 2009, 08:42:40 am
Well, I do see those flashbacks as an smart way to introduce fans into the upcoming Caprica show.. :P
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: FraktuRe on March 28, 2009, 08:45:20 am
All I can say to you nightstorm, is cry some more.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2009, 08:48:23 am
I think Nightstorm has some valid criticisms from some perspectives.

The flashbacks, I think, showed us critical things about the character arcs -- and demonstrated how far they'd come.

Hera was important because she was fated to be the ancestor of all of us here on Earth, Cylon-Human hybrids.

As for God, its role in the series has been foreshadowed/established since '33'. It wasn't a clumsy plot device; it was an obvious payoff.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: The E on March 28, 2009, 08:54:17 am
Well, I liked the Finale because it was more about the characters. Seeing the points where the various people made the decisions that ultimately brought them to being part of the RTF made the whole story just that much more complete to me. Also, BSG always had bits of ambiguity all through its mythology, leaving questions unanswered is just par for the course here. IMHO, Ron Moore was right, because the show was always centered on the characters, not the plot. Cavill kills himself because he knows that even if he could get off Galactica, his dream of one day becoming more than human (and, of course, gaining immortality) will never come true.
As for "finding a rock to live on", what has become clear during the run of the show, is that habitable planets are about as rare as they are in reality. They had to land on our Earth, because there were proto-humans already living here, which not only allows but ensures humanity's survival. As for laying the groundwork for our mythology....Didn't you hear Lee say "we'll give them everything that was good about us"? He believed that, on a philosophical level, humanity wasn't ready for the level of technology it attained on the twelve colonies, and that giving the people of Earth a headstart on philosophy, rather than technology, might be a good idea.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Black Wolf on March 28, 2009, 12:14:35 pm
All I can say to you nightstorm, is cry some more.

Thank you for your insightful addition to the conversation. :rolleyes: Don't be a wanker, k?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: karajorma on March 28, 2009, 01:08:16 pm
All I can say to you nightstorm, is cry some more.

Either answer his post in a respectful manner or don't post at all.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Nightstorm on March 28, 2009, 03:53:12 pm
All I can say to you nightstorm, is cry some more.

Either answer his post in a respectful manner or don't post at all.

Thank you for that Kara, Its nice to have a medium where one can voice their opinion without such an innapropriate response.  My opinions may or may not be shared by others, I voiced them in this discussion thread because hey...they were my opinions.  Take them as you see fit.  :)
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Locutus of Borg on March 28, 2009, 06:43:02 pm
I think Nightstorm has some valid criticisms from some perspectives.

The flashbacks, I think, showed us critical things about the character arcs -- and demonstrated how far they'd come.

Hera was important because she was fated to be the ancestor of all of us here on Earth, Cylon-Human hybrids.

As for God, its role in the series has been foreshadowed/established since '33'. It wasn't a clumsy plot device; it was an obvious payoff.

My question is, why Hera?

Why couldn't someone else have a hybrid child? Helo and Athena could go at ti again? Baltar and Six could try it, without protection.

Why was she so important that they had to crap the ship and lose several people.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: karajorma on March 28, 2009, 06:50:57 pm
If they hadn't gone after Hera then the situation wouldn't have arisen where Starbuck had to enter coordinates into Galactica's nav computer and they'd never have found Earth.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Fish on March 28, 2009, 07:05:27 pm
And Cavil would probably have reverse-engineered some sort of procreation abilities from her, and the Cylons he led would have still been a threat.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Locutus of Borg on March 28, 2009, 07:28:46 pm
But my question is;

Why is she so frakking important to rescue? What INCLINED them to go?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Nightstorm on March 28, 2009, 07:59:43 pm
But my question is;

Why is she so frakking important to rescue? What INCLINED them to go?

Yes exactly one of my points.  At no time do I ever recall Bill Adama stating that Hera was critical to the survival of the human race and I would find it difficult to accept that the survival of the Cylon race gave him sleepless nights.  Why risk the loss of the ship, fighrers, irreplaceable trained pilots and personel to rescue ONE child.  I understnad it was a needed plot device to end the series as they did, but the way it unfolded just seemed incongruous with personality of the character to date.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: The E on March 28, 2009, 08:12:46 pm
I disagree. My read on that was that Adamas decision had more to do with not letting Galactica die quietly, but letting her last actions have meaning. Basically, after Anders gave them the Colony's coordinates, they had an option not only to rescue Hera, but also have a shot at killing a cylon stronghold, thus giving themselves a little bit more breathing room with Cavills' forces.
Oh, and the fact that Adama got sentimental because he really cares about his ship and the people aboard her, like, for example, Helo and Athena.
But then, I am perfectly content with the ending not being 100% logical, because the emotional payoff made it worthwhile for me. I do not need every i dotted and every t crossed if it feels right. On a sidenote, a series like BSG is probably impossible to finish to everyones satisfaction...
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Angreifer on March 28, 2009, 10:33:54 pm
I disagree. My read on that was that Adamas decision had more to do with not letting Galactica die quietly, but letting her last actions have meaning.

This, to be honest. It really boils down to symbolism. Hera was important not even so much for who she was, but what she represented. She represented the union of Human and Cylon. If she were to die, or be used by Cavil's faction, she loses her power as a symbol. Also, Galactica's last battle was symbolic. Adama was not prepared to let her go quietly into the night; she's a warship, and a warship deserves better. Don't believe me? Go back to the miniseries...Adama, and most of the crew, was very uncomfortable with the idea of Galactica becoming a museum, because it was a fate that a ship designed to fight didn't deserve. So put the importance of Hera as a symbol together with the desire to give Galactica one last fight, and you get the events that occurred in the finale.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Nightstorm on March 29, 2009, 12:04:53 am
That makes far more sense than simply taking a look at a picture and then deciding to risk life and limb for the sake of one child.  I do agree that that last battle was symbolic, and the way they went about it knowing going in that it was her last battle made them take actions they wouldn't have ever considered before.  Ramming the Big G right into the side of the colony was pretty cool.  Not quite sure what the point was though of jumping the raptors OUT of the unused flight pod.  I get that it was for a stealthier approach, but they could have just as easily pulled the same move they did when Lee and crew abandoned Pegasus.  It was a neat affect though and one of those "Holy frak" moments when you just knew she wasn't coming out of this one with her skin intact.  To be honest...in stead of flying into the sun, which is more or less going quietly into the night, even if her back was broken...I'd rather have seen some kind of set up where they jumped her right into Cavils base ship or some such.  Yea I know he wasn't on one at the end, but that would have been one spectacular ending to the ship.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Vip on March 29, 2009, 06:32:46 am
Not quite sure what the point was though of jumping the raptors OUT of the unused flight pod.  I get that it was for a stealthier approach, but they could have just as easily pulled the same move they did when Lee and crew abandoned Pegasus. 

Actually, the entire explanation for this was cut of from the version that aired on TV. The Raptors were to jump unnoticed some distance from the Colony and then fire the nukes to destabilise its orbit and plunge it into the black hole (notice the entire spinning after Racetrack fires here nukes and how the nukes didn't manage to destroy the Colony or even seriously damage it). But much of this was cut off from the version we got, so now the Raptors scene makes little sense.

Info comes from Bear McCreary's blog.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Angreifer on March 29, 2009, 10:08:12 am
Can't wait to get the DVDs, I'm looking forward to some Extended Edition and Deleted Scenes fun :P
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Locutus of Borg on March 29, 2009, 10:31:56 am
Not quite sure what the point was though of jumping the raptors OUT of the unused flight pod.  I get that it was for a stealthier approach, but they could have just as easily pulled the same move they did when Lee and crew abandoned Pegasus. 

Actually, the entire explanation for this was cut of from the version that aired on TV. The Raptors were to jump unnoticed some distance from the Colony and then fire the nukes to destabilise its orbit and plunge it into the black hole (notice the entire spinning after Racetrack fires here nukes and how the nukes didn't manage to destroy the Colony or even seriously damage it). But much of this was cut off from the version we got, so now the Raptors scene makes little sense.

Info comes from Bear McCreary's blog.

Wait...who's blog?

Is that the drum guy?
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: General Battuta on March 29, 2009, 06:03:11 pm
Not quite sure what the point was though of jumping the raptors OUT of the unused flight pod.  I get that it was for a stealthier approach, but they could have just as easily pulled the same move they did when Lee and crew abandoned Pegasus. 

Actually, the entire explanation for this was cut of from the version that aired on TV. The Raptors were to jump unnoticed some distance from the Colony and then fire the nukes to destabilise its orbit and plunge it into the black hole (notice the entire spinning after Racetrack fires here nukes and how the nukes didn't manage to destroy the Colony or even seriously damage it). But much of this was cut off from the version we got, so now the Raptors scene makes little sense.

Info comes from Bear McCreary's blog.

Wait...who's blog?

Is that the drum guy?

Har har.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: TripRussell8142 on March 29, 2009, 06:05:25 pm
Not quite sure what the point was though of jumping the raptors OUT of the unused flight pod.  I get that it was for a stealthier approach, but they could have just as easily pulled the same move they did when Lee and crew abandoned Pegasus. 

Actually, the entire explanation for this was cut of from the version that aired on TV. The Raptors were to jump unnoticed some distance from the Colony and then fire the nukes to destabilise its orbit and plunge it into the black hole (notice the entire spinning after Racetrack fires here nukes and how the nukes didn't manage to destroy the Colony or even seriously damage it). But much of this was cut off from the version we got, so now the Raptors scene makes little sense.

Info comes from Bear McCreary's blog.

Wait...who's blog?

Is that the drum guy?

yep... that drum guy.. that Irish Bear  :yes2:
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Snagger on April 01, 2009, 04:30:44 am
The reason for rescuing Hera may be another "destiny" thing.  By attacking the colony, Galactica fulfilled her destiny, the very task she was built for - destroying the Cylons.  With the colony gone, the only remaining Cylons were those aboard any Basestars and in the Colonial Fleet.  Given the loss of resurrection some time ago, all "skin jobs" will cease to exist within a generation, as will the modern Basestars with hybrids at their cores.  That can only leave the stranded Centurions and any old (TOS) type Basestars, of which there probably weren't any left.  By going back for Hera, Galactica destroyed the bulk of the Cylon race and put humanity beyond the reaches of the remnants.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Kosh on April 06, 2009, 08:59:11 pm
They've still got a couple of baseships on the loose.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: FraktuRe on April 07, 2009, 06:43:28 am
No they don't, they died out 150000 years ago.

Sure, the centurions may be around, but who knows what'd they'd look like by now.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: tikey on April 07, 2009, 09:06:14 am
Maybe they look like us now. Maybe some of them are programmed to believe they are human, and maybe (just maybe) they have a plan.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Angelus on April 07, 2009, 09:21:02 am
Maybe they look like us now. Maybe some of them are programmed to believe they are human, and maybe (just maybe) they have a plan.


They do look like us now.
They are programmed to believe they are human.
They started a company - M$, and they do have a plan.  :P
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: General Battuta on April 07, 2009, 09:23:57 am
Maybe they look like us now. Maybe some of them are programmed to believe they are human, and maybe (just maybe) they have a plan.


They do look like us now.
They are programmed to believe they are human.
They started a company - M$, and they do have a plan.  :P

Given the design of the Cylon SpyPod we saw in the Miniseries/Kobol's Last Gleaming, and Cylon software expertise, and their general hipness, I think it much more likely they're running Apple.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: The E on April 07, 2009, 09:25:46 am
Also, everyone knows that MS is evil. Apple is a much better cover.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Angelus on April 07, 2009, 09:34:55 am
Maybe they look like us now. Maybe some of them are programmed to believe they are human, and maybe (just maybe) they have a plan.


They do look like us now.
They are programmed to believe they are human.
They started a company - M$, and they do have a plan.  :P

Given the design of the Cylon SpyPod we saw in the Miniseries/Kobol's Last Gleaming, and Cylon software expertise, and their general hipness, I think it much more likely they're running Apple.


Hm, there are two Cylon factions, Cavill's evil hordes, and the renegade Cylons.
Wait, no the renegades are responsible for Linux... :P
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: Dark Knight on April 07, 2009, 11:35:48 am
No. no. no! The Cylons went away and found their own new home world, and they named it ... Cybertron.
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: IceFire on April 07, 2009, 07:39:49 pm
No. no. no! The Cylons went away and found their own new home world, and they named it ... Cybertron.
...and then they lost the Allspark so they went looking and found a planet with Megan Fox on it :D
Title: Re: Ep. 421 "Daybreak: Part 2" Discussion (SPOILERS)
Post by: KypFisto on April 13, 2009, 12:35:22 am
No. no. no! The Cylons went away and found their own new home world, and they named it ... Cybertron.
...and then they lost the Allspark so they went looking and found a planet with Megan Fox on it :D
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b131/Kypfisto/Cylon-DecepticonRelation.jpg)

Hmmm...