Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Lucika on March 22, 2009, 12:01:24 pm
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Since I can't find any reason to insert them in it's belly.
Considering what I know from canon (and note that I didn't write CANON), the mere size of the Lucy's explosion and the energy emitted by that was what collapsed the node.
If so, why did we fill the Bastion with Mesons?
And if the energy from the Mesons was necessary why didn't you just put'em up on Argos or what were used at the Knossos and send them into the node - without crew, of course?
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Because an Orion is just a little bit harder to kill than an Argo?
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Because an Orion is just a little bit harder to kill than an Argo?
Would the Shivans care about 3 Argos moving alone towards Capella?
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They care about everything and attack whatever's not Shivan (or speaking Shivan).
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The problem is, do you rely on the shivans to ignore the transports, or do you use a delivery vehicle that actually has a chance to reach the target when it comes under fire? Since they didn't have that many meson bombs available, I guess command just didn't want to take the chance.
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I give that point to you, but it isn't canon. The assumption comes from that Alpha 1 ironically never participated in a boring, enemyless escort mission.
Other par of my question what I think you forgot about: Wouldn't the sheer explosion of the Basion do the trick?
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Probably. But again, why take that chance?
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The Lucy was a tiny bit bigger than the average Orion, but I think the main source of energy were its big reactors needed to power the shields. The Bastion's energy output would have been less.
They have probably overdone it with all the meson bombs, but indeed, why take the chance.
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The Lucy was a tiny bit bigger than the average Orion, but I think the main source of energy were its big reactors needed to power the shields. The Bastion's energy output would have been less.
They have probably overdone it with all the meson bombs, but indeed, why take the chance.
And were the Mesons developed in Gamma Draconis or what? If they were (or would have been) developes in the heart of the GTVA, then why did they transfer them out just to rush back with them to Capella? It wasn't necessary to face the Shivan armada at all.
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They were developed at the Hideki institute in Vega
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Command had two possible routes Vega->Capella or Vega->Deneb->Sirius->Regulus->Polaris->Epsilon Pegasi
Hardly surprising that they picked the shorter, more dangerous one.
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Command had two possible routes Vega->Capella or Vega->Deneb->Sirius->Regulus->Polaris->Epsilon Pegasi
Hardly surprising that they picked the shorter, more dangerous one.
Is it posssible that Intersystem jump - recharge - jump to the other node - recharge - jump again?
If so, why didn't the Bastion (or any ship) goes like that?
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What do you mean?
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Simply put, it's the age-old question of "Why do they always jump in so far from the node?"
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Simply put, it's the age-old question of "Why do they always jump in so far from the node?"
"To give Alpha 1 a job."
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Presumably so as to be a moving target while jump drives recharge.
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The reason they needed Meson's is because The detonation of the Lucifer and its reactors destabilized the sol node. The Lucifer was packing allot more hardware, weapons, and those five reactors, who's explosive firepower is enough to blow away a super destroyer if detonated within a reasonable time, I think, would far out weigh the explosive firepower of a retired Orion class destroyer alone, or a Fully armed FS2 Era V/T destroyer of any sort.
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I'm guessing it's a combination of raw explosion size (5 reactors on Lucifer, several meson bombs on Bastion) and mass (Pure size of Lucifer and Bastion) that prevented them from just towing some meson warheads into the node and remotely detonating them. Course, I don't know much about physics, and even less about subspace physics.
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With the survival of the Terran and Vasudan species at stake, the GTVA didn't want to take chances on a phenomenon that had never been properly observed before. The Lucifer's explosion was probably bigger than a normal Orion's. Maybe the Capella-Epsilon Pegasi node was more stable, and would take a bigger explosion, than the Sol-Delta Serpentis node. A gutted Orion stood a better chance than freighters, of getting the bombs safely to the node.
Why did they jump in so far away? We can only speculate, but maybe intrasystem jumps don't work for large-mass capital ships, when they are too close to a node. Karajorma's explanation works, too.
EDIT: Yes, I meant Delta Serpentis...
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Sol-Delta Serpentis you mean.
Gamma Draconis is where the knossos is.
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Simply put, it's the age-old question of "Why do they always jump in so far from the node?"
Well, if it were a Knossos, the answer has already been provided by the Psamtik.
If it were a normal node, however, it's probably done for safety reasons. Canon has established that jump drives need to recharge, so if a warship jumped out of subspace and directly into a node, it has to wait for quite a while in order for its jump drives to recharge, during which it would be slightly more vulnerable to being disabled or whatever, because any warheads aimed at its subsystems or turrets will hit home if the warship's point defences are inadequate. If it moves, however, the chances of a warhead knocking out a subsystem or turret is slightly lower, because most warheads take a lag-based approach rather than a lead-based one.
There's also the matter of a jump node being used often. If you have a warship sitting inside a jump node waiting for its drives to recharge, and a Hippocrates jumps in, it can't use the node because the warship has parked itself in it.
And then there are traffic issues as well. Imagine if a ship is waiting for its jump drives to recharge at a node, and you have twenty other ships waiting for it to recharge, with a few more ships jumping in near the node every minute. The jump node will experience a bottleneck.
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Personally I think probably the Capella-Epsilon Pegasi node is more stable than the Sol-Delta Serpentis node. And yes, the Lucy has a lot more explosive power than an orion, who knows, maybe those reactors release more energy than the meson bombs.
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I find it more likely that the GTVA simply didn't want to risk the node staying stable enough for the Shivans to get through. The Orion by itself might have destabilized the node enough for GTVA traffic to be unable to transit it, but the Shivans can go through nodes that are too unstable for the GTVA.
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Well, if it were a Knossos, the answer has already been provided by the Psamtik.
If it were a normal node, however, it's probably done for safety reasons. Canon has established that jump drives need to recharge, so if a warship jumped out of subspace and directly into a node, it has to wait for quite a while in order for its jump drives to recharge, during which it would be slightly more vulnerable to being disabled or whatever, because any warheads aimed at its subsystems or turrets will hit home if the warship's point defences are inadequate. If it moves, however, the chances of a warhead knocking out a subsystem or turret is slightly lower, because most warheads take a lag-based approach rather than a lead-based one.
There's also the matter of a jump node being used often. If you have a warship sitting inside a jump node waiting for its drives to recharge, and a Hippocrates jumps in, it can't use the node because the warship has parked itself in it.
And then there are traffic issues as well. Imagine if a ship is waiting for its jump drives to recharge at a node, and you have twenty other ships waiting for it to recharge, with a few more ships jumping in near the node every minute. The jump node will experience a bottleneck.
:yes:
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Or risk being rammed be ships coming out of the node. :lol:
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That makes me think of the JAD mission with the GTCv Pork (?) literally blockading a node and the NTC LOL jumps into its broadside.
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That makes me think of the JAD mission with the GTCv Pork (?) literally blockading a node and the GTC LOL jumps into its broadside.
You got the Pork correct.
However, the Lol was an NTF cruiser.
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Doh, damn two factions having the same type of ship.
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Because an Orion is just a little bit harder to kill than an Argo?
Would the Shivans care about 3 Argos moving alone towards Capella?
They care about everything and attack whatever's not Shivan (or speaking Shivan).
To be honest I believe they'd be more interested on taking down Argo transports rather than engaging an Orion. Also, there are two things we might consider:
1) The Shivans might have been able to detect the presence of Meson bombs within the Bastion's hull, so they had at least one reason to get suspicious. Also, the Orion entered Capella and moved straight to the other jump node...this may be considered a weird movement;
2) Argo or Orion, whatever carried the Meson bombs must have had an escort. A complement of spacecraft and warships escorting an Orion is not weird at all while a similar deployment of forces all around a very limited number of Argo transports may seem a bit weird, giving the fact that even larger civilian convoys have much weaker escort complements;
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Because an Orion is just a little bit harder to kill than an Argo?
Would the Shivans care about 3 Argos moving alone towards Capella?
They care about everything and attack whatever's not Shivan (or speaking Shivan).
To be honest I believe they'd be more interested on taking down Argo transports rather than engaging an Orion. Also, there are two things we might consider:
1) The Shivans might have been able to detect the presence of Meson bombs within the Bastion's hull, so they had at least one reason to get suspicious. Also, the Orion entered Capella and moved straight to the other jump node...this may be considered a weird movement;
2) Argo or Orion, whatever carried the Meson bombs must have had an escort. A complement of spacecraft and warships escorting an Orion is not weird at all while a similar deployment of forces all around a very limited number of Argo transports may seem a bit weird, giving the fact that even larger civilian convoys have much weaker escort complements;
What if they send the Orion with full escort (what would have been destroyed without the Holy Alpha 1) as a decoy and THEN they'd send the 3 Argos?
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Uhm...the three Aeolus cruisers are pretty capable of defending the Bastion, with or without Alpha 1...
And even if you did send the Orion, then three argos, the Shivans would still go after the three argos.
It's not like the Shivans have only a limited number of forces, no. They VASTLY outnumber the GTVA, which means that decoys are pretty worthless. Especially since you don't know if the Shivans can detect Meson bombs or not. If they can, your entire plan is worthless. That's pretty stupid if you ask me. Just shove them onto something survivable, and give it good escort. Why bother with tricks that might not even work? Seems like you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist, by making a bigger problem.
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What about this explanation: emotional effect (since the Bastion is a well known destroyer from FS1).
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What about this explanation: emotional effect (since the Bastion is a well known destroyer from FS1).
Didn't feel much about the Bastion dying, to be honest, but that's a possibility.
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I thought the Bastion was the destroyer version of the Oberon. Both are antique, decommissioned warships.
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If you played FS1 first, you'll know the moment you see it that the Bastion is an old warhorse with 40+ years on it. It deserved to go out with a big bang.
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Would a meson bomb fit in an Argo?
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From what we have seen, kind of.
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They probably wanted to put the bombs into a destroyer to accurately mimic what happened with the Lucifer and the Sol jump node. There really was no margin for error. The exact sciences behind the Sol jump node collapse probably wasn't completely understood but they DID know that it was a destroyer class ship exploding with 5 reactors that most likely caused the collapse.
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They probably went for overkill, because it's all or nothing. If it's one bomb short of collapsing the node, all the meson bombs used, all the effort getting it to the node, etc. were wasted.
Might as well stuff in a few more, make sure it works.
They GTVA is probably unsure as to what exactly caused the node to collapse (was it the explosion energy, or was it the mass, or was it both?) Best way to get around that is to duplicate the situation as best as possible for what was known to work. Since they didn't have a spare Lucifer on hand (nor a Hades), they used an Orion.
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They did have a Colossus, but that took twenty years to make and they can't bring themselves to blow it up. This is more so given that it had only seen a few months' worth of operations at most.
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Not to mention the Shivans took it out for them.
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The Colossus' destruction could have been avoided however - it was just that the Colossus' captain decided to sacrifice the ship to ensure the Bastion safely made its run.
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How command intended for the Colossus to withdraw when it was disabled is beyond me.
Command and the Colossus's lines made it seem like there was a choice to stay behind. To me, it looks like the Colly was ****ed over the moment it got disabled...which was some time before 'Their Finest Hour'.
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Uhh, Droid, the Colossus is disabled for FREDding reasons. Go and open sm3-08 in FRED2 or fred2_Open. Canonically, it's not disabled during the duration of Their Finest Hour.
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I'm more inclined to believe that what you see in the game is better indication of canon than the mission file.
Yeah, it was PLANNED for it to have a waypoint path and stuff, but the thing is, you look at it in game, it says it's disabled.
Therefore, canonically, it is disabled.
Regardless of what reasons, that is all a normal player would see. A non-modder would never see the waypoint paths intended for it.
I know that it had other things planned for it, but it's disabled in game.
Besides, we were never told by :v: that the waypoint paths and stuff were what the mission was intended to be. Perhaps the changes were intentional?
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Might have been the remnants of another Colossus mission. :lol: