Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Aquilonius on March 25, 2009, 01:52:49 pm
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I was just looking at the Freespace Official Universe Map and the map here. (http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/4738/nodechartdwoutn3.png)
If I remember right, the first attack illustrated in Freespace: The Great War is on Ross 128, right?
Take a look at the nodes connecting to Ross 128 on both maps.
We can assume that the Shivans came from the Laramis region, since they had to go through Delta Seprentis to reach Sol. But for some reason, they don't reach Delta Serpentis until near the end of the game.
Does anyone else see what I'm getting at here?
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That starmap is for the BWO universe, which is not canon for the main FreeSpace universe. All systems behind Altair, in fact, are nowhere to be found in canon sources.
The Shivans entered Ross 128, but I'm pretty sure they didn't come from Laramis, because someone would have noticed them - Laramis is not a desert system. From the GTC Aeolus' tech description we know, in fact, that the system housed at least one major shipyard in the Reconstruction Era.
Overall, you're probably forgetting that the Shivans entered Terran-Vasudan space in Ikeya as well. The Lucifer jumped to Ross 128, but...at this point, this leads me to believe that the Shivans preferred to strike Sol later. I may be missing one or more pieces of the puzzle, though.
(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Fsnodemap.jpg)
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Yeah, I did forget about Ikeya. But still, the Ross 128 thing was just something I noticed - both maps show that from Ross 128, there is only one way they can get into Vasudan space.
Of course, Ikeya makes that irrelevant.
But then, I'd also want to know this: If the Shivans came into Ross 128 from somewhere other than Laramis, and they also entered by Ikeya...how the *** did they get there!? According to the canon map, there are no other (known) jump nodes to Ikeya than Ribos, and Ross 128 only goes to Laramis and Delta Serpentis.
Of course, that's part of the point...no one knows. Ah, well. I guess I'll have to have to be tortured with not knowing.
Damn Volition for leaving the story incomplete!
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The story isn't incomplete - it's suspected that they used unstable nodes the Terrans or Vasudans would never use. That allowed the Shivans to enter T-V space from unknown locations.
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The story isn't incomplete - it's suspected that they used unstable nodes the Terrans or Vasudans would never use. That allowed the Shivans to enter T-V space from unknown locations.
Which is a great plot device to explain away some inconsistencies in canon. :)
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Petrarch mentioned intersystem jumps(made without using nodes) near the end of the main FreeSpace 2 campaign, though.
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And he also said that there's no evidence to support it, and that he believes that Shivans are just as dependent on jump nodes as the Terrans and Vasudans are, just that they use uncharted and unstable jump nodes.
There may have been a highly unstable jump node leading to Ross 128 (which would not be on the charts), or, the Lucifer may have jumped in from a then-stable jump node long ago which has since disappeared, and has been lying low somewhere after like in an asteroid belt or someplace, shut down completely, for many years until something triggered its awakening...(maybe the GTI?)
The Lucifer might have only decided to nuke homeworlds later, bypassing Sol when it went to the other systems.
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Maybe the GTI actually did something to the shivans that made them back off and regroup elsewhere.
Or here's something better: There was 2 Lucifers.
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Then what happened to the other one?
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And he also said that there's no evidence to support it, and that he believes that Shivans are just as dependent on jump nodes as the Terrans and Vasudans are, just that they use uncharted and unstable jump nodes.
They do have a superior knowledge of subspace, which may allow them to travel using unstable nodes.
Also, the Lucifer may have been lying low somewhere, like in an asteroid belt or someplace, shut down completely, for many years until something triggered its awakening...(maybe the GTI?)
Assuming that this theory might be valid, where did the rest of the Lucifer Fleet hide? There were too many warships and spacecraft...
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And he also said that there's no evidence to support it, and that he believes that Shivans are just as dependent on jump nodes as the Terrans and Vasudans are, just that they use uncharted and unstable jump nodes.
They do have a superior knowledge of subspace, which may allow them to travel using unstable nodes.
Also, the Lucifer may have been lying low somewhere, like in an asteroid belt or someplace, shut down completely, for many years until something triggered its awakening...(maybe the GTI?)
Assuming that this theory might be valid, where did the rest of the Lucifer Fleet hide? There were too many warships and spacecraft...
In the theory's defence, maybe the Lucifer called for backup?
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But why would it be there in the first place? The Shivans don't leave ships...they enter systems, slaughter one or more species and then go away. There were no Shivan ships left in GTVA systems that once belonged to the Ancient Empire, although you can give for sure that 8,000 years before FS2 the Shivans stormed those systems.
I think you're giving too much importance to this non-canon ship (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/SD_Nyarlathotep).
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This sounds like it supports the theory where the Shivans were testing the Terrans and Vasudans.
They've had the means to destroy everyone, and could have used it easily. They could have brought in the Sathani fleet before the Knossos was discovered in Epsilon Pegasai. Maybe they didn't go directly for Sol because that would invalidate the test?
But yes, I do believe that the Shivans have knowledge of nodes unknown or too unstable for Terran and Vasudan ships. Petrarch's line at the end of the game was put there for a reason/
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This sounds like it supports the theory where the Shivans were testing the Terrans and Vasudans.
They've had the means to destroy everyone, and could have used it easily. They could have brought in the Sathani fleet before the Knossos was discovered in Epsilon Pegasai. Maybe they didn't go directly for Sol because that would invalidate the test?
But yes, I do believe that the Shivans have knowledge of nodes unknown or too unstable for Terran and Vasudan ships. Petrarch's line at the end of the game was put there for a reason/
A test for what? Our luck at finding old artifacts?
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The ability to adapt, and to learn from the past? Donno.
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I think the Shivans aren't supposed to let "dangerous" species learn how to adapt and survive. If a species a threat for the cosmos, the Shivans simply annihilate it. They don't want to teach anything.
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Then I'm not sure what the ending to FS2 does exactly to annihilate us?
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They inflicted severe casualties to the GTVA fleet. Also, please note that the destruction of Capella is not to be considered the end of a series of events, but rather one of the pieces of a greater puzzle. Petrarch clearly said that the destructions of the jump nodes leading to Capella would have been nothing but a "temporary measure", meaning that the Shivans could enter GTVA space later(and from other locations).
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They used 80 Sathanas Juggernauts to blow up Capella to.... come back with more guys? Bigger ships?
Why wait? They could have blown us out the of sky (so to speak) with that fleet.
Now I'm not saying I know the overall goal, but if "they came to kill us all because we're a threat", they botched the job.
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There's no FS3 so we don't know...
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So we go with what we see.
We open the door, Shivans pop in and say hi. We fight.
They bring in the big guns. We go "Oh noes!" and try to close the doors. They blow up a star and go... somewhere.
Since this happens many years after the first time we fought them, this does not look like "they're coming to get us cause we're dangerous"
Maybe the 3rd would have wrapped it up.
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Here's a thought that just popped up...
What if the Shivans were on the run as well form a common enemy that used shields on all capships? As they didn't/couldn't communicate directly, what better way to teach than to emulate a possible common foe's tactics? IF you can't hit their caps and they're just pushing through... it wouldn't really explain why to nuke Vasuda Prime instead of some other planet though. Eh--just a thought. Would also explain why they took so "warmly" to Bosch in FS2--when they could talk, they took him with them.
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If I'm being chased by a bear, I don't stop and beat up a fox because that's what the bear would do.
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Wow...that's weird...I'd beat up the fox every time
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Well, I'd kick it out of the way if it was in my path so I don't trip over it or something...
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But if they (the Shivans) had a head start (say, 30 years) and a small but strong force, it would be an interesting idea to basically hop around and teach others to defend themselves so to slow the pursuers. Who knows really--I just think it would be an interesting concept, as though the Lucy fleet was a rogue element of the great Shivan race and was racing around making other civilizations learn to defend themselves, so to eventually topple the non-rebelling empire or whatever (after all, who wants to fight through dozens of civilizations to get a rogue fleet?)
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Given the Shivans destroyed the Ancient's empire, and given GTVA space occupies only a small portion of that empire, it's clear the Shivans could appear from any border of the GTVA. I don't think blocking Capella stopped the Shivans specifically but clearly disrupted their overall goal(s).
Not that any of this matters as we'll never know what V had in mind for FS3.
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Very good point indeed, but we know from canon sources that the Shivans slaughetered the Ancients starting from one system. They did not jump in simultaneously to, let's say, 50 Ancient systems - they spread their forces starting from that system. The already present network of Knossos devices did the rest.
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Don't forget that the first Knossos that we know of was missed in a scan of the system...It's plausible that other Knossos' may have also existed in other systems that had been missed...
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Good and bad point, at the same time.
Good point, because Knossos portals might be extremely difficult to detect if they're not activated and/or there's no activity near them.
Bad point, because Gamma Draconis was a recently discovered and poor system...with no tactical importance. The Erikson never found the Knossos but this might have happened because of the Erikson's detection systems and not because of the Knossos itself.
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But did we let the Shivans in by opening the door or were they coming after us from the first time and it took them this long to get around?
I think the former.
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But did we let the Shivans in by opening the door or were they coming after us from the first time and it took them this long to get around?
I think the former.
I agree, if the shivans were coming after us from the first time I think they would have sent a larger force than lucy and friends to destroy the GTA and the PVN. they would have slaughtered the them in FS1 when anti cap-ship warfare consisted of light torpedos and blowing green snot on each other.
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Good and bad point, at the same time.
Good point, because Knossos portals might be extremely difficult to detect if they're not activated and/or there's no activity near them.
Bad point, because Gamma Draconis was a recently discovered and poor system...with no tactical importance. The Erikson never found the Knossos but this might have happened because of the Erikson's detection systems and not because of the Knossos itself.
For all we'd know, there could be a dozen Knossos in T/V space, waiting to be activated. My question is why node-exploration takes so long. I'd think that, at least on the Human side, they'd send disposable probes on unstable nodes just to get a better grip on what's what.
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For all we'd know, there could be a dozen Knossos in T/V space, waiting to be activated. My question is why node-exploration takes so long. I'd think that, at least on the Human side, they'd send disposable probes on unstable nodes just to get a better grip on what's what.
I think the gtva should definitely poor over more ancient sites to figure out which parts of the ancient empire gtva space currently occupies, and you may find some knossoses at the regions where gtva space stops and the ancient empire boundaries go on. Definitely put a high priority on ancient artifact excavation and studying in the mean time, you're bound to learn many things about the shivans and the ancients that way.
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Question: what do those lines off the edge of the nodemap mean? (I've always wondered)
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Question: what do those lines off the edge of the nodemap mean? (I've always wondered)
Somewhere that nobody knows? I'm actually wondering why there aren't more pirate factions. Perhaps those "uncharted" areas are occupied by pirates? What I am thinking is that you'd be able to get enough dissenters to try to map out the nodes and do deep-space trade... get materials unavailable inside GTVA space.
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I'm sure there are pirate factions. I would think they would operate closer to civilian populations though.
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I'm sure there are pirate factions. I would think they would operate closer to civilian populations though.
Eh. Humans have always wanted to explore and get away from authority. I wouldn't be surprised if there were hundreds of thousands of humans away from Sol and T/V space.
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I'm sure there are pirate factions. I would think they would operate closer to civilian populations though.
Eh. Humans have always wanted to explore and get away from authority. I wouldn't be surprised if there were hundreds of thousands of humans away from Sol and T/V space.
Hmm, that'd be interesting. Where would they go? Or would they live on the "Fringe" on their Ships until they found something..
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Ohhh! Campaign Idea!
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Ohhh! Campaign Idea!
:wakka: I should've seen that coming. You'd need someone to create the ships though....The only thing I can think of is T-Man's Civilian Liner.
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Would civilians/pirates even have subspace drives?
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Ohhh! Campaign Idea!
:wakka: I should've seen that coming. You'd need someone to create the ships though....The only thing I can think of is T-Man's Civilian Liner.
Well, for ships one could just use FS1 era stuff, with mabe a few other models that have been nerfed so they make sense (some of Stratcom's curvy ships could make good cruiseliners). Oh, and don't forget the uglys.
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Yeah that sounds plausible
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Not unlike BP's Sanctuary, just a bit simpler and more civilian (meaning, less and worse weapons), I guess.
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Fly the smallest freighter ship and play as a fighter pilot.