Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: DIO on March 29, 2009, 11:02:38 pm
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Do we know if there is a FTL communication (somekind of subspace transmission?) in the Freespace universe?
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Probably.
3rd Fleet HQ can contact you in the nebula which is...who knows how far away from Capella in real-time.
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The real doozy is, why haven't they used it to contact Earth?
Hm, just thought of something, maybe the communication requires a functional node to work properly.
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Then would it be FTL then?
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I've always assumed that communications were relayed through subspace.
The real question is, actually, why Earth hasn't contacted the GTVA via conventional means. Alpha Centauri is only ~20 light years from Sol (probably not precise, but you get the idea).
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I've always assumed that communications were relayed through subspace.
The real question is, actually, why Earth hasn't contacted the GTVA via conventional means. Alpha Centauri is only ~4 light years from Sol (probably not precise, but you get the idea).
Fix'd that for you. And yes it's a plot hole if any. It isn't explained how all contact to Earth can be lost - they should have started transmitting radio messages towards Earth from Alpha Centauri immediately, and gotten some kind of response eight years afterwards. Obviously it must be assumed that there hasn't been an answer, and that can be explained by quite a few ways though they fall in three main categories...
-Earth can't receive the signal. Unlikely considering the GTVA resources and technology, but still possible in case enough Shivan forces got through the node to bring Earth back to stone age or outright destroy the civilization. A case of "There's no one there to answer", if you will, although given the canon ending of Great War, I think the Shivans were eventually defeated by the First Fleet (and Alpha 1). An internal squabble developing into full scale war would also be possible...
-Earth can't transmit the signal. Similar scenarios on smaller scale could hypothetically lead to inability to transmit powerful enough signals to Alpha Centauri.
-Earth doesn't want to respond. There could be many reasons for this. Protectionist, corrupt government? Terran supremacy? Religious revolution? An external threat can easily be used by populistic politicians to get the population to sacrifice freedoms for "safety". It's possible that Earth and Sol system were overtaken by political agenda that does not see it beneficial for them to establish connections to GTVA. They might just be interested in increasing their military might so that if and when the gates to GTVA space open, they can take over and likely destroy or subdue the PVE instead of treating them as partners.
Just a few options...
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I may be making this up, but I seem to recall seeing something saying that signals like that just don't make it that far out.
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Why wouldn't they?
Laser would likely be the best option as far as signal strength is considered, but radio signals wouldn't be impossible to detect with, say, Arecibo or even better with the long base range interferometres (VLA or VLBA). And if they wanted to listen, they would definitely point them straight at Alpha Centauri all the time it was possible.
Not to mention that GTVA has all it's resources apart from Sol system to build as powerful a transmitter as they want, be it a laser, radio or a message capsule/unmanned ship making a long long series of intra-system jumps towards Sol starting from Alpha Centauri. What's the range of destroyer-class subspace drives within a system? Likely quite a bit considering ships jumping around systems like Capella which are HUGE compared to Sol system due to insanely large central star, so let's go with at least 100 AU.
One light-year is 63,241.1 astronomical units. Distance between Sol and Alpha Centauri is 4.37 ly which equals to 276363,607 astronomical units. That makes approximately 2764 100-AU jumps to reach Sol from Alpha Centauri.
If it takes 15 minutes to recharge the jump drives and five minutes to do the jump itself (it might even be instantaneous but we'll go with 20 minutes per jump), assuming there's enough fuel or energy or whatever and the ship holds together for that close to 3000 jumps, it would take about 55280 minutes to reach Sol. 921 hours. 39 days.
Intersystem drives in the long run can be faster than light on average assuming one jump range is longer than roughly 2 AU. 15 light-minutes (commonly used charge-time for jump drives) is about 1.8 AU. I would safely say the ships in FS2 universe can do inter-system jumps longer than that without nodes. So it's not completely unplausible for GTVA to build a ship capable of reaching Sol - perhaps even in reasonable time frame. It probably all boils down to expense of construction of a ship with such vast energy reserves and reliable subspace drives that this was not attempted - even though it arguably could boost morale in the GTVA...
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It could be as simple as standard communications we think of being obsolete. Without a jump node to send the message no one thought of sending or listening for an old style signal.
It's also possible that the Shivans don't know the location of Sol. Even if they knew Earth was on the other side of the node they may not have know where in space the node is. Sending a signal could give them that information. If you were on Earth after the attack would you risk it by transmitting?
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Or it could just be a plot hole.
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It could be as simple as standard communications we think of being obsolete. Without a jump node to send the message no one thought of sending or listening for an old style signal.
That be like forgetting how to write because you type too much. -_-
I believe that the problem being on the Earth side is more plausible.
As for rest of the human race not sending someone there...DIK =/
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Why wouldn't they?
Laser would likely be the best option as far as signal strength is considered, but radio signals wouldn't be impossible to detect with, say, Arecibo or even better with the long base range interferometres (VLA or VLBA). And if they wanted to listen, they would definitely point them straight at Alpha Centauri all the time it was possible.
Not to mention that GTVA has all it's resources apart from Sol system to build as powerful a transmitter as they want, be it a laser, radio or a message capsule/unmanned ship making a long long series of intra-system jumps towards Sol starting from Alpha Centauri. What's the range of destroyer-class subspace drives within a system? Likely quite a bit considering ships jumping around systems like Capella which are HUGE compared to Sol system due to insanely large central star, so let's go with at least 100 AU.
One light-year is 63,241.1 astronomical units. Distance between Sol and Alpha Centauri is 4.37 ly which equals to 276363,607 astronomical units. That makes approximately 2764 100-AU jumps to reach Sol from Alpha Centauri.
If it takes 15 minutes to recharge the jump drives and five minutes to do the jump itself (it might even be instantaneous but we'll go with 20 minutes per jump), assuming there's enough fuel or energy or whatever and the ship holds together for that close to 3000 jumps, it would take about 55280 minutes to reach Sol. 921 hours. 39 days.
Intersystem drives in the long run can be faster than light on average assuming one jump range is longer than roughly 2 AU. 15 light-minutes (commonly used charge-time for jump drives) is about 1.8 AU. I would safely say the ships in FS2 universe can do inter-system jumps longer than that without nodes. So it's not completely unplausible for GTVA to build a ship capable of reaching Sol - perhaps even in reasonable time frame. It probably all boils down to expense of construction of a ship with such vast energy reserves and reliable subspace drives that this was not attempted - even though it arguably could boost morale in the GTVA...
You can't make an intra-system jump when you're not in a system, it requires a gravity well.
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Are you quite sure about this?
Sauce plox.
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Methinks Kie99 is right on this one.
Subspace drives do seem to require gravity wells.
All nodes are natural (even in-system ones, atlough they are everywhere so it's kinda of a moot point)
If there are no natural nodes between systems, then one can't use subspace drives to cross the space between systems (apart from nodes)
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Are you quite sure about this?
Sauce plox.
FS2 Techroom.
"First, an intrasystem jump can occur between two points in a star system. Most small, space-faring vessels are equipped with motivators capable of these short jumps. The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system. "
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Thanks. Scratch that plan then... :sigh:
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Also dont forget, Radio Signals are likely line-on-sight. If beaming from A-Centauri, You would need to know where Earth (or the Sol System) would be in four years time. And you would need precise co-ordinates, if you're off by even a fraction of a degree, you'd miss the system
From Alpha Centauri, Sol is part constellation Cassiopeia, near to Epsilon Cassiopeia. So thats a rough trajectory. But you need to aim where Sol would be in 4 years and not where it is now. For in four years, the system would have shifted slightly
Besides it is entirely possible that Mankind have forgotten how to use radio...I mean, the US military forgot how to make the F-14 Tomcat (or part of it) and in a recent fiasco forgot how to make a vital component for the Trident Missile
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FTL(and by that i mean magnitudes faster then light) comm is pretty much a necessity for FS2's Command to work
Brought up something similar here:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,51218.msg1035207.html#msg1035207 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,51218.msg1035207.html#msg1035207)
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Also dont forget, Radio Signals are likely line-on-sight. If beaming from A-Centauri, You would need to know where Earth (or the Sol System) would be in four years time. And you would need precise co-ordinates, if you're off by even a fraction of a degree, you'd miss the system
From Alpha Centauri, Sol is part constellation Cassiopeia, near to Epsilon Cassiopeia. So thats a rough trajectory. But you need to aim where Sol would be in 4 years and not where it is now. For in four years, the system would have shifted slightly
Besides it is entirely possible that Mankind have forgotten how to use radio...I mean, the US military forgot how to make the F-14 Tomcat (or part of it) and in a recent fiasco forgot how to make a vital component for the Trident Missile
Yeahno. Figuring out where Earth will be in 4 years time isn't that hard. In fact, programs like Celestia, or even Orbiter IIRC, can do that without a problem. Forgetting how to make a radio...I don't think so. Unless the GTVA transmits everything via FTL or hardline, I don't think they'd forget how to make a Radio. Hell, the basic technology for Radio communication is simple enough to reverse engineer, I guess that a civilization capable of building FTL-capable starships wouldn't have a problem with that. Your comparison to the US "forgetting" how to make spare parts for the F-14 or the Trident is badly chosen. If the US wanted to, they could have just taken apart one F-14 and reverse-engineer the part in Question, but instead they chose to retire the entire line and get a modern replacement. Same goes for the Trident issue, since the US didn't just become stupider over night, they still have the capability to reverse engineer the component in question.
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Okay.
I'm hesitant to quote Star Trek but if a radio message was sent, then there are two options: They are unable to respond or they are unwilling to respond.
Also
I never said the US had become stupider. I just said that its possible to forget how to make things using two examples that spang to mind
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Way I see it, knowledge getting truly lost is really, really rare. There is always the option of reverse engineering. But, you are right, of course. The fact that we (as players) never get told about any communication whatsoever with Earth is one of the more glaring holes in FreeSpace canon.
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Maybe the communications are classified? Maybe someone did not want to make them public because they'd de-legitimate the Terran branch of the main GTVA authorities?
Or maybe the collapse of the node has triggered a series of events that somewhat compromised the stability of subspace, creating some sort of "subspace shockwave" that stops all transmissions coming to/from Sol
I'm using the second option to justify the fact that the GTVA didn't know anything about the EA(and viceversa) before the first, dramatic contacts between the two factions.
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I heard that some scientists calculated that almost all current radio transmissions after travelling 2 LY are becoming so weak that background noise (stars, galaxies, universe) make it impossible to hear anything useful.
I think that GTVA could build super large radio emmiter that could make contact between ACentauri and Earth but:
1) such emiter would fry any human trying to get close to it.
2) It would be so powerful that it would jamm any other transmission within whole system - not a good idea in populated core system :)
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I heard that some scientists calculated that almost all current radio transmissions after travelling 2 LY are becoming so weak that background noise (stars, galaxies, universe) make it impossible to hear anything useful.
I think that GTVA could build super large radio emmiter that could make contact between ACentauri and Earth but:
1) such emiter would fry any human trying to get close to it.
2) It would be so powerful that it would jamm any other transmission within whole system - not a good idea in populated core system :)
1) So you don't put Humans near it.
2) I'd guess that they'd do it anyway, because a) regaining contact with Earth, if only sporadically, would probably be a huge morale booster for the Humans, b) such a transmitter wouldn't have to run 24/7, c) We don't know if FTL communications would be affected and d) hardening com lines on the planets isn't that hard.
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Click! (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Post-Great_War_Contacts_With_Sol)
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2) It would be so powerful that it would jamm any other transmission within whole system - not a good idea in populated core system :)
Could it be any worse than this?
(http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:Q9F3HK3wmEAAfM:http://www.ursa.fi/yhd/komeetta/aurinko.jpg)
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the FTL transmision wave travels through intersystem jumpnodes :O
or...if mater can travell at FTL speeds then wouldn't transmissions too?
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Or maybe the word FTL should be used in BSG-related discussions...
Seriously, although we know of subspace jumps/communications in the FreeSpace universe using the word FTL seems a bit awkward, even if it fits.
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Why? That abbreviation has been around for, like, ever, long before BSG started.
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Or mabye the initials FTL were in use long LOOOONG before BSG and we should all be fine using them for anything Faster Than Light.
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Uhm, you're right...it might be lingual...
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Realistically speaking, the Alpha Centauri problem is most likely a plot hole that :v: just didn't think about. Within the universe, we're obviously left with educated speculation. Subspace communication is definitely out, as everything we've seen in the games suggest that intersystem communications would need to be relayed through the same node that no longer exists. The main options I see as being probable mostly overlap with those Herra mentioned:
1) No one's left in Sol to respond to any attempts at contact, due to Shivan attack through some never-discovered node or some sort of mutually-assured destruction between different factions in Sol. The former would have made for an especially-powerful kick in the nads were it used in the nonexistent sequel.
2) The GTVA has made contact with Sol, but the results of the contact are disturbing enough that the information has been classified at the highest level. Maybe some sort of ultra-militaristic fashion has risen up and seized power. Maybe the Vasudan elements left stranded in Sol have somehow managed to take over the place. Maybe the aforementioned Shivan attack is currently in-progress. Insert your own reason here.
3) The GTVA has attempted to make contact, but some sort of phenomenon existing in the space between Sol and Alpha Centauri has made their efforts futile. Perhaps some sort of interstellar medium that largely absorbs radio wavelengths is positioned smack-dab between the two star systems. Or, like Mobius suggested, maybe the Lucifer's subspace cataclysm created some sort of strange anomaly that deflects certain wavelengths of the EM spectrum.
Out of those three choices, I kind of feel like the third is the most probable reason. Three or four light-years represents a whole crap-load of empty space, and any number of factors contained within it could render getting a coherent message through next-to-impossible. It would certainly explain why the issue was never raised at all in FS2, even in a speculative sense. Still, though, that first option would make for one heck of a campaign...
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Do you want to wikify your post, Mongoose? :)
Click! (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Post-Great_War_Contacts_With_Sol)
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This seems like it needs some kind of tag, Mobius. Like one of those big non-canon ones, or a speculation one.
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Out of those three choices, I kind of feel like the third is the most probable reason. Three or four light-years represents a whole crap-load of empty space, and any number of factors contained within it could render getting a coherent message through next-to-impossible. It would certainly explain why the issue was never raised at all in FS2, even in a speculative sense. Still, though, that first option would make for one heck of a campaign...
Barnard's star is roughly 6 light years away from Earth, so it would be a feasible alternative to Alpha Centauri.
I don't think there's a good technical reason why radio transmission wouldn't work. Even with todays technology we would be able to easily send and receive narrow beam radio transmissions over a few light years distance.
I think :v: simply forgot that possibility.
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Unless the lensing effect of mini black hole got in the way?
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Barnard's star is roughly 6 light years away from Earth, so it would be a feasible alternative to Alpha Centauri.
It wasn't settled until after the Great War finished. So it's doubtful Sol would be expecting a signal from there. The best system is actually Sirius as it's not far away and the Terrans would be expecting a signal from there at least as much as Alpha Centauri.
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Ah, didn't know that Barnard's wasn't settled (is there canon mention of that somewhere?)
But I guess the GTA remnants in Sol would start listening to several star system according to the distance if nothing were to be picked up from Alpha Centauri.
Same goes for sending... it wouldn't require much effort to start piping newsfeeds and the like through big transmitters pointed at a handful of nearby settled star systems.
Actually I would have expected that the GTVA would start sending from several systems pointed at Sol.
That way, both Sol and the GTVA would get constant news from each other with a few years of lag.
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CONSPIRACY!!!
The GTVA is in contact with Sol, they just don't want to tell anyone!
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Conspiracy definitely feel like the logical choice here. Phenomenon would be the excuse from GTVA. =/
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I don't really think the conspiracy theory is valid, but I had to mention it in the Wiki article. It's politically correct, and afterall that theory is interesting... :D
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Not valid?
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Part of the NTF's propaganda would be based on the fact that the GTVA kept transmissions coming from Sol secret...
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Ah, didn't know that Barnard's wasn't settled (is there canon mention of that somewhere?)
Not exactly....
New Technology: Flail Cannon
Research and Development teams at Sol have recently completed development on a few new weapons.
A group of Terran scientists has returned from a previously unexplored system known as Laramis, and bring with them a new weapon called the Flail.
Since you can only get to Barnard's via Laramis it seems likely that Barnard's was also unexplored.
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Do you want to wikify your post, Mongoose? :)
No. :p
I think :v: simply forgot that possibility.
This is pretty much it, and the problem is that the plothole it creates is big enough to not be filled in easily. Something like that bit of technobabble Inferno is going with is probably about as good as we can be expected to do. Like you mentioned, Alpha Centauri isn't the only system within easy striking range, and even the conspiracy theory falls apart when you realize that any private entity with a few radio telescopes pointed at Sol probably would have been able to pick up any signals themselves.
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well assuming that most of the comunications are done via subspace stations or something did anyone stop to consider that :
1-because of the node crash that means no subspace FTL comm's !
2-because of the node crash perhaps some sort of disturbances have appeared that slow down or make it really really hard next to imposibble to comunicate outside SOL sistem.
3-What is the deal with all this "your mom" stuff. Its giving me the creeps.
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Is it possible they never used a intra-system communication other than through a node?
For all we know they might not even have detailed locations on exactly where to send the signal.
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I've always assumed that communications were relayed through subspace.
The real question is, actually, why Earth hasn't contacted the GTVA via conventional means. Alpha Centauri is only ~4 light years from Sol (probably not precise, but you get the idea).
Fix'd that for you. And yes it's a plot hole if any. It isn't explained how all contact to Earth can be lost - they should have started transmitting radio messages towards Earth from Alpha Centauri immediately, and gotten some kind of response eight years afterwards. Obviously it must be assumed that there hasn't been an answer, and that can be explained by quite a few ways though they fall in three main categories...
-Earth can't receive the signal. Unlikely considering the GTVA resources and technology, but still possible in case enough Shivan forces got through the node to bring Earth back to stone age or outright destroy the civilization. A case of "There's no one there to answer", if you will, although given the canon ending of Great War, I think the Shivans were eventually defeated by the First Fleet (and Alpha 1). An internal squabble developing into full scale war would also be possible...
-Earth can't transmit the signal. Similar scenarios on smaller scale could hypothetically lead to inability to transmit powerful enough signals to Alpha Centauri.
-Earth doesn't want to respond. There could be many reasons for this. Protectionist, corrupt government? Terran supremacy? Religious revolution? An external threat can easily be used by populistic politicians to get the population to sacrifice freedoms for "safety". It's possible that Earth and Sol system were overtaken by political agenda that does not see it beneficial for them to establish connections to GTVA. They might just be interested in increasing their military might so that if and when the gates to GTVA space open, they can take over and likely destroy or subdue the PVE instead of treating them as partners.
Just a few options...
You forgot the most important reason; plot tension.
Communication speed in science fiction is and always will be, dictated by plot-driven needs.
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Are you actually Setekh? Of Crystalline Array fame?
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Nooooooo, he's Knight Templar. His title is Setekh. Setekh is Setekh and no one else.
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Apparently, that's the old HLP method of classifying members according to their post count.
And yes, Setekh is Steak.
Now, back on to the topic, I was wondering if the Radar Dishes on the Colossus does wonders for communication.
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No, I bet the radar dishes are for sensors. But mainly, because they look cool. I'd be using phased-array radar if I were them.
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The future is lidar or better. No communications to earth would reach in time because the node to earth is closed permanently. Communications going from system to system need to pass through a node.
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I have always and will always believe that communication is handled through subspace. A transmission is sent from one ship, hits a comm array and gets redirected either to another comm array, a jump node, or the recipient ship.
Because subspace is needed for communication, when you disable a ship's comm system it is disabled. Mobile phones and other hand-held devices are useless since they don't have any subspace capability (unless it gets zapped by Doctor Who or something).
Communication with Sol probably has taken place but the GTVA don't want us to know about it. (conspiracy)
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Unlikely. If subspace is needed for communication, how can the GTVA communicate with Sol if the only subspace node to it has collapsed?
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Unlikely. If subspace is needed for communication, how can the GTVA communicate with Sol if the only subspace node to it has collapsed?
Radio, someone still loves you?
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I hear subspace killed the radio star.
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Communication with Sol probably has taken place but the GTVA don't want us to know about it. (conspiracy)
Maybe it's the other way around. :nervous:
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What I'm curious about is, how does the actual subspace FTL comm operate? Do subspace transmissions go to a central hub and then out to wherever, or do they just travel direct?
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What I'm curious about is, how does the actual subspace FTL comm operate? Do subspace transmissions go to a central hub and then out to wherever, or do they just travel direct?
Well, there is certainly a central hub in some systems (Beta Aquilae Comms, that random Comm station in Silent Threat), but I doubt they're crucial to actual communications. Perhaps they're needed only to boost transmission strength (evidenced by how one of the Aries transports needed to get to the Comm station to bypass the transmission jammer).
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What I'm curious about is, how does the actual subspace FTL comm operate? Do subspace transmissions go to a central hub and then out to wherever, or do they just travel direct?
I'd say both for intelligent reasons.
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What I'm curious about is, how does the actual subspace FTL comm operate? Do subspace transmissions go to a central hub and then out to wherever, or do they just travel direct?
They work however you want. As long as you can justify it in your campaign or story or whatever and it seems reasonable, people will go for it.