Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: an0n on May 06, 2009, 09:05:07 am
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From DS9, incase you're an idiot.
[14:47:01] * an0n watches In The Pale Moonlight for about the 20th time
[14:56:30] <an0n> Garaks plans and motivations are... perfect.
[14:57:44] <an0n> The basic plan is to fake a holorecording to trick Vreenak - the strongest voice in the Romulan Senate in favour of alliance with the Dominion - into believing the Dominion are going to attack the Romulan Empire, during a secret detour after he's left a meeting with Weyoun - a high-ranking Dominion official.
[14:59:09] <an0n> If it works, they win. If Vreenak discovers the recording is a fake, Garak had already planted a bomb on his shuttle so Vreenak would be dead, and in the wreckage the Romulans would find the holorecording and any imperfections would appear to be as a result of the explosion...
[14:59:57] <an0n> But even if the recording hadn't survived, Vreenak's shuttle would still have exploded in a manner implicating the Dominion, shortly after he'd left a meeting with the Dominion - which would probably have caused a war anyways...
[15:00:32] <an0n> And even if the Romulans hadn't believed the Dominion had blown up the shuttle, Vreenak would still be dead and the pro-Dominion ranks within the Romulan Empire would have lost their primary voice of leadership.
[15:00:42] <an0n> His entire plan was just perfect.
I love that entire episode. It was one of the last examples of Star Trek having a truly, genuinely good plot.
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The only good thing in Star Trek was posted by me in the other thread.
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My thought on that Episode: Starfleet idealism, meet realpolitik.
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He's definitely one of the deeper and more interesting characters in the series. While there are a lot of interesting characters, not many of them play that far outside their roles (Data always being curious and naive, Troi always being sensitive (except for the command test episode) Vulcans always being Vulcans (except for 4th season T'pol) Geordi always being blind, etc)
Garak is a great character not so much because you want to emulate him (though I really kind of do sometimes) but because you want to understand him. Discovering what makes him tick is what makes him inspiring. You don't get that inspiration with 'flatter' characters like say... Dr. Crusher, or Malcom or Riker.
The captains get some playtime with this, but to me they always come out as fairly consistent characters by the end, not really changing much from their experiences (Picard dealing with being borg, dealing with 4 lights equaling 5. Janeway dealing with what side of her bed she rolls out of and whether or not she's going to blow up a civilization today to get home a little faster, or save them instead of getting home immediately. Sisko with being a wartime captain and being space Jesus. Archer with doing nothing for the first two seasons, then fighting terrorism in the last two.) Though out of all of them, I'd argue Picard may have made the biggest shift, going from a naive, grumpy man in dealing with Q in the beginning to becoming a not-so-naive, slightly less grumpy, more optimistic old man by the end. Again, the redshift isn't huge, but it is measurable.
On the whole though, I feel like despite TNG's mantra of trying to be classic Star Trek with a modern twist by developing stories introspective of modern society, DS9 was actually the most introspective so far. Probably has to do with the war.
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Ironic that one of the most human characters in the entire series was an alien...
Still, I could say the same for Babylon 5...
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You mean Londo right?
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Ironic that one of the most human characters in the entire series was an alien...
Still, I could say the same for Babylon 5...
zomg the aliens! they're so much like us yet look so weird!
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Yup, the wole Londo/G'Kar thing was far and away what made B5 the epic it was in my opinion, without the depth they added, the show really was a kind of 'Flash Gordon with CGI' affair.
Delenn pulls the odd classic moment out of the hat, namely the classic 'One human has survived combat with the Minbari, he is behind me, you are in front of me, if you value your lives, I suggest you be somewhere else', and the Doctor and Garibaldi are both pretty strong characters, but there's no denying the sheer skill that Katsulas and Jurasik have in pulling off their relationship, their experience shines through.
Ironic that one of the most human characters in the entire series was an alien...
Still, I could say the same for Babylon 5...
zomg the aliens! they're so much like us yet look so weird!
That's part of the irony, Star Trek, the show famous for having alien cultures that were nothing more than a human culture inflated to a planetary scale, managed to produce someone as deep as Garak.
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Ironic that one of the most human characters in the entire series was an alien...
Still, I could say the same for Babylon 5...
zomg the aliens! they're so much like us yet look so weird!
That's part of the irony, Star Trek, the show famous for having alien cultures that were nothing more than a human culture inflated to a planetary scale, managed to produce someone as deep as Garak.
The third or fourth episode of TNG with the Congo planet of misogynist African fools was fun. As is the homo/androgynous/tri - sexual planet with gender issues that appears at least once or twice in every series. I'm not sure I got the message yet. I hope they add in an episode about the sanctity of Gak'Tork tri-sexual marriage into the next series, with neo-Riker either opposing it or finding himself caught in one.
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I love that episode of DS9. Its one of the best episodes they ever did....partly I think because of the established Star Trek lore. The best part about that episode is all of the rules that Sisko bends or breaks. Those rules we know...espoused time and time again and now we know where they can break and under what circumstances. Such an excellent episode. Garak is excellent in so many episodes....and he starts off as being a character that is in the background...the way he comes forward is brilliant as well.
DS9 has been on a lot recently and I've been rewatching it and I have to say that I like it allot more now than when I was younger. There are still some episodes that really bother me and I just turn it off....but there are some excellent ones as well. This is one.
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DS9 has been on allot recently
:wtf: Are you trying to circumvent the smiley filter?
But yes, that episode of DS9 was awesome. Possibly the best ever.
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garak is just as cool in person as he is on the show. i met him last time i went to a star trek convention. i was still a virgin back then.
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last time i went to a star trek convention
The real story in this post. Note how I ignored the bit about adult virginity.
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Well it depends on whether or not he was outing Andrew Robinson with that comment. :p
Getting back to the main topic, I agree that the episode is a very good one. DS9 never really had me gripped until they began the storyline with the Dominion.
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DS9 didn't really have a solid story until the Dominion. Nothing other than the whole Bajoran Jewish vs. Nazi post WWII question.
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I agree. DS9 was kinda aimless in the beginning. Once the Dominion entered the picture, things were different. A lot of the other shows were always very scientific (ex: Next Generation, parts of Voyager, Star Trek TOS), but DS9 was the most emotional, plus it was always fun seeing Odo and Quark drive each other crazy. :P
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I just realised another layer of depth to Garak in the episode.
Garak refuses to touch the data rod. And although that's pretty obvious in the scene, and a given that he wouldn't want his DNA and fingerprints all over it in general - there's a specific reason.
He did a ton of work on Romulus. It's one of the few established facts about him that he worked as a gardener in the Cardassian Embassy, and that he probably murdered a ton of Romulan officials. Yet even during the Tal Shiar / Obsidian Order operation to wipe out the Founders' homeworld, the Tal Shiar had little to no idea who he was. They tried to kill him, granted - but only because Tain told them to and where to find him.
Plus, he was able to gain access to the highly classified travel plans of a high ranking Romulan senator on a secret diplomatic mission with relative ease.
The whole episode subtly implies that he remains heavily embroiled in Romulan affairs, and has astonishing power while maintaining absolute anonymity.
Intriguing.
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Just because he's not in the Obsidian Order doesn't mean he no longer has serious ties and high-up friends in many places.
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Yeah, plus this was after the Tal Shiar had been obliterated by the Dominion, so Romulan security was probably severely diminished.
Y'know, I love the Obsidian Order in general. Like Tain.
Tain was able to formulate a massive scheme to try and wipe out the Founders, and the only reason it failed was because of flaws in Tal Shiar security. And even after the Lovok changeling had meshed the two operations together and become a closer, personal associate of Tain, Tain was still able to develop the prototype anti-shapeshifting device without Lovok having any goddamn idea.
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DS9 has been on allot recently
:wtf: Are you trying to circumvent the smiley filter?
Damn....I keep doing that. I get my allot and a lot screwed up far too often. Its one of those brain pathways I have to train myself from using. I didn't used to do it...
Anyways....
Star Trek.
I'm going to see the new movie tonight....looking forward to it!
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an0n, you're still alive?
I thought you got sent to jail and murdered after that whole incident with the teapot and the elephant.
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Nah, the jury decided that the elephant enjoyed it too much.
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:bump:
damn. yeah, space here is airing the war today, actually watching it now...really like the dominion part of DS9 until sisko's spacejesus crap at the very end.
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DS9 is my least fave series, something about being stuck in a spacestation docu-soap (early series at least) just didn't grab me.. Like Kara said Dominion war ftw..
Also the best episode was the one with Kirk, Tribbles and old Klingons in :nod:
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DS9 is my least fave series, something about being stuck in a spacestation docu-soap (early series at least) just didn't grab me.. Like Kara said Dominion war ftw..
Also the best episode was the one with Kirk, Tribbles and old Klingons in :nod:
awwwwwww
yeaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh
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One of Garak's best moments was the first time he had lunch with Bashir. While Siddig blathered on, Robinson kept his eyes moving around, focusing on everything except the doctor. Made you wonder what he saw.
If you like Garak, it's worth reading A Stitch in Time. It's written by Andrew Robinson, and gives you a very clear idea of just how much he put into developing the character.
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damn, space is starting the series again, guess i'll just watch top gear in the meantime at 5:00