Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: ThesaurusRex on May 21, 2009, 01:54:33 am
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I don't know why you guys are bringing up viruses when talking about living things. A virus is not alive since it doesn't individually reproduce. Also some living things don't have motivations since they are incapable of thought. Its true that they may react to stimuli but this reaction may be a chemical or electrical process independent of thought. Sorry to be picky but microbiology is an area of interest for me.
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A virus is like a protein packet and is much simpler than a bacteria, which is simpler than a single cell. A virus is probably composed of only about 10,000 strans of DNA. It is organic matter (meaning made of mostly carbon and water, like the carbohydrates that make up the helix of DNA, but carbohydratas only have carbon and hydrogen without the oxygen). Viruses can absorb energy and reproduce, so it must be life if defining life by its composition and action, but the simplest form that I know of.
I learn most of this stuff on my own and not in school. I don't go to school anymore and college ended long ago for me, but I never learned any biology in college and only learned a little in high school. You can learn a lot by reading online, watching satellite, and asking questions to certain people if you have a thirst for knowledge.
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A virus is like a protein packet and is much simpler than a bacteria, which is simpler than a single cell. A virus is probably composed of only about 10,000 strains of DNA. It is organic matter and it can absorb energy and reproduce, so it must be life if defining life by its composition and action, but the simplest form that I know of.
I dread these semantics debates and this goes way off topic. My apologies to those peoples who feel that this post is a violation of the rules. Any moderator should feel free to remove this post if they wish.
To begin, most biologist believe that life begins on the cellular level. The following list was taken from http://assets.cambridge.org/97805216/80547/excerpt/9780521680547_excerpt.pdf (http://assets.cambridge.org/97805216/80547/excerpt/9780521680547_excerpt.pdf) and edited for length.
1. Nutrition - "Living things take in materials from their surroundings that they use for growth or to provide energy."
2. Respiration - "Respiration is the release of energy from food substances in all living cells."
3. Movement - "All living things move."
4. Excretion - "All living things excrete. As a result of the many chemical reactions occurring in cells, they have to get rid of waste products which might poison the cells."
5. Growth - "Growth is seen in all living things. It involves using food to produce new cells."
6. Reproduction - "All living organisms have the ability to produce offspring."
7. Sensitivity - "All living things are able to sense and respond to stimuli around them such as light, temperature, water, gravity and chemical substances."
We can see from this list that a virus fails every requirement on this list. This will be my last post on the meaning of life but in your previous post there are several factual errors.
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I dread these semantics debates and this goes way off topic. My apologies to those peoples who feel that this post is a violation of the rules. Any moderator should feel free to remove this post if they wish.
What are you talking about? You mean my post? I was just replying to yours. What do you mean violation of rules? I hope you are talking about your post prior to mine since you started it. Also, you continued going off topic with your following paragraph? :confused: You quoted my post and said "this" post. That sounds like you are referring to mine and saying it should be removed?
Edit: Or are you talking about the paragraph you made after you said that? Now I'm pretty sure you were talking about the post you were typing also by saying "my apologies". However, you should have said "my following post". Actually, to avoid confusion, you should have said those few sentences at the end of your post instead of the first paragraph after quoting me. The order in which you write things is important in language.
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Maybe I should have made it more obvious that the campaign currently in my mod is not really mine (since I haven't even started mine), but rather a port of another campaign by somebody else... :nervous:
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Edit: Or are you talking about the paragraph you made after you said that. You should say "my following post". Actually, to avoid confusion, you should have said those few sentences at the end of your post instead of the first paragragh after quoting me. The order in which you write things is important in langauge.
Yes, sorry about that. I actually was writing a different sentence when I quoted you. But then I discarded what I had previously typed and did not pay attention to the quote for some reason. So just to clarify, I would like the moderator to use his or her discretion when judging the contents of my post. Also, I will keep in mind to proof read my posts before I submit them to avoid any confusion in the future.
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Don't worry; on HLP, as liberal as it is, people can get away with most posts, and in my opinion, get away with too much here, and mods don't seem to ever delete them. They just monkey someone or close a topic, but monkeying is rare too. You definitely won't have your post removed and I see nothing wrong with your post from any point of view.
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Personally, i enjoy when threads are derailed and discuss different things. I enjoy it on some odd level. "I for one Thank our robot overlords for granting us this opportunity!" Or something along those levels. Are Trees alive then? i dont believe that they can move? or any plant life for that matter.
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For plant movement, look up phototropism or gravitropism.
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I don't know why you guys are bringing up viruses when talking about living things. A virus is not alive since it doesn't individually reproduce. Also some living things don't have motivations since they are incapable of thought. Its true that they may react to stimuli but this reaction may be a chemical or electrical process independent of thought. Sorry to be picky but microbiology is an area of interest for me.
You don't individually reproduce either, and your thoughts are just chemical and electrical processes.
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They are chemical and electrical processes but I wouldn't say "just". It is "just" what we can observe. It doesn't mean that it's all there is. I think it is far too complex for it to be as simple as that.
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There's nothing simple about the electrical and chemical processes going on, so you're correct in that...but, in the end, they're just electrical and chemical processes.
We're all made of stardust, and that stardust is atoms, and there's nothing more to it. Our much-vaunted thoughts are more sophisticated than those of virii, since we can perform operations they're fundamentally incapable of, but in the end it's not really much different.
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Of course it doesn't explain consciousness and awareness or experiences of what people had even when they had flat-line brain functions (clinically-dead) and them accurately telling the doctors everything their out of body form was seeing the doctors doing when operating on them, even when dead and eyes covered completely. It is proven that just because we can't see something doesn't mean it's not there. We find new things all the time and discover new objects and materials. So much can be there that we can't see. I could say the same and say that since we can't detect or see alternate dimensions, it means they are not there. So it doesn't make sense for people to say there is no soul just because most people haven't seen them but yet we can't see other dimensions but people say they exist. That is contradictory. Also, if people encounter ghosts and all see the same thing at the same time, it can't be a hallucination because if people had hallucinations at the same time, their minds would all make up different things, not the same exact image.
Living things could have intelligence like a machine but not be aware, and there is more than stardust (there is energy, theorized dark matter and dark energy, anti-matter, and other unknown material out there) but I best not get any further into this argument. It will go too far off topic and cause one of those spiritual debates.
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Remember, the Shivans aren't a disease, they are a symptom ;)
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I don't know why you guys are bringing up viruses when talking about living things. A virus is not alive since it doesn't individually reproduce. Also some living things don't have motivations since they are incapable of thought. Its true that they may react to stimuli but this reaction may be a chemical or electrical process independent of thought. Sorry to be picky but microbiology is an area of interest for me.
You don't individually reproduce either, and your thoughts are just chemical and electrical processes.
I would like to being by pointing out that humans also do use chemical and electrical processes. However the key phrase in my initial post was "process independent of thought" when I referred to some other living things.
By individual reproduction, I was referring to the fact that humans reproduce by releasing offspring directly from the existing organism. The reproduction of a virus is completely different since they use a host cell to make body parts and then to assemble the parts together for dispersal. It is true that human thoughts are just chemical reactions, but the difference is that our body is able to control these reactions. Some reactions may be suppressed by our brain or other parts of our nervous system, also through chemical and electrical processes. The difference is that we have these abilities why certain organism do not.
For example, humans can endure slight discomfort because they can suppress some signals and propagate others. If a man hungry man was presented with food his initial reaction would be to consume the food. However, he could force himself not to eat and he eventually will pass out and dies. He could also go against his reaction, to conserve energy and eat, by going on a jog which would expend more energy and speed up his death. Compare this to a bacteria that is lacking in necessary nutrients. When this deprived cell is exposed to the necessary nutrients it will react to this change by beginning to consume the nutrients until it reaches some kind of concentration equilibrium with the outside environment. This bacteria cannot control it's intake of this nutrient. This means that if we were to convert the nutrients entering the bacteria into some kind of substance that could not exit the bacteria. Then it would continue to take in nutrients provided to it since it would never reach the concentration equilibrium. Eventually, the bacteria would swell up from the excess substance and burst.
In these two examples, the both organism died in the end. However, their deaths were different in terms of how they died. In one case the organism died from suppression of reaction because it was able to think, and in the other example, the organism died from being unable to suppress a reaction. So human, along with blah... blah... blah..., exhibit these differences from some other organisms.
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So, what you're trying to say is, humans are special because they can use electrical and chemical signals to suppress and modify electrical and chemical signals?
I don't think that's any different from what I said, except for your assertion that humans are special, which they pretty clearly aren't. We use the same mechanics as everybody else, our wiring is just more complex.
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Oddly enough, as a kind of aside, it's been proved that Zebra Fish, of all things, have a more effective Motor-Neuron repair system than Humans, and may hold the secret of treating Motor Neuron Disease.
Certain animals excel at certain things, humans have very complex wiring in some ways, but also have very simplistic wiring in others when compared to other members of the animal kingdom :)
Octopii are an excellent example of this btw, they have an unbelievable complex neurological setup.
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Actually we are unique from every other life form since we can resist almost all our instincts. We can reprogram our biological clock at will. No other organism can just all of a sudden choose to reprogram their biological clocks or resist mating. It isn't known how humans can do things like that and manipulate our own reactions with a thought like we can. I might just be possessing my body and will shed my shell when it dies and my body is no longer of use. I can even hold in my coughing and hickups if I focus hard enough :D Mind over matter. Actually, resisting instincts and having a high degree of body control is part of someone having a strong mind, and many people can do that to a certain degree. No other species can do that like us.
If humans aren't special, then why protect them and why have individualism? That contradicts people saying they are not special. Why not let the human race die if you think they are not special? Why even care about the environment or our future? Those actions contradict the words of those who say we are not special.
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You are wrong. Many species have this ability.
I think I'm gonna split this.
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Yes our wiring is more complex and that's what separates us from other living organisms. A key ability that humans have over many other organisms is our advance cognitive abilities. These cognitive abilities are derived from the complexity of our brains. It is true that when everything is broken down to it's the chemical and electrical signals are essentially what makes us do the things that we do, unless you prescribe to the belief in a soul and such. Nevertheless, human brains are different from other organism's brains in terms of what they allow humans to do.
For example, take a conscious frog and place it in cold water. Now place that cold water over a stove and apply heat to it to boil the water. The frog in the water will not react since its brain will not detect the gradual change. Now take a conscious human and try the same experiment. The person in the water will eventually leave if he or she is able and allowed to leave. If the chemical and electrical processes of the frog brain and human brain were compared the two brains would appear to be very similar. However, we can see that the complexity of the human brain does make a difference.
Warning: The experiment listed on this post has been done before, so I would advise that no one try it.
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Good Call.
As far as resisting the mating urge, practically every animal that works in a pack has to resist its own biological clock, only Alpha Males get to mate, and if another animal wants to mate, it either has to take down the Alpha, thus becoming him, or live with it :)
As for protecting Humans, well, I think that's something to do with self-interest ;)
There's strong evidence that Elephants and Great Apes mourn their dead, and Female Elephants have been known to hunt down Rhinos that attack the herd long after they have ceased to be a threat, a concept of revenge, perhaps?
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Don't worry; on HLP, as liberal as it is, people can get away with most posts, and in my opinion, get away with too much here, and mods don't seem to ever delete them. They just monkey someone or close a topic, but monkeying is rare too. You definitely won't have your post removed and I see nothing wrong with your post from any point of view.
I'd be very careful about asking the admins to get tougher if I were you.
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Humans are special to ME because I'm human. I'm pretty sure I'd put the life of a human over that of any other animal. It all depends on your point of view. :)
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Someone needs to move my last post here since I began to reply before the thread was split and posted it after it was.
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Humans aren't special. We're different, but then all species are different.
This wouldn't be a debate if we weren't so far removed from other animals taxodermically. Like, if there were other species within our genus.
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Someone needs to move my last post here since I began to reply before the thread was split and posted it after it was.
Copy and Paste, and I'll delete the original :)
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I got it, it's in on the last page via a merge. Good practice, if nothing else.
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Thank you.
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Yes our wiring is more complex and that's what separates us from other living organisms. A key ability that humans have over many other organisms is our advance cognitive abilities. These cognitive abilities are derived from the complexity of our brains. It is true that when everything is broken down to it's the chemical and electrical signals are essentially what makes us do the things that we do, unless you prescribe to the belief in a soul and such. Nevertheless, human brains are different from other organism's brains in terms of what they allow humans to do.
For example, take a conscious frog and place it in cold water. Now place that cold water over a stove and apply heat to it to boil the water. The frog in the water will not react since its brain will not detect the gradual change. Now take a conscious human and try the same experiment. The person in the water will eventually leave if he or she is able and allowed to leave. If the chemical and electrical processes of the frog brain and human brain were compared the two brains would appear to be very similar. However, we can see that the complexity of the human brain does make a difference.
Warning: The experiment listed on this post has been done before, so I would advise that no one try it.
These are arguably sensory differences here. But I agree with the fundamental point as long as you realize humans aren't particularly special - we (probably) can't do anything other animals are incapable of. We're just a lot better at a lot of cognitive tasks.
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Yeah that's true. We just got the luck of the draw.
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Humans aren't special. We're different, but then all species are different.
This wouldn't be a debate if we weren't so far removed from other animals taxodermically. Like, if there were other species within our genus.
If other species within our genus did exist right now everything would be so ****ing weird. Cultural problems would go beyond way beyond racism and a lot of other things would be radically different.
Whoops. :shaking: Double post. Sorry people.
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Humans aren't special. We're different, but then all species are different.
This wouldn't be a debate if we weren't so far removed from other animals taxodermically. Like, if there were other species within our genus.
If other species within our genus did exist right now everything would be so ****ing weird. Cultural problems would go beyond way beyond racism and a lot of other things would be radically different.
Whoops. :shaking: Double post. Sorry people.
Yeah, I thought of that. But, if you think about it, we slowly come to find that different != better/worse. So I figure, eventually, we would be able to say, well, we're bigger, but they're faster, etc.
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The main difference with humanity is that, rather than adapt to the environment, we have adapted the Environment to us, however, we are not alone in that respect either, we've just done it on a far vaster scale than any other creature that builds.
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Yeah, I thought of that. But, if you think about it, we slowly come to find that different != better/worse. So I figure, eventually, we would be able to say, well, we're bigger, but they're faster, etc.
Yeah that's true it could be better or worse right now. But I feel it would probably be like, you're talking all of my food...*bang*...someone's dead. Competition between similar species usually doesn't end well for one of them.
The main difference with humanity is that, rather than adapt to the environment, we have adapted the Environment to us, however, we are not alone in that respect either, we've just done it on a far vaster scale than any other creature that builds.
There is a theory that we can thank our hands for that. If an octopus had hands then there's no telling what they could accomplish, um...they would also have to have a bunch of modifications to live on land. But if they were land creatures and did have hands. Well, then...then we are in deep s**t.
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Depends on the species involved...
You know, if you think about it, anything "manmade" or anything humans do really is "natural." After all, many other animals learn to use tools from older relatives and such. Ours are just very, very complex. And pervasive.
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Don't worry; on HLP, as liberal as it is, people can get away with most posts, and in my opinion, get away with too much here, and mods don't seem to ever delete them. They just monkey someone or close a topic, but monkeying is rare too. You definitely won't have your post removed and I see nothing wrong with your post from any point of view.
I'd be very careful about asking the admins to get tougher if I were you.
Not too worried since I don't use bad language, threaten, sexually harrass (never flirtatious, never talk about bodies of people or talk about wanting to do things with them in my posts, etc), or spam (I try to make detailed intelligent posts and not one liners), but others have went much further than me in many ways.
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If you did any of those things, no one would really notice beyond the awkward wording and miserable grammar/spelling...
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I have great grammar and spelling. I strive of that, but I should get back on topic now.
I think humans are special depending on their abilities and strengths and whether or not they try to improve themselves intellectually and strength-wise and whether or not they try to work harder vs someone who expects someone to do everything for them. But humans have more importance to those who know them personally and like them (sentimental value).
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Don't get this started again, it's the face-offs between you two that were the cause of so much grief last time :P
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I have great grammar and spelling. I strive of that, but I should get back on topic now.
I think humans are special depending on their abilities and strengths and whether or not they try to improve themselves intellectually and strength-wise and whether or not they try to work harder vs someone who expects someone to do everything for them. But humans have more importance to those who know them personally and like them (sentimental value).
So, you're saying that humans are special because there are humans who think that humans are special?
In a strict biological sense, the only thing that makes us special (or rather, different) is not our capability to change our environment to suit our needs per se, but the sheer scale on which we do it. Which, arguably, stems from our capability to create abstract concepts, and then communicate them to others.
All of the above is my opinion, and not in the least reliable, or even reliably backed up, of course.
So, are we special? Until and unless it is demonstrated that other organisms posess similar characteristics, I'd say tentatively yes.
Side note: Why has noone mentioned this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial) yet?
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Abstract concepts such as Art are certainly part of the factor that helps us develop to where we are to day, as Cohen and Stewart defined it, many species have intelligence of some kind, but only humanity has developed extelligence to our knowledge, the ability to store thoughts and ideas in such a way that the owner of those concepts does not need to be alive for them to be passed on.
Humans are special, but then, so are Octopii, Dolphins, Elephants and pretty much every animal on the planet in some way.
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Actually I do consider humans to be special. We're an interesting bunch from our complex social interactions to our creative and constructive capabilities (look at a map and think about it for a moment - all of those cities and roads). Even our destructive capabilities are interesting because we pit one set of instincts against another set of instincts. Most of all we do things for pleasure...most markedly are things like eating, sex, and violence (disturbing as that might be).
What we don't often appreciate is how our world actually has evolved the worlds of other species as well. Rats, mice, cats, and dogs all come to mind. House mice are apparently (I was reading) quite different from a field mouse. House mice have followed humans across the planet...they depend on our activities for their activities. Domesticated animals that depend on us is another interesting relationship. None of these are unique on their own (examples for all can be found)....but I think its the collection of everything that makes us interesting.
So yes....an interesting and special bunch we are.
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Well, in truth symbiotic relationships are rife throughout nature, from the famous ant/greenfly relationship to the fish that clean sharks teeth for them, though we are, admittedly, the first race to consciously alter another species to suit our purpose, but that's once more down to the fact we have the ability to pass ideas through several generations.
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I feel special.
(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1944/majoris.gif)
No, wait, I don't.
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I feel special.
(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1944/majoris.gif)
No, wait, I don't.
How recently was that made? I noticed that Pluto wasn't on the list.
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Pluto was probably too small to count even if it was still considered a planet, it's not much bigger than the moon.
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If by "special" you mean really, really different from all the other animals, then yeah, we are.
I assumed "special" to mean somehow above other animals. (Typically in a religious sense... "We have souls, they don't. And therefore we have the right to do with them as we will.")
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So you don't think animals have souls?
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I think every living thing has a soul. :]
But that's neither here nor there.
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Your sig on the other hand, is way up the ****ed up alley.
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I feel special.
(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1944/majoris.gif)
No, wait, I don't.
How recently was that made? I noticed that Pluto wasn't on the list.
How ironic that yesterday or early this morning, I was watching youtube videos once again of size scales comparing stars, like here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpUWNYgVEfk&feature=related and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdkEbfctk8c&NR=1. Personally I like the music of both. This one is great: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BjHvwSvpOw and this one is the best, in my opinion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRCGQOvd8Wo&feature=related
Humans are advanced in every cognitive way. Not only do we have great memory and creativity, but we have complex emotions. No other creature can fall in love in the sense that we do or lack/have confidence in the sense that we think about it, or think about things like honesty or morals. We are also the most conscious and aware, have intelligence socially, have complex communication abilities, and the ability to think very far into the future or into the past before we were born, unlike animals. We also have the ability to go against instincts, in most cases, and make advanced on the spot decisions as if we are more than just a body. I believe that the more complex the life form is when it comes to consciousness and cognitive abilities, the more likely it has a soul.
In a bodily sense, we are quite special and adaptable when it comes to being warm blooded, which allows us to live anywhere in the world, are omnivores, have hands (manipulators), have a complex four chambered heart which makes seperation of oxidated and non-oxidated blood more efficient, which can increase over all stamina, and we have numbers. Though being too numerous could also make each individual seem less special. We also have the best eyes when it comes to features and seeing colors detailed vision. We have many optical features combined, like seeing extreme color and detail, ability to focus close up or far away, seeing 3D, and peripheral vision all in one, as well as focusing in the dark to a certain extent. Most animals can't focus their eyes to see up close and far away like we can, I think. Eagles are stuck seeing telescopically, for example, according to what I heard. We can also change the shape of our lips and faces to make a wide range of facial movements and produce a wide range of sounds that other animals can't, therefore imitating animal sounds and sometimes animal calls.
Anything that an animal can do that we can't, we can give ourselves the ability to do by creating devices to do that or augment our abilities or protect us, thus also allowing us to visit certain places that would otherwise be impossible to go to. We can create certain devices like infrared goggles, protective clothing that acts like a strong hide or better, submarines, etc.
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I love how humans claim to be "above" animals, and yet we know absolutely goddamn nothing about the inner workings of the universe. If someone is clinically dead for a short period of time, that doesn't mean its impossible for them to receive and process input through brain cells that are still halfway functional. We are making the incredibly stupid association with setting our own limits on reality and then declaring that when something violates our own definition of reasonable it must have religious significance! Doesn't anyone realize how unbelievably STUPID we're being?!
When we're not being stupid dumbf-cks who can't get over their own pathetic religious instincts, maybe we can say we're better then animals. So far, however, we're simply really smart monkeys who are succeeding in becoming the most catastrophic environmental disaster ever unleashed on Earth.
We have a lot of sh!t to fix.
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I love how humans claim to be "above" animals, and yet we know absolutely goddamn nothing about the inner workings of the universe. If someone is clinically dead for a short period of time, that doesn't mean its impossible for them to receive and process input through brain cells that are still halfway functional. We are making the incredibly stupid association with setting our own limits on reality and then declaring that when something violates our own definition of reasonable it must have religious significance! Doesn't anyone realize how unbelievably STUPID we're being?!
When we're not being stupid dumbf-cks who can't get over their own pathetic religious instincts, maybe we can say we're better then animals. So far, however, we're simply really smart monkeys who are succeeding in becoming the most catastrophic environmental disaster ever unleashed on Earth.
We have a lot of sh!t to fix.
I am talking about those who actually try to be intelligent and have decency, however. The ones who like to learn and improve their knowledge, strength in the mind and emotional control, physical health, and abilities; not the ones who have babe/jock syndrome.
And about your clinically dead comment: These people also experience a higher than normal consciousness as well as accurately said what was happening in the operating room while experiencing the OBE, among other things, as well as a family member who was sleeping at the time seeing the temporarily dead person in their dream and that person telling the family member to come down to the OR or something. If you are clinically dead, you wouldn't experience a higher than normal awareness; it would be far below normal. It also doesn't explain ghosts and sometimes many people being in the room witnessing them at the same time (the people all seeing the same things and hearing the same sounds at the same time, making them not hallucinations and in some cases not pranks).
If you don't want to believe you have a soul and will do whatever you can to try and think it is something else and refuse to think it is possible that it is a soul, then I guess you have personal reasons and don't want to because you hope there is no after life and don't want to exist forever.
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High Max: got any real sources to scientifically proven OBEs?
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We're all Terrans, lets form the GTA.
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This for now: http://www.discoverychannel.co.uk/paranormal/parapsychology/obe/index.shtml. But I must look harder.
Edit: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1071693/posts
But people can stick with this: http://paranormal.about.com/od/lifeafterdeath/a/evol-afterlife.htm and decide for themselves.
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No proof in either of those. Like all paranormal stuff, it's mostly hearsay and conjecturing.
I think that humans are not "above" other animals, or really, any living thing, because we all got to where we are the same way. We all evolved from primordial goop, so... I mean, yeah.
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I refuse to believe in an afterlife because i refuse to BELIEVE in anything totally devoid of logic. I'm not the one whose going to waste hours of my precious time alive trying to appease some stupid deity in order to secure my place in an afterlife that doesn't exist. I'm not going to dedicate my entire life to annoying other people with my religion and expect to be rewarded for it when I'm dead. We get one chance. This isn't about what I want or what I don't want, its about whats real and whats not real. If you want to spend your life in a delusion specifically designed by a lobe of your brain to overcome logic and reason because you can't deal with reality, then fine.
This is exactly what I'm talking about - you are making the idiotic, if not borderline retarded, conclusion that because we can't explain something with our limited knowledge of the universe it is therefore proof that some stupid book written by a bunch of psychotics on LSD is true and we should totally worship it.
IF WE DONT UNDERSTAND SOMETHING, IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING.
But hey, you aren't going to listen, because you've already demonstrated that you're so totally absorbed in your own religious insanity that you must reassure yourself that everything you believed has to be true or the consequences to your psyche will be so severe it would possibly drive you insane. Fine. I don't give a ****. I've learned not to give a **** about any of this because its the equivalent of arguing with a kindergartner about politics.
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Ah poor baby got angry. You won't listen either and I keep an open "no one knows for sure" train of thought unlike you. Also, for your info, I'm not religious and I must have hit a nerve since the truth on why you refuse to believe made you angry. Poor baby can't control his anger. :D
This is also an interesting story: http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa082800a.htm for all who are interested.
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High Max, you need to avoid ad hominem attacks or you'll be monkeyed.
And you keep referring to near-death experiences as something mysterious, but we know what causes them and we can induce them in people who aren't anywhere near death.
Nothing mystical there.
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High Max, you need to avoid ad hominem attacks or you'll be monkeyed.
I was only being that way because he was insulting me first, but I will let it go. Calling me kindergarden and borderline retarded over a disagreement is flaming me. But I will let it go and leave the debate now to not escalate it.
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So does the Sun still revolve around the Earth? No. We thought it did before, but now we've learned that it isn't true. What's to say that we can't explain the unexplainable now?
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Seriously, High Max, can you enter into a discussion WITHOUT namecalling? We're all adults here (except Hades, who is 12). He didn't actually call you any names. He called your conclusion stupid, and he insulted your intelligence. It's not exactly right either, but it's blackhole. You're the one who constantly claims to be mature, rational, etc.
I believe in souls, afterlife, etc, but I'm not religious. There's such a huge difference. I don't disregard logic where it can be found. When I believe something without any proof it's more of my way of making sense of my world, rather than trying to... iunno... do whatever it is religious people do. XP
So does the Sun still revolve around the Earth? No. We thought it did before, but now we've learned that it isn't true. What's to say that we can't explain the unexplainable now?
Ya, srsly. If we discover something that contradicts what I think, then I go like "oh, huh, that's interesting." That doesn't usually happen, though, because I don't believe random crap like "intelligent design" or zombies.
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I also am not religious but I like to believe in an afterlife. Does that make it idiotic? No. But when someone refers to me as border-line retarded, I take great offense to that for reasons stated a few weeks ago. Also assuming I'm religious just because of certain morals I have. I just mix certain beliefs and religious possibilities with science. But I do love to learn a lot about science. I just know that if I continue to post in this topic, it might lead to escalation and stress for me and might get me monkeyed, and it would be adult of me to try not to escalate it anymore and draw the line here.
I was honestly reacting from taking offense, but I did it without bad words or using the words "idiotic, delusional, kindergartner, and borderline retarded" in my post. Also, I wasn't aware of his age. I assumed he was in his 20's and forget what his age was since I last checked his profile. I can handle people calling me names, but basically saying I'm stupid or retarded using those kinds of words really angers me because it is the same as calling me stupid indirectly and also because of my past experiences and diagnoses, but I will try and let it go now. But I felt myself losing it that time and my heart started to race, though I didn't show it too much in my post.
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Lol, didn't show it too much in your post? Are you kidding?
You've called me various derogatory things as well. Also, Blackhole isn't 12, Hades is. I was making a joke that Hades prolly won't even see. :P
You have religious-type morals. In that they have little basis and are all puritanical and stuff. That you are religious is a very logical conclusion.
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I'm laughing so hard right now. I can't believe iamzack is coming to my defense :lol: (I'm 18, not 20, or 12)
I apologize for insulting your intelligence, but as you have so politely observed, I'm getting a little pissed off. Why am I getting a little pissed off? Well one reason being that I'm always pissed off, but the more relevant issue here is that you people claim to be rational and mature and then prove yourselves to be a complete and utter hypocrites. I don't bother calling myself mature because I view "acting mature" as just another way for people to assert themselves as better then someone else over ridiculously hollow ideals. Seriously, I'm more polite then you, therefore I'm a better person? What the hell does that have to do with anything? Congratulations, you have better social skills then me. I don't really give a crap, so if you're going to go calling me a baby and then say you're trying to be mature, just give up with the whole mature thing because neither of us are doing a particularly good job of it.
Either way, I don't care if you like science. You still hold ideals that are illogical, and I'm telling you that they are illogical and the only evidence you have for them is things that are unexplainable, which isn't evidence for anything! I mean, I believed that stuff when I was NINE. Are you NINE, High Max? Considering you just gave us a lecture on maturity, I think not, so perhaps we can avoid using meaningless crap as evidence to support your hypothesis?
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And, hey, while we're at it, can we actually get back on topic? I'm content to lurk on this one, but at least keep it interesting, not stupid.
EDIT: Damn tupos typos.
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And, hey, while we're at it, can we actually get back on topic? I'm content to lurk on this one, but at least keep in interesting, not stupid.
I'm trying! :P
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I don't know about you guys, but I feel pretty special.
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Me too!
We can unlock this if the more experienced moderators decide a lock is unwarranted, but I think it's gone a bit far into personal territory.
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I agree with the lock but raise you a week off for High Max. He's dragged far too many topics off course by posting a rambling rant about how he's mature and everyone else is immoral to keep getting away with it.
Plus he said yesterday on this very thread that he wanted the admins to be tougher. :p
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Deleting responses makes it much harder to follow a thread and can result in people drawing the idea that they were being responded to instead of the person whose message was deleted. It's not something to be undertaken lightly and it draws accusations of censorship whenever an admin does it. We also feel that everyone should be able to whatever a person did that was stupid enough to get a thread closed/themselves monkeyed.
So the posts deleted by High Max after he was monkeyed have been restored. If they are deleted again the length of the monkeying will be doubled.