Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: ThesaurusRex on May 21, 2009, 06:34:10 pm
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(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Fsnodemap.jpg)
I remember a while back I wanted to update the FS node map so I calculated each system's distance from our sun, well, for the systems that do exists. Anyways, after I noticed that I got some really weird numbers. I then graphed each point on a 3d model, this however left me more confused than before. There was no orientation that would give me the same view as presented on this node map. Just as an example Deneb is 1400 light-years away from the sun while Sirius and Vega are 8.6 light-years and 25.3 light-years away from the sun respectively. But on this node map they look like they are both 8 to 10 light years away from each other. Before anyone asks if I considered a different orientation I have to remind them that I already did. Anyways, has anyone ever noticed the spatial inaccuracy of this node map before?
I have looked at some other node maps on HL but they seem to be based off this old one.
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My (in-universe) guess is that, since the actual distances involved do not matter when using nodes, whoever made that map didn't bother trying to represent the actual real-life layout of the systems.
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My question is, where do those 4 off-the-sides paths go? Does Altair connect to Mirfak? Does Regulus connect to Adhara?
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We had this huge debate about this once and concluded the lengths of the bars between systems do not represent real-world distances.
Trashman argued that they did, and that all the star systems had been renamed. That's Trashman for ya.
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Isn't that map a 2d "screenshot" of a 3d map?
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It still doesn't work out.
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If this were just a map that represents connections rather than actual distances then it is very convoluted. Also from certain angles there would be systems in aligned as shown in the map, but then there would be other systems that seem reversed in position with the others leaving them in the wrong location.
Blue Lion, could you please post up your 3d map? I discarded mine and I don't care to remake it. Thanks.
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You're right, it is convoluted. Still, it does allow for all the "Shivan" systems to be neatly tucked away in the north-eastern corner. Maybe the length of the connection == travel time?
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There may be one logical explanation, this map was accurate in 2335 or 2367. But what are these years but arbitrary numbers? Perhaps they are not denoted by Anno Domini and don't go by the Julian or Gregorian calendars. Then these years could actually be a million years in the future.
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No.
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No.
Good. I hoped that wouldn't be the case. But now we're back to square one.
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Why is he always against the grain? (TrashMan)
I think that the off-the-map lines go to unexplored systems.
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You're right, it is convoluted. Still, it does allow for all the "Shivan" systems to be neatly tucked away in the north-eastern corner. Maybe the length of the connection == travel time?
Or, maybe the map was made by a video game company that didn't care about the distances because it looked nice!
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You're right, it is convoluted. Still, it does allow for all the "Shivan" systems to be neatly tucked away in the north-eastern corner. Maybe the length of the connection == travel time?
Or, maybe the map was made by a video game company that didn't care about the distances because it looked nice!
Bingo. That's probably the case. Maybe someone will be compelled to make a non-canon correction to the node map someday.
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Well, subspace has a different "geography" than normal space. If you put the distances realistically, it'd look really bad.
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Droid's got it. Physical distance is meaningless in comparison to extradimensional weirdness distance, because that's how you travel.
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There's a book I read once that had something like this issue in it. Some navy or other was using reaction drives to go to other stars, and completely ignoring jump nodes (called wormholes :rolleyes:). It played merry hell with everyone until someone actually made a map based on real-space distances and locations.
All the map colors ended up twisted together like some preschooler's crayon drawing. I would conjecture that the map presented is in no way actually to scale. I wouldn't even be surprised if the stars aren't arranged in that order in realspace.
The book is Exodus, by Steve White and Shirley Meyer, in case anyone wanted to know.
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ITS A GAME.Really, why is everyone so surprised when they find glaring inconsistences in game universes? Games are designed to be fun and believable. Humans will believe anything that looks fine even if its grossly inaccurate, because most people don't really care.
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Why do you get surprised when we argue about it?
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You're not shocked that game designers fudged the numbers a bit but ARE shocked when gamers try to decipher it?
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I thought it's already been decided that the distances in between the systems in that map were no way in any proportion to how far they were from each other in real life...
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I think this map might have been made to look clear ,because the distances doesen't really matter ,they positioned the systems in layout that allows easy orientation ,for example Shivan systems are all in one corner ,just because you may want to find a Shivan system and with this layout you don't need to worry about looking over entire sheet and checking each red globe ,but you only need to check one corner ,which is much faster.
Also ,you can display this corner on tactical screen in briefing room ,so all pilots would be able to read the system names and clearly see briefing icons,unlike the situation in which you have to show entire map ,and Shivan movement from one of their systems to another ,ending up with icons that are so small ,so pilots cannot see difference between convoy and battle fleet.
Not to mention the connections on relistically layouted map would look like spider's web ,being difficult to tell which one is which.
On a side note ,has anyone ever made a nodemap with all non-canon systems
(at least from most popular campaigns).
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Although it is possible to contract the distances but still show a semi-realistic layout of the systems, like the London Underground map.
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If you want something truly diagrammatic, I made this. I think Volition's is more aesthetically pleasing though.
(http://freespaceport.googlepages.com/gridnodes.png)
I have several variants showing the factions' locations during the wars, too, if you'd like them.
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I like that one better. It gives more of a strategic sense of what systems can allow access to what other systems.
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I see different colors for systems yet no systems of those colors :drevil:
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I think Galemp's map would be a good civilian/navigation version, it shows what could easily be described as trade routs along the strait lines, where as the original makes for a good cinematic representation for the gamer and shows the battle lines.
The problem with any star map is scale, I would presume that slowly the Terrans and Vasudens would keep expanding slowly and eventually you will get to a point where it would be impossible to clearly display it all
Another thing think about. FS1 mission 1. Alpha is defending the Orff in Betelgeuse system, how come there are two factions fighting in the system (look at the node map very carefully before answering) (for those who cant find it look between Delta Serp, Ross 128 and Beta Cygni)
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I think Galemp's map would be a good civilian/navigation version, it shows what could easily be described as trade routs along the strait lines, where as the original makes for a good cinematic representation for the gamer and shows the battle lines.
The problem with any star map is scale, I would presume that slowly the Terrans and Vasudens would keep expanding slowly and eventually you will get to a point where it would be impossible to clearly display it all
Another thing think about. FS1 mission 1. Alpha is defending the Orff in Betelgeuse system, how come there are two factions fighting in the system (look at the node map very carefully before answering) (for those who cant find it look between Delta Serp, Ross 128 and Beta Cygni)
Tip 1): Faction A holds it and B invades it.
Tip 2): The system is uncontested. (if this word means what I think, aka. both Terrans and Vasudans have forces in it and it isn't clear who is better)
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We had this huge debate about this once and concluded the lengths of the bars between systems do not represent real-world distances.
Trashman argued that they did, and that all the star systems had been renamed. That's Trashman for ya.
Linky please.
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http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,51146.msg1034801.html#msg1034801
That's the best I can find so far. Not sure if it's the one he means. Note you posted right after him ;)
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It is not that one...man, it was near the beginning of my time here. Let me look.
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Oh well, I'll keep looking too.
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Got it! Check out this page...
Here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,50391.msg1021096.html#msg1021096).
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I swear I posted more than once in that thread...
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I'm resurrecting this year-old thread. I like where the discussion leaves off. Think of this thread as an aged wine or cheese, rather than a disinterred corpse.
Droid's got it. Physical distance is meaningless in comparison to extradimensional weirdness distance, because that's how you travel.
This is interesting because it implies the possibility of Shivan-controlled systems just a few light years from the GTVA; on a 2D plane, one could say that there are Shivans in the crevices 'between' GTVA systems. Perhaps the 3rd Knossos in the binary system is only 1-2 jumps from Ross 128.
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Contested means there's a "contest" or "conflict." for a system. Uncontested means there isn't.
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We had this huge debate about this once and concluded the lengths of the bars between systems do not represent real-world distances.
Trashman argued that they did, and that all the star systems had been renamed. That's Trashman for ya.
You mean that one debate where I was completely right and you were completely wrong? You'll have to narrow it down for me...a lot.
And b.t.w. - I never argued that.
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Let's just let it slide. Long time back, pardner.
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can i just mention we are bringing up points made over a year ago judging by the dates on the quotes and on a subject with little or no canon data so fall back on the old line of What Ever Suits Your Campaign and leave it????? :nervous:
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I agree with headdie
but i have this to say:
Contested means there's a "contest" or "conflict." for a system. Uncontested means there isn't.
An uncontested system would any one of the following:
1) Uninhabited
2) Occupied by a single government
3) A system with a dual governing body - ie Humans and Zods share it...
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ITS A GAME.Really, why is everyone so surprised when they find glaring inconsistences in game universes? Games are designed to be fun and believable. Humans will believe anything that looks fine even if its grossly inaccurate, because most people don't really care.
People care. I care.
And Mother****er, ITS MORE THAN A GAME!
(For dramatic effect, not intended as a personal nub)
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And b.t.w. - I never argued that.
You are aware that less than five posts above yours is a direct link to a page where you do exactly that, right? And anyone with half a brain can see you're lying?
Emphasis mine.
With all due respect to Herra, but his theories have no barring on canon FS. Canon FS is the nodemap - if the nodemap doesn't show 61 Cygni, then for all intents and purposes it doesn't exist in FS2 universe (at least not under that name). If it shw Ross128 and Earth close to each other, then they are.
What happens in Rela Life (tm) is irrelevant to FS.
Nodemaps are 3D representations of star systems, thus have 3D coordinates that would logicly be on their right position. Can you supply me a single reason why one wouldn't just draw nodelines on a normal map?
And FYI, methinks your'e not getting what Herra realyl ment by that comment.
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Now making games is a form of art, so using the hole "it's just a game" argument seems not that correct.
And I myself I'm saying this, someone that has used that phrase in the past.
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What? It's a diagram. Get over it.
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Now making games is a form of art, so using the hole "it's just a game" argument seems not that correct.
And I myself I'm saying this, someone that has used that phrase in the past.
The problem is that if you say "it's just a game", it's excusable. If you take that away, it's no longer excusable.
Also, just because something's art doesn't mean it's necessarily any good.
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Also, just because something's art doesn't mean it's necessarily any good.
point.
art's crap sometimes, but this doesn't apply to FS universe.
I wonder, how would the node map look in FS3
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I wonder, how would the node map look in FS3
Considering you can lop off everything outside Capella? Green.
Or GTVA could build more Knossos devices and turn the map into spaghetti.
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i was looking at Galemp'ssimplified node map and had a thought: the first (major) encounter with the shivans was in Ross 128, 2 jumps from earth. how extremely lucky was humanity for earth to not get slagged within the first hours of the first incursion? aside from breaking up the story and losing some suspense, but you guys know what i mean. if earth got slagged in the second mission, that would be a short game.
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You are aware that less than five posts above yours is a direct link to a page where you do exactly that, right? And anyone with half a brain can see you're lying?
Emphasis mine.
Lack of comprehension and reading skills on your part?
I argued that the nodemap is a normal starchart with nodelines. I never claimed that the stars in FS2 and our starts are the same - quite the contrary. The "re-naming" of stars is just one of the many possible explanations I threw out there for those who insisted it MUST be the same, but that was never my driving theory.
You fail.
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You are aware that less than five posts above yours is a direct link to a page where you do exactly that, right? And anyone with half a brain can see you're lying?
Emphasis mine.
Lack of comprehension and reading skills on your part?
I argued that the nodemap is a normal starchart with nodelines. I never claimed that the stars in FS2 and our starts are the same - quite the contrary. The "re-naming" of stars is just one of the many possible explanations I threw out there for those who insisted it MUST be the same, but that was never my driving theory.
You fail.
Way to justify a ridiculous hypothesis with an even more ridiculous one.
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What you are arguing I don't even...
Clearly the distances between stars in the nodemap does not correspond to the actual physical distances between the stars we know now.
Whether this is because they are not the same stars in FS-verse as the ones we know today, or that the nodemap is just ****ed up is just whatever you'd like to believe.
You can never definitively prove either one...especially seeing as the game refers to Capella as a single star not a system of multiple stars, TrashMan's argument of stars being "renamed " (I would have just said that the stars in FreeSpace aren't the same ones in our universe or whatever) does hold some validity.
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i was looking at Galemp'ssimplified node map and had a thought: the first (major) encounter with the shivans was in Ross 128, 2 jumps from earth. how extremely lucky was humanity for earth to not get slagged within the first hours of the first incursion? aside from breaking up the story and losing some suspense, but you guys know what i mean. if earth got slagged in the second mission, that would be a short game.
Exactly. That always seemed strange to me.
In fact, there are a lot of strange things regarding the nodemap in my opinion.
We know Sol was an important system, and we can reasonably assume Delta Serpentis was important too*. Apparently Ross 128 was a disputed system used by Terrans for R&D**.
Then: why is Laramis a "previously unexplored system"***? Why did the Shivans tried to locate Sol searching in every other place in the area instead of just following the clear path (searching through the densely populated systems with a heavy industrial base)?
And if Laramis was previously unexplored: Is it possible that the Shivans entered Terran space through systems beyond Laramis? (for example: ??? -> Dubbe -> Alphard -> Barnard's Star -> Luyten 726-BA -> Laramis -> Ross 128).
The answer to some of these questions could possibly involve speculation about the Shivan's social and economical structure, and the state of Allied explorations of the galaxy.
*: It's just a jump away from Sol, its only nexus to the rest of the Alliance, and it's obvious it was the first system discovered by Terrans. It was also the capital of the GTA for a brief period after the node to Sol collapsed.
**: Consistent patrols, skirmishes with Vasudans, and the "deflector array" early energy defense system, serve as evidence.
***: It was described in those exact words when the Flail was introduced. It makes no sense to have an unexplored system so close to your core systems. Does it?
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***: {Laramis} was described in those exact words when the Flail was introduced. It makes no sense to have an unexplored system so close to your core systems. Does it?
Not if that system isn't terribly interesting at first glance. From what I understand, all the systems the way Beta Aquilae are far more profitable and strategically important. Why bother with Easter Islands when South America is right there?
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Someone make a realistic spacing Node map with current day distances and solve any dispute.
Then someone come up with a 3d virtual map fs2 cutscene type clip possibly to be viewed in the techroom. Then everyone can have exactly the nodemap they want.
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I did that once. The arrangement of the stars on the nodemap has little to no relation to their arrangement in realspace.
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So? Rehost it so people can all be happy!
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Sorry, don't have it handy, and it was not much more than some lines and a lot of figures.
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I tried it once too, by making a Custom Constellation in Celestia. It was a mess.
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***: It was described in those exact words when the Flail was introduced. It makes no sense to have an unexplored system so close to your core systems. Does it?
unless the node was recently opened or was too stable for travel by Terran and vasudan ships
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I tried it once too, by making a Custom Constellation in Celestia. It was a mess.
Whoa, I never thought of doing that. Any chance you still have the constellation file for it?
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I tried it once too, by making a Custom Constellation in Celestia. It was a mess.
Whoa, I never thought of doing that. Any chance you still have the constellation file for it?
Nah, that was years ago. Sorry. It wasn't difficult though, why not try it yourself?
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Way ahead of ya! :p
Asterism:
"GTVA Space"
[
[ "BL Cet" "CN Leo" "Alpha Hya" "Alpha UMa" "Gliese 699" "BL Cet" ]
[ "FL Vir" "Delta Ser" "Sol" ]
[ "Delta Ser" "Beta Aql" "Alpha Sco" "Beta Cyg" "Alpha Ori" ]
[ "Beta Aql" "Alpha Lyr" "Alpha Aur" "Gamma Dra" ]
[ "Alpha Aur" "Epsilon Peg" "Epsilon CMa" "Alpha CMi" ]
[ "Epsilon Peg" "Alpha Per" ]
[ "Epsilon Peg" "Polaris" "Regulus" "Sirius" "Alpha Cen" "Aldebaran" "Altair" ]
[ "Sirius" "Deneb" "Vega" ]
]
Only included the systems based on real stars (ie, no Ikeya, Laramis, Ribos, or Vasuda), though I may assign real stars to those later on.
And you were right, it's an absolute mess in 3D space.
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9884/celestiafsnodemap.jpg)
Looking toward earth, from somewhere near Beta Aquilae
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Haha, he uses Internet explorer
:p
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Yes, I love exploding my tubes. :D