Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: TrashMan on March 26, 2002, 06:12:42 am
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Has anyone noticed just how powerfull shivaan beams are compared to alliace beams. And not to mention it's rate of fire.
I'm not saying that Terran and Vasudan beams should be made faster: - the shivan ones should be made slower. I kinda like it when the battle last a bit more than 15 sec.
I'v put a Sathanas vs. 3 collossus dreughnoats. Guess who won!
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Terrans have had beam cannons for ~30 years.
Shivans have had beam cannos for ~8000 years.
which ones are better....man this is a hard one
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Originally posted by Stunaep
Terrans have had beam cannons for ~30 years.
Shivans have had beam cannos for ~8000 years.
which ones are better....man this is a hard one
Man, :D u have a point here :D. Well, the shivan beams should be mutch more stronger as they are, look the age of em. Mannnny improvments were made during that time :p
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Has anyone noticed just how powerfull shivaan beams are compared to alliace beams.
No. Huh? What are you talking about? Your words confuse and enrage me!
:doubt:
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Originally posted by Stunaep
Terrans have had beam cannons for ~30 years.
Shivans have had beam cannons for ~8000 years.
Then why didn't we see Liliths, Cains, or Demons with beams in Freespace 1? Mmm?
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I,m not woried about their strenght, it's o.k. for them to be more powerfull. I'm talking about their rate of fire. By the time Collossus fires 2 beams, the Sathanas has allready fired 12!
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Then why didn't we see Liliths, Cains, or Demons with beams in Freespace 1? Mmm?
why don't we see an invincible shielded Lucifer in FS2? mmh?
The answer is, ther might be a reason, or there might not. My answer is that V didn't just think about beams by FS1 time :p
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Originally posted by venom2506
why don't we see an invincible shielded Lucifer in FS2? mmh?
The answer is, ther might be a reason, or there might not. My answer is that V didn't just think about beams by FS1 time :p
Im thinking they did, I mean the idea that you have a line going from one ship to another that causes damage isn't too difficult. But building it into the engine was probably out of their programming range. I mean look at their poor ass attempt to give the lucifer beams.
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Originally posted by vadar_1
Im thinking they did, I mean the idea that you have a line going from one ship to another that causes damage isn't too difficult. But building it into the engine was probably out of their programming range. I mean look at their poor ass attempt to give the lucifer beams.
:ha: :ha: :D :D :D They're like a slow snail with track.
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Originally posted by TrashMan
I,m not woried about their strenght, it's o.k. for them to be more powerfull. I'm talking about their rate of fire. By the time Collossus fires 2 beams, the Sathanas has allready fired 12!
As someone already said, Shivans _are_ more advanced than GTVA. They probably also have better reactors, and better cooling systems to allow them to fire more rapidly.
Remember that in the Colossus vs Sathanas mission in the original campaign colossus had problems with their weapons overheating. So it could simply be a power/heat issue.
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Shivans probably use ZPE, or Zero Point energy, that wonderful, renewable energy source.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
Shivans probably use ZPE, or Zero Point energy, that wonderful, renewable energy source.
or something better, subspace is basically made of energy, isn't it? :)
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Originally posted by venom2506
or something better, subspace is basically made of energy, isn't it? :)
Nothing better than ZPE. ZPE is everywhere.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
Nothing better than ZPE. ZPE is everywhere.
Yep, nothing beat ZPE. ZPE Rules. All hail ZPE !!!!!!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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another reason why volition may not have added beams for fs1: fs1 is more cruiser based, cruisers dont last very long against beams, meaning the actual ships would die way too fast unless the hiked up the hull strength of the cruisers because a beam that does the same damage as a laser just makes no sense. The problem with increasing the strength of a cruiser's hull is that it would then be nearly impossible for fighters to kill cruisers.
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Originally posted by LtNarol
another reason why volition may not have added beams for fs1: fs1 is more cruiser based, cruisers dont last very long against beams, meaning the actual ships would die way too fast unless the hiked up the hull strength of the cruisers because a beam that does the same damage as a laser just makes no sense. The problem with increasing the strength of a cruiser's hull is that it would then be nearly impossible for fighters to kill cruisers.
well, they would use missiles or small, fighter version torpedoes. If they could have added beams in FS1, no doubt they would have done it.
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:sigh: Freespace 1 came out without much thought of Freespace 2. When Freespace 2 was in development, beam and flak code was developed and so beam and flak weaponry was included in FS2. OK?
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Originally posted by LtNarol
another reason why volition may not have added beams for fs1: fs1 is more cruiser based, cruisers dont last very long against beams, meaning the actual ships would die way too fast unless the hiked up the hull strength of the cruisers because a beam that does the same damage as a laser just makes no sense. The problem with increasing the strength of a cruiser's hull is that it would then be nearly impossible for fighters to kill cruisers.
BAH. Fighters should not be able to take down capships except with heavy torps, or by exploiting specific weaknesses. Fighters should fear capships.
Now bombers... capships should fear bombers and bombers should fear fighters.
[The preceding is strictly Mik's opinion, and may not represent the opinions of management--or Venom. ;) Sorry Venom. I had to. :D)
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Originally posted by mikhael
BAH. Fighters should not be able to take down capships except with heavy torps, or by exploiting specific weaknesses. Fighters should fear capships.
Now bombers... capships should fear bombers and bombers should fear fighters.
[The preceding is strictly Mik's opinion, and may not represent the opinions of management--or Venom. ;) Sorry Venom. I had to. :D)
:p
Tho I agree with you on that one, that's how it was supposed to be in my first attempt at making a campaign for FS2 ( it was a TC, I could do whatever I wanted )
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Originally posted by Pera
Yep, nothing beat ZPE. ZPE Rules. All hail ZPE !!!!!!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Gimme perpetual motion anytime
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Originally posted by mikhael
BAH. Fighters should not be able to take down capships except with heavy torps, or by exploiting specific weaknesses. Fighters should fear capships.
Or better yet, not at all. Which is why I'm glad there's the 'Huge' flag in the game. Fighters are made to protect stuff from other fighters/bigger stuff from bombers and to take out beam cannons. Dot.
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If shivans had beams 8000 years ago then by now (2367) they should have ultra-powrful BF beams about 100 times stronger then BFRed. :ha:
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The Shivans aren't actually renowned scientists. They did use Lucy 8000 years ago, so as far as I'm concerned they don't really care about progress. They care about wiping out civilizations.
So there!
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Originally posted by Stunaep
The Shivans aren't actually renowned scientists. They did use Lucy 8000 years ago, so as far as I'm concerned they don't really care about progress. They care about wiping out civilizations.
So there!
*thinking*
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Originally posted by Ten of Twelve
*thinking*
:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :confused:
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Originally posted by Ten of Twelve
If shivans had beams 8000 years ago then by now (2367) they should have ultra-powrful BF beams about 100 times stronger then BFRed. :ha:
you know, there's something about games...
it's called balance :p
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30 Fenrises can beat the caplat out of an Sathana even if they storm it head on and they have lesser mass than the sathana alltogheter... probably less crew than the colossus aswell...
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
30 Fenrises can beat the caplat out of an Sathana even if they storm it head on and they have lesser mass than the sathana alltogheter... probably less crew than the colossus aswell...
BAAAAAAANG! Wrong. :rolleyes: Sath would eat about 4 fenris's with one shot. And fenris has only a weak terran beam. :ha:
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Ten of Twelve have you tested it?...
I have, I made a map with 30 fenrises and 1 Sathana 6 km apart... the Fenrises won:ha:
5 out of 5 tests...:ha:
:ha: :ha: :ha:
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whoa, some people have too much free time :D
anyway, with 30 anything, you can trash a sathanas obviously :p
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you can do the same with 30 myrmidons, whats your point? and 30 myrmidons have a lot less crew than 30 fenris, lot less than even one fenris. :p
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how many fenrises went down
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Originally posted by venom2506
anyway, with 30 anything, you can trash a sathanas obviously :p
Not with 30 Elysiums... :D
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Originally posted by Setekh
Not with 30 Elysiums... :D
Give me an elysium with 8 helios bombs and sath will go down as easly as a nice fish... :ha:
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Elysium can't carry Helios' :ha:
This has to be the biggest amount of :ha: s I've seen in a single thread
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I know that Elysium can't carry helios.
BTW :ha: :ha: :ha: :ha: :ha: :ha:
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All right, enough wiht the :ha: s already.
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I don't think that the Shivans had beams when they fought the Ancients. If they did, why didn't Cains Liliths Demons and even Lucifer had beams? Ok, Volition didn't know how to make the beams for Freespace 1 so that leads to the conclusion that the Shivans may have attempted to create beam weapons before the Great War, ending up with the super Laser and mannaged to create real beams after the Great War
OR
The Lucifer fleet was lost in space for say about 8000 years and they had primitive Shivan technology which wasn't updated for thousonds of years and suddenly emerged in Terran-Vasudan space to demonstrate their power on the weak Terrans and Vasudans. :nod: Any opinios?
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Originally posted by Razor
The Lucifer fleet was lost in space for say about 8000 years and they had primitive Shivan technology which wasn't updated for thousonds of years and suddenly emerged in Terran-Vasudan space to demonstrate their power on the weak Terrans and Vasudans. :nod: Any opinios?
Nah, I'll stick with the idea that lucy was a scout. :ha:
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Lucy WAS a scout
They're back, and they're wondering what happened to their scouting party
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Nah, I'll stick with the idea that lucy was a scout.
:ha:
About 10-20 fenrises went down in the tests i did...
And no 30 AI controlled Myrmidions cant take down an Sathana on their own... with standard weapon configs...
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Originally posted by LtNarol
you can do the same with 30 myrmidons, whats your point? and 30 myrmidons have a lot less crew than 30 fenris, lot less than even one fenris. :p
True.
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Alright, on the ZPE comment in the thread.
Shivan weapons use ZPE, but I have it on good authority that the Lucifer and Shivan fighters and bombers are powered by fusion (thus the gas miners) and other capital ships use a different type of power source that interferres with shield systems.
On the Lucifer's beams, even in FS1 Volition could have replicated the FS2 beam effect save for the chargeup glows. The Lucifer's two forward "flux cannons" being as slow as they are I believe was supposed to be a sign of just how powerful and alien the technology is.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
:ha: :ha: No you cant. The Sathanas has a huge tag, therefore you can only get it down to 10% by shootin it. :p
mirmydon can carry helios :p
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Originally posted by venom2506
mirmydon can carry helios :p
heehee, someone obviously did their homework. Myrmidons are the best strike craft, they're fast, agile, and can back quite a blow. Sathanas take about 200 helios to kill, 30 myrmidons can carry 120 bombs, that means that if the player knows how to command a fighter group, the Sathanas probably wont get past 8 runs, by 10 it'll be dead for sure. This is figuring fighter losses, but as i said, a good fighter group commander can do this, you wont succeed if you let the sathanas kill your wingmen.
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Havent played FS2 in ages, played all of the campaigns currently out over and over again. Anyhow, i bet the sath could jump out before it died to the strike craft.
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bah, then it can for any kind of attack :p
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fine then, how many crew for one Fenris? 500? 1000? Get that many Myrmidons, same number of fighters as the crew of 1 Fenris. Then will the Sathanas have time to run? It only takes 200 myrmidons to kill the blasted monstrosity in one run, two runs with 100, and i can guarentee you that a Fenris has more than 100 crew members, and almost certainly more than 200.
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A Gaia could take it out, they're fast so they can go behind it and pound it from behind.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
A Gaia could take it out, they're fast so they can go behind it and pound it from behind.
But a Gaia would still carry more crew than the combined number of pilots in 18 squadrons, therefore you're risking more than you need, and if the sath has any substancial fighter/bomber support or capital ship support you're in trouble. Not the case with a bunch of Myrmidons, you can soak up a few losses but continue on to your target, then go after the Sathanas's support vessels and vehicles. 200 Myrmidons can also kill a Sathanas faster than a Gaia.
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anyway, the gaia isn't really powerfull enough to kill a sathanas. it's bigger than your regular orion, but it's still just a destroyer. wouldn't do much harm on it's own. But try Uriels any day :)
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why get humans in on it at all? Why not just have drone control freighters that launch 100s of drones with 1 helios each. Go out, boom, come back, re arm. No more humans required than the ones that program drones and grow food.
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Drones screw up, also in FS it just seems that AI tech never adapted quickly enough for drones to properly work beyond basic training and warhead targeting with quasi-AI technology. (ala Tsunamis)
Heck, they ditched even training drones for the TSM series...
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then that must be some pretty sad AI dude....it doesn't fit that they wouldn't have enough complexity of the AI to control a ship....I really don't think that they control every aspect of the cap ships, I'm sure that over 50% of ship functions are automated on the Destroyers, 'Vettes, and Cruisers. I really don't think that they have some guy sitting at a desk with a flipbook of known designs identifying ships as they come into radar range...
Also, a perspective from real life, we could probably make something like an auton- aton- (ah, ****, I can't spell) drone today. We have cameras that check faces against catalogs, modern day games, etc... We have massive amounts of AI all around us...
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Mmm saw on discovery some show about students making autonomonous robots basiclly they where choppers that could move into an area of hazardous waste locate radiactive drums and victims report it to a rescue crew and fly out by itself... pretty primitive but we are getting there...
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What's scary about arming drones is that target recognition is still worse than shaky on the AI systems we have (and will probably remain so for some time). After all, you don't want to send a drone out with a missile unless you are sure that the missile will not hit a friendly ship. It will always be easier to blame human error for friendly fire than technological failure.
And, for good measure, :ha: :ha: :ha: !
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For the purposes of this thread the launch vehicle could jump in behind the sath and just fire off the drones and jump out, then a control vehicle could guide the drones in. You could even dumbfire 'em in most situations, the Sath is a huge target.
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Why just not ram the sucker with 2-3 AI controled fenris cruisers with meson warheads onboard. Tested it in a mission - takes 3 of them to take it out.
Ever thought of making a meson-missile launcher: a massive cap-ship weapon that fires fighter size, shielded meson missiles!
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Have a Triton carrying a Meson bomb, kamikaze. Looks better.
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Originally posted by Analazon
then that must be some pretty sad AI dude....it doesn't fit that they wouldn't have enough complexity of the AI to control a ship....I really don't think that they control every aspect of the cap ships, I'm sure that over 50% of ship functions are automated on the Destroyers, 'Vettes, and Cruisers. I really don't think that they have some guy sitting at a desk with a flipbook of known designs identifying ships as they come into radar range...
Also, a perspective from real life, we could probably make something like an auton- aton- (ah, ****, I can't spell) drone today. We have cameras that check faces against catalogs, modern day games, etc... We have massive amounts of AI all around us...
Yeah, but as Ace said, AI doesn't seem to be very prevalent in Freespace. Automation is simply stuff to reduce manpower requirements for rote tasks, whereas true AI for military purposes would be sentient or nearly so.
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The Shivans aren't actually renowned scientists. They did use Lucy 8000 years ago, so as far as I'm concerned they don't really care about progress. They care about wiping out civilizations.
So there!
yeah, if you think about it, they really don't have anything new on their ships besides the beams and flak. ;) They might be changing their ships over time, but the new ones are probably similar to existing designs in terms of performance.
Shivans probably use ZPE, or Zero Point energy, that wonderful, renewable energy source.
In a command briefing, Petrarch says that the Kayser is based on Shivan technology, and we all know that the Kayser suppodefly uses ZPE, so that would make sense. ;) The Shivan fighter weapons are all crap in the game though. :p
The Lucifer fleet was lost in space for say about 8000 years and they had primitive Shivan technology which wasn't updated for thousonds of years and suddenly emerged in Terran-Vasudan space to demonstrate their power on the weak Terrans and Vasudans.
That certainly makes sense to me. The Shivan fleets do not necessarily have to keep in contact with each other, and the Great War fleet was probably different from the FS2 one due to it emerging from completely different locations. ;) It is possible that they all have the same roots but broke off either into different battle groups with the same objective, or autonomous factions, each with their own agendas. This would explain why the Lucifer fleet and the Sathanas fleet both used some of the same technologies, but the Sathanas fleet might have progressed in some ways and added new stuff in. ;)
I really don't think that they have some guy sitting at a desk with a flipbook of known designs identifying ships as they come into radar range...
A computer is probably used for that type of stuff; it has probably been given a big list of existing ships and possible names. When a ship comes in, it checks to see whether the ship is new or one that was previously encountered. If it is a new one, the computer assigns it a new name, which command tells you. ;)
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Why just not ram the sucker with 2-3 AI controled fenris cruisers with meson warheads onboard. Tested it in a mission - takes 3 of them to take it out.
Ever thought of making a meson-missile launcher: a massive cap-ship weapon that fires fighter size, shielded meson missiles!
heehee, way ahead of you. ITN already has 3 models for these LRM bombs, they will work like cruise missiles today.
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Well, it is a good idea.
Alltough I guess that our missels will look and preform different.