Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Cross-Platform Development => Topic started by: meego on June 01, 2009, 11:58:23 am
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With 3.6.10 around the corner, it may be time to update FS2_Open's system requirements.
I'm making this a OSX-only thread because it always felt that performance on OSX was really different from what I would get on Windows. Correct me if I'm wrong. As for Linux, I simply have no clue.
I'm using a 2007 2.2GHz MacBook Pro (128MB 8600M) and I've found that the latest graphical improvement put such a strain on my computer I have to remove a huge lot of stuff to get good performance.
This made me think.. It could be interesting to define system requirements for limited "profiles" such as:
- High End : everything ON (advanced vps, normal maps, 16x anisotropic filtering, 1440+ resolution, spec, glow, env, mipmap)
- Quality : advanced vps, normal maps, 8x anisotropic filterting, 1024+ resolution, spec, glow, env, mipmap
- Performance : advanced vps, normal maps, 2x anisotropic filtering, 800+ resolution, spec, glow, env, mipmap
- Classic : vanilla
Such information could be relevant in 3.6.10 release notes / FAQ for OSX. A lot of folks will probably come in with high expectations for graphical improvements and realize their computer can't handle most of them.
Maybe four profiles is too much. Maybe someone with a more acute sense of FS2_Open features' performance cost can define more relevant profiles.
My laptop is only able to run (barely) the performance profile, hence this WIP system requirements chart:
- High End : ?
- Quality : ?
- Performance : 2.2GHz Core 2 Duo, 2.5 GB RAM, 128MB NVIDIA 8600M
- Classic : ?
One last thing. There were last time I checked some specific ATI/NVIDIA issues with FS2_Open. Maybe I'm a few years late on this but if there are still some, it would be worth mentioning.
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Launcher is getting overhauled after 3.6.10.
Maybe we can consider profiles then.
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Actually the launcher flags already have different profiles, but they're hardcoded and static across the platforms. That doesn't include things on the graphics tab, but most of those settings don't currently do anything anyway. I don't think Soulstorm's launcher uses those command line option profiles either, but I could be wrong.
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meego,
I've got pretty much exactly the same hardware on which I've been doing the Mac OpenGL troubleshooting for 3.6.10. I'd venture that the big increase in OS X users since 3.6.9 all have at least as good hardware as us.
The hardware *should* support pretty much all eye candy turned on - and it does if I boot into Windows - EXCEPT for a bug in normal mapping. There's still a glaring performance bug (Mantis 1881 (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=1881)) that means the GLSL shader code gets run on the CPU rather than utilising the more efficient GPU.
At present, for 3.6.10 to be playable on OS X, you've got to enable -no_glsl on the command line / Launcher. Any other options or advanced vps can be run with little trouble.
I'd love to get this solved prior to 3.6.10 FINAL, but myself and others who know the graphics code are still scratching our heads trying to work out why the code works on Windows but not on OS X.
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Yup, I feel your pain guys, hopefully that can all get sorted out by the end of the year.
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Thanks for the heads up on the shaders issues.
As for system requirements and profiles, I guess then there is little point in defining system requirements until Mantis 1881 is fixed.
I'd love to get this solved prior to 3.6.10 FINAL, but myself and others who know the graphics code are still scratching our heads trying to work out why the code works on Windows but not on OS X.
From what I heard, ATI and (especially) NVIDIA drivers for OSX are not exactly state of the art... Good luck with that :blah:
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From what I heard, ATI and (especially) NVIDIA drivers for OSX are not exactly state of the art... Good luck with that :blah:
As of late, I'm less inclined to believe it's a driver issue - more likely something in the way the FS2Open code base interfaces with the OpenGL libraries.
The recent 10.5.7 release for OS X saw a slight overall improvement in OpenGL performance, but I think that's more the impact of small iterative improvements in the drivers.
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Actually the launcher flags already have different profiles, but they're hardcoded and static across the platforms. That doesn't include things on the graphics tab, but most of those settings don't currently do anything anyway. I don't think Soulstorm's launcher uses those command line option profiles either, but I could be wrong.
You are right. I only include in the launcher the things that the flag.lch file gives me. I would like to include more, though. When 3.6.10 comes out, I will visit the Wiki. I will see what has changed in terms of the way profiles and the flag file is handled, and will work my way towards Launcher 4. Yes, I haven't forgotten about that. The fact that I have fixed most of the problems with the 3 version, doesn't mean that the source is not cr*p at this point and doesn't need a rewrite :)
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My Mid 2007 MacBook (2.16GHz C2D, GMA950) can handle the training missions and the first few missions of the main campaign at 1280x800 with none of the graphical extras on (I have them off because I can't be bothered with them, even on the system with the Radeon 4850). It'll probably fall over once you get to the nebula missions or larger missions like what you get in Derelict but I can't be bothered playing ahead far enough to find out, especially when mouse acceleration is still flaky.
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Mine is an early 2008 MacBook. It can handle absolutely everything ... just.
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Mine is an early 2008 MacBook. It can handle absolutely everything ... just.
Including normal maps (i.e. -normal on the command line)?
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Yes, everything.
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Hello. I have two macbooks, one is the brand new late 2009 and the other is a 2k7. Neither of them will run FSO well with all the stuff turned on. In fact, performance is indistinguishable between the two systems. One has a stock Intel graphics and the other one has the Nvidia.
Could you be more specific as to how you're accomplishing this? With everything turned on, missions like Renegades or Tenderizer are nearly unplayable (~10 fps with more than one ship on screen). This is with the default turey install.
Despite this issue, I really appreciate you guys for getting this running on the mac.
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Try disabling things and then seeing what causes the slowdown. First things to try would be normal maps and/or env maps. Enable the -no_glsl flag too perhaps, that will in turn disable normal maps since they depend on GLSL.
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I was trying this last night, but I couldn't get the launcher to actually disable anything. I tried checking nogsls in the launcher, but everything appeared as normal. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong, and should just handkey the command line options.
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Hmm, Soulstorm's launcher has given me troubles like that recently too. Not sure if it is at the moment though, don't fire it up on my mac a lot.
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I was trying this last night, but I couldn't get the launcher to actually disable anything. I tried checking nogsls in the launcher, but everything appeared as normal. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong, and should just handkey the command line options.
Hmm, Soulstorm's launcher has given me troubles like that recently too. Not sure if it is at the moment though, don't fire it up on my mac a lot.
If the OS X Launcher doesn't seem to save any flag changes, try pressing the Save button before pressing the Reload button.
Also, bear in mind that I mentioned the word "just", which means that I can still play FS2_Open with everything turned on, albeit barely.
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If the problem persists, I would really like someone to tell me more about the problem with the Launcher.
Tomorrow, guys will be a happy day for me. I give the last 2 lessons form my exams (those exams lasted two months!!) and then, I will be free to completely get rid of the old source of the Launcher.
So, any bug reports will be heard of, and I can start looking at bugs with the "old" Launcher instantly.
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I had meant to do a little more investigation myself before mentioning it, figured I had goofed somewhere, but since someone else mentioned it I figured I'd bring it up too. I'll check here in a couple minutes maybe before I leave the office to see if it's still going on.
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Wow. Thanks for dropping in Soul. I really appreciate everything you've done. As it stands right now, I can't get Freespace to recognize command line parameters with or without your Launcher. So, I don't know if it's your problem.
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I'm not having the problem I was having the other day either. Maybe I was forgetting save. Custom resolutions and the window/fullscreen window flags seem to be working just fine.
But man, this thing seems to run pretty slow. At least with GLSL, Normals, and Post Processing in full screen. In full screen window without GLSL it seems to run ok. Not sure what the bottleneck is.
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After testing some, I can confirm some things. I can change resolution, aspect ratio, mod, ambient through oglspec, weapon/ship 3d and other things.
However, none of the troubleshooting or spec through 3dshockwave seem to have any effect. no_glsl certainly doesn't have any effect.
Thanks!
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Also, the devtools stuff works, too. With either a 2009 or 2007 macbook with most turned on, I'm getting < 10fps. I'm not ungrateful, just trying to figure out if I can get better performance.
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Like I said, look at the few things I mentioned I disabled to get playable framerates. It's either GLSL, normal maps, the post processing support (none actually enabled in the mission), or the particular type of fullscreen/windowed mode. Try the -fullscreen_window flag and see if that changes from regular fullscreen mode.
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OK, maybe we can work something out. You say that no matter which method you use (plain text command line or the Launcher) the application cannot recognize anything. The way the Launcher works, it is changing the command line file, and when FS2_Open runs, it takes parameters from that file. Each time the Launcher opens, it takes parameters from that file and checks the available boxes.
So, when you say FS2_Open doesn't recognize due to Launcher fault, some parameters, let's try to rule out any other possibilities first.
So, the first obvious question that comes to mind wether the FS2_Open changes the command line by itself to a default sate when it opens, or wether it doesn't take the command line file into consideration at all!
So, I would like you to perform this test:
1) Open the command line file, which is "cmdline_fso.cfg" inside your FS2_Open folder inside your user's library, and change it to something else. Write a custom command line with options you would like to use.
2) Save it. (DO NOT FORGET THIS STEP. Many power users seem to forget this simple one)
3) Close it. (do not leave it open)
3) Run FS2_Open.
4) Quit FS2_Open
5) Reopen the cfg file.
Does it contain the same contents?
You can perform the same test with the Launcher if you want. Open the Launcher, make changes, close the Launcher, (do not start up FS2_Open, you don't have to), and then reopen the CFG file. Do you see the command line arguments you checked in there?
If you do, then it's not a problem of the Launcher, it's a problem of FS2_Open. If FS2_Open sees a parameter in the command line file that it doesn't recognize, it will display an error dialog. If it recognizes a command but doesn't do anything about it, maybe the feature is obsolete, and maybe things for FS2_Open have changed and while I was studying for my exams and I didn't notice!
EDIT: I forgot to mention that the Launcher saves the user's options, each time before it Launches FS2_Open, and each time before it closes. So no matter if you press the save button or not, things should work. The save button exists in case you want to perform changes into many standalone mods. That way you can save your changes without having to run or close the app before you select the next available standalone mod.
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Like I said, I don't think that it's a launcher problem. I tried changing command line stuff myself, and I can't get the things I listed to work command line or launcher. I will take your suggestions and try them this weekend. Thanks so much!