Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on March 27, 2002, 01:45:50 pm
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:mad2: 15 dead, over 100 wounded (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=146327&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0) :mad:
On Passover Eve....!
God, have mercy! :(
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Originally posted by sandwich
God, have mercy! :(
Don't bet on it man. :(
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nothing new here, sadly...
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Originally posted by sandwich
:mad2: 15 dead, over 100 wounded (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=146327&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0) :mad:
On Passover Eve....!
God, have mercy! :(
:( :mad: indeed.
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I'm lucky. There's no dead people where I am. :ha:
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Seems like this sort of thing is happening every week. :(
I still think Israel should just conduct a full-scale military attack and take control of the surrounding area by force, as well as capture the Arafat guy. This has been going on for far too long and the nation has tolerated its enemy long enough in my opinion.
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Originally posted by Ten of Twelve
I'm lucky. There's no dead people where I am. :ha:
That makes no sense (unless you're in the middle of the ocean or somewhere very far from all forms of human life).
I honestly cannot understand why they fight. Granted, killin stuff is fun as hell but fighting for land is so utterly ****ing stupid. I know this sounds suspiciously like hippy-talk but it ain't. The simple fact is that in modernized nations (Canada and upwards) it doesn't matter how fertile the soil is or what the climate is like, you can still grow stuff and build things. Fighting a religious war is even ****ing stupider. If you're right then the other people will get what they deserve when they die naturally, if you're wrong then you're ****ed and should try to stay alive as long as is biologically possible.
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Originally posted by CP5670
Seems like this sort of thing is happening every week. :(
I still think Israel should just conduct a full-scale military attack and take control of the surrounding area by force, as well as capture the Arafat guy. This has been going on for far too long and the nation has tolerated its enemy long enough in my opinion.
I think I should point out that there is UN resolution against Israel over..err...Jerusalem is it? But seen as the Jews run everything and Israel are in good with America, **** all ever gets done to enforce whatever sanctions the UN thought up.
I'm too tired to remember the specifics but it went something like: UN decide Israel are wrong and tell them to ****-off. Israel ignore UN. Sanctions/penalties impose. Punishment never enforced.
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Originally posted by an0n
That makes no sense (unless you're in the middle of the ocean or somewhere very far from all forms of human life).
I honestly cannot understand why they fight. Granted, killin stuff is fun as hell but fighting for land is so utterly ****ing stupid. I know this sounds suspiciously like hippy-talk but it ain't. The simple fact is that in modernized nations (Canada and upwards) it doesn't matter how fertile the soil is or what the climate is like, you can still grow stuff and build things. Fighting a religious war is even ****ing stupider. If you're right then the other people will get what they deserve when they die naturally, if you're wrong then you're ****ed and should try to stay alive as long as is biologically possible.
There's really not a single dead people where I am. (if you're not dead) :p
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Originally posted by an0n
That makes no sense (unless you're in the middle of the ocean or somewhere very far from all forms of human life).
I honestly cannot understand why they fight. Granted, killin stuff is fun as hell but fighting for land is so utterly ****ing stupid. I know this sounds suspiciously like hippy-talk but it ain't. The simple fact is that in modernized nations (Canada and upwards) it doesn't matter how fertile the soil is or what the climate is like, you can still grow stuff and build things. Fighting a religious war is even ****ing stupider. If you're right then the other people will get what they deserve when they die naturally, if you're wrong then you're ****ed and should try to stay alive as long as is biologically possible.
Methinks, someone is really pissed off now.
With good reason, i might add.
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Originally posted by Ten of Twelve
There's really not a single dead people where I am. (if you're not dead) :p
Internet. Funny.
WHo's pissed off? Me? Why? When? How? Who? What?
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Originally posted by an0n
That makes no sense (unless you're in the middle of the ocean or somewhere very far from all forms of human life).
For once I agree 100% with Fattonys point, human beings are terrible things in many cases - more so in groups. Finding the good ones is a trick I'm still trying to master - there aren't many out there (although you guys all count ;) )
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Originally posted by Thunder
For once I agree 100% with Fattonys point, human beings are terrible things in many cases - more so in groups. Finding the good ones is a trick I'm still trying to master - there aren't many out there (although you guys all count ;) )
Don't be so sure ;7 (man I love you people here) :D
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Originally posted by an0n
I think I should point out that there is UN resolution against Israel over..err...Jerusalem is it? But seen as the Jews run everything and Israel are in good with America, **** all ever gets done to enforce whatever sanctions the UN thought up.
I'm too tired to remember the specifics but it went something like: UN decide Israel are wrong and tell them to ****-off. Israel ignore UN. Sanctions/penalties impose. Punishment never enforced.
:wtf: :wtf: Israel is the one suffering from terrorism.
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I don't think we can just say something like "Those are the good guys, those are the bad guys", life isn't black and white. Terrorism isn't the right way to solve anything, but who excactly is the one to say what is terrorism and what is not?
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Man...the fighting over there never stops, and sadly, I doubt it ever will. How long have these guys been at it? A few years, decades, centuries?! It really is sad to watch every week on World News Tonight that yet another moron has blown himself up...:sigh:
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The world is full of morons. :sigh:
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Terrorists are bad guys.
People who help terrorists are bad guys.
People who accept terrorists are bad guys.
I know that much, and about that I'm sure.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
:wtf: :wtf: Israel is the one suffering from terrorism.
Yeah, because they ****ed over the Palestinians.
For once I agree 100% with Fattonys point
Strange in itself but what's stranger is that you refered to me as Fattony.
Terrorists are bad guys.
People who help terrorists are bad guys.
People who accept terrorists are bad guys.
I know that much, and about that I'm sure.
It's all about perspective. Were the French resistance bad-guys during WW2? No, they were freedom fighters. They were freedom fighters because their side eventually won. If Palestine was the major player in international affairs then you could bet your ass that Israel would be the 'evil terrorists'.
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Originally posted by an0n
If Palestine was the major player in international affairs then you could bet your ass that Israel would be the 'evil terrorists'.
:ha:
I don't know if anyone told you, but the difference between legitimate military action and terrorism is that in terrorism you don't warn anyone about it, and you strike innocent civilians. Now, who's acting that way in this conflict? And you still try to say that the Israeli people are the terrorists?!?
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IIRC Israel didnt want to Six Day War. Um the French resistance and palastinian terrorists are not the same thing, totally not the same thing.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
The French resistance and palastinian terrorists are not the same thing, totally not the same thing.
Indeed. If the French Resistance killed innocent civilians just because they were german, they so definately weren't good guys - and if you're not one of the good guys...
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To my knowledge, the French hit things like bridges and railways, things of military signifigance
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Originally posted by Blue Lion
To my knowledge, the French hit things like bridges and railways, things of military signifigance
And that's exactly my point... ;)
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point is, nobody really knows the whole story. this whole thing goes back thousands of years. undoubtedly, there are those that want the violence to continue, that way they can stay in power. Both sides have done dirt. Theres no easy answer. All I can say is that I feel for the Israelis having to deal with the terror attacks, but at the same time, I feel for the palestinians too. In my unqualified opinion, the state of Israel has no business being where it is. As I understand it, after world war two, britain and the US decided that after 6 million Jews were murdered, they deserved a homeland, which was a noble sentiment. Unfortunately, there were people living on the land where they chose to live. That and the fact that there are people on the planet that have suffered far more. Stalin killed 10 million of his own people, yet the russian peasants didnt get their own country. Estimates run as high as 100 million death in the african slave trade but there is no United Negro States of America. The palestinians were small enough that we could bully them and take their land, and for that I agree with their anger. However, their methods are flawed. Point is, the whole setup is flawed, and as long as there is a state of Isreal, there will be fighting.
Sad but true
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coming from Ernies house of whoop-ass (http://www.ehowa.com) is a sardonically accurate summary of mid east history
So let us first turn back the hands of time, to when life first formed here on Earth. Deep in the muck and protoplasmic slime, we see two groups of single celled organisms. Those from Group-A begin throwing microscopic flecks of stardust at Group-B, who in return fire back with microscopic rubber bullets. Then a cell from Group-A absorbs a bit of methane gas, migrates over to Group-B and promptly explodes, killing not only himself but mortally wounding several Group-B cells in the process. The remaining Group-A cells rejoice, as Group-B cells plan a counterattack after some of their cells learn they can become airborne.
These puddles of muck and slime will, after continental shift, become the lands we know as Israel and the West Bank, and yes I suspect the violence has been going on that long.
Okay now let’s spin our clocks ahead to like the 0 A.D. timeframe. In thirty words or less, Jews were enslaved by various civilizations most of which were settled in the Middle East and whose roots can be traced as the ancestors of the many Arabic countries we know today.
(You read as: Arabs enslaved the Jews since the word "go").
This you-enslave-me-but-you’ll-never-win-our-hearts-and-minds relationship went on for a bazillion ****ing generations until eventually the Jews fled their “Promised Land” and found new places to live where they weren't persecuted, and the Arabs absorbed the vacated areas.
Now spin the time dial forward to the late 1930's. The Jews have settled more or less all over Eastern Europe. Enter a short little man with a mustache and a big gas bill, and with the conclusion of WWII we also see the conclusion of some 6,000,000 more Jews. Well, at the end of WWII, the powers that be (the US along with Britain, the Soviet Union, and France -- hahaha just kidding about France) held the Jews up and said, "Holy **** you poor people, you've had the living **** kicked out of you for some few thousand years or so. Tell us where would like to live in complete sanctuary for the rest of your days?"
As I recall, they narrowed it down to some place in Africa (where is inconsequential now so if you know don't tell me I don't give a ****) and some land in the Middle East, which we now know as Israel. Well it doesn't take Colombo to figure out where they chose, and the US more or less said to the Palestinians, "Hey nice place now get the **** out." The Palestinians were pushed out, and the Jews returned to the land they held way back when people wrote on walls with rocks.
Presto-whiz-bango, the State of Israel was officially born. Queue bands, music, banners, food, etc, etc, etc.
Now the Israelis -- as they were now officially called -- said to themselves, "Okay we've been the party *****es for everyone pretty much since the beginning of recorded time, especially with this Holocaust thing, so we have to make sure this will never happen again." And so it was decreed that every Israeli citizen, both male and female, would spend time in the military so everyone knew how to defend their civilization. So they trained and trained and prepared and prepared, all to insure the persecution of their kind would never happen on such a monumental scale again.
Now spin the clock forward to 1967, and we find Israeli surrounded like they are today - pretty much by angry Arabs -- Syria to the North, Jordan to the East, and Egypt to the South. Israel is bordered by the Mediterranean Sea on the West for those of you geographically challenged. Well the president of Egypt at the time decided that he didn't want Israel to exist any more, so he picked up his Bat-phone and dialed all those Arab states surrounding Israel, and called upon them to wage one of their Holy Wars to, “rid the world of the Zionists pigs." (“Zionist” being a cool catch phrase for a Jew).
Israel, being prepared this time and determined not to be beaten like a rented mule, deciding they would be having none of this and popped the top on the “Extra Strength Can of Whoop Ass”. Thus commenced the "Six Day War".
Why’d they call it the Six Day War, you ask? Because that's how long it took Israel to beat the ****ing snot out of all three of their attackers. Six ****ing days. You think we whipped Iraq or Afghanistan's ass quick? Hell no. June 5th, 1967 Israel beat the **** out of Egypt, the Jordanians on the 7th, and finally the Syrians on the 9th.
So by the time the 11th rolled around, the Israeli soldiers were back in streets of Tel Aviv doing the, "We Kicked Your ****ing Arab Ass Dance", having captured lands known as the West Bank (where the Palestinians are living), the Gaza Strip (from the Egyptians), and the Golan Heights (from the Syrians). Thus the establishment of the Israelis as people not to be ****ed with and their, "If you ain't Jewish, you ain't ****," attitude.
It's important to note here that in the West Bank are Jerusalem, Bethlehem, and a snot load of other very religious places that hold high regard in both Judaism and Islam. And there’s no separation between them either, both Jewish and Islamic holy places all mixed in together to a “Berlin Wall” type solution just wouldn’t work.
These spankings kept things quiet save for a few skirmishes in the 1970's, until 1982 when Israel decided to lay the pimp-smack down on Lebanon. The key thing to remember here is one of the commanders in the Israeli forces at the time was a General Ariel Sharon (name ring a bell?), who not only orchestrated many of the attacks on the Lebanese army, but also is accused by many Arab nations of ordering the slaughter of a **** load of Lebanese civilians.
Now, whether or not this slaughter actually happened -- both sides claim opposite stories and I don't ****ing know who to believe to be honest -- doesn't really make a ****ing difference. The point is the Arabs believe he did and nobody, but nobody, is going to change their minds. In their eyes he's a butcher who kills women and children, period, end of discussion.
Again there were a few little skirmishes in the 1990’s, but again nothing too major and all is quiet for a while until the year 2000 (see a twenty’ish year cycle here?). The existing cease fire between the Arabs and the Israelis was threadbare after all this time, and it's now that the retired Ariel Sharon makes the dumbass decision to visit one of the Jew’s most religious places (good) but does so on one of the most holy days in the Islamic faith (bad). The Arabs go ****ing nuts withthe return of "the butcher", riots start, bullets fly, and the rest we can get off CNN.
So for eighteen months now, it's been Arabs throw rocks, Israelis shoot bullets. Arabs shoot bullets, Israelis use tanks. Arabs make suicide bombs, Israelis launch planes. Then things cool down for a few days, maybe a week, and we start all over again with Arabs throwing rocks, Israelis shooting, and we're ****ing back to square one.
In the past few weeks we've seen a few dashes of hope that this whole Middle East violence thing might be wrapping up. The Saudi peace plan looked most promising in my opinion, but even that's doomed to fail. Why? Well, the deal is Israel gives back the land they occupied back from the Six Day War -- a big bone of contention for many Arab countries -- and in return Israel will “officially be recognized” by those same Arab nations.
Riiiiiight. So that “recognition” will last about three to four weeks, and then one of the Arabic nations will snub their nose at either Israel or Ariel Sharon or both, and the rest will inevitably follow suit. Israel will then cry foul, the US will agree, and thus we’ll be secured for another twenty years in the eyes of Arab nations everywhere as, “the American capitalist dog, masters of the puppet Sharon and his Zionist regime.”
Then one of the militant Palestinian groups - not happy with getting their land back but will instead want to push the issue to a boiling point, will throw a rock at Israeli border guards. This will of course lead to the Israelis shooting back with rubber bullets (sound familiar?), which will lead to more rocks being thrown until an Israeli soldier gets seriously wounded, then the real bullets come in and, well, I guess I don’t have to tell you the rest. You already know it, now don’t you?
Look I’d love to hold your hand and sing “Kum’bi’yah” with the rest of your friends -- I’d like to see peace in the Middle East as much as anyone else, I’d get to travel again, gas prices would go down, and these people would be off my ****ing news -- but the simple fact is it’s never, ever, ever, ever going to happen. Never. Ever. Period. The best anyone is ever going to do is orchestrate a ceasefire which will be doomed to fail before it even begins. The fires of hatred glow brighter here than in any other place on earth, and there’s no politician or peacemaker with gloves thick enough to handle it for more than a few seconds at a time.
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I don't care for the cause, if the people who fight for it use terrorist tactics. Terrorists of any and all kinds deserve to suffer the most horrid and painful death ever imagined...
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Originally posted by NegspectahDek
...but the simple fact is it’s never, ever, ever, ever going to happen. Never. Ever. Period. The best anyone is ever going to do is orchestrate a ceasefire which will be doomed to fail before it even begins.
I can't say I like all the cursing (where the heck did the language filter go?), but I can, on the most part, agree with the sentiment, especially the part I quoted. I've said plenty on this subject, so I'll just end with a favorite quote of mine:
by Golda Meir, Israel's Prime Minister, 1969-74 (during the Yom Kippur War), concerning the Palestinians:
“I can forgive you for killing my sons, but I cannot forgive you for forcing me to kill your sons.”
:(
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i just cut and paste
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Boom.
I sure as hell wouldn't want to live there. The geology is pretty boring, although there's some interesting continental transforms. Talk about dull. Hell, about the only mineral resource there is sand.
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Originally posted by NegspectahDek
point is, nobody really knows the whole story. this whole thing goes back thousands of years. undoubtedly, there are those that want the violence to continue, that way they can stay in power. Both sides have done dirt. Theres no easy answer. All I can say is that I feel for the Israelis having to deal with the terror attacks, but at the same time, I feel for the palestinians too. In my unqualified opinion, the state of Israel has no business being where it is. As I understand it, after world war two, britain and the US decided that after 6 million Jews were murdered, they deserved a homeland, which was a noble sentiment. Unfortunately, there were people living on the land where they chose to live. That and the fact that there are people on the planet that have suffered far more. Stalin killed 10 million of his own people, yet the russian peasants didnt get their own country. Estimates run as high as 100 million death in the african slave trade but there is no United Negro States of America. The palestinians were small enough that we could bully them and take their land, and for that I agree with their anger. However, their methods are flawed. Point is, the whole setup is flawed, and as long as there is a state of Isreal, there will be fighting.
Sad but true
Obviously you don't know history. :rolleyes:
The whole story goes back to roman times when the Jews were expelled (mostly) out of Palestina due to them being stubborn. After that, the jews still living in the area were quite peaceful, even uder islamic or Ottoman rule (the even had a chief rabbi under the Ottomans apparantly)
When under the British, the Brits allowed Jewish migration into the area... up to a certain extent after which they became rather opposed to the idea. by that time it was too late though and in 1948 BOTH Israel and Palestine were formed as independent states by the UN! The partition was done along the lines of legal land-ownership (Jewish settlers had bought the lands of Muslim landowners that didn't want the land).
What happens next? The arabs aren't happy and vow to destroy the new Jewish state and urge the Palestinian to leave the land only to return a few weeks later when Israel is destroyed (I'm not saying the Israel didn't urge some of them to leave too). But, the holy warriors of Islam lose... bigtime and Israel takes more land. Which is their reward for winning a war.
Anyway, 1967 turns around and the Arab states have another go at it but lose again. Isreal occupies the rest (IIRC) and we end up in current situation after a while.
You can say what you want but Israel has every right to be there, just like Palestine has every right to be there. Both peoples will have to accept that the area will contain two independent nations. And may I remind you that by your logic many other nations would exist either. Least of the US, Turkey, France, UK, and so on and so forth. Every single people has moved over the last 10.000 years so your point is not valid.
Yeah, Stalin killed a lot of his own people but the Russian farmers didn't need a homeland because they already have one. Haven't you seen RUSSIAN FEDERATION been printed on every worldmap since 1991, and USSR or Russian Empire before that?
100 million deaths in African slavetrade? Get real, there weren't that many Africans on the continent during that time to begin with. And the Africans will do just fine once they can sort their mess out (okay, the West had a hand in it but is not to blame solely)
The palestines were and are abused by their fellow Arabs. It's as simple as that. Israel won't be destroyed and if it ever is there won't be a living soul left in Palestine either. You can bet on it. Like i said: both nations will have to live together.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
:wtf: :wtf: Israel is the one suffering from terrorism.
Depends on whether your definition of "terrorism" is based more on the murder of civilians or whether a person has a better explosives guidance system than a 16-year-old. Both sides seem to be under governments that are essentially "terrorist", lead by the howling, murderous extremist minority. If you wanna get technical, Israeli troops have killed far more Palestinian innocents than the Palestinians have killed Israelis, but that's just another silly way of defining who's worse- were the Palestinians in possession of the sort of weaponry the Israeli army has, and the Israelis given no recourse but bricks and kamikaze attacks, roles would be almost precisely reversed. Two armed axe murderers locked in a room with each other and a good dozen unarmed civilians who just happened to be around- who's gonna say what's justice?
Particularly since the only one capable of making any real judgement on the matter is that third murderer standing on a convieniently inaccessible balcony with a sniper rifle. Guess who.
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Definition of a terrorist? A palastinian suicide bomber who walks into a hotel and blows himself up or pilots a plane into the side of a building, deliberating targetting and killing civilians!
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As opposed to an Israeli helicopter pilot or soldier? You could not have possibly both have read my post and know anything at all about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, to just post the same old thing again. Think before you post, OK? It saves me so much time and despair for humanity's essential ability to grasp basic concepts, even ones antithetical to what they have thought previously.
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Your post makes no sense, going on about Israeli suicide bombers(as if Jews would do that), be happy that i decided to dignifie it with a response. An Israeli solider is defending his country, by shooting the terrorists, protecting civilians, crossfire is unavoidable. Anyhow this thread is getting ugly, so it might be best to close it.
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I never said a single thing about Israeli suicide bombers. You're refusing to think on purpose- it's something people seem to do a lot when they can't make a point. The Israeli soldiers have killed MANY more times the number of civilians Palestinians have. They've killed very few "terrorists". What's more, the Sharon government isn't protecting **** by furthering the feeling of oppression and need for violent uprising among the Palestinians. You don't "protect" people by whipping their already bitter enemies into a murderous, obsessive, suicidal hatred. You do it by treating those enemies like humans- and slaughtering them like cattle and penning them up lioke sheep is easily the worst way to do that. If Israeli sodiers are somehow targeting "terrorist" Palestinian freedom fighters and just happen to have such terrible aim that they've killed practically every civilian they've come across, perhaps they shouldn't have guns.
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Yes you did, going on about a reversal of roles etc etc etc.
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the state of Israel:
During WWII, a scientist discovered someway to make atomic power more potent and gave that knowledge to the Brittish. In return, the Brittish asked him what he wanted, and he asked for a homeland for Jews.
The Palistinians (sp) were living in the area chosen for the Jewish homeland and were promptly kicked out by the Brittish. Very few countries would take in these Palistinian refugees so they were more or less left without a home, not to mention their traditional territories.
The Brittish eventually had to back down due to certain problems (economics failure if i remember correctly) and the United States took up Israel's cause.
For decades the area has been torn by terrorist attacks, be it suicide bombings or walk in shootings. Israel is not the only one suffering from terrorist attacks however.
Also keep in mind that what in our eyes might be a terrorist is a freedom fighter fighting for a noble cause in someone else's. I may not agree with terrorism, much less support it, but you have to see where these guys are coming from.
To the Jewish, they have been mistreated since the beginning of time, from enslavement to the kind of mass genocide we saw in WWII; they have longed for a home and now that they have one, they're not about to give it up.
For the Palistinians (sp), they have been kicked off their homes and sent elsewhere. They want their homes back, and they wont get it through diplomacy as Israel will not give up any of its holdings, nor would the US or the UN back up the Palistinians since they are supporting Israel. This leaves them with very few options, none of which are very pretty.
Therefore, whats happening down there is tragic, but it is no one country's fault and peace for those living there will be a long time in coming.
THE OPINIONS STATED ABOVE DO NOT REPRESENT THOSE OF THE MANAGEMENT, CREDIT FOR THIS GOES TO MY GEOGRAPHY TEACHER FOR TEACHING ME ALL THIS STUFF
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Zero: I said that were the roles reversed, the Palestinians would have butchered more innocent bystanders than the Israelis, and thus judging the conflict by numbers was just as irrelevant as by method of butchering said bystanders. Seriously, if you're just going to intentionally not get something as clear as what I posted, just don't respond. You won't look dumb. Someone else may actually BE able to think past the whole I-didn't-think'of-it-already-so-it-must-not-make-sense bit, and be able to argue. You're just annoying me and making yourself look silly right now.
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Told you it was getting ugly. People are becomming petty and offencive.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
Told you it was getting ugly. People are becomming petty and offencive.
Thats because this is such a controvercial issue and one most people feel very deeply about. Personally i pity everyone down there, can't we all just get along? :nod:
:D
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Petty and offensive? I'm doing my best not to be, considering you're running into problems reading my post a 12-year-old doesn't notice. I'm sure you're a very smart and interesting person on many things- in fact, I know you are- but you've got what is known as "crimestop" by dystopia theorists. You can't grasp concepts that run against your currently ingrained beliefs, and fail to see the logic in any opposing argument. It's a psychological problem that runs rampant throughout history, and one whose only known curative is recognition and self-policing for a time, until one can think uninhibited again. Frankly, I lack the patience to deal with you on it, but I'm doing what I can to avoid getting utterly pissed off by this extremely circular argument. What can I say? I like getting somewhere, and get cranky when I'm not.
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Just for reference purposes, I am watching this thread......
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They've both done things that are wrong, but during my lifetime, all i,ve seen are pictures of israeli teenagers dead, after a "freedom" figher blew themselves up. I doubt the Israeli's will tolerate the lastest attack, they tolerated the others because they sought the cease fire but the terrorists wouldnt listen. Is arafat really in control of his people?
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Arafat is useless. If they canned him, things might actually proceed.
But the Isrealis aren't the only people with dead kids. There are innocent palestinians that got killed as well. Isreali bullets are no more discerning that any one else's.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
They've both done things that are wrong, but during my lifetime, all i,ve seen are pictures of israeli teenagers dead, after a "freedom" figher blew themselves up. I doubt the Israeli's will tolerate the lastest attack, they tolerated the others because they sought the cease fire but the terrorists wouldnt listen. Is arafat really in control of his people?
thats why you shouldnt rely on just the news for the news. It tends to be one sided
and Ivan, I was giving examples. You can twist what I say to make me look ignorant, but whatever. How specifically do you know that there werent 100 million africans on the continent. i dont recall any census being taken. and how do you know that number applied to just africa? what about the slaves in the US? or the caribbean. In Haiti, the average lifespan of a slave was 3 years from the day they stepped of the boat. Either way, I said the ESTIMATES go that high. Never said it was firm
Some people will do or say anything to downplay that part of history
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The simple fact is that Israel and Palestine are at war. Normally a very straight forward affair of killing each other becomes complicated by the laughable state of the Palestinian armed forces. The Palestinians resort to suicide bombings because they lack most other offensive capabilities and as such the conflict is classed as terrorism as opposed to a war. Regardless of fire-power, beliefs, political realtions and ideology, when two countries fight, it's a war.
I'm really becoming concerned at how everyone differentiates between military and civillian targets. If you crush the military then the civillians get called up to fight and die anyway so what's so wrong about firing on civillians? The point of war is to utterly crush the enemy, not take their land and have decades of protests and political *****ing by the conquered people. If someone ****s with you (especially in a democracy) then everyone who serves them becomes a legitimate target regardless of age, creed or beliefs. You think a 90 year old man with arthritis wouldn't blow a soldiers head off to protect his land?
Somewhere, over the years, the point of war was forgotten. It has been gradually fading away since the British decided that standing men in a line and having them shoot at each other (without trying to dodge or hide from enemy fire) was a good batttle tactic. In war there are only two thing you need to remember; Stay alive and kill everyone who ain't fighting with you.
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The problem with that, is that not much is solved..... A war is an argument writ large. If at the end of the day you can both end up agreeing with one another, everyone's happy. Like the allies and germany after WWII.
Now, if we went and massacred every person we could find in Germany, we would be worse than the Nazis and would be setting the stage for the exact same **** that's going down in the middle east.
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If we massacred the Germans after WW1 there wouldn't have been any Nazi's.
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Yeah, and then we would have been the biggest hippocrites and mass-murderers the world had ever seen.
Nazis < killing all of germany
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The only reason that would be considered wrong is because of all this stupid 'Don't kill your enemies' bull ****. Hell, you can't even torture POW's anymore (officially).
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We dont commit genocide or torture for a reason, its inhumane and we at this point in human development in terms of civilization should be above that. The fact that you feel the murdering of innocent civilians as correct due to your view that they are potential enemies is to say the least scary. If you were a farmer just tending your land one day when a few tanks rolled in, how would you like to have your head blown off with the rest of your family just because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time? You have done nothing your whole life to hurt anyone, and all of the sudden you are killed, murdered, because you were living in a country invaded by another. The object of war is not to kill all those who oppose you, but to stop them from opposing you. The best way to do this is to target key military targets: radar stations, airstrips, ammo dumps, stating areas, military bases, naval ports. You simply dont just go around shooting random people just for the heck of it, such is the conduct of a savage, and we are better people than that. As much as i'd like to say that we are above war period, that would clearly be a lie as is proven by the recent events over the past 2 decades in the middle east.
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You simply dont just go around shooting random people just for the heck of it, such is the conduct of a savage, and we are better people than that.
Yeah, we do all this and look how great the world is. :doubt:
Peace does not mean enlightenment.
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The Israeli-Palastinian conflict will not stop in the next 50 years.
The Israelis want the Palestinians all dead or forced off the West Bank area.
The Palestinians want more Israelis dead and all their land back.
Neither of those will happen. The only possible way to stop it immediately is to destroy both governments (as if Palestine has one) and reconstruct them to prevent this from happenning again.
About as much chance of that happening as Sharone calling Arafat and saying, "Lets be friends forever."
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Originally posted by Mr. Vega
Neither of those will happen. The only possible way to stop it immediately is to destroy both governments (as if Palestine has one) and reconstruct them to prevent this from happenning again.
This is excactly the problem. It seems that the only way to end this war was if the Israeli completely crushed the palestinians, sad but true.
And now, I didn't say that I think the Israeli were any more "right" than the palestinians, it just is, that sometimes the only way to end a war, is to fight it to the end.
Unfotunately, because the international opinion, even that is not going to happen, looks like people think it's just better to close our ears and forget about the whole thing.
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I don't think we can just say something like "Those are the good guys, those are the bad guys", life isn't black and white. Terrorism isn't the right way to solve anything, but who excactly is the one to say what is terrorism and what is not?
Exactly; both sides are good and bad. There is no "good side" or "bad side" in the world; there are simply sides. In the end, you just have to pick among them based on other things. (for example, the US is arguably just as much "terrorist" as the Al Qaeda people, so that is of no importance; you must judge by other factors when choosing a side)
You can't grasp concepts that run against your currently ingrained beliefs, and fail to see the logic in any opposing argument.
This is the single worst part of human nature in my opinion. I have seen this everywhere in the world, and it is the by far largest deterrent to scientific and technological progress.
They've both done things that are wrong, but during my lifetime, all i,ve seen are pictures of israeli teenagers dead, after a "freedom" figher blew themselves up. I doubt the Israeli's will tolerate the lastest attack, they tolerated the others because they sought the cease fire but the terrorists wouldnt listen. Is arafat really in control of his people?
Well, the Western world essentially operates the media, and the Jews have a lot of power in those nations (especially the big giant, the US) so they will always be showing the things that make themselves look "right."
I'm not against Israel at all - in fact, as I said earlier, I think Israel should just blast down Palestine with an all-out assault (hehe I am opposed to any religious fanaticism and also any avoidance to new technology) - but you cannot really determine who is good and who is bad here. Personally I think that moral values are simply human conceptions and by-products of early civilization that cannot be objectively applied to anything in the universe, and should therefore be discarded.
Peace does not mean enlightenment.
I quite agree with that. Peace will get us nowhere until the formation of a world government in a few centuries.
The Israelis want the Palestinians all dead or forced off the West Bank area.
The Palestinians want more Israelis dead and all their land back.
Right; each side wants the complete annihilation of the other, and the problem will not be solved until one party has been destroyed.
Unfotunately, because the international opinion, even that is not going to happen, looks like people think it's just better to close our ears and forget about the whole thing.
This is probably the only reason Israel has not yet attacked and conquered all of Palestine. (a very similar case is India and Pakistan) The thing is that the nations involved have to be big players in global politics. When the US was attacked, they didn't ask for anyone's permission to blow up Afghanistan; they just went right in, knowing that nobody would try stop them. At some point, however, I have a feeling that these nations will simply have had enough (maybe in the next 15 years), and would just attack their offenders, screw world opinion. Their enemies do not have sizeable military forces and the outcome of such a conflict is quite obvious. The rest of the world will protest, but they will not do anything beyond that.
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Originally posted by sandwich
:mad2: 15 dead, over 100 wounded (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=146327&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0) :mad:
On Passover Eve....!
God, have mercy! :(
:( :( :(
But remember dude, He does have mercy. There was a purpose to this.
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I hope it's a good one
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...and then they said I write long winded posts, hehe :D
I did not read everything on this thread, I don't have the time and I'm not about to pass on my opinion on the Israel Palestinian conflict, but let me congratulate NegspectahDek for a fun, informative at times, speculative but still accurate resocont of the arab israel story.
His witty and satirish post is to me a good example of how to write without offending either sides, still bringing his point across
and making a long story, fun and informative for everyone.
This to me is quality writing. I wish I could see more of it, here or anywhere also for this matter.
CougEr
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much as i'd like to, i cant claim credit for that, although given the motivation and time, i would have written something similar.
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Well, this is nice and lively! :doubt:
Anyways, a quick update and then on to the responses: the death toll has risen to 20. :(
Originally posted by Stryke 9
The Israeli soldiers have killed MANY more times the number of civilians Palestinians have. They've killed very few "terrorists"
...
If Israeli sodiers are somehow targeting "terrorist" Palestinian freedom fighters and just happen to have such terrible aim that they've killed practically every civilian they've come across, perhaps they shouldn't have guns.
As a knowlegdeable, first-hand source on this point, let me point out that Israeli Army regulations for this current conflict are to shoot to kill at anyone who has the means and will. In other words, rocks don't count, but boulders on the rooftop above you do. So do Molotov cocktails, and of course sidearms. Earlier on in the intifada, there were tons of riots by the Palestinians, and among the rioters would be armed people who began shooting at soldiers. They were hiding behind their women and children, using them as human shields. They knew that Israel would be as "moral" as possible, and would hesitate to shoot back through women and children who were simply participating in a riot. But somewhere along the line Israel had enough, and shot controlled shots - to kill - at armed people in the violent riots, whether the risk of collateral damage be great or not.
That is where the majority of deaths of truly innocent bystanders came in. All those other "civillian" deaths you hear about are the targeted shooting and killing of armed civvies in the act of attacking soldiers.
Originally posted by LtNarol
For the Palistinians (sp), they have been kicked off their homes and sent elsewhere. They want their homes back, and they wont get it through diplomacy as Israel will not give up any of its holdings...
Actually, although I hated the Barak government, he did do at least one thing that I appreciate: he proved to the world - those parts of it who were willing to open their eyes and see, that is - that the PA was not interested in the land, as it claims. He offered something like 95% of the territory beyonf the Green Line, but Arafat refused. Arafat will never get such a deal again.
Originally posted by an0n
The simple fact is that Israel and Palestine are at war. Normally a very straight forward affair of killing each other becomes complicated by the laughable state of the Palestinian armed forces. The Palestinians resort to suicide bombings because they lack most other offensive capabilities and as such the conflict is classed as terrorism as opposed to a war. Regardless of fire-power, beliefs, political realtions and ideology, when two countries fight, it's a war.
Israel and Palestine? What's Palestine? Have they reached statehood without me hearing about it??
No, Israel and the PA are not at war - if they were, I would not be here to write all this, I'd be fighting. The conflict is called an intifada. Also, if Israel was at war, we would have finished with it a long time ago.
Originally posted by an0n
I'm really becoming concerned at how everyone differentiates between military and civillian targets. If you crush the military then the civillians get called up to fight and die anyway so what's so wrong about firing on civillians? The point of war is to utterly crush the enemy, not take their land and have decades of protests and political *****ing by the conquered people.
Firing on civvies is a no-no because those civvies are not armed towards the purpose of defending their country. Soldiers are.
Originally posted by Mr. Vega
The Israelis want the Palestinians all dead or forced off the West Bank area.
The Palestinians want more Israelis dead and all their land back.
Please, don't generalize without at least making it clear that you are generalizing. It's misleading and wrong, for both sides.
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Originally posted by sandwich
Well, this is nice and lively! :doubt:
Anyways, a quick update and then on to the responses: the death toll has risen to 20. :(
I just heard on the news. :(
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this whole thing is actually kinda dodgy- both sides claim they are in the right, but both sides have committed wrongs, and both sides still seem willing to 'defend' their rights....
but what are their rights? land? why exactly do they need more land? they seem to be doing well enough on what they have...
or are their rights just the right to be right?
(sorry if ive accidentally offended someone or said something totally stupid...)
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Originally posted by icespeed
this whole thing is actually kinda dodgy- both sides claim they are in the right, but both sides have committed wrongs, and both sides still seem willing to 'defend' their rights....
but what are their rights? land? why exactly do they need more land? they seem to be doing well enough on what they have...
or are their rights just the right to be right?
(sorry if ive accidentally offended someone or said something totally stupid...)
As hard as it can be to understand for someone as non-religious as me, they are fighting because of their religion. The area they are fighting over, is sacred to the palestinians(and probably the Israeli too, not sure about this?), and some of them are fanatic. If you think about it, religion is the single biggest killer in human history.
And Sandwich: sure, all of your points are good, but remember that in this forum, we can only hear the opinions of Israeli people, not palestinian, and I'm not willing to think of the palestinians as the cause of all this trouble no matter what you say.
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Originally posted by NegspectahDek
thats why you shouldnt rely on just the news for the news. It tends to be one sided
1.and Ivan, I was giving examples. You can twist what I say to make me look ignorant, but whatever.
2. How specifically do you know that there werent 100 million africans on the continent. i dont recall any census being taken. and how do you know that number applied to just africa? what about the slaves in the US? or the caribbean. In Haiti, the average lifespan of a slave was 3 years from the day they stepped of the boat. Either way, I said the ESTIMATES go that high. Never said it was firm
3. Some people will do or say anything to downplay that part of history
1. sent a PM
2. because during that period there were only about half a billion people on the entire world, and most of them lived an Asia (China, India). Even if there lived so many africans in Africa, a 100 million shipped to the new world? By that number there shouldn't have been a living soul in Africa left.
3. I'm not downplaying that part of history. I just don't like it when people overplay that part of history.
Okay, back to the normal discussion before we start to kill each other
:headz:
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This discussion is another one that will go on forever. No more point arguing over this, better close it before it turns into a flame war...
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i think we've been rather civilized so far. As for holyness, Jerusalem (sp) is a holy city in 3 major religions. I forgot why, but i can remember that much. The leaders down there tend to be a bit stuborn or paranoid, a good example was a dispute over a place in Jerusalem (sp). One side has a mosque there, the other wants to put a temple there, for the simple reason that the temple once stood there and the mosque (i think) was supposed to be built at the one place and no where else. They refuse to let archeologists in to determine exact location of the foundation stone of the original temple (where the new one must be built). There is a very good chance that there is room for both, but they just wont let the archeologists in.
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All you have to do is look as far as the nodewars story.
We're only EMULATING "national" level govornments, albeit on a planetary scale and even then they manage to do stupid things.
The best way to think about govornments and nation-states is the way you think about particularly evil little 6 year olds.
Unfortunately, the turds float to the top and assume all the control which is where it goes wrong. In machines this big the individual has absolutely no control over policy, all you can do is refuse to be part of the collective, IE, renounce your citizenship.
Drastic, but true. Im starting to feel the pros of such a move outway the cons.
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I hate to say this, but I have a feeling that the Palestineans will get their hands on some russian/chinese nuke and detonate it. It's defintely going in that direction.
{sarcasm}
On second thought.. maybe turning the Mid-East into a glass parking lot isn't such a bad idea. At least they'll shut up.
{/sarcasm}
good idea pera..
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Originally posted by PhReAk
I hate to say this, but I have a feeling that the Palestineans will get their hands on some russian/chinese nuke and detonate it. It's defintely going in that direction.
On second thought.. maybe turning the Mid-East into a glass parking lot isn't such a bad idea. At least they'll shut up.
Because someone is going to get pissed by this message, I should probably add a sarcasm warning right here.
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Originally posted by PhReAk
I hate to say this, but I have a feeling that the Palestineans will get their hands on some russian/chinese nuke and detonate it. It's defintely going in that direction.
yeah so? If they make one of those stary nukes go boom inside Israel, you honestly don't believe there will be one Palestinian left alive inside Palestine proper.
Making one of those things go boom is a certain death warrant.
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The bad thing is, it's not like they care all that much about being alive anyway... :p
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Yeah, their religion dictates that death isn't all that bad, so it doesn't mean anything to them. I think they will die out anyway sometime over the next twenty years if they continue with these little suicide strikes that are insignificant in themselves, but serve to annoy the nation when repeated over a period of time.
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Originally posted by Styxx
The bad thing is, it's not like they care all that much about being alive anyway... :p
*scratches head*
didn't thhink of that... renders my point moot. :p
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Originally posted by LtNarol
i think we've been rather civilized so far. As for holyness, Jerusalem (sp) is a holy city in 3 major religions. I forgot why, but i can remember that much. The leaders down there tend to be a bit stuborn or paranoid, a good example was a dispute over a place in Jerusalem (sp). One side has a mosque there, the other wants to put a temple there, for the simple reason that the temple once stood there and the mosque (i think) was supposed to be built at the one place and no where else. They refuse to let archeologists in to determine exact location of the foundation stone of the original temple (where the new one must be built). There is a very good chance that there is room for both, but they just wont let the archeologists in.
The Muslims built a mosque over the Holy Temple, Jesus was indeed correct when he stated that in the future hardly a single stone would be left standing. Only one wall of the temple still stands.