Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Killer Whale on June 08, 2009, 05:44:26 am
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I was asking a few people what they though the shivans were doing (as nobody's heard of FS I just explained saying "aliens") with the supernova and my friend said that it sounds like the GTVA set a trap for the shivan fleet. Is that in the least bit likely, because it sounds really cool. The shivan juggernaut armada in one spot conveniently sitting around the sun and it blows up causing most to retreat and many to be destroyed.
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Well, the Shivans were obviously doing something to the sun, so I'd still believe that the Shivans were responsible for blowing up the sun, accidentally or deliberately. And there is no canon info to support the claim that the GTVA could cause a supernova.
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Why would the Sathanas fleet gather round the sun, and how would the GTVA know that they would do this?
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I was asking a few people what they though the shivans were doing (as nobody's heard of FS I just explained saying "aliens") with the supernova and my friend said that it sounds like the GTVA set a trap for the shivan fleet. Is that in the least bit likely, because it sounds really cool. The shivan juggernaut armada in one spot conveniently sitting around the sun and it blows up causing most to retreat and many to be destroyed.
The GTVA had nothing to do with the sun, had no forces near the sun, had no way of making a star turn supernova in the first place and also was quite surprised as the star did go supernova.
The Shivans on the other hand are clearly shown to "do" something to the sun (some kind of energy emission from the sathani is clearly visible) before it goes nova and most of them warp out.
That is what we were told by the actual plot and what has become canon.
Course it would be always possible that the main story of FS2 was never presented to the player and some crazy task force used boshs etak tech to tell the Shivans "Go die Bia***es" ... and they did!... just as it is possible that "God dun it" and made the Shivans kill themselves just as it possible that it matter of fact was his holyness the Flying Spagetthi monsters that had his tentacles involved in dragging the Shivan fleet to the sun and overloading all of their weapons (sadly some of them could escape), just as it is possible that the Shivans faced an immidiate midlife crisis with fatal results for some of them, just as it is possible that they are all really related to Michael Bay (BOaa we can make stuff splode! COOL!) ... it's just as possible that we observed the beginning of a new Shivan year and they blow up stuff for no reason every year while sipping champaign (firework accidents are a b****) ... just like it is possible that people actually like speculation about unsupported sillyness (It's true! :grins:) in the complete absence of even a hint of anything like this happening in the actual plot. eh... and alpha1 is really an angel ;)
In other words: Either you didn't explain the ending good enough or your friend wasn't listening ;)
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In other words: Either you didn't explain the ending good enough or your friend wasn't listening ;)
This methinks.
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Personally I am intrigued and think it possible what Adm. Petrarch said in the final cutscene; they could have done it in order to link to a different universe, perhaps the universe they are from. But who knows. There just simply isn't enough to go on.
Maybe we could all petition Volition to make FS3 instead of games like The Punisher... (not)
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Personally I am intrigued and think it possible what Adm. Petrarch said in the final cutscene; they could have done it in order to link to a different universe, perhaps the universe they are from. But who knows. There just simply isn't enough to go on.
Maybe we could all petition Volition to make FS3 instead of games like The Punisher... (not)
Wouldn't it be enough to have them release the planned storyline, assuming they at least made a draft?
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All we know is that FS3 would have featured ships big enough to affect the entire playing field like planets, and that the Shivans would have been a symptom of a much bigger problem.
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I think that was just a 'hook' :v: gave us to keep people interested (particularly the 'symptom' part). Game writing doesn't work that way... they don't plan it so far in advance.
I mean, consider how much FS1 evolved during the course of its development. Are we going to kid ourselves that they had the story of FS2 ready to go by the release date of FS1? Or that by the release of FS1 or Silent Threat, did :v: had any plans whatsoever for FS3? Probably not. And even if they had some idea what they were going to do in FS3, I don't think we can really read that into what :v: said about it.
Of course, I could be wrong...
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snip
Agreed. I wanted to write that but I'm too lazy. The story for FS3 never existed.:(
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It's unfortunate that FS2 didn't do so hot. That's very odd considering the community following that it still has. I can think of few games that have such a strong, vibrant community. I don't really mind that there is no FS3 but I would like some questions answered. Oh well.
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I always thought they were making a nebula
But then again I'm an idiot
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The Shivan-homeworld theory is the most plausible in retrospect. Even with a fleet of 80 Sathanas juggernauts, the Shivans made a decision not to mindless swarm and destroy the human and Vasudan populations across the GTVA. In fact, the situation with the GTVA was very contained (about 3 systems IIRC) which was very different compared to the events of FS1.
The Shivans would have a higher motive in mind, coupled with the appearance of subspace warps appearing in the cutscene, it is likely that the homeworld theory is true.
And yes, the GTVA don't really have the capabilities to trigger off a supernova or else the NTF Rebellion might have gone more differently. ;)
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All we know is that FS3 would have featured ships big enough to affect the entire playing field like planets, and that the Shivans would have been a symptom of a much bigger problem.
I know about the symptom part, but where did you take that statement about massive ships from? It's the first time I read something like that.
I mean, consider how much FS1 evolved during the course of its development. Are we going to kid ourselves that they had the story of FS2 ready to go by the release date of FS1? Or that by the release of FS1 or Silent Threat, did :v: had any plans whatsoever for FS3? Probably not. And even if they had some idea what they were going to do in FS3, I don't think we can really read that into what :v: said about it.
Of course, I could be wrong...
Well, as far I know :v: people were pretty sure that they would have worked on FS3 as soon as FS2 got released. Please note that FS1 turned out to be a successful game, so they kind of expected to create a third game of the series. That didn't happen because of Interplay.
I hard believe they had no plans for FS3 - considering how FS2 ended, they might have already planned something well before the ultimation of FS2. There are notable differences between the final parts of FS1 and FS2: the first one somewhat implied that FS2 would have taken place several years after FS1 (plans not defined), while the second suggested something far "closer/immediate", if you get what I mean (plans partially defined). The Lucifer's movements can be easily explained while the Sathanas fleet's ones can't. Some kind of explanation is lurking somewhere.
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...And yes, the GTVA don't really have the capabilities to trigger off a supernova or else the NTF Rebellion might have gone more differently. ;)
A supernova wouldn't be a thing you'd do all the time, if it likely means you, your race, and another race to boot is going down the gurgler you might try all you could to try and stop them
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I was asking a few people what they though the shivans were doing (as nobody's heard of FS I just explained saying "aliens") with the supernova and my friend said that it sounds like the GTVA set a trap for the shivan fleet. Is that in the least bit likely, because it sounds really cool. The shivan juggernaut armada in one spot conveniently sitting around the sun and it blows up causing most to retreat and many to be destroyed.
In a very, very roundabout way, yes.
What if the mission "Their Finest Hour" is, indeed, the finest hour of the GTVA? But not for the reasons you think.
There was something Shivans needed aboard those cargo ships. Parts, fuel, qualified personnel, something. Alpha 1 destroyed it.
It would explain the heavy commitment of badly-needed fleet resources, including the Colossus, to an operation that is almost certainly going to trigger heavy Shivan response and could easily result in the loss of the entire attacking force. The GTVA was making a desperate bid to avoid the supernova. In the event, they failed...but they also forced the Shivans to go ahead with what they had on hand, and some of the juggernauts don't make it.
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I find it weird that the mission name "Their Finest Hour" may actually be in regards to the three Shivan freighters destroyed by the Blue Lions. :doubt:
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Personally I am intrigued and think it possible what Adm. Petrarch said in the final cutscene; they could have done it in order to link to a different universe, perhaps the universe they are from. But who knows. There just simply isn't enough to go on.
Maybe we could all petition Volition to make FS3 instead of games like The Punisher... (not)
Wouldn't it be enough to have them release the planned storyline, assuming they at least made a draft?
You're assuming there was a planned storyline which aside from a few notes there is most likely not. (I asked Jason Scott in person :))
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"Their Finest Hour" is actually a reference to a Winston Churchill quote during the darker days of WWII, referring to the Germany's conquest of France IIRC. Vaguely applied to the situation, it makes more sense for the title to be a reference to the Shivans destroying the Colossus, making it "Their" finest hour.
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I always thought they were making a nebula
But then again I'm an idiot
that is probably the most sound theory so far
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;-)
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No, the nebula is the outcome of the supernova. It doesn't make sense for the purpose of them making stars go supernova is just to make a huge cloud (nebula). If they need energy, they only need one nebula, but they probably get the majority of their energy from subspace. They may not even use fusion reactors. They aren't anything like Terrans or Vasudans. What we call their fighters may not be fighters, for example, though they behave like fighters.
Don't they have gas miners too?
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;-)
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But I said they don't need more than one nebula for fuel and I said they may get most of their energy from subspace. I never said they get "all" their energy from subspace. Did you miss that part?
I did, but what are you basing this off of? Are you aware of their fuel requirements?
How do you know they don't make a new nebula as a new place for more Shivans?
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;-)
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Well they have miners so they clearly use the stuff in nebulas for something (I'm gonna guess unknown number of Sathanas Juggernauts they have and whatever other large ships they have)
Maybe they don't (or can't) harvest minerals from planetary bodies so they make everything supernove and get stuff that way. I dunno. It just seemed like the best theory to me.
It clearly wasn't used as an offensive weapon, so it had to be something else.
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;-)
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"Their Finest Hour" is actually a reference to a Winston Churchill quote during the darker days of WWII, referring to the Germany's conquest of France IIRC. Vaguely applied to the situation, it makes more sense for the title to be a reference to the Shivans destroying the Colossus, making it "Their" finest hour.
I don't (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_was_their_finest_hour) think that's correct.
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Their finest hour... The decision of the crew of Colossus to selfsacrifice themselves to buy just a little more time for the refugees to escape and for the node crashes to succeed in cutting of the system. The finest hour of the crew of the Colossus (and possibly of GTVA fleet). So i have always understood it.
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I find it weird that the mission name "Their Finest Hour" may actually be in regards to the three Shivan freighters destroyed by the Blue Lions. :doubt:
The small things frequently count.
For example (and relevant to the original quote), it was a raid of roughly 30 RAF bombers on Berlin that actually won the Battle of Britain by causing Germany to switch from attacking RAF airfields to bombing cities. That switch saved No. 11 Group as a viable entity; it was on the verge of collapse. The term you hear today is "combat loss grouping".
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Does that sound silly? It surely doesn't sound mysterious or interesting or a good plot device. No game out there would make such a boring motive for an enemy.
What's a better answer then? They flew to the sun like moths to a flame? They spent a ton of Juggernauts to clean out 1 system after we were already in full retreat?
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I my interpretation of Their Finest Hour is the same with Scotty's. By destroying the Colossus, the Shivans have obtained their greatest victory over the GTVA - their most powerful ship and the symbol of the GTVA.
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I would have thought that sterilizing Vasuda Prime was their greatest victory.
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I seriously doubt taking out the big C counts as the Shivans finest hour.
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;-)
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What's a better answer then? They flew to the sun like moths to a flame? They spent a ton of Juggernauts to clean out 1 system after we were already in full retreat?
Read about all the other theories that have been mentioned before, even in the last month. You can read the Shivan manifesto too.
Those aren't really better answers, just other ones.
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I seriously doubt taking out the big C counts as the Shivans finest hour.
Why not? It is, only in the context of the Second Shivan Incursion I mean. Compared to annihilating an entire race, it is nothing then of course.
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Taking the bait so they can't stop a node from being collapsed? Beating up what was essentially a crippled ship with 1 Sathanas when they had dozens around?
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;-)
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I my interpretation of Their Finest Hour is the same with Scotty's. By destroying the Colossus, the Shivans have obtained their greatest victory over the GTVA - their most powerful ship and the symbol of the GTVA.
Their greatest victory over the GTVA in the second incursion was forcing the evacuation of Capella with the first Sathanas. The logistical strain of this would do far more damage to the GTVA's war effort than destroying the Colossus.
Or, if you prefer, their greatest victory was forcing the GTVA to adopt the plan abandon Capella and collapse the nodes, destroying infrastructure work that goes back to since whenever the system was colonized (before the Great War, at the least). This also does vastly more damage to the GTVA's ability to make war than does destroying the Colossus.
Either way, killing the Colossus is nowhere near the greatest achievement of the Shivans.
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True.
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To me, making sure the nodes collapse would be their finest hour. It would hypothetically be the means of saving humanity.
Almost the entire war was one giant ass kicking. Every time they would blow up a ship they would see more, bigger ships behind it.
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I've always thought it was the Colossus' finest hour. Sacrificing itself to allow the Bastion safe passage to... sacrifice itself. It all makes sense, somehow.
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I've always thought it was the Colossus' finest hour. Sacrificing itself to allow the Bastion safe passage to... sacrifice itself. It all makes sense, somehow.
So did I, but some people think that it's the Shivans' finest hour because they destroyed the GTVA's greatest fleet asset.
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It's not really my finest hour when I knock over the biggest 6th grader.
They had more than enough firepower to drop it.
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I always thought it referred to the crew of the Colossus, and them buying time to seal the nodes and save the GTVA from another Shivan incursion.
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;-)
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But I said they don't need more than one nebula for fuel and I said they may get most of their energy from subspace. I never said they get "all" their energy from subspace. Did you miss that part? They could also use gas giants like the GTVA does, though they may have had gas miners there since it was convenient for their destination. I'm sure their exploding of Capella is more than just to make fuel. That would be a lame story if that was the sole purpose.
In World War II, two of the best commanders were in Africa because they needed the oil in the area...Fuel, food and water is an important part of any war machine...
and maybe the "bigger" problem is that the universe is running out of fuel, and the side effect is the shivans blowing stuff up to get more fuel (for one reason or another they need it)...sounds like an idea for a campaign...
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That would make a great political satire campaign
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That would make a great political satire campaign
Sounds like a chance to fuse Dr. Strangelove and the Shivans. But in a way that sounds less painfull :ick:
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Mein Admiral, I can jump!
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Methinks their finest hour refers to the GTVA effort to stall..altough the way it is carried out (Colossuss) leaves a lot to be desired.
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This is going two ways:
- 1. For the Terrans, their finest hour was sacrificing themselves to get the Bastion through to the jump node safely.
- 2. For the Shivans, they've decimated the Colossus. And possibly, been happy about the Terrans collapsing the jump node (Shivan Manifesto theory)
But I said they don't need more than one nebula for fuel and I said they may get most of their energy from subspace. I never said they get "all" their energy from subspace. Did you miss that part? They could also use gas giants like the GTVA does, though they may have had gas miners there since it was convenient for their destination. I'm sure their exploding of Capella is more than just to make fuel. That would be a lame story if that was the sole purpose.
Who knows? Maybe they did make it go supernova for fuel sources.
Another theory on this is, of course (sigh), the Shivan Manifesto theory. They used the gravitational field from the collapsing sun to create a giant portal to another system (Universe maybe? Whatever physics would be involved).
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Maybe another galaxy.
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My theory on why the Capella Star blew up is this:
The Shivans, having spent nearly three days pumping some kind of subspace field around the star, were powering up a weapon as Petrarch suggested. It could have been many things, but I believe the Shivans were simply sick and tired of interference by the GTVA. This subspace field rippling from the star could have been anything, and I do not have suggestions as to what its intent was, but it surely didn't mean good times for the GTVA . I surmise the Capella Incident was a calculation error on the part of the Shivans, because of the destruction of the Epsilon Pegasi node minutes before. Had the node not been collapsed by the Bastion, it is very possible - as the Shivans were playing around with subspace around that star - that their plan would have worked, and the consequences might have been much more catastrophic.
I mean...why the hell would the Shivans have been so persistent in taking out the Bastion otherwise? Yeah it's a Terran destroyer with escort, but it was escaping the main battle, so it shouldn't have drawn that much attention, but even with the Colossus fighting at the Gamma Drac node, to quote Petrarch "the battle group protecting the Bastion has been decimated" The Shivans most likely knew that the Bastion carried Meson warheads and deducted they wanted to repeat history by destoying a large ship inside a node to collapse it, therefore ruining their own plans and risking failure of whatever they were doing with Capella.
The Outro shows the Shivan juggernaughts closing in on the star and creating some weird subspace field, which might have been simply to DELAY the unintended destruction of Capella while most of them fled to God knows where.
At least that's what I think.
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My theory on why the Capella Star blew up is this:
The Shivans, having spent nearly three days pumping some kind of subspace field around the star, were powering up a weapon as Petrarch suggested. It could have been many things, but I believe the Shivans were simply sick and tired of interference by the GTVA. This subspace field rippling from the star could have been anything, and I do not have suggestions as to what its intent was, but it surely didn't mean good times for the GTVA . I surmise the Capella Incident was a calculation error on the part of the Shivans, because of the destruction of the Epsilon Pegasi node minutes before. Had the node not been collapsed by the Bastion, it is very possible - as the Shivans were playing around with subspace around that star - that their plan would have worked, and the consequences might have been much more catastrophic.
I mean...why the hell would the Shivans have been so persistent in taking out the Bastion otherwise? Yeah it's a Terran destroyer with escort, but it was escaping the main battle, so it shouldn't have drawn that much attention, but even with the Colossus fighting at the Gamma Drac node, to quote Petrarch "the battle group protecting the Bastion has been decimated" The Shivans most likely knew that the Bastion carried Meson warheads and deducted they wanted to repeat history by destoying a large ship inside a node to collapse it, therefore ruining their own plans and risking failure of whatever they were doing with Capella.
The Outro shows the Shivan juggernaughts closing in on the star and creating some weird subspace field, which might have been simply to DELAY the unintended destruction of Capella while most of them fled to God knows where.
At least that's what I think.
If they were so intent on destroying the Bastion, they would've sortied a Ravana or Sathanas to chew through it.
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If they were so intent on destroying the Bastion, they would've sortied a Ravana or Sathanas to chew through it.
Who says they haven't?(sortied a ravana, at least, maybe not a sath...) All the 70th blue lions saw of this funfest was the last 10 minutes. It's highly probable the Bastion's escort consisted of a bunch of Deimos, maybe sobeks, etc. All that was left of a "decimated" force was THREE aeolus cruisers, which is indicative on one hell of a large fleet protecting the bastion that got wasted prior to the arrival of the Blue Lions.
Also the shivans might have had logistics issues after taking out the Colossus. It's highly probable the Sath that destroyed it was unable to jump out yet and could not take out the bastion, and other forces were busy elsewhere (especially around the star...). We do not know simply because we lack facts, but given that the bastion fleet was annihilated I believe a serious assault with capships ended not long before the Blue Lions show up.