Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: Woolie Wool on July 05, 2009, 04:18:00 pm
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Is there any reason why you used all those beautiful reskins of StratComm's fleet ships for Blue Planet but elected to add only two new GTVA fighters, one of which (the Kulas) isn't even a very good model by today's standards (It was good when it was made, but that was a long time ago) and very underpowered compared to the others? There are many much better Terran and Vasudan fighter models that have barely been used and some textures for older models like the Ezechiel and Khepri that really breathe new life into them. I'd really like to see, for instance, a version of Jadehawk's modified Ezechiel with the gun and missile points switched around to yield four guns and two missile banks as a replacement for the Myrmidon or Kulas. It's not fair that the Earthers should hog all the cool new ships.
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Hey, that's not an awful idea. Darius, while you're on your modpack rampage, you want to take a look at that?
Woolie Wool, as for why it didn't happen back then: remember, AoA was a one-man job and War in Heaven isn't much different. We have to be pretty careful of feature creep or the darn thing will never come out.
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Besides, if we take FS2 and FS1 as examples, new fighter classes were gradually introduced during the actual campaigns, that is, during a time with ongoing, long term conflicts.
In Blue Planet, the GTVA seemed to have concentrated on the big ships of the fleet (Remember that new capital ship classes were comparatively rare in FS2, great war era ships were pretty much standard except for frontline units), presumably to build a fleet mix capable of defeating a third Shivan incursion. New fighter classes were probably deemed less important, since the ships introduced during the second incursion seemed more than capable of dealing with their Shivan equivalents. New fighter weapons, however, are a different thing (I'm looking at you, Balor!). I would rather see more highly developed weapons than new fighters.
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New fighter classes were probably deemed less important, since the ships introduced during the second incursion seemed more than capable of dealing with their Shivan equivalents. New fighter weapons, however, are a different thing (I'm looking at you, Balor!). I would rather see more highly developed weapons than new fighters.
And thus sanity and storytelling prevail over "Ooooh Shiney".
\o/
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I still don't think it'd be a bad idea to get a ship like the Ezechiel. More pretty ships to shoot at, at the very least.
Darius' call, though!
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I think that Valkyrie Mk2 would also be an intresting idea for advanced GTVA interceptor.
And maybe Rhea for a light bomber.
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New fighter classes were probably deemed less important, since the ships introduced during the second incursion seemed more than capable of dealing with their Shivan equivalents. New fighter weapons, however, are a different thing (I'm looking at you, Balor!). I would rather see more highly developed weapons than new fighters.
And thus sanity and storytelling prevail over "Ooooh Shiney".
\o/
Huh? You do realize that capital ships are a much larger investment of resources than fighters, and thus are replaced far less often? In the time it takes for a single generation of capital ships (the newer FS2 ships, in this case) to finish their service life, one would expect to see two or three new generations of fighters. It doesn't make sense to overhaul capships while neglecting fighters. Never mind that Terran fighters from FS2 are only capable of dealing with Shivan fighters if Alpha 1 is flying them. So any advancement in capital ship design should be accompanied by an even larger advancement in fighter design (and this is borne out in FS2 itself, where many of the old capital ship designs are still in deployment because you can't just scrap 20 two-kilometer warships every couple decades like you can with old starfighters.
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Check out the 'media' section under the BP website.
I'd love to see more advanced fighters in Blue Planet but as it stands the relative lack of advancement has some decent explanations.
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Huh? You do realize that capital ships are a much larger investment of resources than fighters, and thus are replaced far less often? In the time it takes for a single generation of capital ships (the newer FS2 ships, in this case) to finish their service life, one would expect to see two or three new generations of fighters. It doesn't make sense to overhaul capships while neglecting fighters. Never mind that Terran fighters from FS2 are only capable of dealing with Shivan fighters if Alpha 1 is flying them. So any advancement in capital ship design should be accompanied by an even larger advancement in fighter design (and this is borne out in FS2 itself, where many of the old capital ship designs are still in deployment because you can't just scrap 20 two-kilometer warships every couple decades like you can with old starfighters.
And yet, this is all terribly wrong apparently. I could make the parallel to reality, where the Tomcat outlived the Kittyhawk class, or other situations like the Crusader outliving the Foch (by far, considering when the Crusader entered service).
Or I could simply point out that you have in no way challenged The E's point or his assertions, since you're blatantly wrong and that's an issue to do with the fact Shivan fighters have artificially inflated AI class over GTVA fighters to let them pose some kind of threat to a player. By specifications the Shivans have fallen far behind in fighter design by FS2. The unsqueaky wheel does not need grease.
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So, ironically, Shivan pilots are actually better than GTVA pilots in canon? Ha! That's not something that comes up often in fan theories.
Cool.
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So hypothetically, if the Shivans had better designed fighters, coupled with their innately better piloting, the GTVA wouldn't stand a chance.
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It is as The_E postulates. As presented in FS2, the main problems Galactic Terran forces found and identified during the Second Shivan Incursion was a lack of a counter to Shivan warships and their heavy beams, and heavy losses from pilots who were quickly overwhelmed by swarming tactics. The first problem was addressed by the development of next-generation beam tech, and the construction of high-powered ships to carry these weapons. Of course, these vessels are rare, and the great majority of the fleet still retains their Capella-era assets. The second problem was managed by the prioritising of production of cheaper, medium-performance vessels and the commissioning of older previously-civilian designs to bring up the numbers. Thus (as you'll find out later) the heavy use of the Myrmidon and Kulas by regular GTVA units.
AoA is probably not the best indication of post-Capella GTVA military, since you're part of an elite force who by the nature of their operations are supposed to have the best tech available.
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Plus, there's only so much you can "advance" fighter tech without starting to unbalance the game. Although it may sound fun to have everyone flying 12-gun ships at a cruising speed of 140, the game mechanics would start to break down...
Besides, it's tough to improve on the Perseus. :D
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Besides, it's tough to improve on the Perseus. :D
They did. It's called the Valkyrie. But that's an argument for another thread. :p
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Plus, there's only so much you can "advance" fighter tech without starting to unbalance the game. Although it may sound fun to have everyone flying 12-gun ships at a cruising speed of 140, the game mechanics would start to break down...
Besides, it's tough to improve on the Perseus. :D
Uh, there's a difference between advancing technology and "GTF Keres". The new fighters could just be a bit tougher, a bit faster, and they certainly don't need 12 gun mounts. If you need that many guns, your guns aren't good enough.
As for game mechanics breaking down, BTRL and my own Starforce mod (especially BTRL) demonstrate that they won't, even at speeds much higher than what I envision for a post-Capella fighter force (60-70 for heavy fighters, 70-80 for medium fighters, 90-100 for interceptors). As technology marches on, the tactics and nature of fighter combat may change, but it has been constantly changing ever since its inception in the 1910s.
By specifications the Shivans have fallen far behind in fighter design by FS2.
Except they haven't. The GTVA has absolutely nothing that rivals the Mara, Dragon, Nahema, or Nephilim. Even the Basilisk is a lot faster and more agile than the Herc II. The problem is their weapons are artificially nerfed to do less damage to the player, much like the Prometheus R, which, if it were as utterly awful as it is in game mechanics, would not be in service because it would simply not be adequate enough. Always prioritize flavor text and fluff over game mechanics. Game mechanics are designed to provide an interesting gameplay experience, not to accurately reflect the universe. Everything in FS2's storyline indicates that the Shivans have much better technology than the GTVA, despite Petrarch's initial overconfidence, which the Ravana quickly corrected by blowing away several warships, including at least one destroyer. Frankly, I think the human race only continues to exist in FreeSpace because the Shivans can't be bothered to try hard enough. Even when they had the Sathanas fleet, their attacks on GTVA assets seemed more about keeping the GTVA away from their juggernauts while they played with the Capella star than any sort of serious assault. They destroyed the Colossus because it had proven itself a danger to their juggernauts, but otherwise their attacks were mostly just harassment.
AoA is probably not the best indication of post-Capella GTVA military, since you're part of an elite force who by the nature of their operations are supposed to have the best tech available.
That will make it more sensible, so it's not like "hey guys we just renovated our whole capital ship fleet...and nothing else!".
Although I still don't get the Kulas. It's not very fast, it's not very agile, it's not very tough, it doesn't have a large missile capacity, and it doesn't have good afterburners. It is bad at everything and good at nothing. Even if they really wanted to go cheap, they could build Ulysses, or Hercs, or some other fighter that is at least decent at something.
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It'd be awesome if we got the Ezechiel, since it's a beautiful ship. But the post-Capella economic collapse and the Sol gate project (never mind the push for advanced warships with numerous, cheap fighter cover) really have been hard on Terran coffers. Who knows if R&D on such an advanced prototype will pan out? :p
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No mistake the the Ezechiel is a beautiful ship, it's just that it doesn't really fit the "GTVA look" that Blue Planet portrays with it's colouring. If the Ezechiel gets a re-skin it'd be perfect IMO.
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(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff348/tankermottind/screen0333.png?t=1246858247)
You were saying?
Jadehawk truly is a god among men.
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Can we has it?
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:eek2:
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OK, this zip has two versions of the Ezechiel, a four-gun version (which is tabled with the name GTF Eos), and the original eight-gun layout. The Eos version is an advanced space superiority fighter, more potent than the Perseus or Myrmidon but not overwhelming by any means, behaving a lot like a much more advanced Apollo. The table entry comes from my mod "The Third War" (working title, not final) that is set in 2393 (and like Blue Planet, follows a story of a war between the GTVA and Earth, although it takes a very different path from either Blue Planet's or Inferno's storylines), and I edited the tech description so it references United Earth and the UEF Uhian as a rival design rather than the Sol Republic and the SRF Benkei and replaced the Third War weapons with Blue Planet ones. The eight-gun Ezechiel has the original tables, which I think are very overpowered and will require adjustment.
Give Jadehawk credit for the skin.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/88wpic
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I initially wasn't going to include the Ezechiel in the modpack, but you've just won me over with that picture :)
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If BP uses the original 8-gun layout in coordination with the Balor autocannon, the UE is in for a long struggle.
The GTVA are the ones to fly the Ezechiel right? :nervous:
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LOL thank god this campaign isn't making money, Blizzard and GPG would have your asses for lunch XD
Terran destroyer which is basically a 3d, 3km long flying Vulture, head ani from SupCom, a background image from the UEF Intro, the term UEF being used...
Not that I'm complaining. The "Raynor" (another reference!) class looks cool XD
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Darius didn't name the Raynor.
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The Raynor's quite old, it was a community collaboration. And it's not ripping off of SupCom, it's using Greek/Egyptian mythology. Except for the blatant main hall.
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And the .anis.
But we're happy to tip the hat now and again. Rheza Station, anyone?
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How about the fact that the wingmen in AoA are named Corey and Taylor (Jeez, Darius, you make such awesome music but you listen to Slipknot?! Ewww...). Or the fact that Samuel Bei's mother is named Mei Ling? (I'm tempted to say you should've added an MGS in-joke where Samuel starts repeating things his mother says to him as questions, but that would wreck the drama). :lol:
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You got on the first transport out of Capella?
Metal...Gear?
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The Raynor's quite old, it was a community collaboration. And it's not ripping off of SupCom, it's using Greek/Egyptian mythology. Except for the blatant main hall.
wasn't aware, but still, the SupCom references abound, as i mentionned, the background page, head anis and the UEF being mentionned now XD
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Okay, since people on IRC are getting pissed at you, a mild clarification:
These are what we call 'tips of the hat'. They do not 'abound', there are at most two of them (the .anis/background and the name), but even so the name is not really much different from United Earth, United Federation of Planets, Earth Federation, Earth Alliance, etcetera.
BP and Supreme Commander share nothing in common. All that said, Darius clearly likes Supreme Commander. :p It's good-natured referencing, not ripoff or derivation.
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Okay, since people on IRC are getting pissed at you, a mild clarification:
These are what we call 'tips of the hat'. They do not 'abound', there are at most two of them (the .anis/background and the name), but even so the name is not really much different from United Earth, United Federation of Planets, Earth Federation, Earth Alliance, etcetera.
BP and Supreme Commander share nothing in common. All that said, Darius clearly likes Supreme Commander. :p It's good-natured referencing, not ripoff or derivation.
To the thinskins on the IRC channel: Grow up. I was not criticizing the Campaign, only underscoring the copyrighted material shown in it. Blue Planet is a very entertaining campaign, the story is very good and the big ships rock.
The fact that SupCom was used to inspire some elements of the campaign doesn't bother me at all. I did the same thing in my old writing projects (I write original stories mostly for fun) when I began, and only recently did I consider myself talented enough to remove any copyrighted material to my texts.
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I wasn't criticizing you in particular, just the whole horde of people doing so too. Someone even did it in an inflammatory way a while back, forget who.
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I wasn't criticizing you in particular, just the whole horde of people doing so too. Someone even did it in an inflammatory way a while back, forget who.
Maybe so, but Batttuta clearly said the IRC chan population is getting pissed at me ;)
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Nah, Snail was just worried it actually was a ripoff. :p
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Just a quick comment: the Ezekiel's texturing looks a lot closer to the "Lao Tze" (at least as far as color scheme), and the name doesn't seem very GTVA-suitable either.
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We can always rename it.
The UEF has plenty of cool ships. There has to be fun stuff to shoot at, too.
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How are you going to justify the Ezekiel's (and Diomedes') non-presence in AoA?
The name Age of Aquarius seems so unfitting now that we know it's going to be a trilogy...
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Well, I'll defer to Darius here, but I'm gonna say it's because the 14th Battlegroup was a specialized, elite task force composed of assets deemed mission-critical but possibly expendable. They had to strike a balance between 'our very best' and 'what we can count on', not to mention 'what we can afford to lose if it all goes bottoms-up.'
Not all that difficult, and certainly no stretch of the imagination.
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The Raynor's quite old, it was a community collaboration. And it's not ripping off of SupCom, it's using Greek/Egyptian mythology. Except for the blatant main hall.
In fact, it's on the very first page of the Celebration of FreeSpace thread. ;)
I also recall Battuta saying that this (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTVB_Chnubis) will be in WiH as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, Battuta. :nervous:
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If the Ezechiel gets a re-skin it'd be perfect IMO.
Ezechiel ... re-skin
:nervous:
:drevil:
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I also recall Battuta saying that this (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTVB_Chnubis) will be in WiH as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, Battuta. :nervous:
I'm not Batutta, but I can tell you that the Chunbis (actually named Chnuphis) will indeed be in WiH, but it will not be GTVB, GTB or UEB. :)
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Shh! Don't tell them how much we upscaled the model!
The GUETVDn Chnoobis must remain a secret!
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That's gonna be one huge pilot...
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A perfect complement to balance out the tiny cockpit on the resized MiG.
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It's not tiny. The Lao Tze uses advanced sensory shunts to feed information directly to the pilot via neural implants (as you can see in the FS2 intro, implants are well-grounded in canon.) Besides, given how huge most FS2 ships are, I think it's still reasonable...
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I thought it was normal-sized when the MiG was huge.
If you made the MiG normal sized fort he Lao Tze, the naturally it'd be small.
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Ohhhh, baby...
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It's not tiny. The Lao Tze uses advanced sensory shunts to feed information directly to the pilot via neural implants (as you can see in the FS2 intro, implants are well-grounded in canon.) Besides, given how huge most FS2 ships are, I think it's still reasonable...
wat
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Sorry, that was kind of an incomplete response.
The small cockpit is justified because the pilot is basically wedged into the fighter in a goo bath seeing the world via an Enhanced Reality system.
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Sorry, that was kind of an incomplete response.
The small cockpit is justified because the pilot is basically wedged into the fighter in a goo bath seeing the world via an Enhanced Reality system.
No, no, where is it in the FS2 intro?
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Look at the skeletons on the surface of Deneb.
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Goo bath? :wtf:
I assume if the pilot is female she either has to be naked or in a very tight-fitting plugsuit.
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Look at the skeletons on the surface of Deneb.
All I see are visual aids, the type that fit over your eye.
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3:25. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khIWdolT9xY)
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3:25. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khIWdolT9xY)
Yes, I checked it before I posted. I don't see anything besides what appears to be a powered monocle.
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The guy has a tricked-out arm.
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I thought that was actually a weapon, hand buried into the sand.
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Looks more like a machine gun or sidearm to me.
(dammit Fury` beat me to it)
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It's definitely possible, and it's even styled a bit like the Terran weapons, but hey! Why not!
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The guy has a tricked-out arm.
That just looks like the machine gun used for boarding actions like Hallfight.
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Nonsense! :p
In any case there are plenty of 'em in the BP head .anis due to the Supreme Commander origins, so at least there's that.
Oh, and it turns out Rheza Station wasn't a reference to Supreme Commander at all. So I'm dumb there too.
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I also recall Battuta saying that this (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTVB_Chnubis) will be in WiH as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, Battuta. :nervous:
I'm not Batutta, but I can tell you that the Chunbis (actually named Chnuphis) will indeed be in WiH, but it will not be GTVB, GTB or UEB. :)
It's a gunship, of course! Especially if you mount a turret or two on it.
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Or a pirate ship, it may be old tech.