Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on July 11, 2009, 11:16:10 am
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It's done (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8144434.stm), only Chevy, GMC, Buick, and Cadillac remain, Pontiac is being discontinued and everything is being sold off. The US government appearently still has %61 ownership.
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The US government apparently still has %61 ownership.
Which hopefully they will sell off and get rid of as soon as possible.
I can dream, right?
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I really don't think they have the time or desire to run a car company.
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:cool:
I really don't think they have the time or desire to run a car company.
Hopefully...
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I really don't think they have the time or desire to run a car company.
OMFGBBQROFLCOPTER!!!!!
Right, you realize that now that they have a car company, they can set the standard however they like and make "enviromentally friendly" automobiles, they'll go about 20 mph and look like:
(http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/200808/ebay-find-of-the-day_460x0w.jpg)
Did I mention that they'll be about as safe as the average egg carton in a collision.
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*headdesk*
Liberator, go read a book. Actually, go read 'Who Killed the Electric Car'!
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I really don't think they have the time or desire to run a car company.
OMFGBBQROFLCOPTER!!!!!
Right, you realize that now that they have a car company, they can set the standard however they like and make "enviromentally friendly" automobiles, they'll go about 20 mph and look like:
(http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/200808/ebay-find-of-the-day_460x0w.jpg)
Did I mention that they'll be about as safe as the average egg carton in a collision.
Unless I'm wrong (wouldn't be a first) they can set standards anyways. They don't need to own a car company to do that.
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I wish that even half of the things Liberator is afraid of had any chance of coming true.
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No you don't Ford, I promise you don't. :D
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I really don't think they have the time or desire to run a car company.
OMFGBBQROFLCOPTER!!!!!
Right, you realize that now that they have a car company, they can set the standard however they like and make "enviromentally friendly" automobiles, they'll go about 20 mph and look like:
(http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/200808/ebay-find-of-the-day_460x0w.jpg)
Did I mention that they'll be about as safe as the average egg carton in a collision.
You do realize the biggest reason they got into this mess was because the made crap no one wanted, right? The total US marketshare of the Big 3 combined together at the beginning of this year was below %50.....
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I still find Obama's claim that he doesn't want to own GM spurious. The fact that as President of the U.S. he is the controller of 61% of GM stock kind of refutes that. Despite saying he doesn't want to, any command decision relating to GM will still have to deal with the 800-pound gorilla that has 6 out of 10 seats on the board of directors. Unless the U.S. government abstains from any voting, they will end up running GM. I hope the U.S. government finds a buyer for their share in the next month of two. Any longer, and the fact they will still own a large share of GM will again refute the "I don't want to run GM" statement.
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Tesla Roadster
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I still find Obama's claim that he doesn't want to own GM spurious.
Because it fits with the pretty pictures in your head, instead of the fact that they really don't; the company's a ****ing mess, probably unsalvageable, and the reason that the US government had to own so much of it to save the company is because nobody else wanted to and still doesn't.
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GM I hope this time around will realize why it failed so badly in the first place. They've been outdone by Asian and European automakers in fuel effeciency and vehicle maintenance, and they've paid the price. It's good they've finally gotten rid of some of their worst brands (Pontiac and Hummer especially) and decided to focus.
As much as I'm sure they don't want to, they need to focus on fuel effeciency, hybrids probably being the best choice. If only they would follow through on their previous efforts to make the Silverado line more compatible with ethanol, they could have easily taken the #1 spot at least in trucks.
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GM I hope this time around will realize why it failed so badly in the first place. They've been outdone by Asian and European automakers in fuel effeciency and vehicle maintenance, and they've paid the price. It's good they've finally gotten rid of some of their worst brands (Pontiac and Hummer especially) and decided to focus.
As much as I'm sure they don't want to, they need to focus on fuel effeciency, hybrids probably being the best choice. If only they would follow through on their previous efforts to make the Silverado line more compatible with ethanol, they could have easily taken the #1 spot at least in trucks.
Actually, I think if they don't focus on hybrids and just make very efficient gas powered cars, they could make a lot more.
I've owned a Chevy Colbalt since last summer, and I love it. Not the most fancy car ever, but it's pretty tough and I average 37mpg on highways. Also considering I spent like 1/3 the price of a hybrid on it makes it even sweeter. GM just didn't capitalize on these things, until Honda and Toyota had them whipped.
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A small part of me hopes that, if GM can get their act together somewhere down the line, they'll bring back the Pontiac name for something like a limited run Firebird. It's a shame to see a classic emblem have to bite the dust.
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I just laugh when these guys are like "Obama wants to run GM!"
He is President of the United States. There is really no more powerful job and people think he has hard on to run a ****ty car company that sucked so hard the government had to buy 60% of it.
This whole election was a red herring. His true dream was to take over GM so he can force us to buy only tiny crappy cars.
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Actually, I think if they don't focus on hybrids and just make very efficient gas powered cars, they could make a lot more.
Frankly, I agree. I'm not terribly impressed by the current incarnation of hybrids. They are better than a lot of the alternatives, but the whole concept was castrated at birth. I like the idea of having an electric drive with an internal combustion generator on the same vehicle. I do NOT like the idea of having the combustion engine pull double duty as a secondary drive when the electric one can't cut it. That makes the system far too complicated and introduces inefficiencies that chip away at the whole point of having a hybrid in the first place.
What I really want to see is a "hybrid" with a turbine generator and purely electric drive. The great thing about turbines is that you can run them extremely lean, especially in a constant-load situation. If all it is doing is charging a battery or ultra-capacitor, it should be able to run a fixed-speed fixed-load for optimum efficiency. Run lean enough, the flame temperature becomes low enough that nitrogen chemistry isn't as big of a problem and your NOx emissions go way down.
Don't tell me we don't have electric drives that can keep up with normal street and highway driving demand unassisted. I've seen racing electric cars that will kick a normal street car's ass clear into next week.
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Those racing cars are fixed track vehicles for all intents and purposes. They're designed for a certain enviroment in certain conditions; IE flat terrain with a certain type of pavement. The problem with public roads outside of cities is they are typically fairly hilly away from centers of civilization. So the design for someone that lives in Idaho or Montana or even Norther California is going to be very different from one that works great in cities. Internal combustion is the only practical energy source for rural enviroments, and all things being equal, most of the world is still rural.
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Frankly, I agree. I'm not terribly impressed by the current incarnation of hybrids.
The hybrid concept is ok, but the implementation was botched. The plug-in hybrids do a much better job, since they run soley off the battery FIRST before dipping into the engine. The BYD F3DM is supposed to be able to go 100 km on a single charge, although the tests was assuming a speed of 52 kph. Still, way better than the Prius.
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Two things:
1) The government has stated already that they have no intention on running GM - at all. Actually, I believe it was Obama himself that stated that. GM confirmed it.
2) I agree that the best thing they could have done is left their brands that were pulling them down. The Hummer, Pontiac, and Saturn were ridiculous. Especially in the last few years. Their remaining brands have HUGE potential. The Corvette is known worldwide as an economy sports car (relatively) that can roll with exotics that cost 5 or 6 times what it does. Chevy also had some excellent trucks, which are good (here in Texas every other vehicle on the road is a truck). Cadillac - same thing. they are still the standard of luxury in the world (i.e. people say "that's the cadillac of laptops", etc. read: not the bentley of laptops, not the rolls royce of laptops, not the maserati, all of which, when it comes to luxury, blow cadillac away). Chevy had some awesome fuel efficient cars too. The cobalt is amazing - i think someone commented that they had one at one stage. Good stuff
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Anybody know thew satus of Holden in all this? The rest of GM can fall in a hole as far as I'm concerned, but I do want to see Holden live on, if only to keep Ford honest. There doesn't seem to be much major disruption occuring, but I'd love to see more detail, and google isn't helping much.
[EDIT]Wait, never mind, Holden is fine.
Continue.
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Hybrids are incredibly damaging to the enviroment. Clean and efficent (conventional) diesel and petrol is the only viable option untill somebody makes a decision on alternative fuels and implementing the required infastructure.
Two things:
1) The government has stated already that they have no intention on running GM - at all. Actually, I believe it was Obama himself that stated that. GM confirmed it.
2) I agree that the best thing they could have done is left their brands that were pulling them down. The Hummer, Pontiac, and Saturn were ridiculous. Especially in the last few years. Their remaining brands have HUGE potential. The Corvette is known worldwide as an economy sports car (relatively) that can roll with exotics that cost 5 or 6 times what it does. Chevy also had some excellent trucks, which are good (here in Texas every other vehicle on the road is a truck). Cadillac - same thing. they are still the standard of luxury in the world (i.e. people say "that's the cadillac of laptops", etc. read: not the bentley of laptops, not the rolls royce of laptops, not the maserati, all of which, when it comes to luxury, blow cadillac away). Chevy had some awesome fuel efficient cars too. The cobalt is amazing - i think someone commented that they had one at one stage. Good stuff
You've already been told about that Cadillac nonsense. I can only speak for the uk but over here it's a just another poorly built american car with dubious quality and hurrendous depreciation.
Plus the Corvette usually sees massive mark-ups so it isn't that much of a bargain. Oh and see Cadillac.
Sorry.
I've always liked Saturn but I can't really offer much explanation as to why. :doubt:
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I'll buy some GM stock if the following conditions are met:
I want to watch the public execution of their body design team on my tv, followed by the executions of the people who thought selling hummers and SUVs while gas was $4 a gallon was a good idea.
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Last I checked, idiocy wasn't a crime. However, If someone decides that they deserve to be laid-off, I will get behind that and push.
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Last I checked, idiocy wasn't a crime.
I bet you'd get a different opinion if you asked the citizens of Detroit on this particular matter.
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However unfortunate it may be, it is not an opinion that idiocy is not a crime. It is to say that idiocy is indeed a crime. I can't really say I feel the pain of people laid off, but their righteous indignation does not make for a correct assessment.
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I have some hope...they are replacing some very mediocre vehicles with vehicles that potentially exceed what the market offers right now. The 2010 Equinox with its DI engines and excellent fuel economy and according to early reviews very good interior feel and a high degree of sound dampening is encouraging. The Cobalt is good for fuel economy but little else...soon to be replaced with the Cruze which seems to follow the trend so far of being a much better car inside. Hopefully a DI engine plus a good transmission and refined interior will make it a class leader...Toyota, Honda, and Mazda could use some competition in this segment.
These two are key...at least in Canada.
I'm also looking forward to the production Chevy Orlando. Could be a VERY useful family or utility vehicle.
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I'll buy some GM stock if the following conditions are met:
I want to watch the public execution of their body design team on my tv, followed by the executions of the people who thought selling hummers and SUVs while gas was $4 a gallon was a good idea.
Last time I checked, gas skyrocketed to $4 a gallon over the course of, oh, a year or so. You want to figure out a way to swiftly temporarily turn over production on a massive scale without incurring an equally massive financial hit, be my guest.
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Bonus points to anyone who thinks that you don't put stuff on the shelf if you have it, even if it may not be the most in demand thing.
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1) The government has stated already that they have no intention on running GM - at all. Actually, I believe it was Obama himself that stated that. GM confirmed it.
Obama says many things, doesn't mean that it will be true. Only time will tell for sure.
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You've already been told about that Cadillac nonsense. I can only speak for the uk but over here it's a just another poorly built american car with dubious quality and hurrendous depreciation.
Plus the Corvette usually sees massive mark-ups so it isn't that much of a bargain. Oh and see Cadillac.
Sorry.
I've always liked Saturn but I can't really offer much explanation as to why. :doubt:
I've "already been told" about that cadillac nonsense? please clarify?
See that's just it - you're "only speaking" for the UK... this is a discussion about an American company. Thus your opinions really are moot. I know you don't see many cadillacs in the UK, why? because i travel to the UK all the time... shoot, half of my family lives in the UK. In the US, you do see a lot of cadillacs, and they are still the benchmark of american luxury. period. that isn't really debatable. thanks for trying though :)
Corvette usually sees massive markups!? Where do you get this information?
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Cadillac doesn't have the presence in Europe that it does in North America so Roanoke I think your perceptions (unless you've done some serious reading) may be a bit off...sales of most American cars are very limited in Europe. Cadillac does actually make some decent vehicles now...it had fallen seriously behind but its coming back and they have some solid new stuff either out already or coming shortly. They are aimed squarely at their German rivals now.
Lexus is still the benchmark for the comfortable and reliable performance. They win on these year after year in Consumer Reports but in recent years the performance luxury side of things has been muddied by some really great competition between BMW, Audi, Cadillac, etc.
Still quite some way for GM to go yet...I'd still be hesitant to buy one of their products. But by the time I need to buy a new vehicle maybe that will have changed. They need to prove that they have changed their attitudes, their quality levels over the long term, and that they will stand by their product (even their cheapest product). Historically they haven't done any of these but maybe those left have learned their lesson.
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How you getting on with the Corolla (it was a corolla wasn't it ?) Ice ?
You've already been told about that Cadillac nonsense. I can only speak for the uk but over here it's a just another poorly built american car with dubious quality and hurrendous depreciation.
Plus the Corvette usually sees massive mark-ups so it isn't that much of a bargain. Oh and see Cadillac.
Sorry.
I've always liked Saturn but I can't really offer much explanation as to why. :doubt:
I've "already been told" about that cadillac nonsense? please clarify?
See that's just it - you're "only speaking" for the UK... this is a discussion about an American company. Thus your opinions really are moot. I know you don't see many cadillacs in the UK, why? because i travel to the UK all the time... shoot, half of my family lives in the UK. In the US, you do see a lot of cadillacs, and they are still the benchmark of american luxury. period. that isn't really debatable. thanks for trying though :)
Corvette usually sees massive markups!? Where do you get this information?
You stated Cadalliac is a mark of quality the world over but because I'm on the uk my opinion isn't valid ?
That's a contradiction.
I forget the price of Corvettes when they were sold alongside Camaros (In Vauxhall dealers) but it was cheaper to import them privatly.
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Ahh yes I've heard about the Corvettes that were sold in the UK...extremely expensive to the point of it being ludicrous. Export/import issues...its what happens when you have something that is already low production I suppose.
My Corolla XRS one year on has so far been a solid vehicle. A couple of rattles here and there but aside from that its pretty much rock solid. Had it out on a road trip this weekend. Put another 1500 km on it and its ready for some more. Love being able to pass a truck on a hill in the passing lane in sport mode with the 2.4L revving up to 5000 rpm and then dropping back into automatic for another comfortable few hours cruising.
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I wish that even half of the things Liberator is afraid of had any chance of coming true.
Seconded.
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Hmm Let's see...
Government taking over Wall Street....check
Government taking over the Auto Industry...almost there
Government taking over the Oil/Energy Industry...before the end of the year
Government taking over the Medical Industry...yayoubetcha
Government cracking down on Free Speech rights...it's coming(but only if you are against Government)
Government raising taxes on everyone that makes over X amt(which they consider rich) to 80% to pay for entitlement programs to buy votes to keep them in office...check
You seeing a theme here yet?
This one's for my fans:
Godless Atheists providing a legal beatdown anytime someone expresses a belief in God...every major Christian holiday...er, check(I wouldn't complain if they *****ed about Ramadan or a Jewish one, but they don't').
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Hmm Let's see...
Government taking over Wall Street....check
Government taking over the Auto Industry...almost there
Government taking over the Oil/Energy Industry...before the end of the year
Government taking over the Medical Industry...yayoubetcha
Government cracking down on Free Speech rights...it's coming(but only if you are against Government)
Government raising taxes on everyone that makes over X amt(which they consider rich) to 80% to pay for entitlement programs to buy votes to keep them in office...check
You seeing a theme here yet?
You're paranoid about the government because all the right wing governments do their best to **** up everything they touch? Maybe the government should take over the oil industry to balance the oil industry taking over government for quite a while. Do you have any idea of how much better a public health system works in so many other countries? Are the democrats going to call everyone who doesn't agree with them cowards and traitors too? Are you aware that governments usually try to do things to help the people who voted for them? I know Bush kinda screwed everyone over but most of the time it's what happens.
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Godless Atheists
As opposed to all those Godfearing Atheists.
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You Americans don't know what's good for you:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html (http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html)
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It's much better that greedy corporations run these things.
Seriously though, I love this unhinged fear we're seeing now.
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Oh noes big scary Obama administration taking steps to run our lives...
You know, I'd rather have a government that keeps the Bernie Madoffs of Wall Street in line. I'd rather have a government which breaks monopolies and price fixings. I'd rather have a government that takes some of the ultrarich's money (thus depriving them of their fourth house and 26th 59") to pay for a poor girl's life-saving surgery. I'd rather have a government that encourages work, and does everything in its power to give people the means to be successful.
I'd rather have that than a government which wastes billions on botched wars, throws me on a special database when I use the word "jihad" or "martyr" on the phone regardless of context, or a government that can warrantlessly and without telling me why, throw me into prison to be tortured.
Which one is it that you want again, Lib?
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I'd rather have a small government with low taxes and stays the hell outta my life as much as possible instead of Big Daddy that takes care of my every need. Cause you know what? The USA would be a much more prosperous place for EVERYONE if it were like that. And those "Ultrarich" you were talking about...who are they exactly? Can you tell me what percent of the population you have to from and how much you have to take to provide all that wonderful stuff you want?
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Hybrids are the way of the future. They are efficient, save money, save gas.
A Hybrid with the new A123 battery uses only 1/3 of the fuel a normal car would. The batteries are so awesome that the Killacycles (electric racing bike, 0-100 in 3,5 sec) engine blew from sheer power .
Then you have the superefficient car concept - a car redesigned so the actual power of the engine is better used. Uses half the fuel of a normal car and stores excess power so you can plug it into the power grid and sell excess power back to the power company.
Green tech is far better than most people think.... if it could only actually get to the people.
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I'd rather have a small government with low taxes and stays the hell outta my life as much as possible instead of Big Daddy that takes care of my every need. Cause you know what? The USA would be a much more prosperous place for EVERYONE if it were like that. And those "Ultrarich" you were talking about...who are they exactly? Can you tell me what percent of the population you have to from and how much you have to take to provide all that wonderful stuff you want?
So where were you during the Bush era again?
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Hybrids are the way of the future. They are efficient, save money, save gas.
A Hybrid with the new A123 battery uses only 1/3 of the fuel a normal car would. The batteries are so awesome that the Killacycles (electric racing bike, 0-100 in 3,5 sec) engine blew from sheer power .
Then you have the superefficient car concept - a car redesigned so the actual power of the engine is better used. Uses half the fuel of a normal car and stores excess power so you can plug it into the power grid and sell excess power back to the power company.
Green tech is far better than most people think.... if it could only actually get to the people.
Expensive and only marginally better mileage than a good conventional diesel and incredibly admaging to the enviroment if you take into account CO2 costs to manufacture and eventually scrap the car
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Expensive and only marginally better mileage than a good conventional diesel and incredibly admaging to the enviroment if you take into account CO2 costs to manufacture and eventually scrap the car
WROOOOONG!
It wouldn't really be a green design if manufacturing costs and pollutions weren't considered. The super-battereis are very simple and cheap to make. The Super-efficient car...well, they had to invent a new way to mass produce carbon fiber plates more cheaply and effectively (which they did), but otherwise, it's a very simple design to produce.
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I'd rather have a small government with low taxes and stays the hell outta my life as much as possible instead of Big Daddy that takes care of my every need. Cause you know what? The USA would be a much more prosperous place for EVERYONE if it were like that. And those "Ultrarich" you were talking about...who are they exactly? Can you tell me what percent of the population you have to from and how much you have to take to provide all that wonderful stuff you want?
Then you'd have businesses in every part of your life. It's one or the other. Unless you want to live like a mountain man out in the wilderness, someone is going to be making these decisions.
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[quote author=Roanoke link=topic=64333.msg1270151#msg1270151 date=124768534
Expensive and only marginally better mileage than a good conventional diesel and incredibly admaging to the enviroment if you take into account CO2 costs to manufacture and eventually scrap the car
WROOOOONG!
It wouldn't really be a green design if manufacturing costs and pollutions weren't considered. The super-battereis are very simple and cheap to make. The Super-efficient car...well, they had to invent a new way to mass produce carbon fiber plates more cheaply and effectively (which they did), but otherwise, it's a very simple design to produce.
[/quote]
Uh, it isn't a green design, that's my point. It's Toyota pretending it is to sell more cars.
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Something to remember about about so-called "green" designs.
They're purpose is to eliminate or reduce the amounts of pollutants that the cars are putting into the air. That's all fine and good, but what about what they're taking out of the ground to make these "greed", er, "green" cars? Precious rare earths that are in an actual limited supply. We're not talking about saving a few polar bears(which was a red herring btw) or making LA's air as pure as Yellowstone's, we're talking about running out of these rare earths in a VERY short period time, not in a century or two, but actually being out of usable sources of certain rare earths withing 5 to 10 years if we start cranking out these so called "green" cars on the scale where it will actually matter. We're not talking about a few hundred thousand of these crackerbox, unsafe cars that don't work where the Grid is virtually non-existent. Were talking about hundreds of millions.
Just a thought I had.
BTW, during the Bush years I was in the same place I am now. From a certain perspective, I am glad that Bush was tied up with Iraq and Afghanistan. It kept him from pursuing a social agenda that probably would've looked similar to what Obama is trying to do. I am very much a Reagan style conservative.
I heard a dirty rumor that suggested we're on the verge of a new resurgence of eugenics to weed out the "unwanted" sectors of the population, coupled with the fact that they engineered a type of corn that carries a contraceptive in it, I am becoming troubled about that as well. But this is a tale for another thread.
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Seriously...where are you getting half of this?
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So...just cause some fool paints a rock in gold color and tries to pass it off as gold, you conclude there is no gold?
There are green tech and cars out there. REAL green techs and cars. Built and designed and researched to be more efficient and pollute less, while having similar (if not lesser) manufacturing costs. If you ever bothered to do some research....
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I love when Lib comes in and posts.
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Platinum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platinum) is a key ingredient in rechargable Li-Ion batteries. However, and I quote,
Platinum is an extremely rare metal, occurring as only 0.003 ppb in the Earth's crust.
If production goes forward in quantity, I stress those last two words, we'll run out of Platinum for other, arguably more important projects and endeavours possibly before we ever realize we need it.
This is one of many reasons we, as a species, need to get off our collective asses and really push the development of space technologies to the point where they become ubiquitous. I mean seriously, our premier space vehicle is aproaching the 30 year old mark with no replacement in sight and still, in all seriousness, classes as a prototype(and a dangerous one at that).
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Well done at utterly failing to read the entirety of that article, which incidentally fails to mention lithium ion batteries (similarly the lithium ion battery page fails to mention platinum). The closest thing google could find was non-rechargeable lithium batteries with a single mention of platinum. Anyway, on with the actual use of most platinum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platinum#Applications):
Of the 239 tonnes of platinum sold in 2006, 130 tonnes were used for automobile emissions control devices, 49 tonnes were used for jewelry, 13.3 tonnes were used in electronics, and 11.2 tonnes were used by the chemical industry as a catalyst
Clearly, if these cars were phased out, the platinum to be used in them could be redirected to more space exploration related pursuits whatever you think they may be.
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Hmm Let's see...
Government taking over Wall Street....check
Government taking over the Auto Industry...almost there
Government taking over the Oil/Energy Industry...before the end of the year
Government taking over the Medical Industry...yayoubetcha
Government cracking down on Free Speech rights...it's coming(but only if you are against Government)
Government raising taxes on everyone that makes over X amt(which they consider rich) to 80% to pay for entitlement programs to buy votes to keep them in office...check
You seeing a theme here yet?
This one's for my fans:
Godless Atheists providing a legal beatdown anytime someone expresses a belief in God...every major Christian holiday...er, check(I wouldn't complain if they *****ed about Ramadan or a Jewish one, but they don't').
I'm seeing a theme. Liberator says "<such-and-such> is going to happen!" and assumes that we agree that <such-and-such> is bad and shouldn't happen.
Edit: also, yeah we need to save our platinum... so we can make jewelery out of it and whatnot... :p
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Yea are we saving Platinum for something?
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Frankly, I'd be more worried about Tin and Copper, the thing about Platinum is that everyone knows it's rare, so it's recycled to death, people take Tin and Copper for granted, and not nearly enough effort is made to recycle them, despite the fact that our own mineable stocks are starting to run low.
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Frankly, I'd be more worried about Tin and Copper, the thing about Platinum is that everyone knows it's rare, so it's recycled to death, people take Tin and Copper for granted, and not nearly enough effort is made to recycle them, despite the fact that our own mineable stocks are starting to run low.
What is this? The bronze age?
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Flip the difference with copper is that in the entirety of human history from before the Sumerians and Egyptians to right now, we've uses MAYBE 7-10% of the total available supply. I expect it's similar with tin, iron has me a little worried but that's a few centuries from now.
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Iron also composes just over a quarter of the entire Earth by weight :rolleyes:.
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Well, I probably worded that wrongly, let's put it this way, if we mined all of the copper in the Earths crust and recycled every bit of Copper we used, we still wouldn't have nearly enough to bring every country on the planet up to the current technological level of the US and Europe.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=measure-of-metal-supply-f
In many ways, that's another reason why expanding into Space is vital, contrary to popular belief, the Earth doesn't have enough to go round, and that requirement gap is only going to grow.
What is this? The bronze age?
Guess what Copper wire is made of...
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So let's get all the Platinum now before the other countries get to it!
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It's happening with Oil right now.
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Yea are we saving Platinum for something?
Maybe for the magnetics lab I worked in a few summers ago. I was using platinum chloride to attempt to synthesize iron-platinum magnetic nanoparticles. The going price for a 5-gram bottle was something like four hundred dollars. You don't spill that stuff. :p
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Yea are we saving Platinum for something?
Maybe for the magnetics lab I worked in a few summers ago. I was using platinum chloride to attempt to synthesize iron-platinum magnetic nanoparticles. The going price for a 5-gram bottle was something like four hundred dollars. You don't spill that stuff. :p
I read somewhere there's more platinum on the asteroid Eros than has ever been mined in the history of the world combined.
Expensive and only marginally better mileage than a good conventional diesel
The original hybrids, yeah, but the plug in hybrids are better in that you can go pretty much your entire daily commute on just the battery.
incredibly admaging to the enviroment if you take into account CO2 costs to manufacture and eventually scrap the car
Links?
Godless Atheists providing a legal beatdown anytime someone expresses a belief in God.
And after centuries of oppression and religious imperialism (literally) beating down anyone expressing a disbelief in god it is time they got what they deserve.
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The best religious groups can do right now is just sit back and shutup. I don't know of any major civil liberties or aetheist organization that is actively seeking the repression or dismantling of religion...they just want to be able to live in a country where not being religious doesn't automatically set you as an outcast or make you feel unwelcome.
Religion is just using the aetheist/civil liberties movement to justify a jihad against the unbelievers again...
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Religion is just using the aetheist/civil liberties movement to justify a jihad against the unbelievers again...
"Religion" as a whole is? Like, every single one of us? Guess I missed that memo. :p
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You're not the only one.
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Man, it's jihadist AND has poor communication?
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It's because no-ones come right out and said' Let's have a Jihad on Athesists, instead it is the constant drone about 'Godless Liberals' from several 'Godheads' in the church, and constant referrals to atheists as though if they could all be removed from the US, we'd all be eating Apple Pie and drinking 4 Star.
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It's because no-ones come right out and said' Let's have a Jihad on Athesists, instead it is the constant drone about 'Godless Liberals' from several 'Godheads' in the church, and constant referrals to atheists as though if they could all be removed from the US, we'd all be eating Apple Pie and drinking 4 Star.
To be fair, you get the same thing in the other direction too ("we could actually make progress if religion just disappeared!"). Why can't we all just get along?
On one hand, it's annoying that small, vocal, vitriolic minorities are making so much (unnecessary) trouble for so many people. On the other hand, snarky debate is better than one side shutting out ALL debate (although civil debate is infinitely preferable to both).
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Agreed, neither side should be wishing for the non-existence of the other, and I'll freely admit that there are as many radical anti-religious nuts here as there are radical religious nuts, different colour background, but still the same picture ;)
It's the old story of 'If we could only get rid of X, Y wouldn't happen', when the truth is 'Y always finds a way of happening'.
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Flipside, if we just stop talking about the controversy, it'll go away! I can feel it in my gut on this one.
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That's probably wind, or your gut is lying to you.
I didn't say 'don't talk about it', I said, wishing for the non-existence of the other isn't going to help'. Please don't put words in my mouth.
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And I never said the world would be better off without religion. What I said is that church needs to stop using the moderate aetheists' (not the ones who want religion demolished) desire to have church and state separated as a causus belli to scream persecution and get sensitive.
The flipside is also true...aetheism and the civil liberties movement need to respect the church's existence, and not seek to demolish it. I would think the goal of this movement anyway is mostly to have religion out of politics and to keep religion from enforcing itself on others who don't agree (looking at you, gay marriage bans).
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And after centuries of oppression and religious imperialism (literally) beating down anyone expressing a disbelief in god it is time they got what they deserve.
This is the stupidest argument in the history of stupid arguments.
What next? Are you planning to kill my kids cause my garnd-granddad cheated yours out of some land?
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We just had one of these.
Let's pretend it just all happened right here in this post. nuclear1 was reasonable, Flipside was wise, BlueLion made fair points but for some reason they were miscommunicated to Kosh or iamzack or something, Trashman said something I took as misogynistic, I flipped out, Scotty stayed on the reasonable side of the religious thing, Liberator (adorably) didn't, HerraTohtori clarified some point of science, Kazan talked about the evils of circumcision, Androgeos Exeunt said something totally irrelevant about how GenDisc is dumb, and then
LOCK.
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Brings a tear of nostalgia to my eye ;)