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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: admiral_wolf on July 17, 2009, 05:04:35 pm

Title: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: admiral_wolf on July 17, 2009, 05:04:35 pm
Something struck me about this event at work today (entirely random given that I work at a railway station).  My namesake I believe made a very critical error.  The Comms. Officer issues this message:

"We are beginning the evacuation procedure, keep them away from the escape pods!"

But why only launch 4 Hermes!?  I cannot see why an Orion would only have 4 pods on board.  Also, why only skirmish 4 fighters when you're being attacked with no method of escape.  At the most, there are 9 fighters (and one of those is Alpha 1 in a Medusa...) covering both the escape of personnel and defending the striken craft.

To me, it would have made more sense to recall Alpha and Beta as soon as Eva went down, destroy the first attack wings, then launch two wings of fighters.  Then and only then launch the Hermes.  That way:

More assets i.e. fighters, and trained pilots will survive, given that they are off the destoryer

The escape pods have more chance of survival as they have more escort


I suppose one could say that the fighter bay became damaged in the firefight, but I didn't think this was canonically possible?

Anyway that's my mamma!
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Snail on July 17, 2009, 05:35:28 pm
Probably most of the pilots had already been deployed throughout Deneb to attack other positions and were either occupied or already dead.

As for why they only launched 4 Hermes escape pods, it's likely because they're idiots. Canonically a Hermes only carries 20 people, so only 80 people would have escaped. Assuming that the Galatea was at full crew capacity (10,000), less than 1% of the crew escaped. :doubt:
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Commander Zane on July 17, 2009, 05:38:02 pm
Evacuate the "important" people and sod the rest? :P

It's FreeSpace, it wouldn't make sense to actually take the time to use a proper defense wing. ;)
Remember the almighty mission to destroy the Sathanas? Colossus, bomber wing, no escort. ;7
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Dragon on July 17, 2009, 05:44:12 pm
I agree that they should launch everything they had on Galatea, including fighters, bombers, personnel transports, everything.
Though I'm unsure how the engine would handle 500 Hermeses in those days (even now SCP isn't capable of that, it has ship limit of 400 per mission).
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 17, 2009, 05:46:07 pm
I often agonize over how possible it is for a GTVA destroyer to launch an alpha strike or what exactly would constitute a full deck strike for them. On one level, with 150 spacecraft, simply keeping 20 of them in action constantly is a major challenge. In WW2, until late 1944 a fleet carrier not engaged in a major action rarely had more than twenty aircraft in the air at any one time, and CAP/ASW patrol duties rotated between ships. Yet they proved capable of throwing a tremendous number of aircraft out at one time if called for; a single US carrier could throw a strike of 60 to 75 aircraft and still have fighters left for ship defense; a Japanese carrier could respond with 50 to 60. A Nimitz is capable of embarking about 105 aircraft in theory, but their air groups are smaller than that, 60 to 75. They rarely have more than 15 aloft at any one time, but at a "surge" operational tempo a Nimitz can keep 45 or 50 (at least) of its aircraft aloft at any one time, for up to two weeks.

GTVA destroyers, for whatever reason, do not seem able to do this kind of thing in the games. They can launch at up to three at a time at minimum, and we know of no functional time limit between launches to explain why they don't launch more fightercraft. Either everything they have is deployed, combat launches are extremely dangerous (let's face it, having an Ursa with a load of bombs detonate in the hanger from enemy fire is going to **** you up), or the computers FS was designed for weren't meant to handle such things and they make it terribly difficult for a single person to contribute. Or some combination of the three.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Spoon on July 17, 2009, 05:58:28 pm
Evacuate the "important" people and sod the rest? :P
Men and officers first!
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Snail on July 17, 2009, 06:07:29 pm
I often agonize over how possible it is for a GTVA destroyer to launch an alpha strike or what exactly would constitute a full deck strike for them. On one level, with 150 spacecraft, simply keeping 20 of them in action constantly is a major challenge. In WW2, until late 1944 a fleet carrier not engaged in a major action rarely had more than twenty aircraft in the air at any one time, and CAP/ASW patrol duties rotated between ships. Yet they proved capable of throwing a tremendous number of aircraft out at one time if called for; a single US carrier could throw a strike of 60 to 75 aircraft and still have fighters left for ship defense; a Japanese carrier could respond with 50 to 60. A Nimitz is capable of embarking about 105 aircraft in theory, but their air groups are smaller than that, 60 to 75. They rarely have more than 15 aloft at any one time, but at a "surge" operational tempo a Nimitz can keep 45 or 50 (at least) of its aircraft aloft at any one time, for up to two weeks.

GTVA destroyers, for whatever reason, do not seem able to do this kind of thing in the games. They can launch at up to three at a time at minimum, and we know of no functional time limit between launches to explain why they don't launch more fightercraft. Either everything they have is deployed, combat launches are extremely dangerous (let's face it, having an Ursa with a load of bombs detonate in the hanger from enemy fire is going to **** you up), or the computers FS was designed for weren't meant to handle such things and they make it terribly difficult for a single person to contribute. Or some combination of the three.
I've always thought it had something to do with the logistics of launching more than a few fighters at once. These things are a lot more advanced than F-15s and such, they have infinitely recharging afterburners, multi-kiloton pea shooters, lasers, etc. Although a destroyer may be able to carry 150+ spacecraft at once, it might be incapable of actually deploying all of them at the same time.

Evacuate the "important" people and sod the rest? :P
Men and officers first!
Well, Admiral Wolf on that particular occasion stayed behind.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Aardwolf on July 17, 2009, 07:57:46 pm
Hm yeah, I've always been disappointed that "scramble the fighters" really just means "launch 4-12 fighters and then promptly die or, if you're lucky, be rescued by a 21st century gamer who hasn't bothered to challenge themselves with the higher difficulty levels".

Edit: but what would fighters have been able to do for the Galatea, except maybe carry their pilots to another Destroyer? Or did you expect the pilots to try to deliberately place their fighters between the Shivan Super Lasers and their targets? I've actually tried to do it once, but it's basically impossible, and even if you could, you'd be dead and the AI wingmen won't be too keen on following suit. That and if you somehow managed to keep the Galatea from going down, you'd never be able to finish the mission without getting a desertion debrief.

Edit the Second: Maybe something sort of like that scene in BSG where

Spoiler:
the Pegasus launches every remaining ship that was fast enough to get out of the hangar as she charged full speed into the enemy basestar
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 17, 2009, 08:07:40 pm
I've always thought it had something to do with the logistics of launching more than a few fighters at once. These things are a lot more advanced than F-15s and such, they have infinitely recharging afterburners, multi-kiloton pea shooters, lasers, etc. Although a destroyer may be able to carry 150+ spacecraft at once, it might be incapable of actually deploying all of them at the same time.

The problem with that is there's a certain formula to the logistics of it that makes having backup craft, beyond a certain number, a pointless exercise. In modern terms that number is pretty much nil; around WW2 it was 5 active for one backup or so. If the alternative is to believe GTVA logistics or ship design is horribly inefficent, I'm going to pass on that.

Hm yeah, I've always been disappointed that "scramble the fighters" really just means "launch 4-12 fighters and then promptly die or, if you're lucky, be rescued by a 21st century gamer who hasn't bothered to challenge themselves with the higher difficulty levels".

I think his point basically is that fighters are expensive, y'know, and so are pilots, and if you can save them both you're obligated to try in much the same way that in WW2 when an inbound air raid was detected, all aircraft able to fly were launched so they wouldn't be absolute sitting ducks.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on July 18, 2009, 03:13:38 am
The evacuation of the Galatea reminds me of the Aquitaine in Argonautica. I think there were less than ten escape pods on the Hecate, and each contained non-essential personnel.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Spoon on July 18, 2009, 04:01:25 am
Evacuate the "important" people and sod the rest? :P
Men and officers first!
Well, Admiral Wolf on that particular occasion stayed behind.
With only space for 80, maybe he didn't had a choice  :p
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: TrashMan on July 18, 2009, 06:42:12 am
Escape pods need a scale adjustment.

Well, that, or simply make a mission where several waves are launched one after another. Prefereably both.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on July 18, 2009, 07:40:04 am
Can escape pods be assigned into wings? :confused:
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Dragon on July 18, 2009, 07:45:13 am
Yes, in fact even capships can, but don't behave properly when there's more than one in wing.
There should be no problems with escape pods though.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Snail on July 18, 2009, 08:09:42 am
No, Escape Pods cannot be assigned to wings. They are some of the only craft that can't do so, along with sentry guns and jump nodes.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on July 18, 2009, 08:12:21 am
What about cruisers?
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Dragon on July 18, 2009, 08:13:21 am
They can, but it may cause some problems with AI (it may start to act weird).
It's strange that escape pods cannot be in wings, but I see an easy workaround, just change their ship type from "Escape pod" to "Transport".
It should make grouping possible.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: voidSkipper on July 19, 2009, 05:19:08 am
I would say that it is largely a game-engine limitation.

There are many ways you could explain it away and still uphold the integrity of the mission.

-Orions go down rarely, especially those in the Galactic Terran fleet. When they do go down, they usually go down slowly. It is therefore possible that there may be few escape pods but several transports onboard, the escape pods may be very difficult to reach quickly, the crew could be badly drilled when it comes to escape pod discipline, etc.
-The escape pods or their launching mechanisms may have already been damaged.
-The "abandon ship" order may have been given too late.

As for the comparisons to WWII carriers to the craft of Freespace, look at the sheer size difference between a Hercules MK1 and a Grumman Wildcat. Seriously guys. They must eat fuel, be a ***** to maintain, be unweildy to get out of the hanger, be awkward to rearm, and a whole host of other limitations.

EDIT: And before the comparison of Orion vs WWII carrier size comes up, look at the flight deck, not the whole craft.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Spoon on July 19, 2009, 06:00:28 am
Quote
As for the comparisons to WWII carriers to the craft of Freespace, look at the sheer size difference between a Hercules MK1 and a Grumman Wildcat. Seriously guys. They must eat fuel, be a ***** to maintain, be unweildy to get out of the hanger, be awkward to rearm, and a whole host of other limitations.
Why do you assume that? It's how many years in the future? Why would they design and make horrible nightmares for the maintance crews like that? Besides, look how easy it is to rearm a craft in freespace. You just dock with a support ship and stuff is loaded in within the minute.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Commander Zane on July 19, 2009, 06:36:32 am
And they have afterburner that recharges indefinately, why would they consume fuel?
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Scotty on July 19, 2009, 07:11:11 am
Behold boys, the magic of the fusion engine.  Of fission.  Could go either way.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: voidSkipper on July 19, 2009, 07:14:10 am
I apologise - I tend to take a lot of the gameplay with a pinch of salt, treating it more as mechanic than story.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on July 19, 2009, 07:48:40 am
Well, keep in mind that the fuel powering the Hecate is nuclear fusion. I'm sure the Orion has a similar power supply as well.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Spoon on July 19, 2009, 08:30:46 am
Well, keep in mind that the fuel powering the Hecate is nuclear fusion. I'm sure the Orion has a similar power supply as well.
Isn't the Hecate one of those new designs that have vasudan designed generators? (or am I mixing something up with blue planet here?)
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: TrashMan on July 19, 2009, 08:31:39 am
No, Escape Pods cannot be assigned to wings. They are some of the only craft that can't do so, along with sentry guns and jump nodes.

Well, here's something for the next SCP build to fix.

I can already imagine a 6-10 escape pod wings (a dozen waves) fleeing a ship. Keeping it alive until all wings leave would be an interesting task.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: colecampbell666 on July 19, 2009, 08:31:50 am
I thought the Deimos and Hecate were joint designs.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Snail on July 19, 2009, 08:36:40 am
Well, here's something for the next SCP build to fix.

I can already imagine a 6-10 escape pod wings (a dozen waves) fleeing a ship. Keeping it alive until all wings leave would be an interesting task.
Hmm. And it'd be impossible to keep all of them alive, you just need to keep as many as you can... And variables can track how many have died...

/me goes off to FRED something, then gets bored and archives it
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: SpardaSon21 on July 19, 2009, 11:05:26 am
While the Deimos and Hecate may be joint Terran-Vasudan designs, all that really means is that Vasudans have more advanced fusion reactors and engines.  I'd be willing to bet the Terrans are better when it comes to warheads, metallurgy, and astroengineering.  I mean as far as we know the Vasudans didn't invent any new bombs during the Great War, and in Freespace 2 Vasudan fighters have less HP than Terran fighters.  Plus the Orion is better than the Typhon.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Commander Zane on July 19, 2009, 12:34:10 pm
Yet the Hattie is tougher than even the Orion. :P
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Aardwolf on July 19, 2009, 03:27:25 pm
That sounds just like the mission with the Krios' escape pods in the original Silent Threat, except that only had one wave. And it was nigh impossible.

You would, as Snail said, want to keep track of how many die, rather than just fail the player as soon as one dies. Although as far as bonus objectives, it seems like the pilot medals screen is directly analogous to XBox-style "Achievements". Some of them are kind of dumb, particularly in FS2, like Epsilon Pegasi Liberation and Nebula Campaign Victory. I mean, getting a medal for beating the game like in FS1 was enough, IMO, and individual missions not so much. Nonetheless, that would make for an awesome bonus objective and grant-medal sexp.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: wistler on July 24, 2009, 08:23:11 am
I played the FS1 port or whatever it was i downloaded and i seemed to be getting a medal after every mission which seemed just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on July 24, 2009, 10:58:13 am
...FS1 port or whatever it was i downloaded...

Close enough, but it's called FSPort in short. :nod:
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Aardwolf on July 24, 2009, 02:29:31 pm
I played the FS1 port or whatever it was i downloaded and i seemed to be getting a medal after every mission which seemed just ridiculous.

I recently replayed FS1 (in the original engine, as opposed to the fs2 port) and got every single medal on medium. I was surprised.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: eliex on July 24, 2009, 05:13:01 pm
The criteria for the awarding system is easier in original FS1 than FS2 IIRC.
Title: Re: Evacuation of the Galatea
Post by: Snail on July 25, 2009, 08:06:46 pm
That sounds just like the mission with the Krios' escape pods in the original Silent Threat, except that only had one wave. And it was nigh impossible.

You would, as Snail said, want to keep track of how many die, rather than just fail the player as soon as one dies. Although as far as bonus objectives, it seems like the pilot medals screen is directly analogous to XBox-style "Achievements". Some of them are kind of dumb, particularly in FS2, like Epsilon Pegasi Liberation and Nebula Campaign Victory. I mean, getting a medal for beating the game like in FS1 was enough, IMO, and individual missions not so much. Nonetheless, that would make for an awesome bonus objective and grant-medal sexp.
I think it's fine to have mid-campaign medal grants. It did take some effort and skill to get to that point of the campaign, and that's basically what medals are for, right?