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Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Stormkeeper on August 25, 2009, 01:26:22 am

Title: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 25, 2009, 01:26:22 am
So I was reading (http://www.gamespot.com/features/6214951/index.html) a Gamespot article about storytelling in games. And I started to think; what did I prefer in a game? All along I figured I'd pick story over gameplay but after thinking a while, I realised that's not true because I like Perimeter, and that thing has a crappy ass story.

So I figured I'd ask everyone around here; if you had to choose between and excellent, stellar game with revolutionary gameplay and very polished but a mediocre story, or one with a excellent story but lacklustre gameplay, which would you choose? And why?
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Fury on August 25, 2009, 01:34:34 am
You cannot enjoy a story if you have to fight poor gameplay. Hence gamepay is more important than story. You can enjoy a game with excellent gameplay but poor story, but you cannot usually enjoy a game with excellent story but poor gameplay.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 25, 2009, 01:50:45 am
Hmmm. Point. Then what if the gameplay was just average, nothing fancy, just tons of been-there-done-that. But the story is fantastic. Would you still go for the one with excellent gameplay but weak story?
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: The E on August 25, 2009, 02:23:09 am
Personally, I would go for the one with the interesting story. As they said on the evilest site of the internet, tropes are not bad.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Fury on August 25, 2009, 02:23:55 am
As long as "been-there-done-that" works and you can enjoy playing the game, then I would choose improving story over gameplay.

If "been-there-done-that" gameplay equals frustration, then gameplay over story.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Mongoose on August 25, 2009, 02:42:46 am
What Fury said, basically.  If the gameplay is at least passable and completely functional, I'll take the game that has the fantastic story.  Psychonauts is a classic example of this principle: the gameplay is essentially not much different from your standard 3D platformer, but it's the great characters you meet and ridiculously awesome environments you find yourself in that turned it into the universally-praised gem that it is.  However, if you're talking about a game with a fantastic story yet just-about-broken mechanics, I'll most likely stay far away.  A game like Serious Sam has essentially no story to speak of, but that doesn't stop it from having ridiculously fun gameplay.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 25, 2009, 02:54:18 am
So if the gameplay was run of the mill, but was backed up by a spectecular story, you'd play that over the one with little to no story but unbelievably awesome gameplay?
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 25, 2009, 03:09:56 am
Gameplay or story?
 
It depends on the game, TF2 and asteroids are great for gameplay even tetris is more addictive than crack. But Zork and the like excell at storyplaying. Finding a median between the two sometimes works, sometimes it doesn't. It just depends on personal disposition most of the time and how much effort the developers put in.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Ransom on August 25, 2009, 08:21:30 am
So if the gameplay was run of the mill, but was backed up by a spectecular story, you'd play that over the one with little to no story but unbelievably awesome gameplay?
If I had to choose? Yes. Games can be fun and I like having fun, but stories are what I'm really interested in. Interactive fiction is fascinating to me.

Luckily, I don't have to choose, and games like Wipeout can exist right alongside something like Arcanum.

You cannot enjoy a story if you have to fight poor gameplay. Hence gamepay is more important than story. You can enjoy a game with excellent gameplay but poor story, but you cannot usually enjoy a game with excellent story but poor gameplay.
It really depends on the way in which the gameplay's poor. The Silent Hill games, for instance, have universally abysmal gameplay but are well-respected because of their stories; likewise, Planescape: Torment's gameplay is functional at best, sloppy at worst, and the majority of the enjoyment comes from the narrative. The aforementioned Arcanum has some of the worst damn gameplay I've ever experienced, for God's sake. I still adore it.

I agree that there's a point where it's just not worth it, and of course all creators should remember that they are after all making games, but I don't think it's as simple as you suggest. There are degrees. Gameplay should never by neglected to the point that it's painful, but taking into account realities about developers with less-than-infinite resources I think it's perfectly acceptable (if financially inadvisable) for them to prioritise.

I like Perimeter, and that thing has a crappy ass story.
Bite your tongue. Perimeter has a wonderful story. I wish more games were half as charming and convention-defying as that title's setting.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Titan on August 25, 2009, 08:23:09 am
Either no story or a good story. Good gameplay can't make up for a crappy story. But if there's no story, then it's excusable. If a game tries to push a crappy story, it's a crappy game.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 25, 2009, 08:25:34 am
Bite your tongue. Perimeter has a wonderful story. I wish more games were half as charming and convention-defying as that title's setting.
You could make it out? I couldn't. Only things I got were that for some reason, humanity was leaving Earth through some warp system and the Scourge appeared somewhere, and some wanted to move back down some 'Chain' thing.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Rodo on August 25, 2009, 09:10:10 am
Hmmm. Point. Then what if the gameplay was just average, nothing fancy, just tons of been-there-done-that. But the story is fantastic. Would you still go for the one with excellent gameplay but weak story?

play COD4, let me know what you think afterwards.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Ransom on August 25, 2009, 09:42:08 am
You could make it out? I couldn't. Only things I got were that for some reason, humanity was leaving Earth through some warp system and the Scourge appeared somewhere, and some wanted to move back down some 'Chain' thing.
It's a bit convoluted and delivered in a moderately confusing way due to cuts made to the script, but no, I didn't have trouble following it.

It wasn't Earth they left, for instance. I think a lot of the people who complain about Perimeter's story have made the mistake of trying to ground it somewhere in our universe, which simply isn't where the game is set. Add to that the highly abstract nature of the game's principle characters and I can sympathise with your confusion. But it's all there. They outright tell you the explanations for everything you mentioned in your post. You need to be paying attention, though.

It's a shame it did so poorly. Gaming needs more high-concept SF.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: General Battuta on August 25, 2009, 09:52:13 am
Any good gameplay tells a story, so it's kind of a false dichotomy.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Ransom on August 25, 2009, 10:54:04 am
I don't think so. It's very true that gameplay and story should be inseparable, but that doesn't relate to how fun the gameplay is nor whether the story's worth telling. Seems to me the question concerns fun versus the cerebral more than it does the role gameplay has in storytelling.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: BloodEagle on August 25, 2009, 12:20:27 pm
I play games for the fun aspect, so...: Gameplay > Audio > Story > Graphics

Note: those aren't arrows.

So I was reading (http://www.gamespot.com/features/6214951/index.html) a Gamespot article [...]

Why would you do something as silly as that?  :P

Gameplay or story?
 
It depends on the game, TF2 and asteroids are great for gameplay even tetris is more addictive than crack. But Zork and the like excell at storyplaying. Finding a median between the two sometimes works, sometimes it doesn't. It just depends on personal disposition most of the time and how much effort the developers put in.

One of the key reasons for Tetris being so popular is the audio aspect.  Without it, it's still a potentially fun game (see below), but it's seriously lacking something.

Side note: you're either a Tetris person, or a Columns person.  I've never heard anyone say that one isn't far superior to the other.  I'm a Columns person.  :D

Either no story or a good story. Good gameplay can't make up for a crappy story. But if there's no story, then it's excusable. If a game tries to push a crappy story, it's a crappy game.

See: Final Fantasy Tactics Advance.

Spoiler:
The little girl won't save her friends, because she likes her new hairstyle.  :hopping:

Any good gameplay tells a story, so it's kind of a false dichotomy.
I don't think so. It's very true that gameplay and story should be inseparable, but that doesn't relate to how fun the gameplay is nor whether the story's worth telling. Seems to me the question concerns fun versus the cerebral more than it does the role gameplay has in storytelling.

This.

Max Payne is a good example of this.  The gameplay is downright pathetic, and yet the story is ingrained within it quite well.  Of course, the narrative slideshow in a noir setting is the main draw, for me.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: General Battuta on August 25, 2009, 12:28:30 pm
I don't think so. It's very true that gameplay and story should be inseparable, but that doesn't relate to how fun the gameplay is nor whether the story's worth telling. Seems to me the question concerns fun versus the cerebral more than it does the role gameplay has in storytelling.

I think this bespeaks something of a miscommunication about what we mean by 'story'. Asteroids has no story, per se, but the gameplay certainly tells a story: you are surrounded, you are harried, you must move quickly to defeat obstacles. No matter how simple the gameplay task, the player is probably constructing a narrative to go with it: "I'm a hero, I'm so skilled, oh no this is impossible", etcetera and whatnot.

Take...Peggle. No plot whatsoever. But when you play, you're nonetheless spinning out a narrative of sorts - one built out of very small gameplay events (I succeeded! I did better than last time! Uh-oh, I'm not getting as many points as I used to). And that story is part of why the game becomes so addictive; the drive to constantly improve is powerful.

That's what I mean by 'all gameplay tells a story'. Gameplay mechanics must be invested with meaning and value in order to be enjoyable. This is why grinding in MMOs so often becomes objectionable; it feels sterile and unrewarding, a mere mechanical action in pursuit of an abstract goal.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: phatosealpha on August 25, 2009, 12:50:54 pm
Gamplay.  For me at least, a non-existent story or even a bad one cannot signifigantly pull down an otherwise good game - I'll just ignore it.  By comparison, even an excellent story can only serve it's purpose if the gameplay is at least palatable.  A truly bad story cannot ruin a good game, but a truly great story cannot save a bad game either.


Edit:  There is something worth considering though, like the question of where exactly gameplay ends and story begins.  Take torment, or any number of similar titles where story is progress largely through dialogue trees.  Deciding what you're going to say is part of the gameplay though, so is that story, gameplay, or both?
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Sushi on August 25, 2009, 12:59:50 pm
I think I'm with Battuta: you can't really separate them.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: General Battuta on August 25, 2009, 01:00:26 pm
Perhaps 'plot' would be a better term for the traditional narrative elements of a game?
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: StarSlayer on August 25, 2009, 01:36:25 pm
Probably depends on the genre.  Lets face it RPGs are centered on its atmosphere and story.  You generally are already banking on limited game play in favor of interesting plot.  If the gameplay is fantastic and there is piss all plot then you'll probably be unsatisfied.  On the other hand an FPS is based on murdering lots of dudes.  If the thing is a Shakespearean epic yet its a complete crap shoot so far as the gameplay your probably going to toss your controller through the screen.  If the FPS has a gun that shoots shurikens and lightning does it really need a plot?  If the RPG has a plot that moves you does ho hum gameplay matter as much?  It really comes down to what you were expecting out of the expierance.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: SpardaSon21 on August 25, 2009, 01:41:06 pm
I'm undecided.  An excellent plot can rescue an otherwise unpalatable game, and excellent gameplay can save a game that has a horrible or nonsensical plot.  It really all depends on whether or not the gameplay or plot overcomes the shortcomings of the other.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: castor on August 25, 2009, 02:37:23 pm
Gameplay for sure. Otherwise it would be more convenient to just go read a book,
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Titan on August 25, 2009, 03:25:17 pm
  If the FPS has a gun that shoots shurikens and lightning does it really need a plot? 

It would be better if it had tits and was on fire.  :p

But heres something for you: Remember that old arcade game Missle Command? Remember the cities you had to protect? Originally, each one would have a little name over it; New York City, Washington DC, Philadelphia, etc. Would that game have been improved or ruined by that?(Though either way it would have been rather haunting)

Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: CP5670 on August 25, 2009, 03:26:51 pm
Gameplay. There are a number of games I like with great stories and poor gameplay, but I will usually prefer something with superior gameplay. The games I keep coming back to over the years are the ones with outstanding gameplay, and may or may not have a good story. I think among my top 10 games, at least half have a thin or nonexistent story.

However, I like to have some variety between my games, with some excelling in story and others in gameplay (if I have to choose between them).  I wouldn't want all games to be one or the other. I think there are too many modern games that try to focus on story and not enough that concentrate on gameplay.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Scotty on August 25, 2009, 03:44:37 pm
A balance is required.  However, that balance is made of several factors for either part.  Gameplay wise, I refuse to fight bad mechanics, but I can live with repetetive combat/minigames.  Story wise, originality isn't exactly the biggest need for me, but it ABSOLUTELY has to be presented in a good way.

Mass Effect is a perfect example of the above.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Roanoke on August 25, 2009, 04:12:04 pm
gameplay. every time.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: blackhole on August 25, 2009, 04:25:34 pm
Gameplay is more important then story. Just look at mario. SAVE THE PRINCESS! SAVE THE PRINCESS! CLEAN UP DELFINO ISLA-OH WAIT SAVE THE PRINCESS AGAIN! JUMP AROUND ON PLANETS AND SAVE THE PRINCESS

That said, as long as you have awesome gameplay, a good storyline will only make your game better. The trouble starts when you start sacrificing gameplay for story, which one should never, ever do.

Games are a very unique medium for telling stories, and the best game's take advantage of this without forgetting that they are supposed to be fun. When these two elements combine, you can get some seriously amazing stuff. Cave story is a superb example of this.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: TrashMan on August 25, 2009, 04:43:07 pm
Both have to be good for me to like a game.

Both have to be excellent for the game to be a legend.

If either one lacks, I might still play the game a bit, but it won't be the game I return to.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Vidmaster on August 25, 2009, 05:31:47 pm
both of course. However, I tend to be more forgiving if the story is good than vise-versa.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 25, 2009, 07:17:36 pm
I actually had to click the reply button for once.

Play COD4, let me know what you think afterwards.
I did. It was fun, good AI. There was a story, but it really wasn't that big, imo. It was just there, you know, and not really interactive. I'll admit I enjoyed it. What about it?

So I was reading (http://www.gamespot.com/features/6214951/index.html) a Gamespot article [...]
Why would you do something as silly as that?  :P
I had time while so I decided to tweak my Gamespot settings instead, and ran across that one.

Seems like most people are divided on this.

I agree that if there is good gameplay it might contribute to a plot, but if the actually story is bad, the gameplay wouldn't be contributing much to the plot, would it? While normally a bad story can undoubtedly be rescued by excellent gameplay, it'd be different if the game relies on gameplay to expand on the story, like say Indigo Prophecy? For a game like that, the gameplay is essential for the story to be revealed. Most if not all are like that, but your interaction has little effect on the story, which moves along at its own pace.

I don't really know how to explain it, but that's what I think anyway.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Flipside on August 25, 2009, 08:24:48 pm
I'd also say the two are interlinked in the case of computer games to be honest, since the gameplay defines, to a large extent, how involved and enjoyable the story is. but, not so much a bad storyline, but a poorly executed one, can ruin it.

For me, I find wooden-sounding voice acting will kill a game for me very quickly, I can cope with low-range graphics, but if there's talking in the game, for God's sake, don't make it sound like it's being read from a blackboard by a Russian manic depressive. I prefer text to bad voice acting, possibly that's my audio background kicking in there though.

I'll say this though, a good story is more likely to make me tolerate bad gameplay, purely to find out what happens, but I'm not sure that would make it a good game, successful, certainly, but a good game needs to be able to balance the two, so the gameplay makes you feel you are participating in the story, and not simply trying to get to the next bit, and the story itself is compelling enough to make you want to get to the next bit.

The Morrowind series is a good example of balancing the two, whilst it's fun to perform the storyline, which is, as a whole, quite a good one, there's a lot of unrelated stuff that you can do purely to exploit the gameplay, and it's quite fun to do even with the storyline waiting for you to get back to it.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: BloodEagle on August 25, 2009, 08:40:02 pm
The only problem that I really have with Morrowind is that all of the areas seemed to be independently designed. E.g., there's no level balance between some nearby areas. This is especially prevalent around towns or in the first cave near Seyda Neen.

Side note: Pretty nice (if buggy) horror mod (http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1622).
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Flipside on August 25, 2009, 08:51:46 pm
I suppose, even with those problems, I still preferred Morrowinds style of tackling as much as you felt prepared to handle over Oblivions 'baby spoonfulls' concept. I use Martigens Monster Mod on Oblivion now, and it's improved it vastly, but I'd still say, of the two, that Morrowind is the better game as far as gameplay is concerned.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 25, 2009, 09:07:34 pm
... Oblivions 'baby spoonfulls' ...
You mean the levelled lists?
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Flipside on August 25, 2009, 09:21:01 pm
I think that's what they are called, yes, basically, the fact that, in Oblivion, the monsters level around the main character rather than the player having to level up to face them. It kind of made levelling pointless to a certain degree in my opinion.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: BloodEagle on August 25, 2009, 09:23:49 pm
I loathe level scaling. A lot. The worst part is when they scale the effectiveness of equipment. Nothing worse than finding out that that brand-spankin'-new frost shortsword would have been five times as strong if you'd waited three more levels.  :no:
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: mxlm on August 25, 2009, 09:32:08 pm
Any good gameplay tells a story, so it's kind of a false dichotomy.

Right, but not really a good story. I mean, I had lots of fun in the Battlefield mod Eve of Destruction taking unarmed NVA choppers and ramming them into fully loaded Hueys. Over and over again. So, what, 'kamikaze! Respawn! Kamikazee! Respawn! Kamikaze!'

I guess it's a story. It's just not a story I'd have the slightest interest in if I weren't the kamikaze.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Flipside on August 25, 2009, 09:36:39 pm
True, but was that Multiplayer? Because multiplayer games, I think, work differently to single player ones. Because it immediately becomes "What would happen if you took a bunch of bored kids and put them in this environment?", the answer would inevitably be various forms of 'Kamikase! Respawn!' depending on the game in question ;)
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 25, 2009, 09:40:03 pm
You mean the levelled lists?

The real problem was that NPCs did not level with the lists. Or you. Sure, guards are supposedly always five levels up on you, but tell it to the guy with the 40+ fire/lightning enchanted sword and see how hard he laughs.

Also, Morrowind did have leveled monster lists, but they were for wider brackets. And if you just go wandering in the Ghostfence at low levels you get what you deserve.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Scotty on August 25, 2009, 09:42:02 pm
Quote
The real problem was that NPCs did not level with the lists. Or you. Sure, guards are supposedly always five levels up on you, but tell it to the guy with the 40+ fire/lightning enchanted sword and see how hard he laughs.

Five levels?  Damn, a level 50 guard is a pushover!
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: General Battuta on August 25, 2009, 09:48:55 pm
Any good gameplay tells a story, so it's kind of a false dichotomy.

Right, but not really a good story. I mean, I had lots of fun in the Battlefield mod Eve of Destruction taking unarmed NVA choppers and ramming them into fully loaded Hueys. Over and over again. So, what, 'kamikaze! Respawn! Kamikazee! Respawn! Kamikaze!'

I guess it's a story. It's just not a story I'd have the slightest interest in if I weren't the kamikaze.


Yet you were the kamikaze and the story was certainly interesting.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 25, 2009, 09:55:03 pm
The real problem was that NPCs did not level with the lists. Or you. Sure, guards are supposedly always five levels up on you, but tell it to the guy with the 40+ fire/lightning enchanted sword and see how hard he laughs.
Eh. Guards are pussies. Good way to get money selling their gear though. Especially if you raid a guard house.

I agree levelled lists detracted from the 'living world' they were trying to create. Like in a real living world, what are the odds that a tiger would only attack you if you had a possibility of defeating it?
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 25, 2009, 09:59:37 pm
Five levels?  Damn, a level 50 guard is a pushover!

Word of god; guards always have five levels on you, except some of the named ones, who have only one.

I assume NPC leveling works differently or strength/endurance are their dump stats...
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Flipside on August 25, 2009, 10:04:53 pm
I've certainly never played through the main campaign without losing either Jauffre or Baurus in the final battle against the Daedra, which, I might add, is a bit of an anticlimax after the build-up, and yet still manage to get through that section in quite a healthy state myself. Maybe it's the fact that Alchemy is far too easy to grind in Oblivion and I'm carrying about 40-50 powerful restore health potions by that stage ;)
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 25, 2009, 10:39:16 pm
*snip*
My heavy armor + block speccing meant my endurance maxxed out long ago...

Back on topic. Oblivion had a nice story, I think. Helps that as one of the Champions, you are literally part of the story. The gameplay was also not bad. But the main reason for playing it is the openess of the world and the ability to do almost anything whenever, whereever you want.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Flipside on August 25, 2009, 10:43:30 pm
I suppose that's what I mean in a way, the story is compelling, but even without the story, just wandering into random sites, the gameplay alone holds the game together quite well, even with the levelled lists, that's why I consider it an example of a good mixture of the two, though admittedly, I don't think the game would hold together without the various stories in it at all, you could only face so many random encounters before you got bored.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 25, 2009, 11:42:08 pm
I suppose that's what I mean in a way, the story is compelling, but even without the story, just wandering into random sites, the gameplay alone holds the game together quite well, even with the levelled lists, that's why I consider it an example of a good mixture of the two, though admittedly, I don't think the game would hold together without the various stories in it at all, you could only face so many random encounters before you got bored.
So; again, you could say the story held it together.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Flipside on August 25, 2009, 11:51:57 pm
Well, pretty much anything that you play single player needs a story to hold it together, it's only when you go multiplayer that those rules change. But the thing is, the story is quite enjoyable, but even when you aren't following the story you are still having fun, the mechanics work to make an enjoyable game, which additionally has quite an interesting story to it. The two are interleaved, The gameplay wouldn't work for long without the story, but the story wouldn't work for long without the gameplay.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Ransom on August 26, 2009, 10:31:31 am
I think this bespeaks something of a miscommunication about what we mean by 'story'. Asteroids has no story, per se, but the gameplay certainly tells a story: you are surrounded, you are harried, you must move quickly to defeat obstacles. No matter how simple the gameplay task, the player is probably constructing a narrative to go with it: "I'm a hero, I'm so skilled, oh no this is impossible", etcetera and whatnot.

Take...Peggle. No plot whatsoever. But when you play, you're nonetheless spinning out a narrative of sorts - one built out of very small gameplay events (I succeeded! I did better than last time! Uh-oh, I'm not getting as many points as I used to). And that story is part of why the game becomes so addictive; the drive to constantly improve is powerful.

That's what I mean by 'all gameplay tells a story'. Gameplay mechanics must be invested with meaning and value in order to be enjoyable. This is why grinding in MMOs so often becomes objectionable; it feels sterile and unrewarding, a mere mechanical action in pursuit of an abstract goal.
No, no, I understood that. I concur with the observation - I've taken the same line of argument elsewhere - but the OP clearly equates 'story' with a hard narrative. It seems to be asking how a developer should weigh gameplay with directed storytelling. I think the emergent story that a player creates for themselves is a very different beast to the kind that is told and, while the best games manage to get them both to sing in harmony, it seems a bit dismissive to me to brush the whole thing off as a false dichotomy when you're essentially answering a different question to the one the OP asked.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: General Battuta on August 26, 2009, 10:45:58 am
Right, makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: TrashMan on August 26, 2009, 11:29:57 am
Oblivion? When the bandits jump at you in the most expensive armor in the game and demand 5 gold pieces?

Frankly, I played it cause I wanted to see the story. Wandering around was fun for a short while, but that's it.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Flipside on August 26, 2009, 11:35:56 am
It's not about personal opinion of the game though, that's the whole point, you wouldn't have been interested in the story if the gameplay was too awkward to make it worth working through it, you'd have looked it up on Wiki or the like. So the story maintains attention, but that is still heavily reliant on the gameplay being enjoyable enough to act as a storytelling device in the first place. I don't think there's any game of that sort that would work based purely on the random wandering, but the fact that the random wandering can and does work, even for a while, is evident that, regardless to what the story of Oblivion was (within reasonable limits, a good story would still be needed) it still would have been an enjoyable game to play.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Vidmaster on August 26, 2009, 03:08:14 pm
Oblivion is the first ElderScrolls game that HAS an engaging story. "Engaging" compared to Bethesda's other works.
Seriously, it's as tense as a Pong game without a ball  :). You never ever feel like the world is really in trouble, it's waiting nice and obedient to get saved if you got the time.

Games like MassEffect, Baldur's Gate 2, TheWitcher, Geneforge, hell, even KOTOR manage this so much better.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 27, 2009, 03:47:59 am
I play Freelancer more for the gameplay than for the story.

From what I've seen so far, Max Payne 2 balances both pretty well.

There's no real story in Duke Nukem 3D and Death Rally, so... :p
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 27, 2009, 08:29:59 am
*snip*
He's right. I know that every game, simply by playing through, will cause the player to 'see' a story, that they created themselves. That one can only be controlled so much by the story writers and designers. The 'story' referred to in the my first post means the one that can be controlled by the designers, i.e the underlying story that unfolds through cutscenes, scripted events, characters and the like, the one that they write and try to instill into the game.

Let's take an example we all know; ST and ST:R. ST had a story; of that there was no doubt. The thing is, you couldn't really see the story, hidden as it was behind the bad gameplay, plot holes, forgettable characters and various other issues. The story was very much on the backburner, and ST to me seemed like a bunch of random missions that they wrote before writing a story and linking them together.

ST:R, on the other hand, took that story, overhauled it, fixed it, put it to the forefront. You've all played the gameplay before; there's nothing new in terms of gameplay. You're there to see the story, and I'm pretty damn sure you all saw it, whether from nearly being Shivan-jacked or escorting the science cruisers.

The story I think you're referring to, General, is the one you experience through blowing up Lokis, panicking at the Shivan On A Fighter; the one each player writes for himself as he plays.

That story that I'm referring to, however, is the one written into the missions, through triggers, scripts and the like is the 'story' I'm referring to. The one that exists way before you play the game, and is there to give backbone and hopefully bring the game to life.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: TrashMan on August 27, 2009, 12:07:34 pm
I play Freelancer more for the gameplay than for the story.

I found the gameplay somewhat lacking. The story itself was medicore at best but I loved the execution.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Ziame on August 28, 2009, 03:46:14 am
Definatly gameplay. I like good story in game as well, but gameplay is higher priority. Eg. UFO had IMO weak story but gameplay made you drown in it. Civilizations have no story and are effing great. Heroes of Might and Magic 3 has a decent story... BUT THE GAMEPLAY EATS YOU WHOLE.

Not to mention games like Mount&Blade in which there's little story beside the one you make yourself.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Titan on August 28, 2009, 01:46:11 pm
Put it this way: I play games because they're games. Story helps, but if the gameplay sucks, then you might as well read a book.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Ransom on August 28, 2009, 02:38:18 pm
Books are not an interactive medium. It's not even close to the same thing. Gameplay's vital, but the assertion that games can't be a serious storytelling medium is nonsense.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: blackhole on August 28, 2009, 03:35:05 pm
Gameplay tells us which games are good - storylines tell us which games are legendary.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Stormkeeper on August 28, 2009, 08:02:31 pm
Gameplay tells us which games are good - storylines tell us which games are legendary.
QFT.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 29, 2009, 01:24:15 am
Gameplay's vital, but the assertion that games can't be a serious storytelling medium is nonsense.

You should know better. You made Transcend, after all. ;)

Gameplay of Transcend was rubbish in my opinion, but the story kept me going all the way to the end, even after I knew I was stuck in a Herc II with crap firepower.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on August 29, 2009, 02:59:29 am
Gameplay tells us which games are good - storylines tell us which games are legendary.

And yet most "classics" are deemed so because of their gameplay not their story.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: TrashMan on August 29, 2009, 04:29:38 am
For some games, story IS part of gameplay. Take Baldurs Gate 2 for instance.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: castor on August 29, 2009, 04:36:26 am
I take a good story as a nice extra, but gameplay and atmosphere are the key ingredients in those games I've bothered to spend more than miniscule time with.
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on August 29, 2009, 07:34:18 am
That and some games rely more on story than others do. RPGs for example. An RPG without a story is nothing at all (oops, that's WoW :P)
Title: Re: Gameplay or Story?
Post by: Ransom on August 29, 2009, 09:25:52 am
Gameplay of Transcend was rubbish in my opinion, but the story kept me going all the way to the end, even after I knew I was stuck in a Herc II with crap firepower.
Well, the appalling gameplay of Transcend is a reflection of my lack of mission design talent and is not indicative of any mutual exclusivity between gameplay and storytelling.

And yet most "classics" are deemed so because of their gameplay not their story.
Digital gaming is still a very young industry and, at least in this discussion, "classic" doesn't mean much. Narrative didn't really become a talking point in gaming until the late 90s. As far as storytelling goes, I think we're yet to see the best the format has to offer.

Besides which there are already games many would consider classics for their plot. The fact there are more classics defined by their gameplay isn't relevant - it's not a matter of numbers.