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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Woolie Wool on July 21, 2009, 08:44:11 am

Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Woolie Wool on July 21, 2009, 08:44:11 am
I always thought the VF-1s were ten times more awesome as swing-wing fighter jets than as giant robots and if Macross had kept the planes and giant robots as separate vehicles the show would have been better for it.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Narvi on July 21, 2009, 10:02:16 am
Quote from: Woolie Wool on July 21, 2009, 08:44:11 am
I always thought the VF-1s were ten times more awesome as swing-wing fighter jets than as giant robots and if Macross had kept the planes and giant robots as separate vehicles the show would have been better for it.

That's completely wrong.

You know why? A swing-wing fighter can't punch its opponent to death.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Woolie Wool on July 21, 2009, 11:52:46 am
I hate mecha melee fighting. Why would anyone even think about punching an enemy when they have a fully loaded gun? It's one of the reasons why Clan invasion-era Battletech is more interesting than most mecha universes: trying to get in close for a melee kill will usually result in your enemy PPCing your dumb ass.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Commander Zane on July 21, 2009, 12:30:45 pm
It's called "Running out of ammunition."
It happens in Macross. :rolleyes:
Run out of ammo, use your gun as a melee weapon, or use fisticuffs.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Aardwolf on July 21, 2009, 12:31:12 pm
But if they manage to get in close enough you can't reliably aim for a sweet spot, and they've got melee weapons (or can get their ranged weapons aimed better than you can) you're ****ed.

Edit: that too.

Edit the Second: Of course, unless you can lay down suppressive fire or otherwise keep the enemy from hitting you at range, you'll never make it close enough to get a melee hit in. The thing is, though, if you can force them to take cover while you rush in to engage in melee combat, you can force them to fight on your terms. Keep them from getting their gun pointed at you, and deliver the finishing blow.

It's the same logic behind having bayonets on modern automatic rifles.

Or the Galatea / GTD Orion class of Destroyer in our beloved FreeSpace universe. If all else fails, stab the ****ers.

Actually, Woolie Wool, I believe it was you who once argued with me over the practicality of melee combat in modern warfare, and took the opposite opinion.

Not to say that giant fighting robots are exactly like modern infantry, of course.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Woolie Wool on July 21, 2009, 12:38:00 pm
Quote from: Commander Zane on July 21, 2009, 12:30:45 pm
It's called "Running out of ammunition."
It happens in Macross. :rolleyes:
Run out of ammo, use your gun as a melee weapon, or use fisticuffs.

The proper strategy to use when you run out of ammo is to return to base for rearming, retreat from the combat zone, or failing that, surrender, because any other course of action ought to result in your death. Charging into melee range of an enemy armed with ranged weapons (especially when you're in a 40-foot-tall mech which makes concealment and stealth more or less impossible) is insane and I would really be happy if sci-fi properties stopped portraying this as a viable tactic.

Vehicle melee is stupid. Stupid. Stupid.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Woolie Wool on July 21, 2009, 12:40:10 pm
Quote from: Aardwolf on July 21, 2009, 12:31:12 pm
But if they manage to get in close enough you can't reliably aim for a sweet spot, and they've got melee weapons (or can get their ranged weapons aimed better than you can) you're ****ed.

Edit: that too.

That won't happen except in a one-in-a-million fluke chance. Stealth just isn't going to happen in a 40-ton vehicle (they're big, they're loud, and they run hot), so the enemy will know where you are, and he will shoot you (possibly while backing away, because, you know, the enemy's not going to cooperate with your whole melee plan), and you will die.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Narvi on July 21, 2009, 12:46:55 pm
Quote from: Woolie Wool on July 21, 2009, 11:52:46 am
I hate mecha melee fighting. Why would anyone even think about punching an enemy when they have a fully loaded gun? It's one of the reasons why Clan invasion-era Battletech is more interesting than most mecha universes: trying to get in close for a melee kill will usually result in your enemy PPCing your dumb ass.

It's an energy punch that slides through energy shields, obviously! Anyway, Macross ships have crazy durability and maneuverability, but close combat is still only an extreme last resort when it's time for the MAN IN TOWN to show those aliens WHO IS BOSS.

Mecha are silly anyway. They are just a stylistic choice, like Freespace and its non-newtonian superfighters. If you want to go with the complete realistic route, tanks would be the most plausible route. Mecha is fun only when punching is possible and (this part is important) cool-looking.

Since you bring up Battletech, I love how Battletech has mecha with so many disadvantages that it's not very clear why they even bother with them in the first place. Variable fighters are retarded on an engineering front, but their on-screen performance isn't; they do crazy g-forces and their transformations are quick, stuff like that. Battletech has fifty foot tall mecha which somehow aren't considered to be walking targets for artillery but are somehow considered instead to be prized military vehicles, which are astonishingly important to capture because of how awesome they are.

(I still love the Mad Cat Timber Wolf though.)
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Aardwolf on July 21, 2009, 12:50:21 pm
True, the larger you are, the worse your chances of using stealth. But I'm sure there could be special cases, even if this particular giant fighting robot series isn't the most plausible.

For example, what about 3 weaker mechs versus a single tougher mech easily capable of dispatching one of the weaker mechs in 1-on-1 combat. 2 of the weaker mechs could pin the bigger one down without putting themselves in danger, while the 3rd could move in for a kill. Of course, under such circumstances, a small-enough ranged weapon (think 'pistol', as opposed to a 'longsword') could probably be just as good.

This is all speculation though, and dependent on the specific giant fighting robot sci-fi.

However, in general I agree that melee weapons are better for defense or when you have the advantage of stealth.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Woolie Wool on July 21, 2009, 12:57:57 pm
To me, melee combat is just the straw that breaks the camel's back for me. Seeing vehicles or enemy soldiers arbitrarily close to melee range to beat up on each otther when they're heavily armed with projectile weapons makes me livid.

Also, I never said BattleTech wasn't silly, only that after the Clans showed up with their extended-range weapons, this particular peeve of mine pretty much disappeared. I can take the walking skyscrapers with giant lasers, but I can't take the walking skyscrapers with giant lasers using their fists instead of the aforementioned giant lasers. It's just...WHY? :mad:

As for the VF-1 in particular, the plane configuration is one of the coolest-looking planes in fiction history while the battr/loid really is just another giant robot, outclassed in coolness by many of the show's other giant robots, like that one mecha that was the inspiration for BTech's Rifleman.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Thaeris on July 21, 2009, 02:31:47 pm
Anything which draws inspiration from the F-14 is bound to be awesome. This is undisputable.

Walkers in modern (or futuristic) warfare is a fascinating discussion. Arguing away the impracticalities while trying to communicate an advantage is a great argument, to say the least. I recall a cadet-led briefing at the end of last semester in AF202 where one of the former cadets attempted to discuss the viability of the "giant fighting robot." I tried to "rip him a new one," but the Captain in charge of the class managed to avert the poor fellow's demise... I think he was using Gundam as an example.

Now, if your "giant fighting robot" can do as advertised on screen, maybe it could work. This involves super artificial muscle assemblies (pneumatics would be a joke for a system like that), a nuclear reactor (for those engines and RCS batteries that would be required for that sort of maneuvering... or power in general), a shield which would AT LEAST be used to somehow reduce air resistance (Ionic Breeze?), the ever-popular inertial dampner, artificial gravity (kind of the same as the inertial dampner), unobtanium, and last and most important, magic. If you can get those to work, by George, YOU CAN DO IT!

Otherwise, no.

Or can you? Some big bipedal (or more legs if necessary) machine can theoretically step over big obstructions which a smaller, smarter vehicle might have trouble with. Thus, a walker might be a valuable combat asset in rough terrain where it can hide its unwieldy shilouette. This might also apply to urban areas as well. But to operate in these environments, a walker would probably need to be lighter and smaller, probably more like a helicopter with legs. AND what I mean by this is that the walker's frame would only be enough to carry the engines, crew, and payload (hence the helicopter comparison). Since super-agility would imaginably not be attained, the walker would behave more like a legged tank, advancing with caution and relying on infantry support. And melee? It's possible to get swarmed by infantry with anti-tank weapons like charges. So sure, give it a few flame-throwers!  ;7

In general, I've not seen too many practical walkers from games or shows. If I had to choose one, I might well pick the Goliath from StarCraft. It actually matches my description of a practical walker in many regards, actually. Its high profile makes it a double-edged weapon (for itself and its adversaries) in urban areas (they have a hard time hiding... it does too), gives it good mobility, and it only carries what it needs. It carries a small gun used imaginably for picking off infantry (never seen in use in the game), cannon for larger ground targets (if it were real, aerial targets), and a missile battery. It also carries a single crewman.

It brings only what it needs to the battle...

But, just like StarCraft, if we do see combat walkers, ever, they'll probably be more like the powersuits used by Marines. Or perhaps like those suits seen in Ghost in the Shell...

Or maybe we'll ride on Boston Dynamic's Big Dog with a .50cal (Sandwich would approve)...

-Thaeris
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Narvi on July 21, 2009, 02:40:25 pm
It's rather annoying that most series with "realistic" walkers always assume that they are going to replace tanks, instead of simply filling a specialized combat role.

I rather like how MGS4 did it. Walkers only around twice the height of a man, deployed mainly within combat areas, and they serve the specific role of anti-insurgent warfare. Mind you, they were absurdly maneuverable.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Commander Zane on July 21, 2009, 04:36:26 pm
That moo. :P

Quote from: Woolie Wool on July 21, 2009, 12:38:00 pm
The proper strategy to use when you run out of ammo is to return to base for rearming, retreat from the combat zone, or failing that, surrender, because any other course of action ought to result in your death. Charging into melee range of an enemy armed with ranged weapons (especially when you're in a 40-foot-tall mech which makes concealment and stealth more or less impossible) is insane and I would really be happy if sci-fi properties stopped portraying this as a viable tactic.

Vehicle melee is stupid. Stupid. Stupid.
If they can dodge Itano Circus attacks to no end and the High-Maneuverability Missiles of Ghost fighters, and the massive barrages of 20mm, 30mm, etc rounds, while in Battroid mode, then melee combat is very possible for them. :P
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 21, 2009, 05:10:33 pm
Quote from: Woolie Wool on July 21, 2009, 08:44:11 am
I always thought the VF-1s were ten times more awesome as swing-wing fighter jets than as giant robots and if Macross had kept the planes and giant robots as separate vehicles the show would have been better for it.

The giant robot bit was specifically developed as a counterforce to a feared invasion of Zentradi infantry. The transformation makes them multi-role, always attractive to a military on a budget. Facing the possiblity of massive orbit-to-surface invasion, fixed bases cannot be relied upon to survive, so they developed G mode to provide all-terrain VTOL; arms were added so that they could reload each other in primitive field bases without needing specialized machinery that's not nearly as mobile as they are. The design is, considering what it was developed to counter, very rational.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Woolie Wool on July 21, 2009, 06:14:47 pm
The thing is, the more capabilities you give a piece of military hardware, the more it costs and the less useful it is for each of those capabilities. A Spartan ought to be able to massacre a whole squadron of Valkyries in B mode and a non-transforming Valkyrie ought to be able to massacre a whole squadron of Valkyries in A mode, due to the lack of transforming giving them more firepower, more armor, and more pretty much everything. Also a Zentraedi is a ridiculously large target. Men with laser pointers picking out targets for a battery of howitzers could defeat them (and if the Zentraedi blew up all your mobile artillery, you're already doomed anyway).

Also repairing and refitting huge war machines with hundreds if not thousands of moving parts requires specialized machinery no matter how many arms they have, unless the Valkyries have on-board fabs and magic fuel tanks that suck deuterium out of hammerspace. Giant metal sausage fingers really aren't very good for performing delicate maintenance anyway.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Commander Zane on July 21, 2009, 06:21:44 pm
Nope, just regular thermonuclear turbines. :P
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Thaeris on July 21, 2009, 06:45:56 pm
@NGTM-1R

That in itself is reasonable, though the mechanical engineers were either (a: most likely situation) driven to absolute madness or (b: this is not likely-at all-ever...) crazy enough to get a kick out of it. A real VF-1 would be an engineering nightmare, or rather, a marvel prone to failure at best...

One could try to argue that the VTOL function makes sense while in walker mode, as the legs are engines. However, safe transition to the fighter form while acting as a walker would be exceedingly dangerous. The RCS jets on the VF-1 would need to be ungodly powerful... and in a lot of weird/often unused places. Having the walker mode for ground-only combat (though you could probably manage this in space as well) while having the flight mode for everything else would make sense...

Of course...

There's another problem which transcends all issues of practicality. A real Japanese cartoon apparently needs at least one of three factors to be notable (hell, why not have all three?):

(a.): A strange, mystical power. Often with multiple other strange, mystical terms attached to it.

(b.): Some type of strange creature or creatures. This not only goes for cratoons, anime, or Japanamation, but films as well. GOOZILLAAHHH!

(c.): Robots. Lots of robots. Often of the giant fighting variety. They need not be practical or make sense. In this case, they may be compared to the lawn orb, which is neither practical or additive to the appaerance of a lawn or garden anywhere.

I will make a disclaimer for these statements (the three points)-I'm not sure they're completely true. But they are at least evidenced circumstantially. Furthermore, if I've offended you with the terms "Japanamation" or the misspelling of Godzilla, well, that is rather amusing then...

-Thaeris
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Commander Zane on July 21, 2009, 06:49:37 pm
You're forgetting the Love Triangle, every series of Macross has one. :nod:
And a very large variety of other shows that don't even have the other three points.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Thaeris on July 21, 2009, 06:58:14 pm
Disclaimer. (as seen above)

Many programs have one of those points regardless of being anime/Japanese or not. It's the factor which makes them unique and/or enjoyable. But you knew that...

For the best possible anime-spoofing experience, refer to Perfect Hair Forever.

-Thaeris
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 21, 2009, 07:51:01 pm
Quote from: Thaeris on July 21, 2009, 06:45:56 pm
One could try to argue that the VTOL function makes sense while in walker mode, as the legs are engines. However, safe transition to the fighter form while acting as a walker would be exceedingly dangerous.

That's why I specified Gerwalk/Guardian as the mode for VTOL. The half-and-half of it is the only feasible way to transition in atmosphere.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 22, 2009, 12:15:17 am
This is meant to be about Brand Xs render. Not another mecha plausibility thread. Split and move please. .
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Titan on July 22, 2009, 11:30:48 am
Dang, now I want to play the Macross Saga again...
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Mongoose on July 22, 2009, 12:40:10 pm
Quote from: Thaeris on July 21, 2009, 06:58:14 pm
For the best possible anime-spoofing experience, refer to Perfect Hair Forever.
Actually, PHF was a far better spoof of Williams Street/[adult swim] themselves than it was of anime, but that's a tale for another time. :p

So yeah.  Awesome model is awesome.  And I really need to see the original Macross at some point, because I rather enjoyed Macross Plus.  Itano being Itano is always win.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Narvi on July 22, 2009, 12:48:55 pm
Quote from: Mongoose on July 22, 2009, 12:40:10 pm
Quote from: Thaeris on July 21, 2009, 06:58:14 pm
For the best possible anime-spoofing experience, refer to Perfect Hair Forever.
Actually, PHF was a far better spoof of Williams Street/[adult swim] themselves than it was of anime, but that's a tale for another time. :p

So yeah.  Awesome model is awesome.  And I really need to see the original Macross at some point, because I rather enjoyed Macross Plus.  Itano being Itano is always win.

You should check out Frontier. It's new and good.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on August 30, 2009, 06:35:09 am
Quote from: Narvi on July 22, 2009, 12:48:55 pm
You should check out Frontier. It's new and good.


Hahahaha "new"? Yeah right.
I saw about 5 minutes of Frontier, the show practically used the storyboards from the original Macross. Can't they make a new bloody story instead of re-hasing and dumbing down the same one?????
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Narvi on August 30, 2009, 08:52:46 am
Quote from: Akalabeth Angel on August 30, 2009, 06:35:09 am
Quote from: Narvi on July 22, 2009, 12:48:55 pm
You should check out Frontier. It's new and good.


Hahahaha "new"? Yeah right.
I saw about 5 minutes of Frontier, the show practically used the storyboards from the original Macross. Can't they make a new bloody story instead of re-hasing and dumbing down the same one?????

Yeah, god forbid that the first episode of a show that premiered on the 25th anniversary of Macross includes a few callbacks to the original.  :doubt:

You don't even know what the plot is about, I bet.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 30, 2009, 03:10:00 pm
Macross is incapable of telling a good war story without getting crappy music, hackeyened love triangle, and psuedo-mystical bullcrap all over it. Frontier added new dimensions of suck with it Not Being Anyone's Fault.

On the other hand, it did have the Konig Monster.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Narvi on August 30, 2009, 04:12:23 pm
Bah, the music was good. And it's what the show is about.

Spoiler:
Anyway, I don't see any problems with a love triangle which is pretty obviously set up to end with a threesome.

Spoiler:
And what kind of pseudo-mystical bull**** does Macross peddle now? It has that weird theme of music being an outlet for love and emotion, but it isn't cheap about it like BSG is.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 30, 2009, 05:33:07 pm
No, actually Super Dimensional Fortress Macross was originally about making fun of Gundam and some other robot animes (witness the "falling into the cockpit" parody that was its first couple episodes). Then it was about making fun of the stupidities of Space Battleship Yamato and being ridiculously awesome. The music is a multi-series plot tumor resulting from having to give Minmei a reason why she could ever be of interest in comparison to lady Hayes. :P

The love triangle threesome setup is, at its best, highly subjective. Sure, I can see how you got that, but most people I've talked to see a clear Sheryl win ahead of it in the probablity rankings.

The use of singing as a battle tactic and the Jammer Birds/Sound Force come to mind from 7, and it's never quite recovered from that. Frontier is gleefully unrehabilitated, a giant step backwards from Zero.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on August 30, 2009, 06:12:01 pm
Quote from: Narvi on August 30, 2009, 08:52:46 am
Yeah, god forbid that the first episode of a show that premiered on the 25th anniversary of Macross includes a few callbacks to the original.  :doubt:

You don't even know what the plot is about, I bet.

No I can't say I do. The series hasn't been released in North America.

All I saw was some city fight with some Valkyries and some whatever aliens and I thought "oh, this is the part where Hikaru saves Minmei. He's going to fly up, his arm will get shot off and then he'll pull her into the cockpit" and then what happened? Oh exactly what I predicted. Except instead of pulling her into the cockpit he ejects from his fighter on a bungie cord, grabs her in mid air and then the cord retracts. What the hell is that crap???

And the aliens. Well, see the thing is if they're doing the same story, which, essentially it looks like they are. Then having some "creatures" instead of the Zentraedi is kinda lame because instead of having any sort of morality like "we're fighting aliens that just look like humans" they're fighting some monsters and no one cares if they get slaughtered.

So basically same story, but crappier, from what I can tell.


I'll give it a chance when it hits North America, I'll probably even buy the thing. After all I've seen every other Macross except Macross 7, and I own most of them. But the latest one I saw, Macross Zero was pretty much crap. Frontiers look very good, but it looked like what I already own so . . . if that turns out to be case in full I'll be disappointed.

Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Commander Zane on August 30, 2009, 06:39:14 pm
I enjoyed Frontier a lot, the capabilities of the Messiah are awesome.
Title: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Unknown Target on August 30, 2009, 11:14:42 pm
I watched thirty seconds of Frontier and gave up. Wait, I lie, I saw some Youtube AMV's...and instantly gave up. Teeny bopper super bright 18 year old somehow becomes a fighter pilot bull****, with music somehow being a magical superweapon; instead of an interesting plot device in the original show, Macross began turning into a weekly music video with robots. Screw that.

Macross Plus was the last gasp of a truly decent Macross show; Macross Zero blew (storyline was AWFUL, combat was good), 7 and Frontier are just terrible IMO.

EDIT: Also, spliting and moving.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Flaser on August 30, 2009, 11:55:03 pm
Quote from: Narvi on July 21, 2009, 02:40:25 pm
It's rather annoying that most series with "realistic" walkers always assume that they are going to replace tanks, instead of simply filling a specialized combat role.

I rather like how MGS4 did it. Walkers only around twice the height of a man, deployed mainly within combat areas, and they serve the specific role of anti-insurgent warfare. Mind you, they were absurdly maneuverable.

You're confusing the "real robot" genre with "realistic robot". Real robot shows merely handled mecha as another weapon platform, but at heart (mainly due editor/producer interference and fanwank) were still initially "kidshows" and later on retained a lot of these aspects because producers needed the gimmicks to sell the show.

However there are a couple of "realistic" robot shows out there: Gasaraki is a prime example and the GITS mechas are the ur-example.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: QuantumDelta on August 30, 2009, 11:57:57 pm
Macross is the best mecha anime period.
And if you actually watched the series Unknown you'd know that the main character doesn't "suddenly somehow become a fighter pilot" -> he's been learning to be a pilot for ages, and is a natural at it, fighter pilot however - he learns during the series, his skills develop subtly as the series go, where you see the veterans use the variable forms of the crafts they use regularly at the start he barely does, HE gets drafted in cuz he's determined, and it's less of a security risk since he's seen stuff he's not supposed to have, also vaguely because he saved the squadron leaders little sister.
It's really only by the last episode that he's 'one of the elite', there is an episode where he dukes it out with the best pilot in the squadron and they just about draw (the main character loses).

The songs absolutely rock and the grand finale of the series is one of those "all things topping" moments.
Sure, it's not the same series as SDF, and Song/Fold wave 'power' is mostly developed in Macross 7, but god damn, in it's own little universe it fits, and it rocks.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 31, 2009, 12:15:22 am
The ur-example of realistic robots is VOTOMS. (They aren't even really designed to move that much, if you look at the Scopedog's design; it's totally dependant on the wheels in its feet for any real kind of movement.) The ultrarealistic approach is Patlabor. :P

Quote from: QuantumDelta on August 30, 2009, 11:57:57 pm
Macross is the best mecha anime period.
And if you actually watched the series Unknown you'd know that the main character doesn't "suddenly somehow become a fighter pilot" -> he's been learning to be a pilot for ages, and is a natural at it, fighter pilot however - he learns during the series, his skills develop subtly as the series go, where you see the veterans use the variable forms of the crafts they use regularly at the start he barely does, HE gets drafted in cuz he's determined, and it's less of a security risk since he's seen stuff he's not supposed to have, also vaguely because he saved the squadron leaders little sister.
It's really only by the last episode that he's 'one of the elite', there is an episode where he dukes it out with the best pilot in the squadron and they just about draw (the main character loses).

Granted I'll be the first one to attribute credit to the machine rather than man, I got started early with Amuro's Gundam and low-rent Char's Zechs' Tallgeese, but let's face it. Rick/Hikaru's first foray into flying a Veritech is basically the most realistic portrayal of what would happen transitioning from civilian craft or even military trainers direct to a frontline fighter, much less one as new and capable as the VF-25.

Staying in one form is frankly the mark of a better pilot than you seem to realize. Simply because you have the capablity doesn't mean you should be using it. As I noted earlier the first VFs were developed specifically as a counterforce to a feared orbit-to-surface invasion of Zentradi infantry. They stayed in service because they offered a variety of unique but, except for orbit-to-surface attack and defense, niche roles on a platform that was also a solid aerospace fighter. Max made his name in B form because he knew how to utilize that particular one for every tiny bit of manuverablity that could squeezed out of the VF-1. Rick/Hikaru made his name in F because that was the form most suited to the battles he fought (it's a further mark of Max's crazy awesome that he managed to do so well fighting in what's really the wrong mode).

The series doesn't present us situations in which rapidly cycling through available modes offers a serious advantage (except for the Konig Monster, because it's flight form apparently can't shoot and really looks dumb, but it's the only way to move), it just does it and tells us it's an advantage. That's bull****. It's also the only detectable change in skill level.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Woolie Wool on August 31, 2009, 12:19:45 am
Quote from: Unknown Target on August 30, 2009, 11:14:42 pm
I watched thirty seconds of Frontier and gave up. Wait, I lie, I saw some Youtube AMV's...and instantly gave up. Teeny bopper super bright 18 year old somehow becomes a fighter pilot bull****, with music somehow being a magical superweapon; instead of an interesting plot device in the original show, Macross began turning into a weekly music video with robots. Screw that.

Macross Plus was the last gasp of a truly decent Macross show; Macross Zero blew (storyline was AWFUL, combat was good), 7 and Frontier are just terrible IMO.

EDIT: Also, spliting and moving.
If you want to set giant robot battles to music, I'd think a lot of these shows would be better off using heavy metal than J-Pop. Especially power metal, and especially power metal that sounds like Iron Maiden. Because music like this this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSJ8rDlBZ_I) just seems born to be set to giant battles full of things blowing up.:p

In the later Macross series, did they at least have non-hero units be depicted as actually killing anyone? The brown redshirt Valkyries in the original Macross never did anything but get blown up over and over and over.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 31, 2009, 12:29:27 am
Quote from: Woolie Wool on August 31, 2009, 12:19:45 am
In the later Macross series, did they at least have non-hero units be depicted as actually killing anyone? The brown redshirt Valkyries in the original Macross never did anything but get blown up over and over and over.

I actually counted once. The redshirt Valkyries got about fifty kills in the series, nearly all in the missile spam phase of the engagement. The real shocker was that several of them got kills engaging the Quadronos and their power armor, which is pretty much the only episode where they scored cannonfire kills. (Though most of them didn't survive it.)

Zero had the Destroids (the ****in' Destroids man!) give an enemy ace a run for his money, but not much else. Frontier's redshirts pulled the Standard Redshirt Manuver though. No kills that I remember. Plus didn't even have any redshirts that stick in my memory. I refuse to discuss 7.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: QuantumDelta on August 31, 2009, 12:42:44 am
The transformations in Frontier (and in 7 and plus to lesser extents, haven't seen SDF/DYRL/etc for ages) are used to kill the pilots drastically alter the trajectory and speed of the craft, they also improve cannon/missile FoVs and shifts between forms by the better pilots tend to be done on a few second basis to avoid/shoot down missiles, to emergency stop, to get the upper hand on an opponent in a dogfight rather than trying to simply out manoeuvre him "the old fashioned way".

The suit the character is wearing is actually a military design originally, it's a stunt-flight pilot suit adapted for those purposes which is why it 'works' with the VF-25, would surprise that it actually worked cuz you'd expect it to be encoded but hey, suspension of disbelief.
And on top of that really the first flight is more frantic/hectic and although it ends well is hardly anything other than an amateur screaming at the controls with some natural talent getting lucky.

Whilst I realise 'it's not gonna be easy' you have to realise there's a large time gap between that epic first time out in a veritech and Alto's flight - veritech aren't new, they're the staple of the defence force and that means everyone who wants to know about them /knows a lot/ about them.
It's in their films and stuff, so he's going to be vaguely familiar with how it works before even seeing it for real, let alone getting into it, his first couple comments elude to that.

The somewhat out-of-universe unrealistic thing about that first flight for Alto was it was in one of the ace's craft which meant it had one of the special packs on it which he would have had no idea how to handle more than likely.
If it's any consolation I didn't much enjoy Minmei in SDF/DYRL, It was Plus, Zero and 7 that allowed me to enjoy Frontier for what it is, music is embedded in that shows reality, and the song 'power' thing seems to be related to fold waves.
.......Which makes sense considering it relates us to the Proto-culture AND the Zentradi AND the Vajra AND the Proto-Devilin (or whatever they were called, I tried not to pay TOO much attention to 7 and just sort of ran with it it's definitely the worst of the macross franchise), meaning all life is to some small degree fold-wave sensitive (though it's obviously not the original intent in SDF, in the slightest).
Song is just an ultra-cool (well, imo) way of doing it.
WH40K has Psykers, Star Trek has lots of random ways of tying you to the universe(including a Galactic Progenitor race?)/opponents you'll meet, even Freespace has hints at a commonality between all of the mentioned species and organisation so far :P


Frontier doesn't really 'show' any enemy kills by non-heros but you know that it happens because of the scale of the battles, most of the flashy stuff is on screen by the NUNS/SMS though.

Macross Frontier really topped the franchise even if most of it is fanwank, if you watched the rest of the franchise and can enjoy it for it's own sake rather than what you want it to be then Frontier is an amazing offering, and the fans did eat it up.
Nevermind the fact that Mei Nakabayashi is one of the best female singers I've ever listened to which just adds to it moreso than Plus or 7 did.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 31, 2009, 01:04:11 am
Quote from: QuantumDelta on August 31, 2009, 12:42:44 am
Whilst I realise 'it's not gonna be easy' you have to realise there's a large time gap between that epic first time out in a veritech and Alto's flight - veritech aren't new, they're the staple of the defence force and that means everyone who wants to know about them /knows a lot/ about them.
It's in their films and stuff, so he's going to be vaguely familiar with how it works before even seeing it for real, let alone getting into it, his first couple comments elude to that.

That's like saying you should know how to fly a modern jet by watching movies.

It's complete bull****.

I'm willing to give Alto the benefit of the doubt and say he has experience on military trainers even, but a straight transition to a military-grade variable fighter as smoothly as he pulls is flat impossible. Rick/Hikaru would have had it easier; a first-generation VF would have been more like a jet aircraft than later models simply because it's closer in lineage (and performance). Alto doesn't even have that to fall back on.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: QuantumDelta on August 31, 2009, 01:25:54 am
Not know how, but you can get a fair idea of how you can expect a Harrier to work from some air time it's had, and arguably it's one of the hardest craft to fly even today.
Whilst systems and internals are perhaps completely unclear -> Alto has a background in it, so is again more likely to be familiar with it too.
Whilst never having been in one it's not that much of a jump when you consider everything else you see from him in the series.
...And being honest, I'd argue that whilst it might get more complicated, I'd imagine that variable fighters would become more intuitive over time, not less.
I think i'll re-watch the first ep again and pay attention to his commentary as he climbs in.

He doubts himself until he gets in.
When he gets in his suit auto-integrates with the fighter.
He never changes out of the half-transformed state, and he never fights back, spends most of his time skitting around.
The most disbelievable thing he does before(other than) the final moment of the chase is pick Ranka up with the fighter's arm, which would have to take a phenomenal amount of skill (he is shown to be concentrating on it a lot).
Seems the crap he flies at the academy and the VF-25 are based on the same tech, he is the top of his class in 'pilot school' though.
The second chance, he asks to go out in another VF-25 and gets decked by the squadron leader and thrown out :P
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on August 31, 2009, 01:48:27 am
Quote from: Unknown Target on August 30, 2009, 11:14:42 pm
Macross Plus was the last gasp of a truly decent Macross show; Macross Zero blew (storyline was AWFUL, combat was good), 7 and Frontier are just terrible IMO.

Macross Zero combat was good? Um, no it wasn't. The atmospheric dogfights were unrealistic. Someone needs to learn how to animate.

There was about 10 seconds of awesomeness in Macross Zero. And that's when the Mac II stepped out onto deck and fired a volley.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Narvi on August 31, 2009, 03:30:18 am
Quote from: NGTM-1R on August 30, 2009, 05:33:07 pm
No, actually Super Dimensional Fortress Macross was originally about making fun of Gundam and some other robot animes (witness the "falling into the cockpit" parody that was its first couple episodes). Then it was about making fun of the stupidities of Space Battleship Yamato and being ridiculously awesome. The music is a multi-series plot tumor resulting from having to give Minmei a reason why she could ever be of interest in comparison to lady Hayes. :P

The love triangle threesome setup is, at its best, highly subjective. Sure, I can see how you got that, but most people I've talked to see a clear Sheryl win ahead of it in the probablity rankings.

The use of singing as a battle tactic and the Jammer Birds/Sound Force come to mind from 7, and it's never quite recovered from that. Frontier is gleefully unrehabilitated, a giant step backwards from Zero.

The original conception does not necessarily matter compared to how it eventually ended up. :P

And, my god, Zero was terrible. It started out good but then... bam, terrible!

Plus would technically be good, if all the characters weren't such douchebags.

Quote from: Akalabeth Angel on August 30, 2009, 06:12:01 pm
Quote from: Narvi on August 30, 2009, 08:52:46 am
Yeah, god forbid that the first episode of a show that premiered on the 25th anniversary of Macross includes a few callbacks to the original.  :doubt:

You don't even know what the plot is about, I bet.

No I can't say I do. The series hasn't been released in North America.

All I saw was some city fight with some Valkyries and some whatever aliens and I thought "oh, this is the part where Hikaru saves Minmei. He's going to fly up, his arm will get shot off and then he'll pull her into the cockpit" and then what happened? Oh exactly what I predicted. Except instead of pulling her into the cockpit he ejects from his fighter on a bungie cord, grabs her in mid air and then the cord retracts. What the hell is that crap???

And the aliens. Well, see the thing is if they're doing the same story, which, essentially it looks like they are. Then having some "creatures" instead of the Zentraedi is kinda lame because instead of having any sort of morality like "we're fighting aliens that just look like humans" they're fighting some monsters and no one cares if they get slaughtered.

So basically same story, but crappier, from what I can tell.


I'll give it a chance when it hits North America, I'll probably even buy the thing. After all I've seen every other Macross except Macross 7, and I own most of them. But the latest one I saw, Macross Zero was pretty much crap. Frontiers look very good, but it looked like what I already own so . . . if that turns out to be case in full I'll be disappointed.



The series is never going to get released in North America. There's a huge rights kerfluffle over it. And the main character can fly. He's got this whole flight-suit dealy, so it's less stupid than it looks.

Yes, Zero had the worst ending in the world.

Look, the evil bug alien thing is actually handled pretty well. They aren't Zentraedi, and how they're dealt with is somewhat different, but it's not like the show considers it okay to kill them just because they're evil bug aliens. They actually get some characterization, despite being aliens. It's one of the biggest sources of drama in the show, where there are people who just want to kill the bugs and those who... don't.
Spoiler:
Hell, there's even a big-ass conspiracy in the shadows.

Hell, even the whole combat singing thing got a bunch of strings attached.

Stuff like this only really becomes apparent like ten episodes in though. It's kinda bland before that. Not bad, bland.

Quote from: Flaser on August 30, 2009, 11:55:03 pm
Quote from: Narvi on July 21, 2009, 02:40:25 pm
It's rather annoying that most series with "realistic" walkers always assume that they are going to replace tanks, instead of simply filling a specialized combat role.

I rather like how MGS4 did it. Walkers only around twice the height of a man, deployed mainly within combat areas, and they serve the specific role of anti-insurgent warfare. Mind you, they were absurdly maneuverable.

You're confusing the "real robot" genre with "realistic robot". Real robot shows merely handled mecha as another weapon platform, but at heart (mainly due editor/producer interference and fanwank) were still initially "kidshows" and later on retained a lot of these aspects because producers needed the gimmicks to sell the show.

However there are a couple of "realistic" robot shows out there: Gasaraki is a prime example and the GITS mechas are the ur-example.

You forgot Patlabor.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on August 31, 2009, 03:33:52 am
Quote from: Narvi on August 31, 2009, 03:30:18 am
The series is never going to get released in North America. There's a huge rights kerfluffle over it.

Is it Harmony ****ing gold again?

See that's the thing. Harmony Gold had the rights to Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada and with that they created Robotech.

But why would they have rights to Macross 7, Zero, Plus, Frontier, II or Macross the Movie????
I honestly don't get it. Different shows. Different designs. Etcetera and so on . . .  can't be any worse that Robotech: Shadow Chronicles, which I think was okay except the only thing I remember from that movie is every woman on it had huge breasts. I mean, make one woman voluptous, sure, but every one of them?? bleah . . .

Or is it something else????
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Narvi on August 31, 2009, 04:49:47 am
Oh, that too. But it's also got to do with the songs rights. Again, it is huge and complicated and beyond the ken of mortal men.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: TrashMan on August 31, 2009, 05:35:28 am
Quote from: Thaeris on July 21, 2009, 02:31:47 pm
Anything which draws inspiration from the F-14 is bound to be awesome. This is undisputable.

Hear, hear!

That said, I don't really recall VF-1's fighting in melee in Macross/Robotech. They'd usually avoid it.
And when they did it it was usually in an area where it could be done. (like towns. hiding behind a building and clobering an enemy as he passes the corner - you can do that in real life)
That said, VF-1's were crazily manuverable and they could close distances extreemly fast (they're friggin supersonic jets. By the time you raise your gun it's already behind you).
Also, Macross is not about music. At least it wasn't. The Zentradi were already on the fence in regards to fighting or joining humans. And since most never heard music, it was a good method to confuse them or push them off the fence. As such it's use actually had some sense.
The sequels turned the power of music and love into a universal weapon. Don't even get me started on that HORRIBLE Macross 7 and rock stars flying fighters with guitars.
Zero had a crappy story, but I liked Roy and the battles were awesome.

To quote The SpoonyOne: "Macross 7 sucks and you suck for liking it!"


***
The thing irks me the most about giant robots is the CONTROLS. Especially when several viechles/mecha merge into one robot. How the hell do you control such thing with any precision?
I liked the way VoE did it - mecha were somewhat sluggish because there was a lot of mass to move. And they way  they were controlled made sense.

Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Ghostavo on August 31, 2009, 08:20:20 am
I've always found Full Metal Panic's interpretation of mechas to be more realistic (apart from the whole lambda drive thing) than Gundam's or Macross. Of course this being anime, realism is still very far away.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on August 31, 2009, 08:23:49 am
Armoured Trooper Votoms and/or Heavy Gear is the most realistic I've seen. Military-application wise anyway.

Though I've not seen FMP.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Commander Zane on August 31, 2009, 08:36:31 am
Heavy Gear's realism comes from the fact that you're piloting basically an armored suit, it's practical, and being anything from three meters tall at the smallest up to six meters tall at the largest, it's a lot more possible.

Although realism game-wise, Heavy Gear 1 was where it was at, it was very difficult to get a light chassis to hold a Snub Cannon or the Light Railgun, Heavy Gear 2 botched it all up by making it possible for something like the Cheetah hold a ****ing Very Light Field Cannon and Very Heavy Autocannon on the same loadout and still go its top speed.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Flaser on September 01, 2009, 08:28:38 am
Humongous mecha will never make sense. It's just too damn big. Both as a target and as mass to haul around. Another thing I don't get is why almost no-one designs non-humanoid mecha (beside GITS and the short by Studio 4C called Higan).

The tank is the best ground based weapon platform to take ground. (Artillery will be always more powerful and holding ground is infantry's specialty). If you make advances in robotics and/or mechatronics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechatronics) (this is an actual field of engineering, but instead building mecha it's a fusion of mechanic and electronic engineering and focuses on the controls of integrated systems) why don't you upgrade/redesign the tank first and foremost?

In any era where you'd have mecha - the most likely role is in logistics, S&R, and hauling artillery and AA through impossible terrain - and power armor (which would pretty much function as how mecha is portrayed in anime) you'd have tanks and AFVs that will put our current hardware to shame. They'd have very nimble and sturdy locomotion, redundant transmission systems and an integrated weapons suite that will be death to anything the operator so much as "blinks" at funny (or anything if he puts it on "all-targets-assumed-hostile" mode).
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Roanoke on September 01, 2009, 03:13:46 pm
I liked Macross Zero. I enjoyed watching VFs launch from an aircraft carrier. The story was a bit odd, not helped by really inconsistent subtitles but I wasn't really bothered tbh.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: StarSlayer on September 01, 2009, 08:46:41 pm
I liked the tanks from the 2nd GitS SAC episode that got blown up at the very begining, they looked like a modern MBT that could actually convert its transmission to walk on its treads. 
(http://i27.tinypic.com/2luetxt.png)
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 01, 2009, 10:05:08 pm
Quote from: Narvi on August 31, 2009, 03:30:18 am
The original conception does not necessarily matter compared to how it eventually ended up. :P

And, my god, Zero was terrible. It started out good but then... bam, terrible!

Actually, it does. Gundam said so. :P (One of the main reasons 00 and Seed were/are bad is because they lost the formula.)

Zero had massive, gaping plotholes simply by existing, but it was the only series that ditched the singing except for a few, easily stomache'd songs. I had high hopes about the direction it appeared to be taking the franchise with less song-based bullcrap. :P Whatever else it did, that was rehabiliating the series.

Then Frontier goes back to it. Goddammit.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Thaeris on September 02, 2009, 09:31:40 pm
I'm going to have to agree with StarSlayer on the tank design, there. Still very mechanically complex and thus undoubtably fragile, but such a configuration could be a great help in urban combat situations where heavy debris could inhibit mobility. And, if the tank commander deemed raising the shilouette would be a good idea, he might be able to achieve some helicopter-like abilities such as popping up to take a shot from cover, crouching back down to normal height, then moving to a different position. I'd love to see that in action in a non-over-the-top series... but non-over-the-top is almost counter-anime... A more plausible design might be derived from wheeled multi-limbed rovers being studied by NASA at this time. In the next 20 years I would not at all be surprised to see new MBT designs with wheels instead of treads.

In any sense, Ghost in the Shell has to be one of the best mixes between plausible tech and pure fancy. It's the only series I've seen that could bring back the anti-tank rifle... and make it awesome! (no, the sniper rifle from Gurren Lagann doesn't count!)

Regardless, as pure walkers go, the "power suit" (you know the iterations... StarCraft, Ghost in the Shell, Warhammer even...) will inevitable be a reality in some form, I'm certain. Other than that, the farthest I'd go is for something like the Goliath from SC. But, I've said that before...

-Thaeris
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Roanoke on September 04, 2009, 03:41:45 pm
so, uh, why do we hate Macross Zero ?  :nervous:
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: QuantumDelta on September 04, 2009, 04:15:47 pm
Quote from: Roanoke on September 04, 2009, 03:41:45 pm
so, uh, why do we hate Macross Zero ?  :nervous:
Raging mecha fans who don't really care about plots :P, wanting Macross to return to the original SDF micky-take formula rather than the genre defining brilliance it became.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Mongoose on September 04, 2009, 05:00:25 pm
I do find the wangsting about Macross's infatuation with music to be a bit amusing, since from all accounts, the song sequence in the film Macross: Do You Remember Love is considered by many old-timers to be one of the defining moments of anime as a whole.  I tend to very much favor the Rule of Cool myself, so I'd probably agree with them. :p
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 04, 2009, 06:32:46 pm
Quote from: Roanoke on September 04, 2009, 03:41:45 pm
so, uh, why do we hate Macross Zero ?  :nervous:

Giant Space Mecha From Nowhere when we had a perfectly serviceable revenge/war plot going already.

...and of course the girl who freaked out because the UN brought, y'know, electric lighting to her village. (Particularly in that environment, where you could just have walked about a half-mile, or less, and been in total darkness again.) That was a real low point.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Stormkeeper on September 08, 2009, 04:10:10 am
... I thought this was about the plausibility of giant robots in combat. But it seems like a disucssion over Macross now...
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Roanoke on September 08, 2009, 04:30:09 pm
Quote from: NGTM-1R on September 04, 2009, 06:32:46 pm
Quote from: Roanoke on September 04, 2009, 03:41:45 pm
so, uh, why do we hate Macross Zero ?  :nervous:

Giant Space Mecha From Nowhere when we had a perfectly serviceable revenge/war plot going already.

...and of course the girl who freaked out because the UN brought, y'know, electric lighting to her village. (Particularly in that environment, where you could just have walked about a half-mile, or less, and been in total darkness again.) That was a real low point.

uh, i think you missed the point there ? Sara (I think ?) wanted the village to be isolationist and shun technology after that Dr dude got a hold of her blood, betaying her shamen oath. Doesn't seem so crappy to me ?
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Thaeris on September 09, 2009, 12:41:26 pm
Well, this was a thread originally split from discussion of the VF-1 fighter in terms of practicality. It's inherently Macross to some degree.

If I'll propose a "practical" walker again, picture this: You're dealing with incredibly rocky terrain - probably mountainous. I'm envisioning something like a modern MBT with six legs. On the legs themselves are a set of "retractible wheels" which can be lowered when on normal, traversable terrain. The legs are "simple," they only have one joint on the "leg" itself; this does not include the sliding mechanism found on the wheel assembly or the attachment to the hull of the tank. Mechanical operation is via "synthetic muscle;" hydraulics for a practical walker would be either too slow or fragile for combat work. Wheel power would be electric. The tank would thus have a conventional engine turning a generator to supply power to the limbs/wheels.

Long range is questionable... If you're operating in a mountain range, you're going to be using a LOT of energy to get around. On open ground, the vehicle might be outplaced by conventional tanks in terms of overall mobility due to the wheels. Because of the wheels, it might be faster, though. And because the wheels are on legs, you'd have uber-suspension. Of course, comfort is not the primary concern of a combat vehicle.

Operationally, the vehicle might have similar capabilities as noted in my prior post. However, I really do like the possible application for mountain troops. On a smaller scale, picture something like a jeep-sized "Big Dog" with six legs. Now, mount an infantry-howitzer on it. Now, the troops aren't weighed down with carrying a pack gun and its ammunition. Now, it carries itself! I wouldn't be surprised to see things like that in the future.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Mongoose on September 09, 2009, 02:51:22 pm
Most of what you mentioned there sounds a lot like the multi-ped tanks that Shirow Masamune came up with in his Ghost in the Shell universe.  I've always looked on them as being one of the more practical fictional examples of walker-type vehicles.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Thaeris on September 09, 2009, 03:00:30 pm
Yalp. I noted the image StarSlayer posted and figured that was actually quite reasonable in many ways.  :)

I've just been "imagineering" some better methods to that concept.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: SpardaSon21 on September 09, 2009, 04:19:16 pm
I always thought a somewhat-plausible mecha design were the Landmates from the Appleseed movies.  Well, they are if you remove the handwavium-powered flight.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 09, 2009, 05:02:05 pm
The Landmates are actually powered armor, tbh.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: SpardaSon21 on September 09, 2009, 06:09:44 pm
Big powered armor.

Hey, I think those are the closest we are ever going to get to mecha.  Any bigger and maneuverability starts to suffer, and maneuverability is one of the best reasons to use a bipedal chassis.  If its un-maneuverable, why are you using a bipedal chassis when a treaded chassis can carry more guns and armor for same maneuverability?
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: TrashMan on September 10, 2009, 04:43:48 am
Who needs a tank when you can have a helicopter provide air support? At least when it comes to mountains, choopers >>> tanks/mecha
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 10, 2009, 04:51:07 am
Quote from: TrashMan on September 10, 2009, 04:43:48 am
Who needs a tank when you can have a helicopter provide air support? At least when it comes to mountains, choopers >>> tanks/mecha

Helicopters do not like small arms fire.

Tanks however bathe in it.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Scotty on September 10, 2009, 04:06:42 pm
That's one way of putting it.  You could say they were allergic to bullets.  Helicopters may be mobile, but they are fragile, in any military sense of the word.  Tanks may be decidedly unfragile, but they can't get to near as many places.  'Mechs, plausible or not, provide a middle ground.

That and a walking tank is just frickin awesome. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool)
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Narvi on September 10, 2009, 04:45:10 pm
Wouldn't it be easier just to make an extendible turret or summat?
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Scotty on September 10, 2009, 04:45:50 pm
Doesn't affect mobility.  The tank can still only go so many places.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: bizzybody on September 14, 2009, 03:51:14 am
The more things you try to make a single machine do, the worse it is at any of them. Look up the Main Battle Tank 70 project. It quickly became over complex, over sized, over weight, over budget, overly fragile and too frigging slow on any terrain. The prototype became an exercise in everything NOT to have in a main battle tank. IIRC, the designers of the M1 Abrams used the MBT 70 as an anti-inspirational device. ;)

Now take the MBT 70 concept, give it powerful jet engines, wings and the ability to transform into a giant robot...

Another exercise in military hardware over enthusiasm was the Crusader artillery piece. The idea was spiffy. A single gun that could automatically adjust angle and firing times to simultaneously drop eight shells on a single target. Very un-spiffy was the thing was too big to be airlifted by a C5-A Galaxy and too heavy to be able to cross most of the bridges in its expected theater of operations, which it would have to be transported to by ship. Kudos to Rumsfeld for axing the waste of money. There's a fire and forget round for the M1 that can do the same job for a lot less money.

For fictional silly, David Drake's hovertanks. They seem like they'd be cool, but I can think of many ways to defeat them. Immobilizing them would be easy with a dry moat covered with a metal grid. If they got over the grid they'd drop onto it since the air would just blow through. Immobile non-hovering tanks. Another method, pop up mines that blast horizontally just above the ground to punch lots of holes through the tanks' metal skirts. *thud* More immobile targets. Depending on how well the fans are protected from threats above and below... mines that pop up fast enough to get past the anti-personnel charges then fire something downwards through the fans. IIRC one of the books has a scene where a mechanic is under a tank working and he can see the fans. Hellooooo, big minefields that blast lots of shrapnel upwards. They wouldn't even need any electronics, just an air pressure driven trigger to pop a percussion detonator.

The anime I've seen that has the best excuse for giant mecha* fisticuffs is Evangelion, but that's only because some of the 'angels' they fight are expressly intended to close to beat-em-up range with the EVAs.

*But of course they're actually giant organic humanoid constructs wearing powered armor/restraint suits.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: TrashMan on September 14, 2009, 10:02:41 am
Quote from: NGTM-1R on September 10, 2009, 04:51:07 am
Helicopters do not like small arms fire.

Then give them some armor. It's not like they can't carry it.

Really, as much as I like mecha, I see them as too complex and unreliable to be of any practical use on the battlefield (as a main battle unit).
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Flipside on September 14, 2009, 10:13:21 am
It's not the copter body that is the problem, it's the fact that its lift relies entirely on a few, extremely flimsy blades that cannot be protected and use extremely delicate technology to supply lift/banking etc. You cannot armour up a helicopter too well because of that, the heavier you make it, the more upward thrust required, the larger target the rotors become.

That's why copters tend to focus on anti-infantry, long range 'pop-up' attacks and stealth, because they really are not front-line weapons unless you have massive air superiority.

If you look at a helicopter at rest, the blades droop under their own weight, that flexibility is vital to how lift is achieved, add armour to those and the helicopter loses any pretence at manoeuvrability.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: General Battuta on September 14, 2009, 10:45:32 am
Yeah, BattleTech got that right - you can't really armor up a helicopter when it relies on rotors.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 14, 2009, 11:13:21 am
Quote from: TrashMan on September 14, 2009, 10:02:41 am
Then give them some armor. It's not like they can't carry it.

While the Hind does exist, it's still got rotors, and it's also still got a rather vunerable transmission for them. You can't really armor those things, or the engine intakes, very well.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Thaeris on September 14, 2009, 11:26:16 am
The Hind...  :nod:

The only helo I know of that carries conventional bombs... and then goes on dive-bombing missions with them...
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Flipside on September 14, 2009, 11:35:55 am
I seem to recall the Hind also had a problem that, whilst it was extremely difficult to penetrate the armour at the front, the tail end was decidedly vulnerable?
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Thaeris on September 14, 2009, 11:39:05 am
Ever look at the tail rotor? You can see the transmission fairing on top of the tail boom. I believe most of the actual rotor structure is exposed as well.

Despite that fact, keep in mind most helicopters are like that anyway. The Hind is one tough cookie.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: General Battuta on September 14, 2009, 11:41:03 am
It was so tough, in fact, that it couldn't turn properly without overstressing, and Hind flights rehearsed joint maneuvers so one helicopter would be forced to do anything too dramatic.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 14, 2009, 01:50:11 pm
Just make something like the Valkyrie (GROPOS episode, Babylon 5)


As for mecha. I still go with the Heavy Gear/VOTOMs philosophy that mecha will be a bridge between MBTs and infantry. They'll never replace MBTs but they'll serve as armoured troopers, or power armour troopers.

But big AT-ATs and Mechs? Probably not.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: bizzybody on September 14, 2009, 09:55:24 pm
How about a mecha replacement for the SHEVA tanks in the Posleen book series? They're the size of a small hill and pack a 16" gun derived from the ones used in the Iowa class battleships. Instead of separate shells and powder bags the gun design is modified to use really large cartridges. Think of a .50 Barret sniper rifle* scaled up to 16 caliber. ;)

Their purpose is to take out Posleen landers (which are the size and shape of a middling sized skyscraper) before they land.

Would have to be big mech to stand up under the recoil from such a gun.

*I want one of the 1" versions of the Barret. Why? Just because, and it fires a bigger projectile than a Solothurn.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: General Battuta on September 14, 2009, 10:03:35 pm
Quote from: bizzybody on September 14, 2009, 09:55:24 pm
How about a mecha replacement for the SHEVA tanks in the Posleen book series? They're the size of a small hill and pack a 16" gun derived from the ones used in the Iowa class battleships. Instead of separate shells and powder bags the gun design is modified to use really large cartridges. Think of a .50 Barret sniper rifle* scaled up to 16 caliber. ;)

Their purpose is to take out Posleen landers (which are the size and shape of a middling sized skyscraper) before they land.

Would have to be big mech to stand up under the recoil from such a gun.

*I want one of the 1" versions of the Barret. Why? Just because, and it fires a bigger projectile than a Solothurn.

Those only work if, like Ringo did, you go way out of your way to remove airpower from the equation. But they were pretty cool.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Stormkeeper on September 14, 2009, 11:43:46 pm
I might be a Gundam fanboy, but for now, I don't think mechs are feasable. That double barreled tank from 08th MS team, however, is a different story.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: TrashMan on September 15, 2009, 03:47:25 pm
(http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/7/11/633513896350726109-tank-catapult.jpg)

http://media.photobucket.com/image/tank%20motivational/Teh_MCP/Motivational/CrusaderTank.jpg

http://jaysolomon.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/flying-tank1.jpg

Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: MR_T3D on September 15, 2009, 04:09:39 pm
i think if they eve make mechs, it will be like AT-AT or ST's
imagine one of them with some marines painted on sides.
and 1/2 leg lenght.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Mongoose on September 15, 2009, 05:17:21 pm
The same AT-STs that managed to get tripped up by a few rolling logs? :p
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Stormkeeper on September 16, 2009, 01:16:45 am
Doesn't matter how short their leg is. The knees of any walker will always be its weak point.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Flaser on September 16, 2009, 12:37:55 pm
Quote from: Stormkeeper on September 14, 2009, 11:43:46 pm
I might be a Gundam fanboy, but for now, I don't think mechs are feasable. That double barreled tank from 08th MS team, however, is a different story.

That's another thing that really-really annoys me. Double barrels are stupid. Damn stupid.

You only use multiple barrels on repeating weapons when that's the only way to achieve a hit, like old Anti-Air Guns. You simply spit more lead (or airburst shells) into the air in hope of achieving a kill since back then they didn't have radar to match and lead targets.

If I could put two guns on a tank, then I would instead go for a bigger gun or a faster (and therefore bigger or heavier) autoloader. There nothing that two guns can do that a single gun can't do just as well.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomeButImpractical

"Double Barrel Tanks are the mecha of Tanks, seen as cool but yet as impractical.

Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Thaeris on September 16, 2009, 12:53:10 pm
<Thaeris cites the M3 Lee, which had a limited traverse 75mm, a turreted 37mm, and a turret on top of that with a .50cal>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M3_Lee

The T-35 was doomed to fail regardless. The tank, according to my sources, had a maximum armor thickness of 30mm. For a tank of WWII, that's basically saying, "if 'ya shoot (with your average tank-based artillery), I'm gonna die!"

Multi-turreted tanks were actually very common in the early days. Most WWI tanks had multiple turrets, actually. And you're right again with the AA vehicles being the only vehicles which actually might need multiple guns. That concept, however, is not obsolete. The Germans currently field an AA tank with two barrels. The vehicle is mounted on the Leopard I MBT chassis, and is known as the Gepard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugabwehrkanonenpanzer_Gepard

...Thing's pretty cool looking, actually...
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 16, 2009, 01:03:07 pm
Quote from: Flaser on September 16, 2009, 12:37:55 pm
*snip*

T-35 never actually saw combat in WW2 according to fairly reliable accountings, only the Winter War with Finland.

It also had multiple turrets, which makes the conception of having multiple guns not crazy.

A successful multiturreted tank would be the LVT-A1 and LVT-A2. The M3 with its hull-mounted 75mm and turreted 37mm was also fairly successful in action.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Thaeris on September 16, 2009, 01:13:22 pm
Of course... it had an ungodly shilouhette...

My resources indicate that the T-35 saw some service during the winter of '41 outside of Moscow, thus augmenting the myth the Germans held that suggested the Russians were miserably backward.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 16, 2009, 01:21:40 pm
Quote from: NGTM-1R on September 16, 2009, 01:03:07 pm
Quote from: Flaser on September 16, 2009, 12:37:55 pm
*snip*

T-35 never actually saw combat in WW2 according to fairly reliable accountings, only the Winter War with Finland.

It also had multiple turrets, which makes the conception of having multiple guns not crazy.

Yeah but the thing is the original concept for tanks was a land battleship. British WW2 tanks were even called "Cruisers", the WW1 tanks were manned by navy personnel not army personnel.

But both of these concepts pretty much didn't go anywhere. They were abandoned.

Besides, while multiple-turreted tanks have existed. Or tanks with both turrets and sponsons, there has never to my knowledge been a tank with multiple guns in the same turret. Maybe that crazy German thing with the battleship turret on it but that wasn't built anyway and the turret was so massive in the first place.

Multiple guns is certainly impractical for most turrets. Most WW2 tanks had 3 man turrets. Commander, Gunner and Loader. Nowadays you can throw an autoloader in there and move the commander and gunner to the hull and use optics instead (like some new Russian tanks are doing) but anyway. But without that automation you'll have one very cramped turret.

I mean why have two guns in one turret when you can have one gun with a bigger calibre?

Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Thaeris on September 16, 2009, 01:33:57 pm
Cruiser tanks were designed to be fast, mobile vehicles. The description has nothing to do with ships. The British also employed infantry tanks like the Churchill, which were designed to be slow, tough-to-put-down vehicles that could cross difficult terrain. Those vehicles were designed to keep up with troops in a charge.

...As you can see, without practical, up-to-date tactics, British tanks were quite outplaced by the Germans in terms of armor design.

Multiple guns is an old idea/concept, but is not neccessarily dead. More guns means you need more space to house them. WWII tanks had different guns for different purposes... if they had multiple turrets. At one point, it made sense to have a big gun shooting a low-velocity round to hit an installation while a smaller gun shooting a high-velocity projectile could take on vehicles. Later on, technology outplaced this concept.

Today, cannons are powerful enough and have enough round types that this is mostly unnecessary. But you never know... perhaps there will someday be a need for a tank with a 150mm field gun for use as fire support... but that 30mm Bushmaster is needed for self-defense.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 16, 2009, 01:57:28 pm
The French Leclerc, IIRC, has a coaxial 20mm cannon to go with its main gun...
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Flaser on September 16, 2009, 03:44:32 pm
Actually the Russian once again made history IMHO:

(http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/503/bmpt.jpg)

This is the BMPT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMPT) a dedicated urban fighter to support infantry. It's not meant to engage tanks, so it has a really unique set of weapons. It's built on the T-72 chassis just like the T-90 series and has the following mounted by default:

   

Just as with AA this makes sense as this 'vehicle' (it's not an IFV or MBT) is meant to engage a wide variety of threats (which it's bound to find in an urban environment).
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on September 16, 2009, 03:52:03 pm
Quote from: Thaeris on September 16, 2009, 01:33:57 pm
Cruiser tanks were designed to be fast, mobile vehicles. The description has nothing to do with ships. The British also employed infantry tanks like the Churchill, which were designed to be slow, tough-to-put-down vehicles that could cross difficult terrain. Those vehicles were designed to keep up with troops in a charge.

The initial british ideas of tank combat involved close quarters swirling gun battles, the "Cruiser" designation is based upon more than speed. I believe they also have more even armour coverage than most tanks. That and some of the Cruisers weren't fast at all. One of the early model tanks, the A13 maybe was very underpowered.

And yes they did also have the slow I-Tanks like the Valentine, Matilda and Churchill.



The only two-gun tank I'm aware of to say any significant combat in ww2 was the M3 Grant (or Lee with the US-preferred sponson). But it had a hull mounted 75mm and a turret mounted 32mm and was more of a stopgap tank to fill the role until the M4 Sherman came out. It was also a pretty lousy tank in some respects since the hull mounted main gun made it impossible to go hull down with it (that combined with a high profile compared to many tanks).
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Stormkeeper on September 16, 2009, 10:12:24 pm
Quote from: Flaser on September 16, 2009, 03:44:32 pm
*snip*
My sargeant saw the BMPT was amused, then realised it was Russian and went, "Oh it's Russian. Of course."
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: BengalTiger on September 20, 2009, 10:23:45 am
Quote from: Flaser on September 16, 2009, 03:44:32 pm
Actually the Russian once again made history...
...

Actually the Ontos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M50_Ontos) was earlier, with 6 recoilless rifles and an MG on the turret:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/Ontos.jpg)
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: General Battuta on September 20, 2009, 11:34:29 am
It was an anti-tank vehicle, not an urban warfare platform.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: BengalTiger on September 21, 2009, 04:25:04 am
It was used as a direct fire support vehicle mostly, so in practice it was an urban warfare platform:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0t-0l0Zv0I&feature=related
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 21, 2009, 02:49:42 pm
Direct Fire Support isn't exclusivley urban :wtf:

Your definitiion confuses itself.

Anyway, thats not mecha.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Stormkeeper on September 21, 2009, 05:39:23 pm
Indeed.

Mecha = Generally humaniod form + Abnormal Weaponry + Angsty Teenage Pilot + V-Fin on its head(optional).
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: TrashMan on September 21, 2009, 05:48:45 pm
Are angsty teenage pilots a requirement?  :eek2:

If so, I'm afraid our armies are doomed.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: The E on September 21, 2009, 05:51:57 pm
Well, it seems teenage pilots are very, very common in Mecha cockpits....Angstiness, while not required, does tend to creep in.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Mongoose on September 21, 2009, 05:55:07 pm
Giant Robot Piloting 101 is part of the standard curriculum in Japanese middle schools, or so I've been told.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Stormkeeper on September 21, 2009, 05:55:37 pm
Quote from: TrashMan on September 21, 2009, 05:48:45 pm
Are angsty teenage pilots a requirement?  :eek2:
Well, if you're in Japan, and you want your Mecha to survive the whole war, yes.

Otherwise, British Mecha (http://media.photobucket.com/image/Warlord%20Titan/Nyrath/kev_walker_imperius_dictatio.jpg) work well too.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 21, 2009, 06:05:12 pm
Lol I didn't know we had any. . . Apart from Noblesse-oblige.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: StarSlayer on September 21, 2009, 06:07:56 pm
Thats no mecha it's a Battle Titan :P

Anyway I find Gundam is better the farther away from adolescence the protagonist is.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Stormkeeper on September 21, 2009, 06:10:37 pm
Well, Games Workshop is a British company, responsible for 40K ...

And technically, yes its a mecha. Recognized by the internet as such.

Quote
Anyway I find Gundam is better the farther away from adolescence the protagonist is.
Well, of course. The character is, or rather, should be, more mature by then.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: SpardaSon21 on September 21, 2009, 06:34:21 pm
StarSlayer, you'll never convince Stormkeeper that a Titan isn't a mecha.  He's somewhat a fanboy of 40K judging my his user-made title of "Iron within, iron without".
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Stormkeeper on September 21, 2009, 06:37:40 pm
Well, technically, it is. And I'm not really a fanboy. I put that after I read the Iron Warriors novel and felt it was a nice change in pace for the bad guys to win.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: Thaeris on September 21, 2009, 06:48:33 pm
Dreadnought w/autocannons for the win...
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: SpardaSon21 on September 21, 2009, 06:55:45 pm
You mean the Mortis-pattern Dreadnought?  I've always preferred the Hellfire-pattern Dread with a TL Lascannon and a Missile Launcher.
Title: Re: Mecha Plausibility Thread
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 21, 2009, 07:30:07 pm
Quote from: SpardaSon21 on September 21, 2009, 06:34:21 pm
StarSlayer, you'll never convince Stormkeeper that a Titan isn't a mecha.

"And who exactly is going to do that, you little fool? I'm Invictes Anatognistes." It's mecha, kids. :P