Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Unknown Target on April 04, 2002, 10:09:41 am
-
Ok, I have a theory that uses some available technology in order to create a better long-range communicae device than the radio.
My theory is that if you get two machines, M-1 and M-2, with M-1 being the sender and M-2 being the reciever, and you use light....well, let me explain that first.
Ok, so, you're probably thinking, "Light? WTF? A giant flashlight?," and you're both right and wrong. M-1 would send a light beam to M-2, but have make it a concentrated beam, almost like a laser pointer. The "laser," will send a beam of light, precisely charged with seperate particals (Such as red, blue, purple,etc.) to M-2, which would then recieve this light as raw data. Through a program, the light would be translated into letters, which, in turn, form letters and words. So (purely as an example), if you sent a blue beam, flashed it to red, and then to orangish-purple, you might get the word "the,". The software takes the data, let's say 1=Blue, 01=Red, and 11101=Orange. The program's own code would dictate that 1=T, 01=H, and 11101 would equal E. So, the program would compile this data, which would create the code: 10111101, which would be translated as "the,".
Now, you're probably asking two things. One, how are we going to send messages to people on the other side of the Earth. Well, that's simple, we would simply bounce the light off of a reflector, such as a satalite or the atmosphere itself.
Your second question probably is, "Why is this better than radio communication?".
Well, that's also quite simple to answer; radio waves travel relatively slowly. For instance, a radio wave takes an hour's delay in reaching from here to Mars. With light, it only takes about 1/5 of a second. This means that we might finally be able to construct interstellar ships and begin our real, human, explorations of the stars.
-
Uh, no. Radio travels at light speed. The colour diferentiation ability of the receiver would limit the colours that could be used.
The only advantage that this would have would be that it'd be extremely hard to intercept.
-
thats jsut a laser comincation system and yes they have those already the military uses them for secure comincations so two ships can senda message without it being intercepted
and for normal purposes you can send them down fibre optic cables adn tahts what all super high bandwitch cables are these days
-
oh and the man is right radio does travel at the speed of light and the delay to mars is about 4 mins or something i cant remember but from teh sun to earth its 8 mins
through certain things some frequncies of the electromagnictic spectrum do travel faster than others but in a vacum its all teh same and even in air and even water the speed difference itsn't that much
the electromagnic spectrum compreises everything from longwave radio, vhf, infrared,light, ultraviolet, x-ray, and gamma radiation and everything inbetween that i have forgotten
-
Radio, like all radiant energy, travels at c. Light, being radiant energy, travels at c. X-rays travel at c. Infrared beams from your wireless remote control travel at c.
Radio is better because it doesn't require line of sight. Radio frequency radiation can curve over the horizon by bouncing it off the upper atmosphere. Light punches straight through.
-
I think mikhael already summed up my thoughts. ;)
-
ah but anyoy can listen in to radio so it need heavy encyption if you dont want people listening in and i dont there there is any code yet that cant be broken except those weird neral net dupilcate things where only poeple the the correction computer can decode them but even taht could probally be broken in time
-
You could just put in an insanely complex math formula that takes years to encode/decode stuff before sending or recieving the signals; it would be very hard to crack something like that. :D
-
but if it takes that long to encode and decode then its useless lol for line of sight coms lasers are the best if you dont want people listening in
-
Originally posted by KillMeNow
ah but anyoy can listen in to radio so it need heavy encyption if you dont want people listening in and i dont there there is any code yet that cant be broken except those weird neral net dupilcate things where only poeple the the correction computer can decode them but even taht could probally be broken in time
Anyone can listen to radio yes. That does mean it needs to be encrypted. You are, however, wrong about all codes being breakable. It is provably impossible to break a one-time-pad. Sure, you might get today's data, but what you learn today will be useless for decrypting tomorrow's data.
On the subject of symmetric neural net encryption: its no better than any other cipher. Face it: a neural net is just a state machine wired in a particular way that processes data in a particular way based on the original input stream. Basically, its a two key system (wiring is one key, original stream is the second key). Since both of these pieces of data are demonstrably unique to the cryptosystem in question, you have a two key shared-secret system. Its not even as secure/useful/flexible as a good public key system. It will take no longer to break symmetric-nueral-net systems than it will to break any other shared-secret cipher.
-
Originally posted by KillMeNow
but if it takes that long to encode and decode then its useless lol for line of sight coms lasers are the best if you dont want people listening in
Um. No. Time to encode/decode is not a factor, generally, when using digital cryptosystems. That's what dedicated crypto hardware is for.
LOS-laser comms are the best if you want to talk with someone who is within LOS. Put your target over the horizon, and all bets are off. As soon as you start going over the horizon, you introduce complexity, and thus increase the possibility of compromise.
-
the delay to mars is about 4 mins or something i cant remember but from teh sun to earth its 8 mins
I thought it was 45 mins. Thus why they couldn't do the rover by remote.
-
The lightlag from earth to mars is variable. Anywhere from 10min to 70min, I believe.
-
Well, it's time for me to defend the beast I have created :D
If radio travels at light speed, then how come it takes about 45 minutes (at about the fastest speed) to get to Mars, to command the old rover they (being NASA) sent up there in the early 90s.
Radio waves also weaken as it gets farther away from it's source. Light doesn't. Also, light is impossible to intercept, becuase to simply look at it means that it's been wiped clean, since you can only recieve light, you cannot stop it (however, there was one experiment that I know of that managed to stop light for about 1/100th of a second).
Oh, BTW, you can look most of this up in one of the more recent Popular Science magazines, because I got my basic idea (I'm not copy-catting, though!) from one of it's articles.
EDIT: I just read the last post again (I thought it said radio lag) and I would like to say that there is no light lag from the sun to mars, because light travels about the entire distance in about 1/100th of a second. Light is very, very fast.
EDIT AGAIN: Also, the combinations of light are nearly infinite, because, along with our visible spectrum, there is also UV rays, Gamma rays, X-Rays, etc. which the machine can be made to pick up.
-
Originally posted by mikhael
The lightlag from earth to mars is variable. Anywhere from 10min to 70min, I believe.
AH, of course. Orbital differential :nod:.
If radio travels at light speed, then how come it takes about 45 minutes (at about the fastest speed) to get to Mars
Coz it's 45 friggin light minutes away. 45*60*300,000=810,000,000km away. 0.8 Billion kilometers or 0.5 Billion miles.
there is no light lag from the sun to mars, because light travels about the entire distance in about 1/100th of a second
AAAAARRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!(http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/armed/2gunsfiring.gif)
-
Laser comm systems are not used solely by the military. I was considering, a couple of years ago, getting a laser transceiver to connect my company to the net and to clients, they're fairly common and reasonably reliable - the limitation is line of sight, and if a bird flies through the beam, it's disrupted and you have to restart the protocol. We ended up getting a dedicated physical line.
And the only thing that protect current day cryptography systems is the fact that, for now, we have no way to prove that NP problems are, or are not, "reduceable" (word in english for that?) to simple P problems, what implies that they have a complexity that rises exponentially to the size of the input value. The larger the cypher, the longer it will take to decode - but theoretically, you can decode anything (but it can take truckloads of time). You might even get lucky and get it on your first tries. There's some discussion going on right now among the cryptography community about an algorithm discovered by some guy (can't remember his name) that allows for enormous decreases on processing time for factoring algorythms (used in many current day cryptography systems) by exploiting some advantages provided by parallel processing. This might lead to further developments on the P = NP problem (not right now, though) and, if it's proved that P is in fact equal to NP, then all crypto systems will fall. And then you'll need tight beams, or secure physical lines.
-
Originally posted by Unkown Target
EDIT: I just read the last post again (I thought it said radio lag) and I would like to say that there is no light lag from the sun to mars, because light travels about the entire distance in about 1/100th of a second. Light is very, very fast.
There is approximately 8min of light lag from the sun to the earth. Light is fast, but the universe is big.
EDIT AGAIN: Also, the combinations of light are nearly infinite, because, along with our visible spectrum, there is also UV rays, Gamma rays, X-Rays, etc. which the machine can be made to pick up.
No. Not infinite. First of all, you're limited to planck-length waves, and plank-time bursts. Then there's the whole subject of encoding data on the carrier in a useful manner.
-
ahh....good old Max planck. :D
-
They are working on such a thing. Its called quantum Cryptography (I think) What it does is it sends one photon at a time and spins the particle in a certain direction (Vertical could mean 1 and horizontial means 0) Diagonals are impossible at the quantum level. The code is pracitally unbreakable and hard to intercept without anyone knowing because of the difficulty of determining spin without special equippment.
I read this in Discover Magazine and I probably got a lot of the facts wrong. :)
-
the term "spin" is a little more ambiguous
a particle with spin 0 looks the same from all directions
a particle with spin 1 looks the same every half-turn
a particle with spin 2 looks the same only once every revolution
a particle with spin 3 only looks the same every two revolutions
or something like that...i cant remember how many spin-states there are. Either way...its about as meaningful as quark "colours" and i can't get my head around either of them because its all so weird. I dont understand the maths behind it.
-
Originally posted by wEvil
the term "spin" is a little more ambiguous
a particle with spin 0 looks the same from all directions
a particle with spin 1 looks the same every half-turn
a particle with spin 2 looks the same only once every revolution
a particle with spin 3 only looks the same every two revolutions
or something like that...i cant remember how many spin-states there are. Either way...its about as meaningful as quark "colours" and i can't get my head around either of them because its all so weird. I dont understand the maths behind it.
:lol: You got it mostly right, but its spin 1, 1/2, 2 and 0. Spin can be up or down. 'spin' is as you said 'as meaningful as quark colors'. Its what's called a 'quantum number', an assignment of a value to an otherwise unmeasurable constant. Color, flavor and spin are all such ephemeral designations.
The important thing about quantum cryptography using photon spin is that it provides for a safe, simple way to distribute the secret keys. The basis of the system is that when you send a photon out with a particular set of values, it will lose some of those values if you RECIEVE it in the wrong way.
Let's designate the states (combinations of quantum values) as left slant (\), right slant (/), flat (-) and tall (|). I decide to send my stream of photons to you:
/ / \ / / \ \ \ / \ \ \ \ / \ / \ /
The first thing you will notice is that I've sent them all as left or right slant. This is important because of one simple thing: incorrect observation of the photon causes it to devolve into an 'error state'. Passing a 'right' photon through a left reciever leaves the photon in a tall state (/ + \ = |). Sending a left photon through a right reciever leaves it in a flat state (\ + / = -). If anyone who does not know what order of filters to recieve photons in tries to intercept the stream and pass it on (called a man-in-the-middle attack), they will cause some of the photons to devolve into the two error states: - and |. You will know that someone has tampered with the stream. This reveals a problem.
The system is better than that though. The eavesdropper, though he listens in, cannot get the key, because he will devolve, on average, half the photons he intercepts. Meanwhile, I call you on the phone and tell you, or arrange ahead of time, a pattern that tells you which of the photons will be 'meaningful'. You tell me which ones were tampered with and after a certain length of time, we have an untampered key of reasonable length that the attacker never got to see. This key would then be used to generate a short periodicity one-time-pad. That's about as strong as you can get without keeping the whole thing in your own skull and jumping off a cliff head first onto rocks, having never shared anything with anyone.
It would not be unstoppable, but it is certainly very difficult for an attacker to have an idea of what the keyspace he needs to attack is. Further, it limits the physical location of an attacker to a line directly between transmitter and reciever
-
Originally posted by Unkown Target
Well, it's time for me to defend the beast I have created :D
If radio travels at light speed, then how come it takes about 45 minutes (at about the fastest speed) to get to Mars, to command the old rover they (being NASA) sent up there in the early 90s.
Radio waves also weaken as it gets farther away from it's source. Light doesn't. Also, light is impossible to intercept, becuase to simply look at it means that it's been wiped clean, since you can only recieve light, you cannot stop it (however, there was one experiment that I know of that managed to stop light for about 1/100th of a second).
Oh, BTW, you can look most of this up in one of the more recent Popular Science magazines, because I got my basic idea (I'm not copy-catting, though!) from one of it's articles.
EDIT: I just read the last post again (I thought it said radio lag) and I would like to say that there is no light lag from the sun to mars, because light travels about the entire distance in about 1/100th of a second. Light is very, very fast.
EDIT AGAIN: Also, the combinations of light are nearly infinite, because, along with our visible spectrum, there is also UV rays, Gamma rays, X-Rays, etc. which the machine can be made to pick up.
I Suggest reading up a bit on astronomy and physics.
Radio, visible light, X-Rays, those are all Electomagnetic Energy, and as such travel at roughly 300,000 km/s in a vaccum. The Earth has an average distance of roughly 499 light seconds from the Sun, or about 150,000,000 kilometers. Mars is about twice as far from the Sun as the Earth is (give or take) so the time lag from Earth to Mars would be anywhere from about 8 minutes to 25.
Additionally, all forms of EM energy dissipate over distance. I offer up the inverse-square rule for energy flux in a given area. If it's a 3-dimensional emitter such as a sphere like the sun, it's an inverse-cubed reduction in flux. Look it up.
-
You're forgetting something mikhael, if the program was made to recognize certain light patters, such as red-red-reddish organge, and read that as, I don't know, Z.
Also, if you think about it, imagine 8 Min. You could almost carry a conversation with that (notice I said almost) with that speed, compared to the hours it takes for radio waves to reach the sun. And by then, you would need complex machines to decipher an already weak signal.
Also, my original designs called for an acceleration of the light particles! I think this is very possible, if it already hasn't been done.
I have my original theory here with me, so I'll be able to write it down, or at least try to translate it from a diagram to words anyways;
Let's say that s is the velocity of light. If M-1 (sender) accelerates the speed of that light to m. If the message was traveling in a straight line to M-2 (reciever) and d (distance) equaled forty-thousand kilometers, then t (time delay) would equal a mere 15 seconds. Now, my operations are probably wrong in this calculation, I admit that, but my (possiblly incorrect) observations also state that, if a radio wave travels the same distance (probably more, in order for the following idea to work), it's strength decereases, thereby lowering message quality and spreads it's waves, making them longer and wider, which, in turn, slows down the transmission, causing it to take a longer period of time to reach it's destination (M-2).
INSERT: Think about it: there are a total of 26 letters in the alphabet, and, adding to that their lowercase counterparts, plus punctuation and numbers, I would say that there are about as many total symbols, letters and numbers in the world as about the amount of keys on your keyboard, plus about 40 (taking into account all the keys that you have to use "shift," to use).
Now, I'm not saying that mikhael and an0n's (I'm picking them to talk directly about because they have been better at giving specific info for the theory in question) points of views are completely without merit. If I did, I would not be the scientist I want to be, and would miss valuable information. In fact, some of his views are more sensible than mine, and, as such, I will try to sum up his opposition to my plan (I'm not going to interject in here, I don't want to be seen as hostile and accusing, because I'm not);
My (MY) view of mikhael's points are that his main argument is that this new way of communicating isn't quite fast enough for the proposed type of communication. That's because light travels at c, and yet, so do radio waves. Also, it would only provide a simple, limited form of communication, because of the apparent lack of colors, spectrums, etc.
My view (again, MINE) of an0n's argument is that the new system is without much of a chance, because it's useless (I CAN'T HELP IT! I'm going to interject here!Gah, here it is: he is totally, unfalteringly right, in every way, except one. And that is that I did not design this system for widespread use on our own planet, I designed it for use aboard the futures starships and expeditions that will, no, must happen in the near future. OK, I'm done) becuase of the fact that radio waves are already traveling that fast.
EDIT:Oh, since this was written before the last post, I must say to Shrike that he is right. I can't argue with it, as I don't have much real experience in the energy field, what I mostly have concerning that stuff is largely theories and conjecture.
DOUBLE EDIT: However, light dissapates very little from what I can tell. It's common sense that all E-energy dissapates after awhile, however, if light is accelerated to a sufficient amount, then it can still be decipherable when it is received, plus, if you set up stations along the way, then you will be able to re-accelerate the beam all the way to it's final destination is reached.
Man, I'm tired so some of the above two paragraphs are probably wrong, but I can't think of how to fix them.
See what you think........
Unknown Target
-
Originally posted by Shrike
Radio, visible light, X-Rays, those are all Electomagnetic Energy, and as such travel at roughly 300,000 km/s in a vaccum.
Right, hopefully you read it the second time through. ;)
I'll be blunt. Please go read up on physics, you seem to have a shaky grasp on the physics of EM radiation.
-
the number of people who no understanding of physics is alarming in here
light is exactly the same as any other form of electromagnitic radiation is simplly has a different wavelength
and yes the inverse square law does mean that all forms f=of radtion get weaker from there source think of shining a tourch is there was no fall off that tiny hand tourch would shine and light up a wall a mile away it doesn't cause the phons are spreading out not acaully getting weaker - thats why lasers are useful there waveform is completely in phase so the light is all parallel and doesn't spread to it remains instense
someone said that mars is some number of billions of miesl away its not the distance to the sun is only 90 million miles or so mars isn'r further than that at its closest orbital aproach however if tis at its furthers its the distance from teh earth to the sun plus the distance from teh sun to mars hang on i'll see if i can find an old astrophysic text book and see if i can find the acaul distances
distances
(astronomical unit - the distance from the sun to the earth aprox 90 million miles)
mercuary 0.39 AU
venus 0.72 AU
earth 1.0 AU
mars 1.52 AU
jupiter 5.2 AU
saturn 9.45 AU
uranus 19.19 AU
neptune 30.06 AU
pluto 39.53 AU
-
just a note lag time between earth and mars is between 4mins and 20 mins aprox based on lag time of 1 AU being 8 mins
-
Whoops, was a bit off on Mars' orbital distance. My bad.
-
:eek:
thats heavy going stuff. Ill have to read it tomorrow when my eyes work.
:eek:
As for Supra-light communications, which seems to be the whole point of this topic..
A)wormholes
B)some weird macroscopic quantum tunelling effect
C)exotic space-warping weirdness
D)wormholes
thats all i can think of off the top of my head. Im sure theres much more.
-
Gaaaaaaaaaaaah! :mad:
Another topic full of super long posts full of technobabble. I can't understand any of it. Just one question. It would be easy to disrupt, since you have to point the [dr. evil]"laser"[/dr. evil] directly at the place ur sending it to, right? Doesn't this make it a little hard to use, say in combat? It's only good when you're not maneuvering, right?
Heh, how much more simple language can you get? :D
-
not really even in bad weather a gyrostabliser laser would be able to track and acuratly aim in tha hurricane it might be in trouble but under most circumstances they are quite useful
espcially for clandestine transmissions since unles you standing in front of it and it hits you and you have a laser message reciver device you wont know any transmission has been sent where as radio messages even if they cant be read the radio emiisions can be detected adn the position of the sender trianglated if the equipemtn is in place
-
Originally posted by Corsair
Gaaaaaaaaaaaah! :mad:
Another topic full of super long posts full of technobabble. I can't understand any of it. Just one question. It would be easy to disrupt, since you have to point the [dr. evil]"laser"[/dr. evil] directly at the place ur sending it to, right? Doesn't this make it a little hard to use, say in combat? It's only good when you're not maneuvering, right?
Heh, how much more simple language can you get? :D
Actually a half-decent servomotor mounting and a secondary targeting/alignment laser would do the trick.
-
Originally posted by KillMeNow
just a note lag time between earth and mars is between 4mins and 20 mins aprox based on lag time of 1 AU being 8 mins
Hmmm. 45 mins musta been the round trip time on the rover.
someone said that mars is some number of billions of miesl
Working on the basis of 45 mins.
-
Originally posted by wEvil
Actually a half-decent servomotor mounting and a secondary targeting/alignment laser would do the trick.
Argggggh! That's what I mean about the technobabble!
*goes off and shoots self* :snipe:
-
A swivelly thing and a laser tracking thingy to aim it.
-
Much better! :nod::nod: I can understand now! :yes::yes:
-
An automatic swivelly thing, to be exact.
-
:lol:
-
Originally posted by Shrike
An automatic swivelly thing, to be exact.
[neo] Whoa... [/neo] :D
-
Speed of Light in vacuum == 'c' == CONSTANT. All things are calibrated against it because it is unchanging within a given medium. Light being slowed down is a media misconception. A MYTH. Stopping light is actually the storage of energy in a rubidium mist to be emitted later as a light pulse. This is not the same light that entered the mist. It is newly emitted light in the same pattern. It is not the same, not even semantically. In a vacuum, light travels at its fastest. Nothing can go faster and it cannot go slower. It may be, however, diverted, and may lose its baggage along the way. Such is the vagaries of space travel. too... much... hitchhikers' guide...
You might be able to encode letter very efficiently in a pattern of light. However, you can encode letters just as efficiently in a pattern of radio frequencies. Why? Because they are the same thing. EM radiation is EM radiation is EM radiation. You give me three colors of light in a pattern, I'll alter the wavelength of that light and show you the same exact pattern as a radio frequency narrowcast.
You're not getting a higher speed signal with patterned light (same speed). You're not getting more bandwidth from patterned light (same bandwidth). In fact, the only thing you're using a different, and less useful all around, emitter.
-
as someone stated before, the only advantage to using such a method of communication is to make the transmission harder to intercept. This would be a good thing for transfering dispatch orders, confidencial data, other stuff you dont want the enemy to know about.
This is especially true since radio waves are not so easy to direct (could be wrong about this, but im pretty sure of it) and the most practical way to keep the enemy from knowing what you're saying is to encrypt it and dial down the power on the broadcast so that it wont be recognizable after a small distance.
The problem is this: in combat, the distance measure doesnt work so well as the enemy will be within about the same range as your ships; second, encryptions can be cracked, no matter how sophistacated given enough time.
Therefore this laser communication would be good for vital information that you cant afford to let fall into enemy hands.
-
Originally posted by LtNarol
This is especially true since radio waves are not so easy to direct (could be wrong about this, but im pretty sure of it)
EM radiation of any sort can be focused, and indeed collimated.
-
because they're all made of the same thing: photons. they are just at different energy states.
-
LOL I need to try to get here earlier; everything I had in mind has already been said by others by this time. :D
not really even in bad weather a gyrostabliser laser would be able to track and acuratly aim in tha hurricane it might be in trouble but under most circumstances they are quite useful
I think the main problem with a laser-based communication system is that, in many cases, the target is being obstructed and it is simply not possible to aim it directly. The advantage with radio waves is that the wavelengths of the photons allow them to "bounce off" the upper ionosphere and travel just about anywhere on earth. ;)
You're not getting a higher speed signal with patterned light (same speed). You're not getting more bandwidth from patterned light (same bandwidth). In fact, the only thing you're using a different, and less useful all around, emitter.
That about sums it up. The visible light system would be similar to using radio, but more limited in its capabilites.
One method that might be kind of interesting is to use some of the strange properties some small particles have shown to exhibit. (especially quarks and leptons) I believe that a strange phenomenon has been observed where particles dissipate and similar particles are formed in other locations simultaneously; if this could be properly controlled, it would provide a useful, virtually unbreakable (due to the lack of a 3D medium) communications system.
I haven't studied modern physics really in-depth yet (except for some astrophysics stuff), so I only know the math portion so far. Once these AP exams are over I really need to get more into the stuff... ;)
Actually a half-decent servomotor mounting and a secondary targeting/alignment laser would do the trick.
That made sense to me, actually... :D
-
the best form of comunications evice would be be a quatum twin comincation system (i cant remember the exact name of the process) but you can get two atoms and you join them toeather other somehow and when you change the quantum state of one the other changes to no matter how far apart they are and they change at the exact same time with no and i will repeat this NO LIGHT SPEED DELAY meaning - you could use it to comunicate across teh entire universe in real time but the two machines have to obvioulsy have been built together - other advantages are there is no signal being sent so its absolutly impossible to incercpt the transmission unless way in teh future the figure how that its done through some weird super string theory doohicky that is track able but today we could hop to track it a billion years well maybe a billion lol but you know what i emans lol at the moment we dont know how to track it or even if its possible however the tech itself is only in the earliest stages so its not ready to be made into a comms device yet but in the future it might be the way epecially consider the no delay aspect
-
oh with regards to light slowing down - you can slow it down - i wasn't refering to the trapping of photons for photon gate computers i was meaning that lght travel slower through water than and air than a vaccum and that can bee seen when ever you see a rainbow thats caused by the speed differenctial beween blue and red light as they pass through water one slows down and is bent more etc
just needed to say that incase it was thought that i ment light could be stopped - i wont say it cant be done since that sort fo thign is always disporived and you loook like an ass but i doubt it will happen anytime soon lol
-
The only problem is that I think by the time they figure out how to control the process well enough to use it reliably for communications, the "path" through which the process takes place will have already been explored as well. :p:D
-
Originally posted by KillMeNow
the best form of comunications evice would be be a quatum twin comincation system (i cant remember the exact name of the process) but you can get two atoms and you join them toeather other somehow and when you change the quantum state of one the other changes to no matter how far apart they are and they change at the exact same time
Quantum-insperability communications, also known as the Ansible (I believe).
-
The limit of my understanding was passed some 10 or 15 posts ago. I gotta get to uni. ;)
-
Originally posted by CP5670
The only problem is that I think by the time they figure out how to control the process well enough to use it reliably for communications, the "path" through which the process takes place will have already been explored as well. :p:D
Quantum engtanglement, or as Shrike pointed out, the 'ansible' effect, could, theoretically be used to transmit date via Einstein's 'spooky action at a distance'. Scientists have even demonstrated large scale quantum entanglement (on the order of several thousand atoms). The systems last for fractions of a second, before losing the battle to entropy.
Whether or not quantum entanglement can be used to transmit data faster than c, I don't know. I dont' think it can be, simply because I think we end up in a situation where Heisenburg will apply.
-
I want a network card that works that way. :D
-
hmmmmmmmm....with the new evidence, I am beginning to see that my theory is starting to wear thin.
Well, if light travels at c, then that is clearly an advantage over radio, because radio travels at a true variable (let's just call it v, just for sake of shortening).
What you have to do is take in account is the v speed of radio waves, which can become slower or faster, or scrambled, due to the environment around them, but light stays constant, uless it is absolutely stopped.
So, since light waves stay at a constant speed, and radio waves disperse, slow down, and become useless over time, wouldn't light be better as a super-long range communication device? Notice, I said super long range, not just from here to, I don't know, Japan.
the best form of comunications evice would be be a quatum twin comincation system (i cant remember the exact name of the process) but you can get two atoms and you join them toeather other somehow and when you change the quantum state of one the other changes to no matter how far apart they are and they change at the exact same time with no and i will repeat this NO LIGHT SPEED DELAY meaning - you could use it to comunicate across teh entire universe in real time but the two machines have to obvioulsy have been built together - other advantages are there is no signal being sent so its absolutly impossible to incercpt the transmission unless way in teh future the figure how that its done through some weird super string theory doohicky that is track able but today we could hop to track it a billion years well maybe a billion lol but you know what i emans lol at the moment we dont know how to track it or even if its possible however the tech itself is only in the earliest stages so its not ready to be made into a comms device yet but in the future it might be the way epecially consider the no delay aspect
This is interesting. Please elaborate. If you don't I will:D:devilidea
-
nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
radio waves also travel at c
light disapates jsut as much as radiowaves only lasers dont disapate over distance and you can create microwave lasers at least (maser's) and its theortically [possbile to do the same with longwave radio too even but i not sure if its been done - but laser comms are only useful for secure line of sight communication - normal raido waves are just as fast just as reliable and you can even bounce them off the ionosphere which maes over the hoirzon commincation possible
-
AAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Radio = Invisible Light
Radio can be focused just like light.
-
you can create microwave lasers at least (maser's) and its theortically possbile
*hides Death-Ray*
I can/could get the plans for a microwave weapon.
-
as for the quatum doohicky i cant rmember the sopecifics but you change the states of one atom say its spin and the twinned atom no matter how far away will cahnge its spin too at at exactly teh same time so it could be theortically possible to comincate using the spin of the atom to repsent a 1 and no spin to repsent a 0 or somethign to that effect
its instanteous - so no delay between the reaction on mars over even the far side of the universe
no transmission of any sort that we know of at the moment anyway so cant be entercpeted unless you have the machine the other is twinned too so its entirely secure
-
Originally posted by KillMeNow
as for the quatum doohicky i cant rmember the sopecifics but you change the states of one atom say its spin and the twinned atom no matter how far away will cahnge its spin too at at exactly teh same time so it could be theortically possible to comincate using the spin of the atom to repsent a 1 and no spin to repsent a 0 or somethign to that effect
Only been done with a handful of atoms and is still highly experimental. Didn't Shrike or someone already post about quantum entanglement?
-
quantum entaglement - thank you it was bothering me to have forgotten the name =)
-
that was in responce to my bringing it up =) shrike just provided some addition data on it and that it has been done with thousand of atoms but was it then meakeil that pointed out that entropy then kills it - but someday perhaps we can work something out hisenburg uncertatinty migh cause problems but believe it or not there are ways around it now - i read an article in new scientist abouta device that allowed you to acauratly measure both quatum states speed direct and spin the whole caboodle that was with photons though and i not sure if entagelment effects them or not but sure the high iq boys will work something out someday
-
Originally posted by KillMeNow
...but someday perhaps we can work something out hisenburg uncertatinty migh cause problems but believe it or not there are ways around it now ...
Um. NO. Not just No, but Hell No. Not just Hell No, but No in as many languages as people are willing to translate it into.
You cannot subvert, get around, or otherwise dodge the Uncertainty Principle. The very act of measuring the position of a particle changes its direction. The very act of measuring the direction of the particle changes its position. Everything you do CHANGES something about the particle in relation to the universe in which it exists.
-
Originally posted by mikhael
Um. NO. Not just No, but Hell No. Not just Hell No, but No in as many languages as people are willing to translate it into.
You cannot subvert, get around, or otherwise dodge the Uncertainty Principle. The very act of measuring the position of a particle changes its direction. The very act of measuring the direction of the particle changes its position. Everything you do CHANGES something about the particle in relation to the universe in which it exists.
Unless you had a totally passive method of observation. Which is mathematically impossible too, im lead to beleive.
But look at it this way - the uncertainty principle lets you do loads of cool things like make universes and matter out of nothing!
-
look up the new scientest web site - it is in there somwhere (at least i think they put there old article there)- its not quite aplicable since it was photons - they claimed it in the title to be astar trek style transporter for photons and it could even mesure the quatum state - i was very sceptical but if they printed as fact it they must be pretty sure about it
not being a quatum physicist though i couldn't tell you how it was done though - but i understand where you are coming from my initial reaction was the same
-
Actually if the position and velocity of a particle could be mathematically theorized, actual observation would not be necessary. It would be really hard to find such a formula, but it seems like the only way to get around the uncertainty principle issue. (good for theorists like me though :D)
its instanteous - so no delay between the reaction on mars over even the far side of the universe
This is pretty interesting; I think that the particles might actually be moving through three dimensions or something instead of four, so that all states of time are one and change is all instantaneous. ;)
quantum entaglement - thank you it was bothering me to have forgotten the name =)
LOL same here; I knew I had heard it before and it was something starting with an "E" but my memory was failing me beyond that. :p
nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
add in a few more o's. :D
-
Originally posted by KillMeNow
quantum entaglement - thank you it was bothering me to have forgotten the name =)
Excuse me, this has been popping up a lot, and it's the only thing I don't understand....
If quantum refers (or means, I'm a little sketchy on it) to time, then how can you enlarge time?
I mean, I know about quantum tunneling, where you bore a hole through time, and then you can go (I think) backwards and forwards in time. So how does that relate to communication, other than in the time it takes for the message to get through.
Oh, BTW, mikhael (can I just call you McHale?:D:p), your points are well said, and you put up an interesting argument. Do you have any ideas how I could make this viable? I'm actually thinking of submitting this, and if I do I'll definately include this thread, because, since guys made me see that a lot of it was off, it's your idea, too ;)
Other than that, I still think that the idea holds some merit for intersteller communication. How about not using light, but some other medium that radio waves, because of their slow speed at long distances? (Please, this is true, it takes up to an hour for signals to get from here to mars!)
-
All energy and stuff is made of/defined in quanta. A quantum level thingy is friggin tiny. It's not enlargement, it's entanglement as in the two particles have become tangled or linked together somehow.
-
ok, thanks.
So, how far away does it need to become entangled? Literally entangled, or can it be linked by energy?
-
Originally posted by Unkown Target
Other than that, I still think that the idea holds some merit for intersteller communication. How about not using light, but some other medium that radio waves, because of their slow speed at long distances? (Please, this is true, it takes up to an hour for signals to get from here to mars!)
Planetary movement and lags on targetting would make it impossible to hit anything smaller than a few miles wide, even if it was only Mars-distance away. And when the light beam hit, the who few-mile-wide receiver would need to be capable of detecting the stream uninterupted on any 1cm square area (or however wide the beam was). Not to mention interstellar dust and gasses would **** up the stream through refraction, diffraction and deflection.
-
Originally posted by Unkown Target
ok, thanks.
So, how far away does it need to become entangled? Literally entangled, or can it be linked by energy?
The particles just become mystically twinned with each other. I don't think anyone knows the specifics of why it happens yet.
-
Because I was just thinking....if two quantum particles inside two different machines intertwined over a distance, whatever happened to the first machine (and, as such, the first particle) would invariably happen to the second machine, and then the second partical...
And then you would have a device for instant communication!
-
Originally posted by Unkown Target
Because I was just thinking....if two quantum particles inside two different machines intertwined over a distance, whatever happened to the first machine (and, as such, the first particle) would invariably happen to the second machine, and then the second partical...
Yes, except that within a fraction of a second (in larger, more complex particle....err....constructions) entropy kicks in and the various exchanges of energy between either particle and other nearby particles or energy ****s things up.
-
Got any ideas on how to stop that?
Energy suspension, inside a rubber bubble?
-
Originally posted by Unkown Target
Got any ideas on how to stop that?
Energy suspension, inside a rubber bubble?
The very process of moving the twinned particles apart would **** it up. Any kind of field used to suspend the particles would do exactly the same.
-
Originally posted by Unkown Target
How about not using light, but some other medium that radio waves, because of their slow speed at long distances? (Please, this is true, it takes up to an hour for signals to get from here to mars!)
RADIO. WAVES. DON'T. SLOW. DOWN. AT LONG. DISTANCES.
It takes an hour for signal to get from here to Mars because it takes light an hour to get from here to Mars. Radio waves or light or X-rays or microwaves, its all the same blessed thing LITERALLY.
The only medium you have to work with its not going to let you do anything any faster. You can't speed the thing up. The whole universe is designed from the beginning to disallow anything from going faster than light. Its a mathematical and physical impossibility.
If you ever discover any way to transmit data faster than a speeding radiowave, you'll win the Nobel Prize ON THE SPOT. You'll have overturned Einstein.
-
Originally posted by mikhael
RADIO. WAVES. DON'T. SLOW. DOWN. AT LONG. DISTANCES.
LOL! How many times have you repeated that in this thread alone? :D
-
Originally posted by Styxx
LOL! How many times have you repeated that in this thread alone? :D
Granted that for someone who doesn't know a fair amount about physics this is hard but the amount of times some thing have been needed to be repeated is unbeleivable. Not just the radio-light thing but loads of stuff.
-
erm, sorry McHale, there were so many posts I must have skipped over some.
Well, at least you know way more than me, do they teach this stuff where you are?(I'm only in 7th grade, so I wouldn't know;))
-
7th grade you say well if your there for the first time adn have haven't been held back for oh 10 years we all forgive you lol
i dont suppose quantum phsyics come up very offen in your classes
just as spelling puctunaction and well anythign that involved typing correctly are in mine and those classes in the apst that did involve it you guessed it i was sleeping =)
-
Heh
i used to draw spaceships at every oppertunity.
lots of starwars back then cuz i was playing too much TIE Fighter
-
7th Grade......Hmmmm. Fair enough. Not everyone can be expected to be as bright as I was. I understood the theories and reactions involved in a Fission-Fusion-Fission bomb by then. If you wann be really smart go find a book on advanced physics. Reading through it (even if you don't understand most of it) should give you a basic level of understanding of the basic principles of advanced physics. I read through one physics book and never listened for the rest of my 2 years in GCSE Physics and I'm now doing it at A-Level. But like I said, I'm bright.
-
We did single science foundation when we were in year 9(14 years old), thats where i got my C grade GSCE :D. I usually spend most of science drawing theorical ships and stuff, like ships with solar sails. You should read the book, just six numbers i think. Very interesting stuff.
-
Radio waves don't slow down over time. They just lose energy, shifted farther to the red.
-
7th grade was hmmmmm...last year. That means I was still drawing all the FS2 ships since I was still playing the game a lot. :D
Eh. Does that have anything to do with this discussion? I saw something about seventh grade and drawing space ships. ;)
-
Originally posted by Unkown Target
erm, sorry McHale, there were so many posts I must have skipped over some.
Well, at least you know way more than me, do they teach this stuff where you are?(I'm only in 7th grade, so I wouldn't know;))
Let me think. My seventh grade year... That's the year I had 'The Lord of the Rings' read to me by my english teacher. Incredible. Absolutely incredible.
More salient, however, is the fact that no, they did not teach any of this stuff at that point. Teaching basic physics requires a reasonably working knowledge of basic algebra. That was eighth grade they taught that stuff in my schools.
However, I learned the basics of physical science, EM physics, and atomic physics in the fifth grade. I really liked to read. A lot. My grandmother gave me all these turn of the century english readers and a collection of scientific almanacs starting in the late 20s going up through the early 70s. They summarised most scientific advances in all sorts of fields for the year. Articles on subjects from geology to paleontology to vulcanology to oceanography to anthropology to genetic research to particle physics to cosmology to electronic theory, and everything in between: I read them all, cover to cover. I didn't retain a lot, but I did take in enough to be able to read and understand serious books on atomic theory before we got past the whole 'gravity makes things fall' portion of my science classes.
Really, its not so much that I was bright or anything, it was more that I didn't--and still don't much--like people and found it easier and more fulfilling to hide from the world in books of all sorts.
-
I was more into math during my earlier years; lets see, I was basically working through single-variable calculus independently in seventh grade. I have been able to progress a bit in math but my physics knowledge is somewhat limited, so I hope to expand upon that in a year or so. ;)
Really, its not so much that I was bright or anything, it was more that I didn't--and still don't much--like people and found it easier and more fulfilling to hide from the world in books of all sorts.
You're exactly like me in that respect. ideas > people :yes::D
-
Originally posted by CP5670
I was more into math during my earlier years; lets see, I was basically working through single-variable calculus independently in seventh grade. I have been able to progress a bit in math but my physics knowledge is somewhat limited, so I hope to expand upon that in a year or so. ;)
Wow... :) That's a good four years ahead of me, though I'm the same age as you.... :)