Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: stuart133 on September 27, 2009, 03:59:32 pm
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I'm in the (very) early stages of converting a set of starship combat rules to fit the freespace universe. This is a labour of love for me, I would love to see this system applied to the freespace universe.
The reason for this topic is to see how many people are interested in this, perhaps providing advice, ideas and maybe some help.
Obviously the game can never be published but it could work like the Freespace card game. (Maybe??)
Anyway if no one is interested I'll just keep it too myself but otherwise it could turn out quite nicely. Also there is the possibility of something like this (http://www.sfbonline.com/index.jsp).
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What format of board game were you looking at?
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The rules i'm converting are http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2106, though if people are more interested in the tactics than overall strategy then something more like this (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/29663) or this (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3893).
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Sounds really cool. Now, if you could cast miniatures for this in a fashion similar to Battletech/BFG/Epic 40K, that would be beyond awesome. :yes:
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Sounds really cool. Now, if you could cast miniatures for this in a fashion similar to Battletech/BFG/Epic 40K, that would be beyond awesome. :yes:
Cheers.
Hmmm, I know a few people who could do some casts maybe, not sure on that one. Also which of the two formats would people like to see:
The tactical one: This will have induvidual plans for each ship, complicated damage and movement (no 3d though, at this level it hurts my brain!!)
The strategic one: Ships have generalised attack values for different weapons, simple combat, but you have to worry about economies, supply and rebuilding of ships.
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I prefer tactical. Strategy is more of something to get in the way of combat for me. :doubt:
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I... suppose you could write two different but compatible sets of rules...
(a.) Strategic would apply to capships and fighters/bombers being sent to engage capships.
(b.) Tactical would work for fighters vs. other small craft. You might have a map to the side of the main table which you'd use for squad dogfights.
I don't know if that would be feasible... can't see why it wouldn't be, though. In truth, I've never really played games like Battletech, but I've always been interested and have enjoyed reading about them.
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Freespace Risk? Freespace Stratego?
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Freespace Risk? Freespace Stratego?
Frisk?
Freetego?
:lol:
Not Risk, though. SO much more based on luck than strategy... blegh.
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Phase based. Capital movement. Deployment(fighter launch),capital attack, fighter move, fighter attack.
Repeat.
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I've mentioned this before but I have converted Freespace to a game called Babylon 5 Wars. A tactical starship combat game though it's probably an order of magnitude more complicated than what you're striving for.
Rules: http://www.richbax.com/Advent%20Of%20Galactic%20War_RevA.pdf (http://www.richbax.com/Advent%20Of%20Galactic%20War_RevA.pdf)
Conversions: http://knossos.firenebula.com/navigate.html (http://knossos.firenebula.com/navigate.html)
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Don't ruin his dream.
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Don't ruin his dream.
No reason you can't have multiple conversions for Freespace. Star Wars and Star Trek have been converted to everything under the sun, why not FS? Babylon 5 Wars is not a game that appeals to everyone that's for sure.
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Looking at the response I think that a tactical system will be best. I would like to make it fairly detailed but have it focused more on fighters than any current space game I've played.
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I would flip out at FreeSpace BattleTech. My two favorite games, finally combined.
[/drool]
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Looking at the response I think that a tactical system will be best. I would like to make it fairly detailed but have it focused more on fighters than any current space game I've played.
I'm not sure if you intend to create the game from scratch or base it upon another game system. I know the former is probably a huge undertaking. The only boardgame still in circulation that I'm aware of that concentrates on fighter combat is Silent Death. Might be something to look into: http://www.star-ranger.com/SilentDeath.htm (http://www.star-ranger.com/SilentDeath.htm)
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I'm not sure if you intend to create the game from scratch or base it upon another game system. I know the former is probably a huge undertaking. The only boardgame still in circulation that I'm aware of that concentrates on fighter combat is Silent Death. Might be something to look into: http://www.star-ranger.com/SilentDeath.htm (http://www.star-ranger.com/SilentDeath.htm)
Yeah, that looks like a good starting point, although I'm not too sure about spending $50 plus p&p on a game I probably won't end up playing that much. I do have several game systems which I am slowly going through looking for features to implement. But I do have a lot of ideas on how to build the system.
Also while I'm on the topic at some point I will probably need some help play testing the rules.
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I would flip out at FreeSpace BattleTech. My two favorite games, finally combined.
[/drool]
I vote for FSCrimson Skies
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I've mentioned this before but I have converted Freespace to a game called Babylon 5 Wars. A tactical starship combat game though it's probably an order of magnitude more complicated than what you're striving for.
Rules: http://www.richbax.com/Advent%20Of%20Galactic%20War_RevA.pdf (http://www.richbax.com/Advent%20Of%20Galactic%20War_RevA.pdf)
Conversions: http://knossos.firenebula.com/navigate.html (http://knossos.firenebula.com/navigate.html)
Right, I've had a good read through these rules, and I think that what I'm going to do is convert these with some other ideas I had. The main one of these was to try and create a proper dogfight situation in which fighters have to try and get behind their opponent and will have special manoeuvres that allow them to flip around or perform evasive manoeuvres around large ships, maybe at the cost of wing cohesion. Also I'll obviously take out the Newtonian movement system seeing as that is not at all Freespace.
On the other hand if no one here would like to see a game of this complexity then I will try to create a set of fast-play rules.
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Right, just like a bit of feedback on these ideas:
Emphasis is placed on fighter movement. Aim is to get your fighter behind the enemy. Once there dogfight missiles can be used (with no need to track as I have seen in other games). At each stage of movement the fighter has the choice to perform manoeuvres such as hard right turn or flip and reverse to throw off the chasing player. This cost squad cohesion. Once this hits zero the flight must stop and reform (a disaster in combat!!) thought some can be regained by not performing evasive manoeuvres.
Also each hex is 500 metres long (maybe less) so capships take up several hexes. This allows fighters to skin along the top of them and fly around them to try and throw off their opponent.
Oh and another thing about the Ship display cards. I was thinking of having outer systems (weapons ect.) able to be hit straight away but after that a layer of armour (the second hull hinted too in several missions) which needs to be broken through to hit the internal systems (command & control, gunnery command ect.)
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I should note that if hexes are 500 metres then it will really be more of a fleet combat game imo since fighter engagement ranges will be limited to . . . 2 hexes for pretty much all weapons? 3 hexes for the Prom-S. 3 hexes for most missiles . . . 4 or so hexes for the Maxim. Or maybe that's what you're going for . . . just with greater emphasis on the fighter craft???
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That, and only a couple of fighters would be able to make two hexes a turn, if a turn is 10 seconds (seems reasonable, no?). A majority of small craft only go about 50-65, correct?
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The way I see it: Chess or Shogi (Japanese Chess) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shogi)
I'll get back to you on the pieces
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I should note that if hexes are 500 metres then it will really be more of a fleet combat game imo since fighter engagement ranges will be limited to . . . 2 hexes for pretty much all weapons? 3 hexes for the Prom-S. 3 hexes for most missiles . . . 4 or so hexes for the Maxim. Or maybe that's what you're going for . . . just with greater emphasis on the fighter craft??
Yeah I can see where you are coming from. Um the problem is that if the hexes are sayyyy 100m a corvette will be about 7 hexes long and a few wide. I guess that would be feasible and show the size of the capships compared to the tiny fighters and bombers. The only thing is that an engagement with corvettes would be about the largest size IMO, (an Orion would be 20 hexes!) but then again I guess that would place emphasis on the fighters.
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I should note that if hexes are 500 metres then it will really be more of a fleet combat game imo since fighter engagement ranges will be limited to . . . 2 hexes for pretty much all weapons? 3 hexes for the Prom-S. 3 hexes for most missiles . . . 4 or so hexes for the Maxim. Or maybe that's what you're going for . . . just with greater emphasis on the fighter craft??
Yeah I can see where you are coming from. Um the problem is that if the hexes are sayyyy 100m a corvette will be about 7 hexes long and a few wide. I guess that would be feasible and show the size of the capships compared to the tiny fighters and bombers. The only thing is that an engagement with corvettes would be about the largest size IMO, (an Orion would be 20 hexes!) but then again I guess that would place emphasis on the fighters.
Well like I say, it depends what sort of game you intend on making. If it's made as a fleet combat game, then there'd be less emphasis on fighters. If it's meant as a fighter game, the fighters themselves should have a bit more variety and larger ships aren't going to work. Many fleet combat games only give fighters pitiful ranges like 2 hexes, but then again the emphasis is on the ships not the fighters so it works.
Another set of rules you might want to look at is: http://madcoyote.com/renleg/int/int.html (http://madcoyote.com/renleg/int/int.html) . (free to download). These are the rules for Renegade Legion Interceptor, well, re-written by the fans because they incorporate a new damage system first found in a game of the same line. But it's basically fighter only, with some "corvettes" thrown into the mix. One idea is maybe you want to create a Great War era game, and have nothing bigger than a cruiser. Or you could create a game for either era I suppose too . . . Anyway, some more rules to look at.
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Back in the day (before I lost my hosting on game-warden) I had made a FreeSpace turn-based strategy game in Java. It was computerized, and might not be too easy to make a board game out of, and the gameplay wasn't particularly FreeSpace-oriented, but it might give you some ideas, if you could find it anywhere.
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Ok, the thing is that in Freespace fighters are the main focus. The first draft of the rules is coming along well and will have the following:
Small (100m) hexes, lots of fighter wings moving fast, slow moving cruisers and corvettes taking up several hexes, Great war era weapons*, a detailed fighter manoeuvre system, and a few other little things.
*Seeing as I haven't played that much FS1 I may need some advice on weapon strengths, or a point in the right direction to a nice big table with all that on it :) :)
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You should play FSPort. ASAP.
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You should play FSPort. ASAP.
Oh I've played it, just not to the same extent that I have played FS2. I personally don't think it is as fun, but oh well. Anyway is there not a table of weapons somewhere??
Also the final edition of the game will feature FS2 stuff, but there is less FS1 stuff so that will be the first edition
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Yes, there's a .tbl file for Weapons, and there's also a lot of info on the Wiki.
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500m hexes don't sound bad to me. Though the universe is FS, the physics of the game are up to you. Only flying at 50m/s is in reality very unrealistic...
One of the things I like about the space environment is the sense of the massive... as everything within is in comparison microscopic. However, I think a good compromise would be a 250m hex.
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Yes, there's a .tbl file for Weapons, and there's also a lot of info on the Wiki.
Cheers, that's in the FS Port files right?
500m hexes don't sound bad to me. Though the universe is FS, the physics of the game are up to you. Only flying at 50m/s is in reality very unrealistic...
One of the things I like about the space environment is the sense of the massive... as everything within is in comparison microscopic. However, I think a good compromise would be a 250m hex.
Yeah I know it is unrealistic but I'm gonna try and stay true to the Freespace universe on this one. And the whole point is the fighters will feel small as the capships dwarf them, the fighters still only fit in one hex after all. But either way when the first draft is done we'll see what is best.
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500m hexes don't sound bad to me. Though the universe is FS, the physics of the game are up to you. Only flying at 50m/s is in reality very unrealistic...
One of the things I like about the space environment is the sense of the massive... as everything within is in comparison microscopic. However, I think a good compromise would be a 250m hex.
That gives very short weapon ranges, and so renders much manuvering pointless when the only way to fight is a charge.
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250 m hex allows for two hex movement for even the slowest fighters (operating on the 10 second turn assumtion), a decent range for the Subach and Menku of three hexes, maybe two for Tempests, and proportionally longer after that. Having hexes be much smaller is going to do nothing but proportionally increase the amount of hexes a weapon/ship fires/moves.
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Couldn't we just balance the game so it's fun and not worry about exact scale?
Eh? Eh?
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That would upset the bean counters out there (self included) :P. Plus, it's easier to write a game around a scale than it is relative measurement.
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250 m hex allows for two hex movement for even the slowest fighters (operating on the 10 second turn assumtion), a decent range for the Subach and Menku of three hexes, maybe two for Tempests, and proportionally longer after that. Having hexes be much smaller is going to do nothing but proportionally increase the amount of hexes a weapon/ship fires/moves.
Yeah but the whole point is that weapon ranges are quite long. Obviously firing a Subach at maximum range is going to incur some major penalties, but it helps reduce the problem that fighter combat tends to be: CHARRRRGE!! FIRE!! Pray for good dice rolls.
Couldn't we just balance the game so it's fun and not worry about exact scale?
Eh? Eh?
It is much easier to work out rough weapon ranges if it is to an exact scale. Also yeh I'm one of the bean counters :) :)
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As a general note... I'd like to say the great thing about board games is that if you don't like the rules, it's easy enough to change them. I have faith in Stuart though... I think... :D
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Right things are going well buuuuut I've run into a huge problem. :(
Testing the fighter manoeuvre system I have found this happens a lot:
1:Fighter wing one will come up behind Fighter wing 2
2:Fighter wing 2 will get initiative and therefore move second
3:Fighter wing 1 has to move, which is 4 hexes.
4:He shoots past Fighter wing 2
5:Fighter wing 2 pulls of a reverse loop and flies away from his erstwhile attacker
I'm not sure how to fix this issue: Any thoughts?
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That's the whole point of an initiative system. When one side wins, they gain a tactical advantage by being able to either escape from their attackers or see where their targets are heading and set up for that. The way to fix that is to have fighter wing one be more cautious. Another way would be to have fighter wings be broken down into individual fighters at the player's discretion. When not in combat they move as one unit and significantly reduce movement time (RL, that is), when in combat, you can roll init for all of them and have a dogfight, not just a "this wing shoots at this wing, end of story"