Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on October 13, 2009, 12:47:32 am
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according to this anyway (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=1092)
In Pensacola, Fla., retired FBI agent Ted Gunderson tells a gathering of antigovernment "Patriots" that the federal government has set up 1,000 internment camps across the country and is storing 30,000 guillotines and a half-million caskets in Atlanta. They're there for the day the government finally declares martial law and moves in to round up or kill American dissenters, he says. "They're going to keep track of all of us, folks," Gunderson warns.
Outside Atlanta, a so-called "American Grand Jury" issues an "indictment" of Barack Obama for fraud and treason because, the panel concludes, he wasn't born in the United States and is illegally occupying the office of president. Other sham "grand juries" around the country follow suit.
And on the site in Lexington, Mass., where the opening shots of the Revolutionary War were fired in 1775, members of Oath Keepers, a newly formed group of law enforcement officers, military men and veterans, "muster" on April 19 to reaffirm their pledge to defend the U.S. Constitution. "We're in perilous times … perhaps far more perilous than in 1775," says the man administering the oath. April 19 is the anniversary not only of the battle of Lexington Green, but also of the 1993 conflagration at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, and the lethal bombing two years later of the Oklahoma City federal building — seminal events in the lore of the extreme right, in particular the antigovernment Patriot movement.
So for 8 years we had a president who walked all over the constitution and did quite a few ethically questionable, yet these guys were no where to be found. Now elect a black democrat to office and boy look out.
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Damn, that is some world class crazy.
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The more I see things like this, the more I near the conclusion that Americans are addicted to fear. It just seems that people can't live without it, and will come up with anything to satisfy their addiction.
It also seems that people will come up with any excuse to justify threatening activities, which most of the time appear to have alternative political motives. America's political integrity is failing, fast.
And I'm an American saying this, mind you.
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I honestly can't see the US going on as it is for too much longer.
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Goddamn militia movements. And we thought all the terrorists are hiding in caves in Afghanistan.
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Okay, come on people. These guys are far less wacky than fringe groups that used to hold considerable power in the US.
Until you can provide proof that the level of craziness is any different than it was in the past (I want statistical proof with a t-test or something) then you just sound silly with your doomsaying. Because this is how the US has always worked. Selectively picking out the nuts and examining them will, by necessity, invoke the availability heuristic and create a biased sample.
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In fact, the linked article talks about how this stuff hasn’t yet reached the level it was at ten or twelve years ago.
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They were like this in the 90's too. Then one of the more extreme wackos blew up a federal building in Oklahoma.
Thing is, we even tried to be proactive in dealing with the threat this time. The DHS published a report indicating that these assholes would be back, but the GOP played the goddamn partisan card and said looking for disgruntled white people and angry war veterans (which is what McVeigh was) is somehow tantamount to letting the terrorists win.
So here we are, we've got these assholes assembling on our doorsteps and we can't do a thing to stop them, because they've got an entire party in Congress defending them.
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As an addendum to the earlier post (rather than a disagreement with anything following), I'd like to point out that in the post we regularly had actual revolts, violence, genuinely corrupt governments, politicians who cheated outright, and elected officials who out-and-out plotted coups, advocated monarchy, or wanted to take over the whole continent!
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Which is why we have to nip these at the bud. If we don't stop them now what's stopping them from turning into the next McVeighs? The environment is even better for these kinds of groups to flourish than ever, with paranoid extreme radio personalities fueling them. We already have a dead abortion doctor on our hands and teabaggers bringing weapons to town hall meetings. And then you've got O'Reilly and Beck and Dobbs giving these guys a somewhat mainstream or legit voice...
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As an addendum to the earlier post (rather than a disagreement with anything following), I'd like to point out that in the post we regularly had actual revolts, violence, genuinely corrupt governments, politicians who cheated outright, and elected officials who out-and-out plotted coups, advocated monarchy, or wanted to take over the whole continent!
When? I don't recall anything like that in the last 30 years.
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As an addendum to the earlier post (rather than a disagreement with anything following), I'd like to point out that in the post we regularly had actual revolts, violence, genuinely corrupt governments, politicians who cheated outright, and elected officials who out-and-out plotted coups, advocated monarchy, or wanted to take over the whole continent!
When? I don't recall anything like that in the last 30 years.
Of course we wouldn't. A lot of the things mentioned are examples of how extreme American politics have gotten in the past (the way past). Correct me if I'm off the mark, but General Battuta is giving us some context in which to consider the current extremist activities.
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Forsooth! America is in peril!
Bring forth my weeping cup!
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As an addendum to the earlier post (rather than a disagreement with anything following), I'd like to point out that in the post we regularly had actual revolts, violence, genuinely corrupt governments, politicians who cheated outright, and elected officials who out-and-out plotted coups, advocated monarchy, or wanted to take over the whole continent!
When? I don't recall anything like that in the last 30 years.
Of course we wouldn't. A lot of the things mentioned are examples of how extreme American politics have gotten in the past (the way past). Correct me if I'm off the mark, but General Battuta is giving us some context in which to consider the current extremist activities.
Either way I'm interested in hearing some specific examples.
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Okay. How about Polk telling the army to go dick around in Mexican territory until the Mexicans engaged them, so he could say, "Behold! The dirty brown peoples, they is uppity and attacking!" and then annex a whole lot of land.
Worked out pretty well, too.
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As an addendum to the earlier post (rather than a disagreement with anything following), I'd like to point out that in the post we regularly had actual revolts, violence, genuinely corrupt governments, politicians who cheated outright, and elected officials who out-and-out plotted coups, advocated monarchy, or wanted to take over the whole continent!
When? I don't recall anything like that in the last 30 years.
Because history began in 1980? :wtf:
On the political nastiness front:
Aaron Burr, potential filibuster. Politicians beating each other (right, because politics today has gotten so nasty.) Republicans buying votes in Illinois in 1880 (using bags full of two dollar bills!) Mudslinging, which used to be much more personal - usually aimed at someone's appearance (repulsive pedant” and “a hideous hermaphroditical character" were terms leveled at John Adams).
Media bias!
And lo! In meretricious dress
Forth comes a strumpet called “THE PRESS.”
Whose haggard, unrequested charms
Rush into every blaggard’s arms.
And on the out-and-out crazy side (which this thread is about): Shay's rebellion? Lynchings? Prohibition gang activity? Anti-immigration riots in the early 20th? Just about everything around the Civil War?
America has a history of crazies like this.
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Doomed.
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The General has the right of it... we've had worse. There are always crazies, of every extreme. But they were, and are, the minority. It is vitally important that everyone remembers that, and the fact that fewer do scares me more than the extremists do.
I blame a lot of our current political/cultural tension on the fact that people tend to only see the crazies on the "other side", and forget that there are normal, decent people who happen to disagree with them (but are still human beings with no taste for babies OR kittens). IMHO that myopia is much more dangerous than the existence of extremists.
Great essay by Orson Scott Card on the topic, worth a read if you haven't seen it already.
http://www.hatrack.com/osc/articles/empire_afterword.shtml
I agree with his conclusion: what we need is for people to denounce the "screamers" on all sides, not just the ones they are opposed to.
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Okay, come on people. These guys are far less wacky than fringe groups that used to hold considerable power in the US.
Until you can provide proof that the level of craziness is any different than it was in the past (I want statistical proof with a t-test or something) then you just sound silly with your doomsaying. Because this is how the US has always worked. Selectively picking out the nuts and examining them will, by necessity, invoke the availability heuristic and create a biased sample.
Id like to see a wackyness scale please? ;7
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Okay, come on people. These guys are far less wacky than fringe groups that used to hold considerable power in the US.
Until you can provide proof that the level of craziness is any different than it was in the past (I want statistical proof with a t-test or something) then you just sound silly with your doomsaying. Because this is how the US has always worked. Selectively picking out the nuts and examining them will, by necessity, invoke the availability heuristic and create a biased sample.
I'd hate to be the poor sod that has to go to "Camp White Freedom" for the federal census. Probably get tarred, feathered and shot in the ass with an AR-15.
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Heck, I agree.
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Good points, but we should also consider that those were different times. Back then the world (and our nation) was a much bigger place, we didn't have the mass communications technology we have today.
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That implies mass communication has made such things more, not less difficult...which is an interesting stance to take.
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It's a double edged sword because it also allows nuttery to spread a lot farther and faster than it would have otherwise.
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The upside is it allows anyone to spread their message faster and to more people. The downside is it allows anyone to spread their message faster and to more people.
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Well a good example of this has been the internet. You would think that our society would have become less polarized and more informed as a result of having access to a torrent of information......but that hasn't happened, instead it has become more polarized and in some cases even less informed.
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Well, I'm not sure you'd think that. I would expect an echo chamber effect anywhere like the Internet.
Are we actually more polarized, though? I'm not sure...maybe.
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I do think that modern access to information has made politicians more accountable for their behavior. The level of scrutiny public officials face means that they generally have to at least pretend to be civil, or they’ll face immediate losses in public opinion (and unflattering youtube remixes of their gaffes).
Unless, of course, their constituents are even more whacked out than they are, which I suppose is not actually that unusual.
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Killing and communication have gotten a lot easier in the last 200 years.
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Hey, this isn't news.
FYI, fairly early into Obama's term [I think], right-wing extremist groups were identified as [can't remember the term, but basically would-be terrorists] by the Homeland Security Deparment (yes, that thing Bush pulled out of his ass).
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Hey, this isn't news.
FYI, fairly early into Obama's term [I think], right-wing extremist groups were identified as [can't remember the term, but basically would-be terrorists] by the Homeland Security Deparment (yes, that thing Bush Dick Cheney pulled out of his ass).
Bush was just a moron puppet.
there was a lot of cheney working it slightly behind the scenes.
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Cheney wasn't the eminence grise everyone wants to think. Sure, maybe he wanted to be it, but he couldn't, because in trying to play power behind the throne or whatever the hell he was playing at, he cut his contact with the day-to-day staff people who actually give the President his options and thereby shape policy.
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Hey, this isn't news.
FYI, fairly early into Obama's term [I think], right-wing extremist groups were identified as [can't remember the term, but basically would-be terrorists] by the Homeland Security Deparment (yes, that thing Bush pulled out of his ass).
At the request of the Bush Administration too! (It just took them that long to compile it)