Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Abyss on November 03, 2009, 10:29:30 am
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This is my own personal theory about the Shivans.
(NOTE: This should be in no way, considered to be cannon... err... canon)
Origin of the Shivans
Part 1: How do Shivans come into existence?
Shivans do not come into existence like like other beings, they are not "born". Shivans come into existence as fragments of subspace, created when subspace itself is shattered, or to be more specific, a section of subspace.
Part 2: How does subspace get shattered?
Subspace does not naturally shatter, however if a large amount of stress is placed on it, this can happen. Normal subspace travel may cause stress, however it is negligible, however if something goes deeper and tries to force open a subspace portal then the stress is greatly increased. Basically the reason subspace was shattered and the Shivans created was because of the Knossos and the stress it placed on subspace.
Part 3: What happens when subspace is shattered?
When subspace is shattered the fragments start to emit varying frequencies of quantum pulses (which I will now refer to as QPs) and of varying intensities, as the QPs are emitted they come into contact with other fragments, if the intensity of the QP is higher then the intensity of the QP the fragment is emitting then that fragment will start to change based on the QPs frequency and the size of the fragment, the very small ones become Shivans, with anything larger becoming one of the Shivan's ships, this is why there is a large diversity in Shivan ships, however, since the QPs the fragments can travel extremely far at higher intensities, and the fact that when a fragment transforms into something it releases a QP burst, there is some constancy among ships.
The First Terrans Shivan Invasion
Part 1: How did it start?
The first Shivans were created by the Ancients when they created the Knossos, after this happened they were overpowered and destroyed, after which the Shivan's traveled the galaxy until they found the Terrans and the Vasudans. Since Shivans are hostile by nature, they attacked. Basically, when we first fought the Shivans, we were just cleaning up after the Ancients.
Part 2: Why was this fleet smaller then the second one despite the Ancients using subspace for millions of years and being unable to kill the Shivans?
Remember that normal subspace travel only causes minimum stress on subspace. The problem comes from when the Knossos tries to force open a node, so traveling through a Knossos wont cause subspace to shatter, only its activation. Still, the Ancients probably activated multiple Knossoi, however, the reason that the first wave was so small, is because, shortly before the Ancients were eradicated, they closed the Knossos, hoping to keep the Shivans from eradicating other species, but there were still some on our side of the portal, that is wave we first fought.
The Second Shivan Invasion
Part 1: How did it start?
The second war with the Shivans was caused with the NTC Trinity activated the Knossos for a second time, causing a part of subspace to again be shattered and fragments to be created, in addition to that, there were also the Shivans that were trapped behind the Knossos by the Ancients to contend with.
Part 2: What is the Sathanas?
The Sathanas is basically a massive subspace fragment. Normally a fragment of this size wont become a ship because it emits a high intensity QP that cannot usually be overpowered by another one, however, this time it was and the Sathanas came into being.
Part 3: Why did the Shivans capture Bosch?
The Shivans did this because they wanted ETAK. From what we know, ETAK modulates QPs which, according to my theory, controls what forms subspace fragments take. However it goes farther then that, by controlling QPs you can also cause subspace to break down further, causing more fragments to be released. Due to this, the Shivans captured Bosch to gain control of ETAK to expand their forces.
Part 4: What are the Shivan Comm Nodes?
I don't know how they did it, they could have stolen ETAK from the Iceni, or maybe Bosch gave it to them, either willingly or after torture, but the Shivans got control of ETAK. The Comm Nodes work like ETAK, modulating QPs and are designed to do so in a manner that will cause subspace to break down, and more Shivans to come into existence.
Part 5: How did the Shivan's create the Comm Nodes so quickly after acquiring ETAK?
The reason they were able to make Comm Nodes so easily after acquiring ETAK was because of the nature of it. First, the Shivans used the technology on the Iceni to activate the Knossos from long range , then they used ETAK to fire a long range high intensity QP blast with the frequency to create the Comm Nodes. Since the range on ETAK is unknown this could be possible, but due the the fact that it was at range, the effect deteriorated and only 3 fully functioning Comm Nodes could be made.
Part 6: How did the Shivans get so many Sathanai?
When the Shivans acquired the ETAK technology they also acquired the knowledge of how to activate the Knossos, and with a few modifications, they did it in such away that many lager fragments were created. With this technology, the Shivans opened the 3rd portal (the 2nd was opened to make the Comm Nodes) and used the Comm Nodes to create high intensity QPs to allow the larger fragments to become Sathanai.
Part 7: Why blow up Capella?
After acquiring ETAK the Shivans outfitted a variant of it on the Sathanai (doing so was as easy as a slight change in the frequency of the QPs used to create the Sathanai). Then they headed to Capella with this army and used the modified Santhanai to blow up the Capella star in such away that it caused large damage to subspace and created many more Shivans, perhaps more then we could imagine. This action was taken even with the Comm Nodes under thier control because the Comm Nodes work gradually, whereas this could created billions or more Shivan's in only 72 hours.
Part 8: Why did some of the Sathanai enter subspace after triggering the supernova?
I can think of 2 different reasons for this. Either they thought they could "dodge" the explosion by entering subspace, or they were pulled into supspace against their will by some kind of force.
Aftermath
What happens next I do not know. Maybe the Shivans use the Comm Nodes to force open a node to GTVA space. Maybe they head to a new Galaxy through the 3rd Portal and wipe out countless more species, or go around blowing up every star they can find until there are billions of Shivans. Maybe the GTVA builds a new Knossos and opens the node to Earth, only to watch as the Shivans created by this portal eradicate the GTVA from existence, or perhaps when the Lucifer exploded, it cause that part of subspace to shatter, and the Shivans brought into being from this have already brought the Earth to an end, or the battle could still be on going.
The End
I hope you like my theory, maybe it helped you come up with your own. Take what you like from this, I know I make a lot of assumptions, but this is what I have come up with. Please give your opinions on this. And if you have any questions I will do my best to answer them.
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very interesting :yes:
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A really interesting idea :)
I have a few things that I'd like to check before I'd make a major comment:
If subspace travel causes the shattering, then how come that the FS1 Shivan fleet was so small? I mean, the Ancients were travelling through subspace 8-10,000 years (I can't recall it) then it probably makes up a fleet huge as hell!
If not, how come the FS2 fleet was so big because of one Knossos? The Ancients surely had more AND note that according to the cutscenes, they were unable to kill any Shivans, thus that fleet doesn't actually a remnant as you might mean, but the total force indeed.
And how come that the Shivans were able to create the comm nodes that fast? There is only a short timespan since Bosch was abducted and what did they made id from? Do they have a way to affect what is created of the subspace shatter or what?
If ETAK was capable to create subspace shreds, then why did they blow up Capella?
Any ideas about the xenocide being of the Shivans apart 'hostile by nature'?
Apart these things I can't put my finger on yet I really like this theory :) even though I usually hate those that feature subspace-made Shivans.
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How would a natural phenomenon shattering create a technologically advanced race?
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I thought the Gamma Draconis nebula was created by a shivan incident similar to Capella...?
They would already have needed a fleet of Sathanai to create a supernova in Gamma Draconis, but according to your theory they only got the technology after the Trinity entered the nebula.
Please correct me if my statement above is wrong/not canon, right now I can't remember where I got that from.
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I thought the Gamma Draconis nebula was created by a shivan incident similar to Capella...?
Well if I remember correctly, it WAS caused by a supernova but AFAIK we can't be totally sure that it was done by the Shivans.
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Shivans seem to have normal, physical bodies...so that theory about them forming from subspace pulses is...funny.
It's like a strong EM field creating an aircraft carrier + crew.
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A really interesting idea :)
I have a few things that I'd like to check before I'd make a major comment:
If subspace travel causes the shattering, then how come that the FS1 Shivan fleet was so small? I mean, the Ancients were travelling through subspace 8-10,000 years (I can't recall it) then it probably makes up a fleet huge as hell!
If not, how come the FS2 fleet was so big because of one Knossos? The Ancients surely had more AND note that according to the cutscenes, they were unable to kill any Shivans, thus that fleet doesn't actually a remnant as you might mean, but the total force indeed.
And how come that the Shivans were able to create the comm nodes that fast? There is only a short timespan since Bosch was abducted and what did they made id from? Do they have a way to affect what is created of the subspace shatter or what?
If ETAK was capable to create subspace shreds, then why did they blow up Capella?
Any ideas about the xenocide being of the Shivans apart 'hostile by nature'?
Apart these things I can't put my finger on yet I really like this theory :) even though I usually hate those that feature subspace-made Shivans.
Hmm... good points. Hmm... umm... ah... got it.
The remember, as I said, normal subspace travel only causes minimal damage to subspace, also its not traveling through a Knossos that causes the damage its the activating of it. The reason that the first wave was so small, is because, shortly before the Ancients were eradicated, they closed the Knossos, hoping to keep the Shivans from eradicating other species, but there were still some on our side of the portal, that is wave we first fought.
The reason the 2nd wave was larger is because, when we opened the portal, not only did we create new Shivans, we unleashed the ones that were trapped behind it before.
The reason they were able to make Comm Nodes so easily after acquiring ETAK was because of the nature of it. First, the Shivans used the technology on the Iceni to activate the Knossos from long range (I'll change the part in my theory that says it was already open), then they used ETAK to fire a long range high intensity QP blast with the frequency to create the Comm Nodes. Since the range on ETAK is unknown this could be possible, but due the the fact that it was at range, they effect deteriorated and only 3 fully functioning Comm Nodes could be made.
As for why they blew up Capella, even though they Comm Nodes can make subspace fragments, this is a gradual process, this may provide a continuous supply of Shivans, but what would you do, wait for many thousands of years for an army, or create billions of Shivans in only 72 hours?
As for the Shivans being xenocidal, I will have to think about that for a bit before coming up with an answer, though an idea is starting to form.
How would a natural phenomenon shattering create a technologically advanced race?
As I said, subspace does not normally shatter on its own.
I thought the Gamma Draconis nebula was created by a shivan incident similar to Capella...?
Well if I remember correctly, it WAS caused by a supernova but AFAIK we can't be totally sure that it was done by the Shivans.
That is correct, this theory assumes that the nebula on the other side of the Knossos is natural, and was in existence before the Knossos (otherwise the Knossos would have been blown to bits)
Shivans seem to have normal, physical bodies...so that theory about them forming from subspace pulses is...funny.
It's like a strong EM field creating an aircraft carrier + crew.
However, we understand how EM fields work (as a species, I personally have no clue how they work), however we really don't understand subspace, so it is possible.
(I have now updated my theory with this data)
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That has to be the most original Shivan theory ive seen in a long time
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very interesting :yes:
That has to be the most original Shivan theory ive seen in a long time
Thank you very much you two.
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How would a natural phenomenon shattering create a technologically advanced race?
As I said, subspace does not normally shatter on its own.
It is unfathomably unlikely that artificially creating an aperture in subspace would generate intelligent life forms completely accidentally. You might as well just say 'God did it'.
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How would a natural phenomenon shattering create a technologically advanced race?
As I said, subspace does not normally shatter on its own.
It is unfathomably unlikely that artificially creating an aperture in subspace would generate intelligent life forms completely accidentally. You might as well just say 'God did it'.
Unfathomably unlikely != (does not equal) Impossible.
And besides this is only my theory, there are any number of possibilities, but when you think about it, all life has to start somewhere, it is could be possible that all life started from subspace.
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Hmm. I like the idea.
But, just a thought, couldn't we also say that it wasn't the Ancients which created the Shivans, but some other subspace faring race that tried to enter subspace (who were then subsequently wiped out by the Shivans). Subsequent races who managed to use subspace faced the same fate. This meshes in with Bosch's "Cities of Troy" hypothesis...
It is unfathomably unlikely that artificially creating an aperture in subspace would generate intelligent life forms completely accidentally. You might as well just say 'God did it'.
Same with anything creating intelligent life, really.
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perhaps these quantum thingamajigs are a form of anti-entropy? thus any matter it comes in contact with would become the most ordered form of matter: life, in this case shivan life.
a little silly I know, but it makes more sense if you think about it that way.
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Hmm. I like the idea.
But, just a thought, couldn't we also say that it wasn't the Ancients which created the Shivans, but some other subspace faring race that tried to enter subspace (who were then subsequently wiped out by the Shivans). Subsequent races who managed to use subspace faced the same fate. This meshes in with Bosch's "Cities of Troy" hypothesis...
(Anything I type in italics in this post should not be taken seriously)
Yes... Bosch is an all knowing God, all hail Bosch! (i've always wanted to say that)
Well that is possible as well, another race could have made technology that inadvertently or maybe even purposely shattered subspace, but I think it was the Ancients only for the reason that they had time to build the Knossos before they were killed off. Still, anything is possible.
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Unfathomably unlikely != (does not equal) Impossible.
And besides this is only my theory, there are any number of possibilities, but when you think about it, all life has to start somewhere, it is could be possible that all life started from subspace.
Yeah, it's not impossible that if somebody detonates a nuclear bomb some wreckage will come together to form a fully working aeroplane which flies off into the night. It's about equally as likely as what you're positing here.
It is unfathomably unlikely that artificially creating an aperture in subspace would generate intelligent life forms completely accidentally. You might as well just say 'God did it'.
Same with anything creating intelligent life, really.
It's not...natural selection and evolution are much more likely than life simply rising up out of some mysterious fragments of subspace because they follow logic and happen over a much longer time period. Just because a theory is not impossible doesn't mean it is a good one.
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Unfathomably unlikely != (does not equal) Impossible.
And besides this is only my theory, there are any number of possibilities, but when you think about it, all life has to start somewhere, it is could be possible that all life started from subspace.
Yeah, it's not impossible that if somebody detonates a nuclear bomb some wreckage will come together to form a fully working aeroplane which flies off into the night. It's about equally as likely as what you're positing here.
Well a nuclear bomb is different then subspace.
It is unfathomably unlikely that artificially creating an aperture in subspace would generate intelligent life forms completely accidentally. You might as well just say 'God did it'.
Same with anything creating intelligent life, really.
It's not...natural selection and evolution are much more likely than life simply rising up out of some mysterious fragments of subspace because they follow logic and happen over a much longer time period. Just because a theory is not impossible doesn't mean it is a good one.
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Well what if subspace happens to be alive, as in an organic substance, in that case it is possible that with exposure to certain factors (For example: QPs) that they could mutate into something else, like the Shivans, or their ships if they are also organic.
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Unfathomably unlikely != (does not equal) Impossible.
And besides this is only my theory, there are any number of possibilities, but when you think about it, all life has to start somewhere, it is could be possible that all life started from subspace.
Yeah, it's not impossible that if somebody detonates a nuclear bomb some wreckage will come together to form a fully working aeroplane which flies off into the night. It's about equally as likely as what you're positing here.
:rolleyes:
Do you realize what you said is practically identical to a creationist argument?
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Well what if subspace happens to be alive, as in an organic substance, in that case it is possible that with exposure to certain factors (For example: QPs) that they could mutate into something else, like the Shivans, or their ships if they are also organic.
Like the cloverfield monster shedding its scales which become MORE monsters!
But in regards to there being less shivans in the first wave, Well weren't the ancients at war with the shivans for a long time before they got eradicated? If they were more widespread amongst the stars than the GTVA, they might have cut down on the number of shivans, and the first fleet is what is left of the aftermath. I wonder what shivans do in their spare time?
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I wonder what shivans do in their spare time?
The read these forums and laugh at our theories about them as "such a simple race could never understand our motives".
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-Begin rant-
Okay if you are going to devolve this into a match about probability then i have to remind you of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Improbability_Drive#Infinite_Improbability_Drive).
And please dont start it up again, lest i quote EVERY bit of Douglas Adams' Text, and possibly Eoin Colfer's as well, about improbable things happening at you.
-end rant-
Abyss, whom is a new member to this forum, has posted a very interesting and original theory on the shivans. Don't scare him away by posting improbability arguments. In fact i think all these probability arguements should be split off into another thread
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Unfathomably unlikely != (does not equal) Impossible.
And besides this is only my theory, there are any number of possibilities, but when you think about it, all life has to start somewhere, it is could be possible that all life started from subspace.
Yeah, it's not impossible that if somebody detonates a nuclear bomb some wreckage will come together to form a fully working aeroplane which flies off into the night. It's about equally as likely as what you're positing here.
Well a nuclear bomb is different then subspace.
It is unfathomably unlikely that artificially creating an aperture in subspace would generate intelligent life forms completely accidentally. You might as well just say 'God did it'.
Same with anything creating intelligent life, really.
It's not...natural selection and evolution are much more likely than life simply rising up out of some mysterious fragments of subspace because they follow logic and happen over a much longer time period. Just because a theory is not impossible doesn't mean it is a good one.
Well what if subspace happens to be alive, as in an organic substance, in that case it is possible that with exposure to certain factors (For example: QPs) that they could mutate into something else, like the Shivans, or their ships if they are also organic.
I'm aware that nukes are different to subspace, that's called an analogy.
Nothing we've seen suggests that Subspace is alive, it's a fairly massive leap to say it is. Again - 'What if God did it for kicks?' is an equally valid theory.
Unfathomably unlikely != (does not equal) Impossible.
And besides this is only my theory, there are any number of possibilities, but when you think about it, all life has to start somewhere, it is could be possible that all life started from subspace.
Yeah, it's not impossible that if somebody detonates a nuclear bomb some wreckage will come together to form a fully working aeroplane which flies off into the night. It's about equally as likely as what you're positing here.
:rolleyes:
Do you realize what you said is practically identical to a creationist argument?
Yes, but in this context it is sound. Natural selection consists of mind boggling numbers of hypothetical nukes going off across the planet, and indeed the universe, and only a very very small proportion of them creating something useful ie. life. Nowhere do the random events create extremely complex life-forms like Shivans or their vessels.
-Begin rant-
Okay if you are going to devolve this into a match about probability then i have to remind you of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Improbability_Drive#Infinite_Improbability_Drive).
And please dont start it up again, lest i quote EVERY bit of Douglas Adams' Text, and possibly Eoin Colfer's as well, about improbable things happening at you.
-end rant-
Abyss, whom is a new member to this forum, has posted a very interesting and original theory on the shivans. Don't scare him away by posting improbability arguments. In fact i think all these probability arguements should be split off into another thread
Hitch-hikers guide to the Galaxy is fictional, Douglas Adams was a fiction writer, improbably things can happen but generally don't.
If one posts a theory one can't expect that everyone is just going to start applauding it and saying how brilliant it is, it devalues the appreciation to genuinely logical arguments like The Shivan Manifesto, and look how much criticism that one's received.
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Hitch-hikers guide to the Galaxy is fictional, Douglas Adams was a fiction writer, improbably things can happen but generally don't.
Last I checked, so to was FreeSpace.
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Very nice theory, indeed.
Although, myself likes more the idea of the Shivans be an inteligent species that has evolve like any other living organism.
When you have species that have mutate, adapt and evolve and now have the abilities that Shivans have show us in the game that makes indeed an invisible foe.
Remember they are very inteligent they have their own fleet of spaceships and can travel huge distances in space very fast.
Their tactics have no meaning to us but they are very certain of the results they get, Earth, Vasuda Prime, Vega and Capela.
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Yes, but in this context it is sound. Natural selection consists of mind boggling numbers of hypothetical nukes going off across the planet, and indeed the universe, and only a very very small proportion of them creating something useful ie. life. Nowhere do the random events create extremely complex life-forms like Shivans or their vessels.
Given that we still don't fully understand the dynamics of life, I don't think you can say that with such certainty. It may be that life on Earth evolved in a similar way (through lightning striking simple molecules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment)), and while intelligent life couldn't evolve in the same way, we know even less about subspace - It's not really a stretch of the imagination to believe that the Shivans were really "born from the flux of subspace" (quoth Bosch). The Ancients used subspace for quite a long while before the Shivans attacked - Perhaps it wasn't 'instantaneous evolution' as much as accelerated time in subspace.
(And BTW, the Shivan Manifesto made very little sense. Sure it answered the questions, but the answers it gave were terrible and contrived.)
Very nice theory, indeed.
Although, myself likes more the idea of the Shivans be an inteligent species that has evolve like any other living organism.
Bosch did say (or rather, said that the Ancients believed) that the Shivans were 'born from the flux of subspace'.
The Fragment theory is really great sure there are a few faults, but it is one of the few theories that has actually convinced me to some extent.
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This is a horrible theory, as it offers no possible explanation for why the Shivans are not therefore a race divided. The GTA and GTVA has good evidence that Shivans serve a crewing function aboard their ships and fighters, they are not passengers or parasites of some sort, yet this theory posist the implausible that both are the products of simulatanous evolution...which opens up a can of worms who state that the ships are therefore the sentient and dominant form of Shivan life, because they are the ones with the greatest ability to alter their environment. (This is frequent problem with Shivans-as-single-massive-organism theories, as they cause Shivan pilots to be irrevelant, but the Shivan pilots exist and do so in large numbers, and are clearly seperate entities dominant over their ships, so they are not irrevelant.)
I also feel constrained to note as Black Wolf once did that everyone ascribes magical mystical powers to quantum pulses when that's a very fancy way of describing most electromagnetic radiation. There is no reason to believe it could do anything that reeks so heavily of magic.
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This is a horrible theory, as it offers no possible explanation for why the Shivans are not therefore a race divided. The GTA and GTVA has good evidence that Shivans serve a crewing function aboard their ships and fighters
Did I ever once state that the Shivans didn't pilot their fighters, I simply state that their fighters are created in the same way that they are.
I also feel constrained to note as Black Wolf once did that everyone ascribes magical mystical powers to quantum pulses when that's a very fancy way of describing most electromagnetic radiation. There is no reason to believe it could do anything that reeks so heavily of magic.
However that is also not what I said in my there, I say that the fragments change depending on the frequency of the QPs, in other words, the fragments responds to the QPs by changing, it is not the QPs that change the fragments.
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Did I ever once state that the Shivans didn't pilot their fighters, I simply state that their fighters are created in the same way that they are.
It doesn't matter that you stated they didn't pilot their fighters. That's the logical conclusion to be draw from what you represent, and you didn't take it (which is just as well, it's clearly wrong). However by not taking the logical extension, you proposed something even more wrong. You're proposing they evolved in parallel to accomodate each other in a way that is completely without natural precedent. No form of life evolves to be commandeered at a whim by another.
However that is also not what I said in my there, I say that the fragments change depending on the frequency of the QPs, in other words, the fragments responds to the QPs by changing, it is not the QPs that change the fragments.
But that is equally unfulfilling, as the Shivans use these for communication and have been confirmed to do so, and also it implies with a big enough radio they could be defeated by making them all into useless stuff. These are the damned Shivans. It's not going to be that easy.
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I like many of the fundamental aspects of the theory. I think you could get an interesting campaign from it, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise!
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Did I ever once state that the Shivans didn't pilot their fighters, I simply state that their fighters are created in the same way that they are.
It doesn't matter that you stated they didn't pilot their fighters. That's the logical conclusion to be draw from what you represent, and you didn't take it (which is just as well, it's clearly wrong). However by not taking the logical extension, you proposed something even more wrong. You're proposing they evolved in parallel to accomodate each other in a way that is completely without natural precedent. No form of life evolves to be commandeered at a whim by another.
However they could have a more symbiotic relations ship, the Shivans act as a processor for the ship, interpreting the situation and providing the best course of action, while the ship provides a livable environment for the Shivan "pilot".
However that is also not what I said in my there, I say that the fragments change depending on the frequency of the QPs, in other words, the fragments responds to the QPs by changing, it is not the QPs that change the fragments.
But that is equally unfulfilling, as the Shivans use these for communication and have been confirmed to do so, and also it implies with a big enough radio they could be defeated by making them all into useless stuff. These are the damned Shivans. It's not going to be that easy.
First, just because they use them for communication, doesn't mean they only use it for communication. Since they were created from fragments in my theory, and since in my theory, the fragments emit QPs naturally, it is only logical that they would have an affinity for them.
Also, not once did I say that a fragments form can be changed once it is created. Actually its the opposite, once a fragment has a form it cannot be changed.
I like many of the fundamental aspects of the theory. I think you could get an interesting campaign from it, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise!
Thank you, I just might do that. Though first I'll have to finish the campaign that I am currently working on.
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Hitch-hikers guide to the Galaxy is fictional, Douglas Adams was a fiction writer, improbably things can happen but generally don't.
Last I checked, so to was FreeSpace.
Are you trying to analyse it as though it is a real universe, or creating a theory you think is really cool and interesting? If it's the latter then you've obviously succeeded with some people, if it's the former then I'd suggest in the future you improve this theory by using things like evidence or facts from the game.
Yes, but in this context it is sound. Natural selection consists of mind boggling numbers of hypothetical nukes going off across the planet, and indeed the universe, and only a very very small proportion of them creating something useful ie. life. Nowhere do the random events create extremely complex life-forms like Shivans or their vessels.
Given that we still don't fully understand the dynamics of life, I don't think you can say that with such certainty. It may be that life on Earth evolved in a similar way (through lightning striking simple molecules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment)), and while intelligent life couldn't evolve in the same way, we know even less about subspace - It's not really a stretch of the imagination to believe that the Shivans were really "born from the flux of subspace" (quoth Bosch). The Ancients used subspace for quite a long while before the Shivans attacked - Perhaps it wasn't 'instantaneous evolution' as much as accelerated time in subspace.
(And BTW, the Shivan Manifesto made very little sense. Sure it answered the questions, but the answers it gave were terrible and contrived.)
You think it is anywhere near realistic that using subspace would form completely random 'fragments' which turn out to be life-forms capable of destroying the civilisation which created them within a period of time less than on the order of millions of years? What evidence is there that time is accelerated in subspace?
Do you think the answers to the questions posed here are any less terrible or contrived?
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Honestly, people, he's well within his rights to postulate whatever he likes regarding subspace and the rules thereof.
There's plenty of room for creative freedom within the FSverse.
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Hitch-hikers guide to the Galaxy is fictional, Douglas Adams was a fiction writer, improbably things can happen but generally don't.
Last I checked, so to was FreeSpace.
Are you trying to analyse it as though it is a real universe, or creating a theory you think is really cool and interesting? If it's the latter then you've obviously succeeded with some people, if it's the former then I'd suggest in the future you improve this theory by using things like evidence or facts from the game.
Neither, I'm just sharing what I think, and if you want to point out probability (this is either going to be good or bad for me since I don't know some of this, but I'll do my best to make this work), then please tell me what the probability is of there being other sentient life in this galaxy that we have no knowledge of, and despite the GTVA's constant expansion into many systems, not one encounter with the Shivans, or even the existence of 2 or more sentient species in the same galaxy. In any event, the base of my theory maybe improbable, and I will accept it, however, to me that is irrelevant unless you can prove that it is impossible.
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wow, that's a crazy theory! some things seem a little off , but I kinda like it ^^
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But... NGTM-1R, maybe you're not thinking out of the box enough. Imagine Subspace itself as a living organism. If the Knossos Portal acts the way Abyss says it does, and it rips a piece off the organism then it has to defend itself. Although the theory is a little shaky, its fun to think about. Subspace organisms work in mysterious ways...
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Yes, but then we just get the "why aren't they self-contained" thing again.
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Yes, but then we just get the "why aren't they self-contained" thing again.
Can you elaborate on this a bit?
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Human beings consist of internal organisms that operate symbiotically like the crew of a ship. And we emerged from freak energetic accidents, too! I don't see anybody decrying us as impossible.
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wow, that's a crazy theory! some things seem a little off , but I kinda like it ^^
I like it too, but paradoxically, I hope that it isn't true. It is a nicely crafted theory from our perspective but :v:, the practical Gods of their universe, surely had come up with a more, shall I say, materialistic theory?
I mean, we don't know virtually anything and we are holding upon every possible idea, bumping in the dark room of Shivan theories.
For :v:, I really hope that they aren't that cheap to use such an abstract explanation for all that happened (or, worse, an explanation like that) (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/thatguywiththeglasses/cs/11035-cslost)
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Basically, you're saying that the ships and the Shivans are all from subspace.
But you're not saying that they evolved together. You're saying they evolve seperately. However they're clearly dependant on each other in a way that makes seperate evolution impossible. We ought to get random ships and Shivans floating around seperate from each other this way, but we don't, and if we ought to get ships and Shivans seperate from each other, then they should be more equal in terms of intelligence, but they're not.
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I don't think the idea is to think what :v: thought (which likely wasn't much), it's to generate ideas that could be used.
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Basically, you're saying that the ships and the Shivans are all from subspace.
But you're not saying that they evolved together. You're saying they evolve seperately. However they're clearly dependant on each other in a way that makes seperate evolution impossible. We ought to get random ships and Shivans floating around seperate from each other this way, but we don't, and if we ought to get ships and Shivans seperate from each other, then they should be more equal in terms of intelligence, but they're not.
lol, unfortunately, I know too little about the subject of evolution to defend myself at this time.
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Honestly, people, he's well within his rights to postulate whatever he likes regarding subspace and the rules thereof.
There's plenty of room for creative freedom within the FSverse.
Indeed, and equally we're well within our rights to criticise his theory, point out it's flaws, particularly when he's asked for comments on it.
Neither, I'm just sharing what I think, and if you want to point out probability (this is either going to be good or bad for me since I don't know some of this, but I'll do my best to make this work), then please tell me what the probability is of there being other sentient life in this galaxy that we have no knowledge of, and despite the GTVA's constant expansion into many systems, not one encounter with the Shivans, or even the existence of 2 or more sentient species in the same galaxy. In any event, the base of my theory maybe improbable, and I will accept it, however, to me that is irrelevant unless you can prove that it is impossible.
OK I can't prove that it's impossible, there is almost nothing one can prove to be impossible, I'm just trying to show you where the flaws in your theory are - eg. lack of evidence.
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Honestly, people, he's well within his rights to postulate whatever he likes regarding subspace and the rules thereof.
There's plenty of room for creative freedom within the FSverse.
Indeed, and equally we're well within our rights to criticise his theory, point out it's flaws, particularly when he's asked for comments on it.
Agreed, but many of the flaws seem to be based on a particular framing of the FSverse (subspace doesn't do this! Shivans don't act like that!) that, while parsimonious, is not exclusive.
And there is such a thing as constructive criticism, mind.
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For any phenomena in space to just create shivans + their ships is.... idiotic.
You might as well say that Buttercap Slytherin Shalazar the $th, God pony of giant midgets ate some bad chili and crapped them out. Frankly, your theory ventures into surreal and mind**** territory.
Let's list some facts, shall we?
#banana:
Subspace is basicly another dimension (or a sub-layer of hte universe). There's nothing magical about it.
##:
G-orez ni devlove ,cinagro ylraelc era snavihS
#Toaster:
Their ships are not organic, but metalic. They are built, not grown.
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Evolved or created, we don't know.
And subspace is highly energetic, which is sort of weird. Some kind of heat bath effect...?
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For any phenomena in space to just create shivans + their ships is.... idiotic.
You might as well say that Buttercap Slytherin Shalazar the $th, God pony of giant midgets ate some bad chili and crapped them out. Frankly, your theory ventures into surreal and mind**** territory.
First off, let me just say thats a good theory. Secondly, ...i love surreal and mind**** territory :[
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And I personally like a theory that makes sense.
Like Snail's Theory.
This one's certainly interesting but...a little strange.
Fragments of a dimension becoming....ships and Shivans, and gaining intelligence is, frankly, surreal.
I mean, isn't subspace just some blue swirly thing? :D
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The idea that they are native to subspace isn't strange. What is strange is the idea that they just popped out with their ships.
Human evolution lasted for millions of years.
All we see from subspace is a blue, swirling vortex.
Now, if you assume there's enough matter ni subspace, somewhere - then it's not too much of a stretch to assume that some form of life evolved in subspace. It grew, it developed and it started living near large clumps of matter. They continue evolving and start altering themselves, start creating artificial habitats (like space stations or more probably ships. They could be nomadic.) And they don't like subspace travel since someone crosses their turf.
Now personally I'm not terribly fond of this theory either (I believe it's more likely the shivans were created by someone else...someones war machine that got out of control.) But at least this theory is more plausible than "subspace got mad and it crapped out shivans and their ships".
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That's also fair, yeah.
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Well J.M. Straczynski of Babylon 5 fame came up with an interesting theory which he used as the core religious beliefs of the minbari: That the Universe is sentient and that all life and so on it the universe making itself manifest so it can figure itself out...
Personally, i think that makes more sense than some of the stuff that organized religions continually spout.
I should also note that JMS is a self-confessed atheist (no offense to any of the [Name your God/dess] squads on the forum).
And i think this theory raises another question: What if subspace itself is sentient and the Shivans are like antibodies?
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Well, yes, I'm not against them being native to subspace, but ships and fully-formed organisms being, well basically spontaneously generated is arcane.
I mean, instead of "Subspace got mad and crapped up Shivans and Ships", its just "Subspace suddenly crapped out Shivans and Ships". If they developed in subspace, fine. If subspace developed them actively over time as antibodies, etc., fine. But I'm against them basically just suddenly appearing.
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Alternate universe sure this could work but I would have trouble buying into this one for a current-FSverse explanation for the shivans.
For several reasons, along with those already being debated, secondarily;
We did nothing to trigger the first Shivan invasion.
Neither specie had anything like the kind of tech to influence subspace in that fashion, not GTI nor PVN Intel were even close.
It's also hinted that the GTI knew quite explicitly (in the original ST, not just ST:R) that the Shivans were around and incoming.
It is an original(well, ish) and decent idea (I do like it) for sci-fi in general but it wont work in the direct FS Universe established as Canon in my eyes, even as Fanon, it's a bit too much of a stretch, at least without some serious fleshing out.
But yea, in an alternate universe you could make both specie more advanced in terms of subspace management and then explain away the reason between the difference in FS1 and FS2 Shivan behaviour (since your campaign explains their origins it's going to have a better understanding of them).
But the likelihood of a immediate formation of a complex organism with such diversity but a singular language and single type of 'cell' inside (which is just about the only way you'll be able to explain it away (the ships being alive/The Shivans) without going from sci-fi to biblical fiction as mentioned before, though the thread serves as a useful reminder to how easy it is to make religious **** up) is lolworthy.
As for the infinite improbability drive, being a comedy, it was created by a finite improbability drive by a student because he realised that if they had decided that if the infinite improbability drive was a virtual impossibility it had to be a finite improbability it's a pisstake that Adam's wrote about on **** like this ;p
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I wonder...if subspace (basicly a 5th dimension) is alive....does that mean that the X-coordinate in the universe is also alive? Or that time is alive?
This raises so many interesting questions...
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True. But answering them would require a new definition of what life is...
I mean by the current criteria for something to be alive, Fire can technically be classified as a form of Life