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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Solatar on November 05, 2009, 02:12:33 pm

Title: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Solatar on November 05, 2009, 02:12:33 pm
I'm playing through the main Freespace 2 campaign for the first time in awhile, and I'm in the section where you fly for the Vasudan squadron.  Although I'm getting the hang of the Serapis as a fighter, its designation as an "Advanced Interceptor" still bothers me.  As is the case with many FS2 vessels, overclocking your speed does next to nothing; and the shields seem to be so close to the fighter that anything gets through.  I like it as a light space superiority fighter, but as an interceptor it has very little going for it.

Thoughts?

Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Narvi on November 05, 2009, 02:47:54 pm
Aren't interceptors in Freespace basically bomber and bomb hunters? The Serapis's speed would be pretty important for that.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: stuart133 on November 05, 2009, 03:43:47 pm
Yeah, but it's overly close shields kinda ruin the bomb hunting part of that. And its paper armour means that even the most useless bomber can hose you with its turret and take you down.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Sushi on November 05, 2009, 04:40:27 pm
On the other hand, it DOES mount the Maxim, which is excellent for both popping incoming warheads and taking out turrets.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Topgun on November 05, 2009, 05:03:23 pm
The serapis is a stunt plane, that's all.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Solatar on November 05, 2009, 05:27:09 pm
It's speed is nice, but it overclocks to only 78 (original 75).  Any known reason why this is?
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Snail on November 05, 2009, 05:42:06 pm
The Serapis is good for hunting bombers because of the underslung dual mount which commonly mounts Maxims. Good for shooting down bombs, neutralizing turrets on enemy capships, and when coupled with a Mekhu HL-7 or anti-shield weapon, can chew through bomber wings very easily.

For everything else though I view it as mostly useless. Shields and armor are like tissue paper soaked in toilet water, honestly.

It's speed is nice, but it overclocks to only 78 (original 75).  Any known reason why this is?
Yeah that is weird. It's relatively slow without afterburners (actually a lot slower than the Horus), it's got paper thin armour and can't carry the Trebuchet. The only thing it has going for it is a relatively thin target profile (which all Vasudan fighters have) and compatibility with the Maxim...

I think I'll choose the Horus from now on... Much faster, negligible shield difference and compatibility with Trebuchet and Kayser (admittedly with limited capacity/weapon energy). Can do everything the Serapis can do, but better...
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Commander Zane on November 05, 2009, 06:25:26 pm
It's speed is nice, but it overclocks to only 78 (original 75).  Any known reason why this is?
Doesn't the Bahka not overclock at all regardless of what you allocate into the engines?
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Galemp on November 05, 2009, 06:46:00 pm
At least it charges your afterburners faster.

The Serapis, like the Perseus, is more of a well-balanced dogfighter and turret-killer than its FS1-era counterpart. The Horus and Valkyrie were built for raw speed to hunt sluggish bombers, whereas FS2 bombers are more manouverable and fire at longer range.

Beam turrets are also at least as dangerous as bombers, so shifting the interceptor hardware to fulfill multiple roles makes some tactical sense.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 05, 2009, 06:55:37 pm
None of the missions in which the Serapis is default are interceptor missions, and it's fragility means it struggles with a space superiority or (god forbid) assault roll. The Horus is a much superior craft for both interceptor and multirole really; its only really noticible flaw in comparison is smaller secondary banks, and it's faster with stronger shields.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Aardwolf on November 06, 2009, 12:04:57 am
I don't remember which, but IIRC there's at least one ship whose max overclock speed is WORSE than the normal max speed. Still, with afterburners it might not matter.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Asakura on November 06, 2009, 12:44:15 am
Serapis is a hard one. Firstly it lacks the speed required for an interceptor. Secondly the armor is paper-thin, literally. Last but not least, for bomb-interception and turret popping it lacks trebs, and maxim does not make up for it - 1.4k less range and not the best choice for shooting down torpedoes especially since you risk damaging the ship you are defending. This is somewhat saved by the fact that you do not have to do much escort/defense in this ship.

On the other hand the ship is VERY maneuverable, and its guns are better placed than any other Vasudan fighter. Its reactor output is also relatively high, so you can actually afford to drop a notch on gun energy into shields. Personally that is enough reason to fly this on the Vasudan missions, since with the exception of the two bombing runs there is no better ship should you know how to handle this kite properly.

So on the overall, yes, the Serapis is alright as a light superiority, which works for the missions you get it in general. Maxim is a plus since you get to pop capital ships for extra points when your hands are not filled with strike craft.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: General Battuta on November 06, 2009, 01:14:48 am
The issue is that the missions frequently bring you close to Shivan warships which have a nasty tendency to skewer you with AAA beams.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: TrashMan on November 06, 2009, 01:21:08 am
It's speed is nice, but it overclocks to only 78 (original 75).  Any known reason why this is?
Doesn't the Bahka not overclock at all regardless of what you allocate into the engines?

Table bugs. [V] made a few oversights...it happens
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Narvi on November 06, 2009, 01:25:28 am
Is it fixed in the SCP?
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: General Battuta on November 06, 2009, 01:26:18 am
Nope, because it's not a bug.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Asakura on November 06, 2009, 01:54:21 am
The issue is that the missions frequently bring you close to Shivan warships which have a nasty tendency to skewer you with AAA beams.

Most of those I generally try to snipe out the AAAs with a Maxim or just use my wingmen as fodder :P
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 06, 2009, 03:07:26 am
Trebs are not particularly useful against bombers, I'd rather have a maxim by far.

As for uses of the Serapis...
Scrap metal?
Horrible fighter, Horrible.
Sucks as Space Superiority unless you're talking about 1on1 TvT and you already vastly outskill your opponent (it's light enough that you'll never get touched, unless they take a loki).
Sucks as Intercept unless you blitz in and out before the bombers can turn on you (...doesn't happen on insane, just doesn't).
Sucks as Assault period.
It has one useless primary bank and one useless secondary bank, useless shields, slower than the ship it's replacing.


The ONLY thing it has going for it IS the maxim.
Well, and that awesome primary bank, but still, I'd rather fly pretty much any other ship in the Vasudan Armada.
..And that's saying something since almost all the badly designed ships are Vasudan.

They have one decent bomber, and their fighters are intensely situational with very little overlap.
And they're all stupidly big when it comes to target profile in dogfights :<
/Rant

So yea, Advanced Interceptor, because it really can't do anything else.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Kosh on November 06, 2009, 03:17:40 am
Yeah, but it's overly close shields kinda ruin the bomb hunting part of that. And its paper armour means that even the most useless bomber can hose you with its turret and take you down.

If that bomber wing is carrying Pirahna's then your Serapis wing will die pretty fast.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 06, 2009, 03:38:35 am
Yeah, but it's overly close shields kinda ruin the bomb hunting part of that. And its paper armour means that even the most useless bomber can hose you with its turret and take you down.

If that bomber wing is carrying Pirahna's then your Serapis wing will die pretty fast.
Talking AI vs AI?
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Kosh on November 06, 2009, 04:06:40 am
Both. Even the shockwave does enormous damage to it, and it doesn't really have the speed to outrun it. On Argonautica I always use the Tauret because I never made it out alive with a Serapis.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 06, 2009, 04:10:42 am
stay off the firing angle the missile has quite a lot of travel time and the smaller warheads are pretty easy to dodge, especially in a serapis, but yea, I'd fly a tauret too if I didn't make good use of the speed.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Kosh on November 06, 2009, 04:14:49 am
Well one Pirahna isn't a huge problem, its when you have the entire incoming bomber wing shooting them all off very close together that it becomes very serious.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 06, 2009, 04:18:22 am
Uhm... Why would 4 bombers be pointed directly at you when you're flying intercept?
Wouldn't that kinda defeat the point of being an interceptor?

Generally I dart in on one maybe drawing a second one off their target depending on how close they are, but that's never something you have to worry about in that mission.
Then go back and finish another/the rest.
Doesn't take long even on insane (even with the shield bug) with the right weaponry (proms/tempest).
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Asakura on November 06, 2009, 04:21:31 am
I only tend to fly either the Horus or the Serapis on Argonautica... never quite got the hang of taurets. The burners are fine and the speed is not absolutely hopeless, but turn rate does leave quite a lot to be desired. Never had any real problems with pirahnas either, other than having to move out of firing angle to dodge them.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Commander Zane on November 06, 2009, 04:26:24 am
Uhm... Why would 4 bombers be pointed directly at you when you're flying intercept?
Wouldn't that kinda defeat the point of being an interceptor?
Happens to me plenty of times, and it's not because I fly into their line of fire, it's because they always bring it to me.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Asakura on November 06, 2009, 04:32:42 am
Aquarius wing does have a tendency to dog you, especially after the Aquitaine jumps out, even more so if the rest of Alpha wing is out. Still rarely a problem though, the most the pirahnas should do is force you off the tail of one of the Nahemas. Just dodge, burn away and resume chase or hit the next closest bomber.

EDIT: This is specific to Argonautica of course, if you are being chased by bombers otherwise you are definitely doing it wrong ;p
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 06, 2009, 04:47:50 am
Aren't they normally all dead before the Acquitaine jumps? :<
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Asakura on November 06, 2009, 04:49:48 am
There should be about 5-6 waves total, The most I managed to kill befoe the Aquitaine jumps out is 4 of them.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 06, 2009, 04:54:10 am
I feel I am going to have to play through the continue my play through when I get home tonight.

But yea, if bombers are coming at you in a group, assuming it's not on insane (then it takes a bit more work which I cba going in to) just corkscrew into them, and blow the crap outta one of them before the rest turn around, then just chip away at them.
It's a ***** with the lack of ai twitch but it is doable, you just have to get behind them without dying.
Certainly though it's not fish I worry about when they do that, it's those mega lasers :<
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Iranon on November 06, 2009, 05:23:11 am
A very strange craft. It's good at getting the job done when left alone (best secondary loadout of the light fighters if you can live without Trebuchets, Maxim compatibility, decent gun placements), it can survive furballs better than most others thanks to its target profile and agility. However, you can forget about mixing the two since you can't ignore being shot at, not even for a short time.

This could be so much better. Being a Maxim platform would be so much more useful if reactor output actually did anything. And anything that's supposed to be an 'advanced interceptor' should really be compatible with Trebuchets.
It does fix a hole in the Vasudan lineup (they don't have any other craft able to carry Maxims and anti-fighter primaries at the same time), but it doesn't do so brilliantly... they still don't have a nimble craft that can withstand some punishment. The Thoth and Horus still excel at their respective jobs, the last thing the Vasudans needed was another ultralight craft.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 06, 2009, 06:39:50 am
A very strange craft. It's good at getting the job done when left alone (best secondary loadout of the light fighters if you can live without Trebuchets, Maxim compatibility, decent gun placements), it can survive furballs better than most others thanks to its target profile and agility. However, you can forget about mixing the two since you can't ignore being shot at, not even for a short time.

This could be so much better. Being a Maxim platform would be so much more useful if reactor output actually did anything. And anything that's supposed to be an 'advanced interceptor' should really be compatible with Trebuchets.
It does fix a hole in the Vasudan lineup (they don't have any other craft able to carry Maxims and anti-fighter primaries at the same time), but it doesn't do so brilliantly... they still don't have a nimble craft that can withstand some punishment. The Thoth and Horus still excel at their respective jobs, the last thing the Vasudans needed was another ultralight craft.

Perseus has a better secondary weapon loadout, the Serapis' is Terrible.
Do you want a list of how many ships can fit inside the stupidly wide firing arc of the primary and secondary wide banks on the Serapis? cuz it's pretty big :P
The Serapis does NOT have a small target profile.
It doesn't.

If combat took place in a straight line, or you could permanently face your enemy regardless of which direction you were flying (ie; you were playing ****tonian physics) then sure, it would have a small profile.
However dogfights take place in a rotating furball with variation - the target profile of almost ALL vasudan ships is ABSOLUTELY HUMONGOUS, it's HIDEOUS most of them are as big as a Myrm and that's saying something!
The idea that Vasudan's have a small target profile is an absolute myth.

Just LOOK;

(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b177/QuantumDelta/FightProfiles.jpg)
I mean ffs :P
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Commander Zane on November 06, 2009, 07:39:45 am
Compared to Terran fighters Vasudans have the smallest fore and aft profiles because they're flat pancakes.
The Pegasus is that big? :wtf:
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Asakura on November 06, 2009, 07:57:33 am
Yeh, the pegasus is actually pretty big. However it is flat like Vasudan fighters making it hard to hit if you are not shooting from the right angle, and also hard to spot without AWACS because of its colour and design.

That picture only shows top-down of the strike crafts so it does not really give a very good idea of how big the target really is. For example all the Vasudan fighters, the Elysses, Pegasus and Astaroth have thin side profiles. The Dragon and Manticore also have reasonably smaller profiles from the side. The Erinyes on the other hand looks pretty compact in this one but is really quite blocky from the sides, as are the Herc MkII and Ares. The only truly huge fighters on that chart are Herc, Basilisk and Aeshma; Ares is arguable but that thing flies like a granite block anyway.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Black Wolf on November 06, 2009, 09:56:50 am
That's actually a really good picture. I've never realized just how small the dragon is - that might have as much to do with their being difficult to kill as their table stats.

Oh, and the Thoth is a way better Space superiority fighter than the serapis, and much prettier to boot :)
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 06, 2009, 12:45:01 pm
Play some multiplayer TvT games, or spectate on me playing a tvt game, you will see how THIS is the only perspective that matters ;\

Side, front, back, you never see it, you typically see the top or bottom side of a ship from a very slightly rearward perspective, and because of the way it's moving your shots only ever see it from more or less this angle.

Disclaimer;
Average to good pilots only (read; 80+% of pilots).
The best wont let eachother on eachothers screens.
And bad pilots die before you get into that kind of situation. >.>
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Mura on November 06, 2009, 01:32:56 pm
Yeh, the pegasus is actually pretty big. However it is flat like Vasudan fighters making it hard to hit if you are not shooting from the right angle, and also hard to spot without AWACS because of its colour and design.

That picture only shows top-down of the strike crafts so it does not really give a very good idea of how big the target really is. For example all the Vasudan fighters, the Elysses, Pegasus and Astaroth have thin side profiles. The Dragon and Manticore also have reasonably smaller profiles from the side. The Erinyes on the other hand looks pretty compact in this one but is really quite blocky from the sides, as are the Herc MkII and Ares. The only truly huge fighters on that chart are Herc, Basilisk and Aeshma; Ares is arguable but that thing flies like a granite block anyway.


You know what else has a thin profile? a sail on a sailboat, and yet it is the easiest target to set on fire and bring the whole ship into a nice fireball, it's the same with the vasudan ships, they might be thin from the sides, but they make a HUGE SAIL TARGET when you engage a turning dogfight, easy targets, trust me
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Commander Zane on November 06, 2009, 02:19:32 pm
However it is flat like Vasudan fighters making it hard to hit if you are not shooting from the right angle, and also hard to spot without AWACS because of its colour and design.

You know what else has a thin profile? a sail on a sailboat, and yet it is the easiest target to set on fire and bring the whole ship into a nice fireball, it's the same with the vasudan ships, they might be thin from the sides, but they make a HUGE SAIL TARGET when you engage a turning dogfight, easy targets, trust me
Asakura already pointed the wide profile issue. :P
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Asakura on November 06, 2009, 02:46:26 pm
Yeh, the pegasus is actually pretty big. However it is flat like Vasudan fighters making it hard to hit if you are not shooting from the right angle, and also hard to spot without AWACS because of its colour and design.

That picture only shows top-down of the strike crafts so it does not really give a very good idea of how big the target really is. For example all the Vasudan fighters, the Elysses, Pegasus and Astaroth have thin side profiles. The Dragon and Manticore also have reasonably smaller profiles from the side. The Erinyes on the other hand looks pretty compact in this one but is really quite blocky from the sides, as are the Herc MkII and Ares. The only truly huge fighters on that chart are Herc, Basilisk and Aeshma; Ares is arguable but that thing flies like a granite block anyway.


You know what else has a thin profile? a sail on a sailboat, and yet it is the easiest target to set on fire and bring the whole ship into a nice fireball, it's the same with the vasudan ships, they might be thin from the sides, but they make a HUGE SAIL TARGET when you engage a turning dogfight, easy targets, trust me

Vasudan ships suffer the most from this and I am well aware. Does not change the fact the Pegasus is hard to spot and keep up with though, even if it does show you the top profile at any point.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 06, 2009, 07:52:20 pm
Perseus has a better secondary weapon loadout, the Serapis' is Terrible.

Call bull****, the Serapis' first secondary bank is half again as large.

The idea that Vasudan's have a small target profile is an absolute myth.

Translation: I have no idea how to use my fighter's rate of roll to present my small side profile at all times.
 
The AI can do that. The mother****ing AI. Don't tell me you're a good pilot, you just vacated all right to the title. :P
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: General Battuta on November 06, 2009, 07:57:55 pm
Man, no offense, but I really do trust QuantumDelta's hours of flight experience here.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 06, 2009, 08:01:56 pm
If he can't roll his damn fighter, the man has issues. :P

Besides, I don't, and I don't think most of us in this forum, really give a damn about multi. That's certainly not why the game is still around.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Mongoose on November 06, 2009, 08:10:30 pm
Besides, I don't, and I don't think most of us in this forum, really give a damn about multi. That's certainly not why the game is still around.
I don't doubt that QuantumDelta is a fantastic pilot, but I do agree with this statement; most of us are far more concerned about what FS2's AI does than what happens in a 1-on-1 multiplayer dogfight.  What I do know is that, given my style/level of play and the difficulty I play on, I spend most of my dogfighting time staring at the ass-end of my target, at which point the Vasudan ships' hull thinness becomes very beneficial.  In fact, I think the quickest I've been able to kill something like a Horus has been in an Ursa, of all things, since I can just sit back and let them fly broadside across my field of fire.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 07, 2009, 04:43:14 am
In human vs human fights you're both rolling, you match eachothers rate of roll (which, btw, as a keyboard only pilot is really quite challenging vs joystick pilots, and mouse users either have to keybind it to their mice or they're a bit boned).

Vs AI, however, I shouldn't think it should matter, entire wings of ships die before you get there  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Spoon on November 07, 2009, 05:02:04 am
Besides, I don't, and I don't think most of us in this forum, really give a damn about multi. That's certainly not why the game is still around.
I don't doubt that QuantumDelta is a fantastic pilot, but I do agree with this statement; most of us are far more concerned about what FS2's AI does than what happens in a 1-on-1 multiplayer dogfight.  What I do know is that, given my style/level of play and the difficulty I play on, I spend most of my dogfighting time staring at the ass-end of my target, at which point the Vasudan ships' hull thinness becomes very beneficial.  In fact, I think the quickest I've been able to kill something like a Horus has been in an Ursa, of all things, since I can just sit back and let them fly broadside across my field of fire.
Agreed. I spend most of my timing modding and playing user made campaigns, gave up on multiplayer after 3 sessions because its just not much fun to play.
Back profile issues became Really apparant for me when playing one of those babylon project campaigns. There are a bunch of fighters there with Really thin profiles when viewed from the back. Making them incredibly hard to shoot down.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 07, 2009, 05:20:11 am
Note my disclaimer about physics Spoon ;p

It wont help in TBP but if a ship being thin on an edge really does bother you, and you know you wont need a maxim or what have you, take your primary anti-fighter weapon of choice (proms/kay) and a morning star and you'll find it bothers you a lot less from then on (note; morning stars aren't meant to be spammed, only a few, extremely rare pilots can hold down ctrl/primary fire, with a morning star and keep their target pinned, I know I can't, but the keyboard is the hardest medium to do it on).
Additionally this is another reason why tempests beat aspect seekers, on ships like these you can use it as a third primary either when you get glancing chances on non-profile shots or when you get close enough to hit them sideways on.

In any case the AI behaviour is simple to manipulate, anyone who's played multi with me will see me spamming orders with our AI all the time, a few people have tried to mimic this more recently but I'm not sure they quite got the jist of it yet (well, apart from E).

For anyone who hasn't;

The AI, once they do their 'run away from you so you can only shoot at them from behind and at long range', if you stop shooting them, and just track them, and have your ai ignore them/focus another nearby target, the fighter you're still tracking will turn round, rather abruptly. When they do, not only will they be going slower, and not having locked on to you yet, not putting pressure on you, they will be turning in a way that presents most of their ship to you, with decent weaponry you can clear them in one pass.
Typically when flying against AI with no humans around to pester me, I tend to ignore fighters shooting me (unless they're all that's left), even on insane, and focus on fighters that are shooting my AI, they're easier targets and it clears up waves significantly faster.

If you fly intelligently you never have to deal with the 'profile' of Vasudan, or even some Shivan ships, because YOU control the AI (even the hostile AI), not visa versa.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Snail on November 07, 2009, 05:50:23 am
I only play multi because I like blowing up other humans. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside to feel that someone on the other side of the world is seeing the respawn screen.


Also, stats. :nervous:
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 07, 2009, 05:51:58 am
Lets not turn it into multi vs single though cuz that will only end up going in one direction, and it'll piss everyone off ;p
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Spoon on November 07, 2009, 09:28:52 am
Quote
The AI, once they do their 'run away from you so you can only shoot at them from behind and at long range', if you stop shooting them, and just track them, and have your ai ignore them/focus another nearby target, the fighter you're still tracking will turn round, rather abruptly. When they do, not only will they be going slower, and not having locked on to you yet, not putting pressure on you, they will be turning in a way that presents most of their ship to you, with decent weaponry you can clear them in one pass.
Even though I now know of this exploit, I will absolutely refuse to use it. There a few ways that can drain the fun faster for me then A.I opponent exploiting.
Play to win =/= play for fun in freespace for me

Oh wait, this thread was about the Seraphis right?  :p
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 07, 2009, 10:27:31 am
You mean you like the ai running away on max afterburner and having to chase after it wasting your time when you are on an objective?
Cuz it bugs the hell outta me, no human would ever do that - presenting such a zzz target, them turning around is about the same, just requiring less time.

But yea, it's why you see me spamming orders, to control targets or release them from control, to group the ai to make formation attacks and to ensure that targets are protected/attacked in a coordinated fashion, it's not much different from how you would really react if someone were really running away from you, if you stopped firing/locking them they're gonna turn around and come back at you (unless they're leaving the area, which just isn't a thing in FS).

It's one of the many tiny nuances that leads to the kill counts you see in our games ;\
And don't think for a minute that STV would be possible on insane without the use of most of them, good fred missions take all these tricks into account on insane.
That's why there are so few good ones.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: CP5670 on November 07, 2009, 10:50:41 am
Quote
And don't think for a minute that STV would be possible on insane without the use of most of them, good fred missions take all these tricks into account on insane.

You can easily encounter Taurets and other ships head on in STV Gauntlet, depending on how you approach the mission. The basic strategy we used two years ago was to run away when the cruisers appeared, turning around occasionally and picking off the pursuing fighters at 1500m with the Prometheus S. Since they are chasing you, you will be seeing them from the front.

I've seen fighters head on numerous times in other co-op missions too, probably more often than in singleplayer in fact.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 07, 2009, 11:08:08 am
If they're flying in a straight line, exactly what makes them hard to hit ? :<
As a side, I never did approve of that tactic, ;p maxim/treb abuse from max range always felt cheap, like circumventing content.
I think BD and I only used it if we had ancillary players.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: CP5670 on November 07, 2009, 11:37:14 am
It's not really hard, but the point is that you see them from the front where they present a thin target. The front profile of a ship is relevant in a lot of situations.

I used to stick with the Prometheus in that situation anyway, saving the Trebuchets for the cruisers.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 07, 2009, 12:17:58 pm
But yea, head-on is the only way you'll find ai in profile regularly unless they're chasing a ship whilst you're chasing them, and in both situations they're flying in a straight line :<

Personally people missing a (relatively) none moving object is pretty bad no matter how small it is :P
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Macfie on November 07, 2009, 12:34:08 pm
Another thing with the AI is they really only react to being targeted.  If you go after the fighters you are not targeting you can get into a more advantageous position before you open fire.  They will react once you open fire.  You can move into an advantageous aspect and open fire with everything you've got.  This works good with any of the fighters with a narrow vertical aspect.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Mongoose on November 07, 2009, 01:06:58 pm
Personally people missing a (relatively) none moving object is pretty bad no matter how small it is :P
With joystick ramping the way it is?  It can be harder than you think. :p
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 07, 2009, 08:51:34 pm
You say to the keyboard only pilot  :lol:
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Scotty on November 07, 2009, 08:53:07 pm
That means don't bash the people who use a joystick for missing like that ;)
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 07, 2009, 08:55:59 pm
Joy ramping is not entirely digital, the best pilots should be using max sensitivity and zero deadzone(if you're not it's even easier).
Keyboard ramping is entirely digital, there is nothing you can do but either get it right first time or have to constantly readjust.

Keyboard usage for pinpoint accuracy on a stationary target is one of the few situations where the joystick is better ;P
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Mongoose on November 07, 2009, 09:09:21 pm
If I was using max sensitivity, I'd be even worse than I am right now, because my main problem is that I always overshoot whatever I'm trying to aim at. :p I was more referring to the built-in ramping in the engine, which a few coder-types have actually been working on to the best of my understanding; there were a number of test builds that they asked people to compare and list their preferences that I unfortunately never got around to.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 07, 2009, 09:23:39 pm
Try it on your joy then try it on your keyboard with the numberpad, tell me which you think is easier :P

Aiming during a furball with the keyboard is significantly easier because you only have 2(6) modifiers to really care about, but when you're talking about an unmoving dot on the screen the joystick is significantly faster to it, and faster to settle.
Feather touches!
Although it can be a ***** on some joysticks, even the Cyborg series (which, I hate) can handle it ok in FS.

Naturally it is easier to swap to the mouse regardless of which control interface you're using :<

Also, although I didn't stick with it for long (because the gain in skill level would have been so minimal in the end) I actually found no deadzone/max sense to be easier than any significantly noticeable deadzone and lower sense, just feels more natural :<
(again, with a cheapy cyborg evo), wonder if it helps against the ramping playing like that.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on November 07, 2009, 10:55:12 pm
It looks cool.
I like it.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Droid803 on November 08, 2009, 12:31:55 am
The SF Dragon is an Advanced Interceptor. (or alternativey, a Pain in the Ass)
See that tiny profile from all angles, high speed, and shields that can actually take a hit?

The Serapis is an Advanced Piece of Paper designed to appear (quite convincingly) like a fighter until it's taken into combat.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Asakura on November 08, 2009, 02:31:24 am
The Dragon is not an Advanced Interceptor. The Dragon is the ship you do not want to be dogfighting.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Iranon on November 08, 2009, 08:23:47 am
The Dragon is a hard-to-swat gnat and is only a nightmare in single player because you don't have the time to take them out. It would be a useful ship to give to my wingmates (if all I require from them is distracting my opponents AND there are no capital ships around) but I certainly wouldn't want to fly one myself.

Interceptors need to take something down before it can threaten whatever we are supposed to defend... with half the missile capacity of a typical interceptor and primary firepower considerably worse than a single bank of 2 Subachs, the Dragon can't do that.

Interesting fact: Its firepower is so poor that in a straight shootout, it would lose to any GTVA craft with the strongest weapons it can carry... including Stealth fighters and Vasudan lights with their less-than-impressive shields. 'How am I supposed to kill a nimble Dragon when they are so small and have shields that strong?' simply becomes 'How am I supposed to kill a nimble <insert GTVA light fighter of choice> when my weapons are that weak?'.
A competent pilot piloting a dragon would be almost unkillable, but they won't make a meaningful contribution to any fight. The Loki is probably the most survivable GTVA dogfighter... but very often it's passed over because it lacks the firepower to do a given job quickly enough. The Dragon is far, far worse.
To add insult to the injury: A Dragon is completely helpless against anything heavy playing gun turret; GTVA lights still have enough firepower to make this risky.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Spoon on November 08, 2009, 08:32:20 am
Of course if you are going to allow the player to fly a dragon, it should be able to carry decent weaponry. Like the terran mara.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Dragon on November 08, 2009, 09:12:07 am
In FS1 mission "Playing Judas"
Spoiler:
You have to pilot captured SF Dragon to infiltrate Shivan fleet. Though it's weakened in this mission, it uses Terran weaponary and I think it was really fun to fly in this mission. When you get attacked by enemy fighters, it's capable of fighting them instead of running (at least on medium in original FS1 I haven't played FS1 nor FSPort on higer difficulties jet).
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 08, 2009, 09:17:40 am
Works on insane too Dragon you just have to be a bit sharp on your turns if they launch missiles at you.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Dragon on November 08, 2009, 11:55:54 am
That's one of the things I liked the most about it, you almost don't need countermeasures to fool Shivan missiles, they are just too unagile to get you if you know how to evade them. (this works on other fighters as well, but SF Dragon is best suited for it). Manticores just aren't fast nor agile enough to be dangerous even to a Terran version of Dragon if it's handled by a skilled pilot.
On a side note, if somebody wants to fly Shivan ships (including a Shivan version of Dragon), there's a really good campaign called "Tides of Darknees" (here: http://freespacemods.net/download.php?view.456 ).
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: CP5670 on November 08, 2009, 02:38:36 pm
The Dragon's secondary capacity sucks but it has a fairly good primary weapon layout. It's not easily visible in Playing Judas, but the second bank with the Prometheus has three mounts that are very close to each other. So it has the same number of mounts as the Ursa, but with much better placement for aiming.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: General Battuta on November 08, 2009, 03:11:50 pm
Let's put Balors on them!
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Thaeris on November 08, 2009, 03:13:36 pm
NO.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Scotty on November 08, 2009, 03:22:09 pm
Balors would be fun.  ;7
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Hades on November 08, 2009, 03:32:07 pm
On a side note, if somebody wants to fly Shivan ships (including a Shivan version of Dragon), there's a really good campaign called "Tides of Darkness" (here: http://freespacemods.net/download.php?view.456 ).
The only good thing about Tides of Darkness is flying Shivan ships, but let's not go into that.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: General Battuta on November 08, 2009, 03:32:56 pm
Oh, come now, there's no need to be such a downer. I liked many things about ToD.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Snail on November 08, 2009, 03:34:12 pm
Oh, come now, there's no need to be such a downer. I liked many things about ToD.
Yeah, but I didn't. No offense to Droid803 but the storyline made little sense and was also badly delivered.

The novelty of using Shivan weapons and ships wore off quickly too.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Kosh on November 09, 2009, 12:30:58 am
Quote
To add insult to the injury: A Dragon is completely helpless against anything heavy playing gun turret; GTVA lights still have enough firepower to make this risky.


The Dragon was a nightmare in FS1, but thankfully in FS2 we have a wonderful new weapon that it is totally helpless against: Anti Fighter Beams.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: ChronoReverse on November 09, 2009, 01:45:41 am
If you're going to be flying a wimpy (but speedy) fighter, why not just fly the Pegasus instead?  The speed and agility of the thing is fun if you're only worried about killing snubfighters.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on November 09, 2009, 02:33:54 am
Mind you, I will prefer the Serapis over any other Vasudan light fighter simply because it has an excellent pitch-turn-bank rate and decent gunpoints.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: headdie on November 09, 2009, 03:11:43 am
Quote
To add insult to the injury: A Dragon is completely helpless against anything heavy playing gun turret; GTVA lights still have enough firepower to make this risky.


The Dragon was a nightmare in FS1, but thankfully in FS2 we have a wonderful new weapon that it is totally helpless against: Anti Fighter Beams.

I spent what felt like 5 minutes in FS1 trying to kill the last dragon in one mission cause i was in a herc and couldn't keep the damn thing in weapons range
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Commander Zane on November 09, 2009, 03:25:59 am
Let's put Balors on them!
YES.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Iranon on November 09, 2009, 05:12:30 am
I think the Dragon stood out more in FS2 because you never saw decent firepower from opposing fighters anyway (Prometheus R...), rendering its main disadvantage moot. In FS1, Dragons might have been hard to kill but I never feared them as much as I did HoL Thoths with their 4 Prometheus cannons. If you were flying a Valkyrie you could not afford mistakes against those.

Sure, a Dragon would be nice when outfitted with Terran weaponry. But that's starting to get very speculative... why not request some armour bolted on as well, (it worked for the Terran Mara, without compromising manoeverability), a Serapis retrofitted with Shivan shields and Kayser/Trebuchet compatibility or bombers with 1 Kayser and 1 Morning Star turret.
I'd rather compare craft in their default and proven-compatible state and assume that major upgrades are not feasible on a large scale (e.g. a Terran Mara might be a wonderful thing to fly but a nightmare to service because of mismatched technology).
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Asakura on November 09, 2009, 06:08:09 am
Mind you, I will prefer the Serapis over any other Vasudan light fighter simply because it has an excellent pitch-turn-bank rate and decent gunpoints.

Point in reference. 7 runs through the standard campaign, with the exception of Bearbaiting and High Noon I have only flown on the Seth and Thoth once each and Horus twice. While the armour is paper-thin it is quite a joy to fly as long as you know how to dodge with this thing.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: asyikarea51 on November 09, 2009, 06:24:11 am
Probably the n00b way I fly, but I never liked the Serapis. Kept dying anyway even with Maxim cannon on sniper.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 09, 2009, 08:40:26 am
Nah, although it does work if you use it well, the serapis is one of the hardest fighters in the game to make work.
Horus is perhaps a little harder though.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Mongoose on November 09, 2009, 10:23:59 pm
Quote
To add insult to the injury: A Dragon is completely helpless against anything heavy playing gun turret; GTVA lights still have enough firepower to make this risky.


The Dragon was a nightmare in FS1, but thankfully in FS2 we have a wonderful new weapon that it is totally helpless against: Anti Fighter Beams.

I spent what felt like 5 minutes in FS1 trying to kill the last dragon in one mission cause i was in a herc and couldn't keep the damn thing in weapons range
At that point, the best thing to do is probably to just sit still and let it come to you.  You might be able to get in a missile salvo when it's head-on, and you'll at least be able to throw some primary fire in its direction.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on November 10, 2009, 06:22:37 am
Nah, although it does work if you use it well, the serapis is one of the hardest fighters in the game to make work.
Horus is perhaps a little harder though.

The Horus is only worse off because it has less shields and a crap pitch rate which makes it more of a Vasudan Manticore than any other Vasudan ship in FS1 or FS2.

That aside, the Horus is good. Good speed, and the (crap) placement of its guns means that it is actually better at intercepting bombs simply because they have a large impact area.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Kosh on November 10, 2009, 07:06:27 am
Quote
If you're going to be flying a wimpy (but speedy) fighter, why not just fly the Pegasus instead?  The speed and agility of the thing is fun if you're only worried about killing snubfighters.


IIRC the Pegasus actually has more amor than any other interceptor.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on November 10, 2009, 07:12:53 am
Yeah, but armour isn't recoverable in-flight.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Iranon on November 10, 2009, 08:12:15 am
Armour of the Pegasus is between the Terran and Vasudan lights... not spectacular. However, it has decent shields: barely worse than the Perseus', and far better than those of the Serapis/Thoth/Horus. The tech room desription calling it a death box is a blatant lie.

The problem is horrible firepower. You won't get killed but you'll hardly kill anything either.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Commander Zane on November 10, 2009, 08:31:20 am
Hey it can carry the Prometheus S, that's good enough for one bank. :P
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: ChronoReverse on November 10, 2009, 09:47:53 am
Yeah, survivability is no worse (and actually better) than the Horus and Serapis.  A single bank of Prometheus S isn't amazing but it's workable when you carry the single load of Tempests as well.  But besides all that, it's fun to fly =)
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Kosh on November 10, 2009, 10:22:41 am
Armour of the Pegasus is between the Terran and Vasudan lights... not spectacular. However, it has decent shields: barely worse than the Perseus', and far better than those of the Serapis/Thoth/Horus. The tech room desription calling it a death box is a blatant lie.

The problem is horrible firepower. You won't get killed but you'll hardly kill anything either.


Dual Kaysers will make up for that, at least on Easy you can uswe them like Subachs.

Quote
That aside, the Horus is good. Good speed, and the (crap) placement of its guns means that it is actually better at intercepting bombs simply because they have a large impact area.


Actually it's primaries aren't THAT bad for intercepting Shivan bombers, because except for the Nahema and the Shaitan they have huge profiles that are spread out over a large area. A good example is the Nephilim.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 10, 2009, 01:37:09 pm


Actually it's primaries aren't THAT bad for intercepting Shivan bombers, because except for the Nahema and the Shaitan they have huge profiles that are spread out over a large area. A good example is the Nephilim.


We've soooooooooooooooooo been over this.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Iranon on November 11, 2009, 02:06:08 pm
Armour of the Pegasus is between the Terran and Vasudan lights... not spectacular. However, it has decent shields: barely worse than the Perseus', and far better than those of the Serapis/Thoth/Horus. The tech room desription calling it a death box is a blatant lie.

The problem is horrible firepower. You won't get killed but you'll hardly kill anything either.


Dual Kaysers will make up for that, at least on Easy you can uswe them like Subachs.

Problem 1: The Pegasus only has one gun bank (although that does, of course, have 2 guns.)
Problem 2: The Pergasus is not compatible with Kaysers. Prometheus S is the best you get.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Dragon on November 11, 2009, 04:27:19 pm
You had confused Pegasus with the Perseus, Kosh. Perseus is a Terran interceptor which have two gun banks that can carry Kaysers, Pegasus is a stealth fighter you face in one mission in FS campaign and, unfortunately, cannot fly in standard campaign (though get you fly it's Vasudan counterpart, which has larger target profile and isn't as good). It's incompatible with Kaysers and have only one bank, but has paper thin rear profile, superior speed, maneuverability and stealth capabilities, meaning that no aspect missile can lock on you (due to the bug, heatseekers can, but they are easy to dodge) and turrets will not fire at you unless you're either very close, firing weapons, or using afterburner, or there's an AWACS nearby.
Both are fun to fly, but I prefer Pegasus due to it's better speed and ability to outmaneuver most of it's enemies. It lacks in firepower and armour though, making it a flying coffin when there's AAA and flak armed enemy capship nearby (I mean serious business capships, Cain for example, doesn't count and Pegasus can kill it relatively easly. to kill a Fenris though, you have to make good use of your stealth to get to it's blind spots, or AAA fire will shred you).

EDIT: You could fly Pegasus in main campaign mission "Endgame", but it's not recommended and unless you have very specific flight style, there are better fighters for this mission.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Thaeris on November 11, 2009, 04:30:21 pm
I thought there was a retail mission where you could fly this fighter, though it wasn't at all standard/recommended and wouldn't win you any real benefits.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Dragon on November 11, 2009, 04:35:11 pm
Yes, there was, "Endgame", but it wasn't a good choice there.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Thaeris on November 11, 2009, 04:49:18 pm
Yalp. I remember that I used it to play a mission in a runthrough of the FS2 main campaign. They had a hard time hitting me, but the darn thing was so sensitive that I couldn't hit them well, either!  :D
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: ChronoReverse on November 11, 2009, 06:52:13 pm
You know, I could have sworn I used the Pegasus in more than just Endgame.  Are you sure that completing the SOC missions doesn't unlock it for a few other missions?


Incidentally, the Pegasus isn't even that much weaker than a Perseus in terms of shields and armor.  Too bad the weapons loadout isn't nearly as good but at the speed, agility and stealth is nice.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Kosh on November 11, 2009, 10:31:47 pm
Quote
You had confused Pegasus with the Perseus, Kosh. Perseus is a Terran interceptor which have two gun banks that can carry Kaysers, Pegasus is a stealth fighter you face in one mission in FS campaign and,


Sorry their names look so much alike I get them confused easily.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on November 12, 2009, 06:44:03 am
Yes, there was, "Endgame", but it wasn't a good choice there.

Whenever I use it in that mission, I play hide-and-seek.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Droid803 on November 12, 2009, 08:03:06 pm
Seeing as you can pass that mission by intercepting the first wave of bombers, the Pegasus is a fine choice.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: ChronoReverse on November 12, 2009, 10:45:43 pm
On hard mode with the Prometheus S and Tempest, you can basically kill the opponents within seconds.  My wingmen all get killed off quickly no matter what I do but being stealth I can live long enough to take them all on =)
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Kosh on November 12, 2009, 10:50:03 pm
It's only stealthy if the stealth dealy is enabled in FRED. Without that it is still kind of tough to kill given its low profile, high speed, and superb manueverability. If flown right this could very well be the Terran version of a Dragon.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Asakura on November 14, 2009, 05:27:59 am
Yes, there was, "Endgame", but it wasn't a good choice there.


Lovely box to fly in that mission if you ask me. Prom-S and Tempests. Real joy to dogfight Ulysses as well, and the rest of the mission is basically killing Hercs and Medusas around Collie. Just avoid the Aeolus and the Deimos, though you actually have a good chance of getting the kill for the Layola if you throw enough tempests on it and get the Fortune to kill it. The Deimos is a little dangerous to try since it can skewer you relatively quickly by that point in the mission.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Dragon on November 14, 2009, 06:17:18 am
I must try flying it someday on Endgame (it was a long time since I played main FS2 campaign, I also played on Easy at that time), on Hard or Insane.
Also, I don't remember what was the outcome, but the first time I played Endgame (on Very Easy, even longer time ago), I tried Pegasus just because it was something that I didn't flew before. I might have passed this mission in it, but I'm not sure (I wasn't a good pilot at this time, I didn't even managed to complete SOC loops on Very Easy in that  playthrought).
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on November 14, 2009, 09:49:26 pm
Actually, I tend to see the Serapis and Loki as GTVA counterparts of the Dragon.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Asakura on November 14, 2009, 09:57:48 pm
Except that the Loki is actually durable.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Iranon on November 17, 2009, 03:43:08 am
In a 1 on 1, these craft may compare (because twice the firepower on one side and twice the durability on the other side would appear equal)... but not in the bigger picture.

The Serapis has twice the primary firepower of a Dragon, 4 times the secondary loadout but a third of the shields....  one is an unkillable gnat while the other is a (very agile) glass cannon. If the Vasudans want an unkillable gnat, they have to bring out the Ptah which has far better shields than their other light fighters; the Serapis and Thoth are delicate but deadly.

I still think the Loki is the perfect dogfighter - enough primary firepower that it can't be ignored (unlike any Shivan fighter), good enough shields to do their job while under fire themselves (unlike any Vasudan light craft), and a sturdy enough hull to not spontaneously explode at the mere mention of AAA (unlike Dragons, and even the Ulysses needs to watch out).

Asakura makes a good point about the Loki's durability - discounting the souped-up Mara, the best-handling Terran craft with more shields are the Erinyes and HercII; that's quite a drop in flight performance.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on November 17, 2009, 05:05:06 am
If the Vasudans want an unkillable gnat, they have to bring out the Ptah which has far better shields than their other light fighters;...

Unfortunately, the Ptah is the size of a giant turd, so that affects its survivability somewhat.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Asakura on November 18, 2009, 05:14:57 am
I rarely load UD-8s so whether or not Serapis can use those hardly bothers me. What bothers me though is while its top primary bank is nicely placed the bottom bank is a tad wide. I usually load Prom on top and Maxim below, latter mainly for capships.

Loki is quite a decent fighter for intercept as well. It has the fastest burners among the GTVA fighters, it actually shows some nice increase in speed with power shunted to engines and it also has great reactors for sustained fire when it comes to gunning bombers. Secondaries I usually just load trebs and forget about them after I finish unloading.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: QuantumDelta on November 18, 2009, 05:28:32 am
If you're working against the clock in any fashion, or facing overwhelming odds in your dogfight the loki isn't worth that much more.
The 'excess' manuverability it holds is, excess, you can get an eri to turn about as fast as most people can turn a loki if you fly it properly, and the eri has about 10x the firepower, comparing the two isn't a great idea because they're there for different reasons.

If this were an RPG and you could taunt and keep agro of all the enemy fighters the loki would be lovely, cuz then you could let everyone else blow up what's shooting at you, but with only 4 banks (primary) and a small secondary bank you lose a huge, huge amount of firepower, and you will quickly see your squad vanish into small explosions in the night sky if you aren't helping (well, on well balanced missions).

The loki DOES make a decent interceptor, but it's really not space superiority, it doesn't have the 'oomph' to make the difference.
Wheny ou consider what you can load an eri out with compared to a loki for a little loss in unneeded defences against most ships/scenarios you'll want the eri.
The loki would beat the eri 1on1 though - assuming equal and respectable skill levels on behalf of both pilots.

Well, assuming the eri doesn't blow the loki up in one pass.
I would be trying for that if BD were coming at me in a Loki -.-
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Iranon on November 18, 2009, 08:09:26 am
@ Asakura: Unfortunately, reactor capacity does nothing in the unmodified game to my knowledge, and I'm not aware of any mod that changes that either. The Loki and especially Serapis  would be truly sweet otherwise... although I like both of them as it is.

As it is, gun recharge is proportional to max capacity - on the same energy setting, it takes the same time for everyone to recharge from empty to full. As such, higher capacity is very useful. This hurts the Ulysses quite badly for example: maximum energy of 80 rather than 150 (most FS2-era Terran fighters, Ursa, Serapis, Thoth) or 100 (most others). It's also a problem for Vasudans who want heavy primary firepower - all of their Kayser-compatible ships only have 100 points. So while you can put quad Kaysers in a Tauret, you can't use them as liberally as you could in a Terran fighter.

I think the same applies to shields but I'm not 100% sure.

*

The Loki is an awesome dogfighting machine  that is rarely practical if getting the job done is a bigger problem than survival. You could argue that its survivability allows you to be more reckless which in turn lets you cause more mayhem... but heavyweights like the Erinyes aside, do you really need those last few percent of performance over the Perseus so badly that you can justify giving up 3/4 of the secondary loadout? I adore the Loki and strongly dislike the Perseus (in my eyes the only fighter without a hint of personality) and in a 1on1, the Loki tears the Perseus' pants off... but rationally the Perseus is a better compromise of performance and firepower in most situations.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Macfie on November 18, 2009, 11:11:48 am
You can use the energy transfer system to effect the weapons recharge rate and or the top speed.  The max afterburner speed is fixed but by transferring energy to engines you can increase the recharge rate.  In FS1, unlike the other fighters and bombers, if you increased the energy to the Loki's engines the speed went down.
Title: Re: Serapis - Advanced Interceptor?
Post by: Thaeris on November 18, 2009, 02:17:43 pm
Strange, really. I think I'd take a Herc 2 over an Eri in most cases. Actually, the handling of the two fighters is exactly the same - the only difference is that the Eri is 10m/s faster. It also has more hitpoints, though its shielding is inferior. Overall, it's less survivable... primarily due to the fact that it's a massive target. I'd call it more of a "Heavy Space Superiority Fighter" rather than an assault fighter.

The Loki is my second favorite after the Herc 2. The fighter qualifies as a superiority fighter when the density of hostiles is not tremendous... or there's not too much cap-ship action nearby. When you're in really dense fire though, you want something with a little more firepower - the Loki is a little lacking in this respect.