Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Wiki Project => Topic started by: TopAce on December 03, 2009, 05:42:46 pm
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Grunt minion22 edited the descriptive statistics for some Shivan fighters (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Special:Contributions/Grunt_minion22) (Maneuverability and Armor). He said he had a source, but he wasn't specific about it. Previously, they were just "N/A", as they should be according to the retail tables. Whatever he found there must be something fan-made. We have a couple of strange things here: Allegedly, the Aeshma's maneuverability is "Excellent" and the Nephilim's armor is "Light Capital".
Does anyone know where these pieces of info come from?
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No idea, but I tried it, and he's right. With just a single TBM (no MediaVPs) allowing me to fly a Seraphim, I can see those descriptions. Who woulda' thought....
EDIT: Here's the relevant shp.tbm:
#Ship Classes
$Name: SB Seraphim
;; Note no descriptions here.
$Allowed PBanks: ( "Subach HL-7" )
$Default PBanks: ( "Subach HL-7" "Subach HL-7" "Subach HL-7" )
$Allowed SBanks: ( "Rockeye" "Tempest" )
$Default SBanks: ( "Tempest" "Tempest" "Rockeye" "Rockeye" )
$SBank Capacity: ( 40, 40, 80, 80 )
$Flags: ( "player_ship" "bomber" )
#End
EDIT2: I believe it's hard-coded. In missionshipchoice.cpp circa line 1070 you can find some of those strings.
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But...the Aeshma having "Excellent" maneuverability is just...WRONG.
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I suppose those stats don't have to correspond to in-game stats. I hear that's similar for the Prometheus S, right?
EDIT: After reading it again, You probably knew this already, though.
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Actually in this case, they do correspond to in-game stats, but they use a different scale from Terran and Vasudan craft (which have proper descriptions).
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Who committed this (atrocity)?
I'm guessing this was put in as placeholder text for ships without anything in the statistics fields...?
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Is the Aeshma actually good for anything? At all? Besides being cannon fodder?
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Is the Aeshma actually good for anything? At all? Besides being cannon fodder?
It'd be good as a cargo container if it could dock with freighters.
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But...the Aeshma having "Excellent" maneuverability is just...WRONG.
For reference, its $Rotation time is 3.3, 3.3, 3.7. That's not bad, but I wouldn't call that "Excellent," given that the Perseus has 3.3, 3.3, 3.3 and its maneuverability is only "High".
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The Basilisk, at least would be deadly with a human pilot flying it. The AI just doesn't know how to fly a Basilisk at all.
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The Basilisk, at least would be deadly with a human pilot flying it. The AI just doesn't know how to fly a Basilisk at all.
Well the Basilisk is slow and unmanueverable, even in the hands of a human pilot it is still cannon fodder for space superiority fighters and to some degree intercepters because it is too easily outmanuevered. They are hoowever major threats to freighter and cruisers, I suppose it could be thought of as the shivan equivelent of the Aries.
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Is the Aeshma actually good for anything? At all? Besides being cannon fodder?
In a head-to-head fight Aeshmas are fairly competent. The Shivans have a known problem with assuming a single pass will be enough.
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Aeshma is basically a lighter version of the Basilisk, isn't it? Assault, swarm missiles, etc....
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to some degree intercepters
When a Perseus can easily take down six Basilisks in a single pass if you do it right? :P
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The Perseus is really more of a space superiority fighter, though...
...However, that's still a good point! :P
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When they appeared in FS1 I thought of the Basilisk as being the Shivans Herc. Pretty much everything they had was the alternate version of what we had, but a bit better, more dangerous, and more specialized at what it did. The Basilisk AI can be taken down super easy by the player in any fighter, but get behind the squad and start firing, but you, or any bomber or cruiser are caught in front you will get mincemeated.
I do not see the Nep having light capship armor.
The Seraphim? Definitely. It takes almost as many hits as a cain class cruiser...
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to some degree intercepters
When a Perseus can easily take down six Basilisks in a single pass if you do it right? :P
I was reffering to afterburners with guns, namely the Serapis and the Horus.
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Can anyone verify if the SCP really did add this "feature" before I revert the changes?
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I do not see the Nep having light capship armor.
The Seraphim? Definitely. It takes almost as many hits as a cain class cruiser...
The Nephilim and Seraphim have the exact same armor/shield stats :wtf:
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placebo
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I find Seraphims easier to kill because the retail model has a glitched shield mesh and trebs can go right through the front quadrant of its shields and kill it.
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The Basilisk, at least would be deadly with a human pilot flying it. The AI just doesn't know how to fly a Basilisk at all.
Well the Basilisk is slow and unmanueverable, even in the hands of a human pilot it is still cannon fodder for space superiority fighters and to some degree intercepters because it is too easily outmanuevered. They are hoowever major threats to freighter and cruisers, I suppose it could be thought of as the shivan equivelent of the Aries.
The Basilisk is not unmaneuverable. Its turn rates are superior to GTVA heavy assault fighters. It seems less maneuverable in the hands of the AI because the AI does not attempt to maneuver in it.
I do not see the Nep having light capship armor.
The Seraphim? Definitely. It takes almost as many hits as a cain class cruiser...
The Nephilim and Seraphim have the exact same armor/shield stats :wtf:
Indeed, and the total damage required to kill one is much less than 1/10 or even 1/20 the hitpoints of a Cain. Even accounting for shield recharge, it should take a bit over 1000 damage to kill a Nephilim or Seraphim.
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Technically, if you fired at the bombers with a Maxim, it'd feel like it's taking as many hits as a Cain...but that's because maxims suck against heavy shielding, not because of "light capital" grade armor...
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I'm pretty sure that "Light Capital" refers to armor plus all shield quadrants put together, not just one. But it's pointless to debate the sense of that without knowing whether the "Light Capital" description is Retail or SCP.
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I'm pretty sure "Light Capital" was cited as being retail on the first page of this thread...
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I'm pretty sure "Light Capital" was cited as being retail on the first page of this thread...
Can anyone verify if the SCP really did add this "feature" before I revert the changes?
I don't know...
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I am pretty sure "Light Capital" did not appear on any retail things.
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I am pretty sure "Light Capital" did not appear on any retail things.
We're talking about modded files, but the retail executable. Assuming this is a since-retail thing, it would have only appeared if you made a Shivan ship player-flyable.
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Would that give it the same status as the Aeolus tech description? Or less?
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Less because you can't ctrl-shift-s it?
Or is that a FSO feature?
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I am pretty sure "Light Capital" did not appear on any retail things.
We're talking about modded files, but the retail executable. Assuming this is a since-retail thing, it would have only appeared if you made a Shivan ship player-flyable.
It is not the retail executable because he used a .tbm.
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We're talking about modded files, but the retail executable. Assuming this is a since-retail thing, it would have only appeared if you made a Shivan ship player-flyable.
It is not the retail executable because he used a .tbm.
IRRELEVANT. Just because he did it with a non-retail .exe doesn't mean it's not a feature that's been there since retail. Unless someone runs retail and tries it, we won't know if this feature was around then. Although an SCP guy could also probably figure it out.
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We're talking about modded files, but the retail executable. Assuming this is a since-retail thing, it would have only appeared if you made a Shivan ship player-flyable.
It is not the retail executable because he used a .tbm.
IRRELEVANT. Just because he did it with a non-retail .exe doesn't mean it's not a feature that's been there since retail.
That is exactly what's in question now.
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Ok, I'm asking the guys on #scp now.
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We're talking about modded files, but the retail executable. Assuming this is a since-retail thing, it would have only appeared if you made a Shivan ship player-flyable.
It is not the retail executable because he used a .tbm.
IRRELEVANT. Just because he did it with a non-retail .exe doesn't mean it's not a feature that's been there since retail.
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS ASKING!!!!!
:o
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Alright, you have 3 days to prove these statistics were there since retail, then I am removing them.
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Well if they're not on the ship Table of Root, then wouldn't it not be a Retail feature?
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Well if they're not on the ship Table of Root, then wouldn't it not be a Retail feature?
:rolleyes:
It is not in root. It is a hard-coded "feature" that is activated if you do not specify statistics in the fields..
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Why not confirm it yourself then?
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Why not confirm it yourself then?
:rolleyes:
Because I don't have access to the Source Code. And even if I did I wouldn't know how to interpret it.
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Just for the hell of it, I looked through the original retail source as released by :V:. The code that produces those replacement strings when there is no tbl data available is not part of it (or if it is, it has been moved to a different area of the source code).
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Why not confirm it yourself then?
:rolleyes:
Because I don't have access to the Source Code. And even if I did I wouldn't know how to interpret it.
Apparently it does nothing since I tried giving the Myrmidon similar tables to a Shivan fighter and got errors up the wazoo.
Tried another approach, made the Aeshma flyable, and here's its stats:
Type: Fighter
Lenth: 29M
Max Velocity: 69m/s
Maneuverability: Excellent
Armor: Heavy
Gun Mounts: 4
Missile Mounts: 1
Manuvafturer: Shivan
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Why not confirm it yourself then?
:rolleyes:
Because I don't have access to the Source Code. And even if I did I wouldn't know how to interpret it.
Apparently it does nothing since I tried giving the Myrmidon similar tables to a Shivan fighter and got errors up the wazoo.
Tried another approach, made the Aeshma flyable, and here's its stats:
Type: Fighter
Lenth: 29M
Max Velocity: 69m/s
Maneuverability: Excellent
Armor: Heavy
Gun Mounts: 4
Missile Mounts: 1
Manuvafturer: Shivan
What build did you use?
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5716.
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Okay, but that means basically nothing. As I've said above, the code that puts out those stats was NOT present in retail. That is, they are a later addition,. which means that the info is non-canon. End of story.
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(or if it is, it has been moved to a different area of the source code).
Then you made a contradictory post by claiming that it might be hidden somewhere else. :rolleyes:
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No, I didn't. The code that controls this behaviour in FSO is in missionshipchoice.cpp. I cannot find equivalent code in the retail source. Thus, unless someone proves (by using the actual exe) that retail did this, I'm assuming that it doesn't.
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The fact that the game wouldn't load if I tried changing the Myrmidon to match a Shivan fighter should be proof enough that it doesn't exist.
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Removing.