You can give it to specific individual ships, not just classes. Could make one Aeolus a beast and another a lamb.
It makes the Aeolus and Deimos nearly unassailable in many respects. Wander into a flak envelope and you're gone.
Could definitely put it on destroyers, though. And ironically a lot of StratComm's ships lack flak, so they are pretty balanced with it (they just turn into blob hell.)
Put bluntly, scary capships break the game. FS is about the power and the dominance of the fighter. It always has been. INFR1's Phobos is about as far as you can push the capship towards scary without having made it something that's no longer FreeSpace.
I'll give a by to the Diaspora guys because scary Battlestars are also integral to their particular universe. But not anything that's not a TC.'
I'm also a great believer in the ability of fighters to engage in stand-off attack against capital craft...provided the big boys have a chance at intercepting inbounds. Forcing people to FRED a tactically rational attempt to overwhelm a ship's defenses is good.
Think of destroyers as carriers with really heavy artillery. They need escort. They simply don't have the turret coverage to give a good account of themselves against fighters or bombers. And for the most part they're rather underarmored for what they do, too!
Blah.
Well, even in a fighter-centric game, scary capships can serve to demonstrate the absolute necessity of said fighter. For example, if you need to bring in another scary capship to take out scary capship number one, you can bet, whatever the difficulty, someone WILL be sortie-ing wings against it, prompting the need for friendly wings.
Truthfully, something always struck me wrong about how in FS anything can fall beneath your mighty.... 20 meter fighter.
You do realize that this is a mod forum and a thread about game balance in mods, right? You seemed to have gotten lost; I would recommend going here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?board=7.0).Blah.
Truthfully, something always struck me wrong about how in FS anything can fall beneath your mighty.... 20 meter fighter.
Art imitates life? :P
Let's be honest here. The Aeolus is already a match for most of us on Insane. Fury's AI simply brings the level at which it becomes a match down; but if we wanted to be doing that, we'd be raising our difficulty level up. The effort to make it harder than hard for those who don't like Insane anymore has decided to penalize those who never did. This is A Bad Choice.
You do realize that this is a mod forum and a thread about game balance in mods, right? You seemed to have gotten lost; I would recommend going here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?board=7.0).
You're not supposed to be a match for your opposition. You and your allies are supposed to be a match for your opposition. As far as I'm concerned, attacking a capital ship alone should be foolhardy and lead to a pilot's death. Fighters have strength in numbers. The more fighters there are, the better they fare. Fury's AI gives your wingmen a massive boost, to the point where the proper use of them can mean the difference between a successful mission and a very dead Alpha 1.
But I don't consider the original way of doing things necessarily the best way of doing things, nor the way the FreeSpace universe (as it may be expanded by a mod author) will always operate. The one constant about weapons and warfare is that they are always evolving and changing. Weapons and tactics fall in and out of favor, the balance of power shifts. As far as I'm concerned, the "spirit of FreeSpace", looked upon from an in-universe perspective (I tend to look at sci-fi universes as a setting first and a game as merely an approximation of a setting), could be a very transitory state of affairs caused by the state of weapon and ship technology in the year 2367. The way FreeSpace is balanced changed dramatically between FS1 and FS2, given another generation it could change radically again; if it were to continue further in the FS2 direction, "scary capships" would be the result.You do realize that this is a mod forum and a thread about game balance in mods, right? You seemed to have gotten lost; I would recommend going here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?board=7.0).
And I cast the choice as faithfulness to the original, to which you responded with much mod-talk. I recommend rereading what you were responding to.
But again, that's not the way FS handles things or has ever handled things. The game and the genre lack the proper tools to enable a player to truly coordinate an attack on a capital craft as you describe or even to ensure enough fighters will make it to the point of contact to make such an attack! Do your capital craft run around without escorts? Do the escorts not have Fury's AI as well and thus match your own fighters so that you must fight them and take casualities? Just how contrived are you prepared to make things to ensure that your scenario plays out? Some missions broke their processes in FS2, but truly the classic FS player-vs.-capship battle of mods has always been that the player is the one who manages to make it through the fighter screen most quickly or had the most focus on his mission. And you want to penalize them for knowing what their job is!Their job is (at least theoretically) to fight as part of a unit, because military forces do not act alone. Im fact. the tips that FS presents new users even reinforce this--one of them even recommends sending your wingmen in ahead of you and following them in once the enemy has engaged them. Even if many of them die, every turret or fighter shooting at your wingmen is one not shooting at you, and will buy you more time to start blasting turrets as quickly as possible. You could even FRED missions so that capship attacks are done in stages, with friendly small craft assets neutralizing heavy weapon turrets and pulling back to allow capital ships or a heavier class of bombers to deliver the killing blow. Sure, Alpha 1's inherent superiority over other entities in the game can be fun, but so is watching a combined arms strike unfold.
And why are you so eager to dismiss my point about penalizing mediocre players? Do you just not want them here, or do you not care since it does not effect you personally?Most of these errors are not caused by lack of raw player skill, they are caused by improper judgment and poor choices.
But I don't consider the original way of doing things necessarily the best way of doing things, nor the way the FreeSpace universe (as it may be expanded by a mod author) will always operate. The one constant about weapons and warfare is that they are always evolving and changing. Weapons and tactics fall in and out of favor, the balance of power shifts. As far as I'm concerned, the "spirit of FreeSpace", looked upon from an in-universe perspective (I tend to look at sci-fi universes as a setting first and a game as merely an approximation of a setting), could be a very transitory state of affairs caused by the state of weapon and ship technology in the year 2367. The way FreeSpace is balanced changed dramatically between FS1 and FS2, given another generation it could change radically again; if it were to continue further in the FS2 direction, "scary capships" would be the result.
Their job is (at least theoretically) to fight as part of a unit, because military forces do not act alone. Im fact. the tips that FS presents new users even reinforce this--one of them even recommends sending your wingmen in ahead of you and following them in once the enemy has engaged them. Even if many of them die, every turret or fighter shooting at your wingmen is one not shooting at you, and will buy you more time to start blasting turrets as quickly as possible. You could even FRED missions so that capship attacks are done in stages, with friendly small craft assets neutralizing heavy weapon turrets and pulling back to allow capital ships or a heavier class of bombers to deliver the killing blow. Sure, Alpha 1's inherent superiority over other entities in the game can be fun, but so is watching a combined arms strike unfold.
That's why I think "Nemesis" was Inferno R1's sole great mission. It was the interplay and cooperation of fighters, bombers, and capital ships that made the attack on the EASD Nemesis more memorable than anything else in the mod with the possible exception of the Gigas (which you only got to watch). I also liked the way the Nemesis herself responded, reacted, and retaliated in a way that seemed like her captain was actually trying to win a battle rather than sitting there throwing beams around.
And keep in mind that Alpha 1's coordination should only be on the wing or squadron level. Capital ship captains, flag officers, and Command (i.e. the mission designer) should be coordinating the assault as a whole.
Also remember that on difficulties below Hard, your wingmen with Fury's AI have better AI than enemies (if you use the wingman AI for your wingmen)--they will turn harder, fire faster, and behave more intelligently.
Most of these errors are not caused by lack of raw player skill, they are caused by improper judgment and poor choices.
Put bluntly, scary capships break the game. FS is about the power and the dominance of the fighter. It always has been.Put bluntly, I highly ****ing doubt FreeSpace is all about the dominance of the Fighter, otherwise you wouldn't have the ability to cooridnate wings. :doubt:
Put bluntly, I highly ****ing doubt FreeSpace is all about the dominance of the Fighter, otherwise you wouldn't have the ability to cooridnate wings. :doubt:
What this means is that it's about dominance by cooridnation. Remove all the other fighters or bombers that you had command of, tell anyone that it's still about "dominance of 'The Fighter'" then.
That's merely a moment of misfortune for the pilot, it has no effect on my arguement. Now if FreeSpace wasn't so easy that the player COULD single-handedly pass nearly every mission without any other support at the start, then there would be reason to worry about losing all your other fighters and bombers without having any other available support.Put bluntly, I highly ****ing doubt FreeSpace is all about the dominance of the Fighter, otherwise you wouldn't have the ability to cooridnate wings. :doubt:
What this means is that it's about dominance by cooridnation. Remove all the other fighters or bombers that you had command of, tell anyone that it's still about "dominance of 'The Fighter'" then.
The existence of the message "There are no reinforcements available pilot, you're on your own." as an engine default invalidates your argument.
Also remember that on difficulties below Hard, your wingmen with Fury's AI have better AI than enemiesThat would be on difficulties below Medium, not Hard. Based on feedback that had been posted in the modding board, there doesn't seem to have need for penalties on medium. On the other hand there has not been many people testing easy and very easy, so penalties on those difficulties might be too low.
So basically you're saying it has no effect on your argument and every effect on your argument at the same time. Gotcha.I don't know where the hell the sudden bust-in of the no reinforcements by Command remark comes from in the first place, or even the fact it's an engine default, I see no point in bringing it up, it's like you just blurted it out to say something. :rolleyes:
(Also what is with people screwing up quotes in this thread?)
I have this nagging feeling NGTM-1R won't like next stage of WiH beta much. :doubt: But fredders could take it as a challenge, make him change his mind through first-hand experience.Maybe, since he wouldn't be able to single-handedly face any capital ship and win without quarrel. :doubt:QuoteAlso remember that on difficulties below Hard, your wingmen with Fury's AI have better AI than enemiesThat would be on difficulties below Medium, not Hard. Based on feedback that had been posted in the modding board, there doesn't seem to have need for penalties on medium. On the other hand there has not been many people testing easy and very easy, so penalties on those difficulties might be too low.
The only difference between friendly and hostile AI on those two lower difficulties are hostile penalties to turn and weapon fire rate. These two should be enough to give friendlies an edge when it is needed. On medium and above, both are on equal terms.
Already prioritizes bombs? Huh, I need to start playing above Easy then. :D
Hmmm, do slash beams all insta-kill the player? I can imagine that would break game balance (but also can't really imagine why they don't use them for anti-fighter use anyway). Well, is there a way to have them go for subsystems instead of just scything wildly (assuming, of course, they do that. I might just be missing it)?
Give fighters, bombers more speed, manoeuvrability and high kick from thrusters. Give cap ships longer range defence where varied type of weapons had more varied (not just 500m difference) range.BP won't alter retail ships much and in turn new ships in the mod are equally balanced in their stats.
Also give AI ability to use them effectively that it won't charge cruiser from one direction (just like wings of bombers do).While AI has been upgraded, it still won't do miracles. Not until someone completely overhauls AI code.
I don't know where the hell the sudden bust-in of the no reinforcements by Command remark comes from in the first place, or even the fact it's an engine default, I see no point in bringing it up, it's like you just blurted it out to say something. :rolleyes:
I have this nagging feeling NGTM-1R won't like next stage of WiH beta much. :doubt: But fredders could take it as a challenge, make him change his mind through first-hand experience.
Also give AI ability to use them effectively that it won't charge cruiser from one direction (just like wings of bombers do).
For those who have complained about gameplay differences in WiH in comparison to FS1/FS2, I'd like to make an analogy to old BSG vs. new BSG.
Which is the result of being such a piss-poor squad leader that you can't use Wingmen right, then you deserve being in the situation where you're alone and if capital ships could actually fend themselves against small craft with some effeciency like they should, the pilot deserves his imminent death. But no, the game's not designed to be done solo every single time. I don't know if you can decipher that but I for one would actually like to use the features that came with FreeSpace, that is, using my Wingmen to help accomplish the mission, not rush in alone and save the day a-la Superman.I don't know where the hell the sudden bust-in of the no reinforcements by Command remark comes from in the first place, or even the fact it's an engine default, I see no point in bringing it up, it's like you just blurted it out to say something. :rolleyes:
The point is the game is literally designed to take into account your playing it solo. I'm sorry if that's lost on you, but it's not my fault you didn't see the obvious conclusion.
Which is the result of being such a piss-poor squad leader that you can't use Wingmen right, then you deserve being in the situation where you're alone and if capital ships could actually fend themselves against small craft with some effeciency like they should, the pilot deserves his imminent death. But no, the game's not designed to be done solo every single time. I don't know if you can decipher that but I for one would actually like to use the features that came with FreeSpace, that is, using my Wingmen to help accomplish the mission, not rush in alone and save the day a-la Superman.
It would also be nice if capital ships were not stationary, perhaps circling each other. Take cues from World War 2 and were good.
For those who have complained about gameplay differences in WiH in comparison to FS1/FS2, I'd like to make an analogy to old BSG vs. new BSG. It's essentially same thing, modernized. Fs2_open or mediavps do not have a chance to change gameplay, but mods do. We're taking that opportunity to explore our vast options. If it's fun, it will probably find its way to WiH. If its not fun, it's not used. Same goes to capital ship AI classes, should to prove to be detrimental to gameplay, they won't be used. But if the opposite is true, it will be used in moderation in key places to keep the game enjoyable regardless of whether said capital ship(s) is in your side or not.
This. The mods allow you to try different things. Have some faith in the designers, they surely know what is fun and what is not. Using the "But original FS didn't work like that" argument is ridiculous, because it only leads to stagnation.
It's a mod, not a TC. I explained this once already. You have to preserve the experience or you're just jamming square pegs into round holes. The argument that "FS doesn't work like that" is not only valid, but vital if one is building something that purports to be FS.
I, for one, think that mods should actively try to distance themselves from the "Alpha 1 is superman, let's not bother with wingmen or bombers or anything like that." It's the way FS1 and 2 played. Okay, good for them, that isn't necessarily the best way to do things. Personally, when something like that happens, it breaks the suspension of disbelief into teeny tiny pieces. If a fighter can single-handedly destroy cruiser sized warships, why would there be cruisers anymore? Answer: because single fighters shouldn't be able to destroy cruisers.
Although, giving cruisers, corvettes and the like a sort of damage resistance agaisnt fighter weapons would go a long way to mitigating that.
The point is, capships should be scary to fighters, or something is wrong with said capships (or the way they're used).
The fun thing about mods is that it can make the original aspects of the game itself more fun as well.It's a mod, not a TC. I explained this once already. You have to preserve the experience or you're just jamming square pegs into round holes. The argument that "FS doesn't work like that" is not only valid, but vital if one is building something that purports to be FS.
Obviously I don't mean that we should go all crazy and include Gudams in an FS2 mod just because it's cool. But you seem to be against any kind of a change from the FS. A Mentu should have beam cannons ? No can do, it didn't have any in vanilla FS2. An Orion should be a little more capable in terms of anti-fighter weaponry ? Nope, it should remain defenceless just like in FS2. Let's try to see if we can do some teamwork in a mod ? Don't you dare, it's Alpha 1 who has to save the day.
Nothing personal, mate. In principal, your idea is nice. We should preserve the FS spirit in mods. But some of your comments sound as if you are some kind of a religious zealot, for whom any change to the game concept will ruin the spirit of FS (this reminds me of the Fallout 3 message boards BTW. It was nice to see the outrage of veterans whenever any new info would be published). Maybe it's just the way you write things that make me feel that way, dunno.
Oh, and it's a mod. A modification, not merely a custom campaign. Thus changes are more than welcome.
Obviously I don't mean that we should go all crazy and include Gudams in an FS2 mod just because it's cool. But you seem to be against any kind of a change from the FS. A Mentu should have beam cannons ? No can do, it didn't have any in vanilla FS2. An Orion should be a little more capable in terms of anti-fighter weaponry ? Nope, it should remain defenceless just like in FS2. Let's try to see if we can do some teamwork in a mod ? Don't you dare, it's Alpha 1 who has to save the day.
Nothing personal, mate. In principal, your idea is nice. We should preserve the FS spirit in mods. But some of your comments sound as if you are some kind of a religious zealot, for whom any change to the game concept will ruin the spirit of FS (this reminds me of the Fallout 3 message boards BTW. It was nice to see the outrage of veterans whenever any new info would be published). Maybe it's just the way you write things that make me feel that way, dunno.
Oh, and it's a mod. A modification, not merely a custom campaign. Thus changes are more than welcome.
I, for one, think that mods should actively try to distance themselves from the "Alpha 1 is superman, let's not bother with wingmen or bombers or anything like that." It's the way FS1 and 2 played. Okay, good for them, that isn't necessarily the best way to do things. Personally, when something like that happens, it breaks the suspension of disbelief into teeny tiny pieces. If a fighter can single-handedly destroy cruiser sized warships, why would there be cruisers anymore?
If you want to straight-up bull**** about what I've said, does that mean I can do so about what you've said?
I don't mind needing a couple wings to reliably take down a crusier. (Of course, that's pretty much what you need in vanilla anyways, at least if you're under any real time constraints.) I draw the line however at having to deploy a full squadron against a light warship, because that will significantly change the way the game's played. Any battle of significant size ends up becoming a BoE rapidly, and if you want to know what a campaign of BoEs gets the community thinking I suggest you check out what people had to say about 158th. (It stank.)
If you need to deploy a squadron to successfully assault a light warship, then you have to assume he's got escorts to beat off a squadron, and so you need more ships, and at this point we're talking thirty-fighter strikes to kill cruisers and it can rapidly get worse if there's more than one around. When you have thirty friendly fighters on the field, Alpha 1's actions are going to carry very little weight typically. And if there's no point in the player being there, you're already having a serious uphill struggle for a point in anyone playing the mission. If the player consistantly isn't mattering in your missions, your campaign and your mod are more or less a piece of **** by default.
This is not to say that you cannot build a mission where Alpha 1's actions will matter greatly when there are thirty friendly fighters on the field, but how many of those have there been in the community? Four or five? It's not for the faint of heart, and they're generally campaign centerpieces. Building a whole campaign of them is impractical.
So by all means, build your thing with Gundams in FS. I'll chuckle a little but what the hell. It'll probably play okay. Your superduper warships, however, won't.
To be fair, on Insane - even with the retail AI - Slaying Ravana is a bit of a nightmare.
I'd assume because of the escorts.
I'd assume because of the escorts.
No, it's because of the Ravana! The escorts don't help, but the Ravana just eats you alive if you're not really careful.
Remember, on Insane, you don't get that 40% damage reduction that you get on medium. And the Ravana's not limited to firing five turrets at a time.
I, for one, think that mods should actively try to distance themselves from the "Alpha 1 is superman, let's not bother with wingmen or bombers or anything like that." It's the way FS1 and 2 played. Okay, good for them, that isn't necessarily the best way to do things. Personally, when something like that happens, it breaks the suspension of disbelief into teeny tiny pieces. If a fighter can single-handedly destroy cruiser sized warships, why would there be cruisers anymore? Answer: because single fighters shouldn't be able to destroy cruisers.
Give it a shot. You'll probably die a few times before you get it right.Going straight to Weapons subsystem?
My main concern are destroyers. Whether we're talking about an Orion, a Ravana or Hatshepsut, they are next to defenceless against fighters and bombers. The majority of times I was killed by a destroyer was because I accidentally ran into its main beam and got insta-killed. In essence, a wing of bombers is capable of destroying a ship the size of a small city and kill over 10,000 people. It shouldn't be that easy. I always get irritated when playing "Slaying Ravana" - 4 bombers shouldn't be capable of doing such damage to a destroyer, even in a nebula environment. For taking out destroyers you should need at least 2-3 squadrons, not a single wing plus optional escorts. That's why I suggested giving the new AI only to destroyers.
Give it a shot. You'll probably die a few times before you get it right.Going straight to Weapons subsystem?
Can't you just sit underneath the Sobek and watch it beam it Ravana to death?
Hey, I was on the VBB!When we were all at least 10 years younger :lol:
And yeah, you can use TrackIR with any FSOpen campaign, not just War in Heaven. Could even fake it with a Wiimote, I think.
To be fair, on Insane - even with the retail AI - Slaying Ravana is a bit of a nightmare.
May I suggest an idea?
How about elite ships?
*snip*
Completely unrealistic, but imagine an Aeolus with the handling of an interceptor. Stuff of nightmares.
I did say completely unrealisticCompletely unrealistic, but imagine an Aeolus with the handling of an interceptor. Stuff of nightmares.
that would be really weird , springing flak all over the place :O
We are talking about a game were lasers are blobs flying slower than even sound, ships travel through a parallel dimension, fighters in a vaccum handle like they fly in atmosphere, nebulae that are thiker than most planetary atmospheres, ships with engines as big as whole buildings fly with a constant 30 km/h ect.... and you say a very manouverable Aeolus is unrealistic (in answer to a joke....)?
[Realism... the one thing that FS has never had and will always lack.
Who in God's name would want to ruin a fantastic game like FreeSpace by adding something as terrible as "realism"? :pWe are talking about a game were lasers are blobs flying slower than even sound, ships travel through a parallel dimension, fighters in a vaccum handle like they fly in atmosphere, nebulae that are thiker than most planetary atmospheres, ships with engines as big as whole buildings fly with a constant 30 km/h ect.... and you say a very manouverable Aeolus is unrealistic (in answer to a joke....)?
Realism... the one thing that FS has never had and will always lack.
Realism... the one thing that FS has never had and will always lack.Who in God's name would want to ruin a fantastic game like FreeSpace by adding something as terrible as "realism"? :p
Hey, if you want to hop in your trusty time machine and go back in time to get :v: to do that, be our guest. :p