Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Guthan on December 12, 2009, 11:20:39 am
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You got to admit, when we all played Freespace 2, I was expecting to see the Lucifer again. Sadly, we saw something even nastier.
Still; you got to admit what was the Lucifer's purpose? I think it was an armored science ship, since the Shivans were so interested in subspace nodes - they were probably got lost in another universe and wanting to head back. So every subspace node directed them in the hopes that that particular node would be the one to lead them back to home.
That all changed of course, when most likely when the Lucifer encountered the GTVA - it eventually found the subspace nodes needed to head back to home; thus bringing the Shivan 80+ juggernauts (probably scattered everywhere in the universe; to congregate and head home)
The lucifer than decided to quash any remaining resistance as (Shivans probably saw it as an affront for any lesser species to be using subspace.
State your opinions.
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If it ain't broke, don't fix it
In this case, it was broken, and the Shivans fixed it. The Lucifer had a flaw, which the Terrans and Vasudans exploited, to the Lucifer's demise. In response, perhaps the Shivans created a successor, the Juggernaught, or perhaps they just decided to send in the big guns, who knows. For sure though, the Lucifer had a problem, and it wouldn't have made sense to keep using it despite it.
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The Lucy is exceptionally good at one thing: Destroying Planets. It is also a very good PsyWar weapon, with those near-impenetrable shields. In FS2, it would have been less effective because its flaws were known to the GTVA, so the Shivans used an even bigger stick to show the GTVA who is really the boss around here.
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Also, count to how many plantes they had access in FS2.
Capella was the only colonized Terran system which they had reached, there's no point in bringing in planetkiller if there are no planets to kill.
Of course, they could have reached more if they had the Lucifer, but they also could have done it with their Sathanas fleet, which suggests that they never intended to go any farther.
This time, they wanted to blow up a star and I think that they would have done it regardless of GTVA resistance, maybe even presence.
In FS1, their goal was clear, to destroy Terrans and Vasudans. In FS2 though, we didn't really knew what they were up to. I bet that if GTVA had left the nebula and shut down the Knossos, nothing would have happened. They should have done it by the time the first Sathanas was destroyed (they had Meson Bombs by that time and knew how to shut down the node). The last moment to do it was when the second Sath appeared. If they had collapsed a node to nebula (or to Gamma Draconis, as it was useless anyway) they could have avoided what happened in Capella. And they had resources to do it.
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Still, if we just go by in-game performance, the Lucifer is the best thing the Shivans ever had... the Shivan Super Lasers outrange the later beam cannons by a comfortable margin, and the shields were rather effective.
Even if the shields were ineffective againt beam weapons... the Lucy would still outrange anything in the GTVA and shrugging off fusion mortars, flak and blob turrets is no mean advantage either.
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Terrans and Vasudans defeated the Lucifer in subspace... is there any convincing reason why they never attempted to take on Shivan ships there later? With shields taken out of the picture, Shivan fighters are amusingly weak but still their only hope because capital ships can't fight back at Maxim range.
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FS2 Lucifer has SReds, not SSLs.
So if you just go by in-game performance at FS2-era, it sucks. It's a fat lump of armor.
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Terrans and Vasudans defeated the Lucifer in subspace... is there any convincing reason why they never attempted to take on Shivan ships there later? With shields taken out of the picture, Shivan fighters are amusingly weak but still their only hope because capital ships can't fight back at Maxim range.
Because, judging by the final mission of FS1, getting into the same subspace corridor as the shivan ship is non-trivial.
Because the Lucy is the only capital ship that has shields that need to be circumvented like that.
Since the Lucy was following a very predictable flightpath through terran-controlled space, it was easy to set up an intercept, in FS2, the GTVA never had that luxury.
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In FS2, GTVA never needed to do something like that.
They had their own shields and cannons capable of destoying shields, one even dedicated to do it. Any competent pilot should be able to fight Shivan fighters.
And fighting in Subspace is annoying. It strips enemy of shields, but you too, so it's more difficult. Granted, Shivans had weak hulls and GTVA had Maxims, but destroying a few fighters was not worth of fatigue.
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Why Only One Lucifer?
Because after the first encounter with the GTA and PVN, Shivan command figured out that 2 would be overkill. Pretty much like you go bird hunting with bird shot and not with .50 cal BMG's.
And after the first encounter with the GTVA in FS 2 (which was a complete and embarrasing defeat) they decided to bring in a larger boomstick, pretty much like you shoot people with a .50 cal BMG and not with birdshot.
P. S. Speaking of Maxims- an Erynies with 8 of those is capable of killing any canon FS 2 Shivan fighter before it gets in range of missiles.
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Still, in subspace it gets a lot more ridiculous. A few wings of Maxim-armed fighters could probably take out the whole Juggernaut fleet and their supporting craft (single shot kills against Dragons when fired from a quad mount... with a firing rate of 6.67 per second).
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Oh, that statement is sooo wrong.
For one, Maxims can't hurt Sathanases, not in a "Sath go boom" way, anyway. Even if they could, it would take longer than the average subspace jump duration.
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Terrans and Vasudans defeated the Lucifer in subspace... is there any convincing reason why they never attempted to take on Shivan ships there later? With shields taken out of the picture, Shivan fighters are amusingly weak but still their only hope because capital ships can't fight back at Maxim range.
I seriously doubt that fighting in subspace is something you can do at your leisure.
And you also forget that Terran ships would be without shields as well (unless this is SGWP2). Even if your statement were true, taking out a Sathanas involves more than shooting it with Maxims.
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Oh, that statement is sooo wrong.
For one, Maxims can't hurt Sathanases, not in a "Sath go boom" way, anyway. Even if they could, it would take longer than the average subspace jump duration.
Maybe not destroy them per se... but perhaps defang them ? Trebuchets + Maxims should do quite some damage to those BFReds from a comfortable distance. The only problem is getting into position. That would mean either flying near a Sathanas in an unshielded craft (no fun) or entering the node from the other side (is that even possible ?).
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Look, let's just settle on the fact that fighting in Subspace is no simple matter and can have disastrous consequences.
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So what if GTVA craft lost their shields?
a) Shields are much more important to Shivans. Shield/Hull balance: 800/100 for Dragons, 500/325 for Erinyes, 400/250 for Lokis, 220/200 for Serapis. Interestingly, we missed the chance to see Osiris bombers as invincible gunships in the last FS1 missions with their insanely tough hulls (600) and 2 Prometheus turrets (good hull damage).
b) They wouldn't even matter because Shivans lack long-range primaries. Maxims vs unshielded fighters means weapons other than the Trebuchet (which is absurdly easy to defeat) might as well not exist for the Shivans.
Mind you, we're talking about a setting where Leviathan cruisers roar through space at an incredible 36 km/h, where Avengers work like energy weapons etc etc.
Pretty much anything should be wankable; it's not as if the tactics and ship specifications make an awful lot of sense looking from how everything works.
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Trying to take out Sathanas Juggernaughts in subspace corridors is just asking to destroy every jump node in Terran-Vasudan space...
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Yeah, I'm not really sure how it would convey any advantage to the actual task of destroying the juggernaut.
Probably quite the reverse. In subspace, you have no shields. In subspace, flak eats you for breakfast.
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Plus the fact that there's no reason to do so when you can kill them just fine in normal space.
Recall that there was a strategy that would allow three GTVA destroyers to effectively engage the Sathanas.
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The Lucifer fleet might have been a remnant of the armada that destroyed the Ancients, a custodian left behind to watch the development after, with no access to reinforcements. The actual Shivan Empire might not even have become aware of the Lucifer incident. By the time of FS2, the Lucifer model may be completely obsolete, or inadequate for combat (5 reactors to power the shields, two forward main cannons and by comparison weak secondary armament) and out of production and service since thousands of years, which may explain why they didn't send any in FS2.
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Finally, an excuse! I've been thinking up a new Shivan theory, and this thread fits just right.
Why was there only one Lucifer? Because the Lucifer isn't a command ship or a warship or anything like that.
It's a flying bomb.
Yeah, odd thought, but here's the idea: The Lucifer, to our knowledge, only attacked the surface of ONE planet, Vasuda Prime, and we've always assumed, rather reasonably, that it was going to do the same to Earth. But what if that wasn't the goal, and more importantly, what if it wasn't the Shivans that did decide on the goal?
The Ancients were aggressive and genocidal, killing all that got in their way. The Shivans came in and wiped them out and then vanished. The Vasudans and Terrans appeared in the wake of the Ancients destruction, two races that had the Ancients continued, would have been destroyed pretty early on most likely.
The Great War saw the Lucifer comes in, destroys fleets and installations, but doesn't seem concenered with planets at all, until Vasuda Prime. Why would it go after Vasuda Prime? Because it was the Vasudan homeworld, but how could it have known that? Vasuda Prime is frequently described as mostly desert and with few resources. Aside from people, the planet really didn't seem to have much to offer the Vasudans. The Lucifer flattened it, while skipping perhaps half a dozen systems which, while probably not as populated as Vasuda Prime, certianly would have been of a higher strategic value. Why go after the homeworld? We'll get back to that in a moment.
Flash to the Bastion going to Altair. It appears the Lucifer was CHASING the Bastion, and was there when the transports headed off to recover the data but not AFTER the data was retrieved. Now the opposite chase is on as the Lucifer stays a step ahead of the Bastion to get to Earth. Wait, why? Why not just destroy the Bastion? The Lucifer is basically invincible to all GTA and PVN weaponry, so why not just slay the Bastion, and any other ship that could launch the attack on the Lucifer in subspace? It's not like Earth is going anywhere. And why did the Lucifer go ALONE? Sol is probably heavily populated, so why did it just throw a Demon at you as it was leaving when the Demon could have run point and cleared a path for the Lucifer?
Hell, more importantly, HOW did the Lucifer know to make a run on Earth? Or follow the Bastion?
The Shivans are a symptom of a "larger problem." They seem to exact "devine punishment." So, what if the Shivans are the tools of that "larger problem." The weapon of a self described "god." One that might just be able to see such things and direct the Shivans thusly. Maybe this explains how the Lucifer seemed to know to be in certian places, but it doesn't explain why it charged to Earth, if this "god" really wanted to destroy Earth, it should have easily been possible as long as the Lucifer went in under heavy escort.
What if destroying Earth was NEVER the goal of the Lucifer? Let us look at the final cutscene again (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5sdlDK0TOw). Now, when did you destroy the last reactor? How many MINUTES before the Lucifer reaches the other side of the node were left when you destroyed the last reactor? Timing is everything here, because the Lucifer explodes JUST as it's coming out of the node, with enough force to destroy it.
That seems rather curious, doesn't it? If you take just enough time to do it, then yeah, that makes sense, but if you took LESS time? Then the Lucifer held itself together until it got to the node. I'm thinking it did it on purpose. The Lucifer is a bomb, and it's target was the node. The reactors may not have done a damn thing to the Lucifer.
Which brings us back to Vasuda Prime. Why destroy that? Well, look at what the Vasudans did after they lost their homeworld. They dissolved a corrupt government and restarted their economy. What of Sol? No idea, but all the people there are still alive, and the GTA outside of the Sol were forced to live without it and had done pretty damn well considering. And the Shivans just simply collapsed after the Lucifer was destroyed and were gone before the year was out. The Lucifer being the command ship might explain it, but I thinking that mission of the Shivans was complete, and the extras were simply abandoned.
This might explain many of the Shivan's actions in FS2. They were directed to not go beyond Capella after the Sathanas was destroyed, and instead were to send a message to the GTVA by blowing up a star. And it may also explain their reaction to ETAK, it might have been their command signal and it made the Shivans curious in a way they hadn't been before, perhaps it even overrode their normal imparatives for a time, which might explain why they promptly slaughtered the Icini's crew after Bosch left.
The Lucifer was a bomb, a giant suicide weapon. It was all part of a grand plan by our "larger problem," one that may have been also testing the Terrans and Vasudans to prove their worth in some way. And then it cut off Sol from the rest of them to pervent the infighting that led to the 14 Year War in the first place.
My thoughts anyway.
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<Wall of text>
I have a better excuse.
The writers wanted it so.
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Finally, an excuse! I've been thinking up a new Shivan theory, and this thread fits just right.
Why was there only one Lucifer? Because the Lucifer isn't a command ship or a warship or anything like that.
It's a flying bomb.
<wall of text>
The Lucifer was a bomb, a giant suicide weapon. It was all part of a grand plan by our "larger problem," one that may have been also testing the Terrans and Vasudans to prove their worth in some way. And then it cut off Sol from the rest of them to pervent the infighting that led to the 14 Year War in the first place.
My thoughts anyway.
I am Eisthmo, and i approve this message, Vote for me! lol
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Also, count to how many plantes they had access in FS2.
Capella was the only colonized Terran system which they had reached, there's no point in bringing in planetkiller if there are no planets to kill.
i think a sath could do the job of planet killer. But, why kill a planet directly when you can blow up the star?
This time, they wanted to blow up a star and I think that they would have done it regardless of GTVA resistance, maybe even presence.
I say no. They probably wouldn't have blown up the star if capella was uninhabited. The shivans were up to many things in capella, and i think a show of power was one of them. It was a moment for terrans and vasudans to know that it's more than just their planets they need to protect.
I bet that if GTVA had left the nebula and shut down the Knossos, nothing would have happened. They should have done it by the time the first Sathanas was destroyed (they had Meson Bombs by that time and knew how to shut down the node). The last moment to do it was when the second Sath appeared. If they had collapsed a node to nebula (or to Gamma Draconis, as it was useless anyway) they could have avoided what happened in Capella. And they had resources to do it.
Here's the thing. The gtva did leave the nebula and shutdown the knossos. You're remembering things out of order. Upon the sighting of the first sathanas, the gtva did pull out all of its forces from the nebula. The meson bomb permanently shutdown the knossos, but the knossos was active long enough to stabilize that jump node for god knows how long even without the knossos. That's how the first sathanas entered gtva space; by using the node that the knossos had stabilized after the knossos was destroyed.
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snip
Dragon meant, that GTVA should've collapsed the node immediately after hearing of the next jugs. I'd close it after killing first Sath anyway.
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Exactly.
I don't know for what they were looking for in that nebula anyway, they found another Knossos and a lot of Shivans on the other side, so they should acknownledge that they are not welcome in this system, pack and leave. By the time of SOC mission it might have been too late for closing the node to nebula, but they could have cut Gamma Draconis, as it was useless. The only gain they had from the nebula was a possiblity of producing Prom S, but with NTF insurgency over they would not need it.
GTVA apperantely failed to understand that, as written by Stanislaw Lem in "Solaris" (or was it "Invincible"? Both have the same conclusion, Lem apperantely liked this theme.):
Not everything in the universe is for humans.
If GTVA had accepted this and abandoned the nebula when it wasn't too late, they could have saved Capella.
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snip
Dragon meant, that GTVA should've collapsed the node immediately after hearing of the next jugs. I'd close it after killing first Sath anyway.
They tried to collapse the Knossos when the first Sath appeared.
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Exactly.
I don't know for what they were looking for in that nebula anyway, they found another Knossos and a lot of Shivans on the other side, so they should acknownledge that they are not welcome in this system, pack and leave. By the time of SOC mission it might have been too late for closing the node to nebula, but they could have cut Gamma Draconis, as it was useless. The only gain they had from the nebula was a possiblity of producing Prom S, but with NTF insurgency over they would not need it.
Well, there were a few things.
1. the most important of all, the first Knossos. Petrarch says in the command briefing of the Battle of the Wilderness:
Allied scientists studying the portal remain optimistic about the potential for this technology. In five to ten years, we might be able to restore contact with Earth or create new jump nodes to unexplored regions of the galaxy. For this reason, the portal must remain open for as long as possible.
Command has issued a standing order to destroy the device should a full-scale invasion be imminent.
It was imperative to gather as much available information as possible about the gate, that's why they have kept it active until the last possible moment. Obviously, this point becomes moot after the destruction of the Knossos, however here comes the second argument...
2. In the same briefing, we can read:
The Shivan fleet appears to be smaller than the armada we defeated three decades ago, and our improved technology gives us a tactical advantage.
The GTVA believed that they could handle the threat. They actually did quite well, if you don't count the first Ravana, and managed to succeed in most engagements against the Shivans. They even managed to develop a strategy against an enemy Sathanas and defeat it. I wouldn't be surprised if the GTVA considered the Sathanas to be kind of a new Lucifer - they never expected that the Shivans could have an entire armada of them.
3. Aken Bosch. While the NTF Rebellion was basically over after Bosch's escape, somebody had to be punished for all the war crimes. In order to improve morale across the GTVA space and help stabilise the relationship with the Vasudans, they needed to capture him and his lieutenants and put them on trail.
Nevertheless, I still don't know why they haven't closed of Gamma Draconis the moment multiple juggernauts were discovered. The only explanation that comes to my mind is that the meson-armed Orions weren't ready until Shivans had already reached Capella.
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One reason you wouldnt want to take on a Shivan Destroyer in subspace.. Something blowing up in a corridor may destabilize said corridor. Is attacking a few Demons en-route to an inhabited system, with a zero-chance of backup Capship wise (If they jump it, its from the beginning or end of the corridor. a big distance to transverse whereas in realspace, a cruiser can jump in right on top of a battle and help out) Your looking at more bomber casualties, as the Shields will not be there to stop the shockwave from washing over the bomber and knocking out subsystems as their prone to... Yeah, not the best..
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The Lucifer, to our knowledge, only attacked the surface of ONE planet, Vasuda Prime, and we've always assumed, rather reasonably, that it was going to do the same to Earth.
The FS1 Tech Description makes you its *****. Which is a shame, because it's a pretty good run. :/
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It was imperative to gather as much available information as possible about the gate, that's why they have kept it active until the last possible moment. Obviously, this point becomes moot after the destruction of the Knossos, however here comes the second argument...
Don't forget that the Collosus was nearly destroyed by Sathanas.
After they had destroyed the Knossos, they should have continued and close the jump node created by it.
Or at least be prepared to do it and close it immidiately after SOC team returned to Gamma Draconis.
A Meson Bomb filled Orion should be on guard of this node all the time.
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They didn't know about a second Sathanas until much later. No context for the Shivans having that, much less what they did.
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They could have done this just in case.
GTA defeated Lucifer and the next thing Shivans send was ten times bigger.
So, after they defeated the Sathanas, they should have predicted that Shivans won't give up and may send something more powerfull.
Of course, they couldn't be sure, but better safe than sorry.
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They could have done this just in case.
Just in case is the key to never accomplishing anything. The Sathanas was, by most appearances, analogous to the Lucifer's posistion in the Shivan fleet hierarchy. They only got the Orions ready when they discovered the second one.
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BTW, Killing those Sathanas is a thing, but they could have disabled / disarmed em one by one as they were coming (just look at "In the Lion's den, they take some time to come). Why didn't they do this ?
Plus there is something that doesn't fit with what Eishtmo said.
I mean, the ship had to explode in the Subspace corridor to close it, right ?
It's what they did for the Bastion, afaik
Then why did they wait for arriving to the end of the subspace corridor to detonate it ?
I believe the explosion at the end of the corridor don't mean a thing.
I guess the Video was just like uh.... "LOOKS, IT EXPLODES ! A FUNNY WAY !"
Moreover, if it exploded during the Subspace travel, since the nodes collapsed, what would have happened to other vessels ?
This would mean you're dead, or somewhere in some unexplored space ? That wouldn't fit with the story !!
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BTW, Killing those Sathanas is a thing, but they could have disabled / disarmed em one by one as they were coming (just look at "In the Lion's den, they take some time to come). Why didn't they do this ?
:rolleyes:
The Sathanas has six engine subsystems, 5 beam cannons, scores of point-defense weapons and hundreds of fighters in its fighterbay is why.
They didn't disable them for the exact same reason the Sathanas was a threat. You may as well say "Why didn't they just destroy all the Saths? That would've been so easy!"
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I see... I though it didn't has that many Engines subsys.
BTW, regarding the strength of the Beam Cannons compared to other things on the Sathanas,
They should rather have deployed 20 Alpha 1 than the Colossus, i'm sure it could have disarmed it and everything !
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I see... I though it didn't has that many Engines subsys.
BTW, regarding the strength of the Beam Cannons compared to other things on the Sathanas,
They should rather have deployed 20 Alpha 1 than the Colossus, i'm sure it could have disarmed it and everything !
1 engine 5 reactors
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1 engine 5 reactors
The Sathanas has six engine subsystems, 5 beam cannons, scores of point-defense weapons and hundreds of fighters in its fighterbay is why.
How many then ?
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hmmm seem to have quoted wrong thing i ment to say the lucifer was 1 engine 5 reactors
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The Lucifer has two engines and five reactors.
The Sathanas has six engines but no exploitable reactors.
I see... I though it didn't has that many Engines subsys.
BTW, regarding the strength of the Beam Cannons compared to other things on the Sathanas,
They should rather have deployed 20 Alpha 1 than the Colossus, i'm sure it could have disarmed it and everything !
:rolleyes:
Yeah, sure. 20 Alpha 1s.
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One Lucifer, eh? Hey, I'd have made that very same mistake. Why send more than one ship that's completely impervious to any weapons the enemy has? :p
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All these stupid Alpha 1 jokes. People don't play on Insane enough.
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I do and get slaughtered in 10.95 seconds after the shooting begins
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The FS1 Tech Description makes you its *****. Which is a shame, because it's a pretty good run. :/
Clarify, because I'm not seeing what you're talking about.
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I've always been under the impression that destroying the ship in subspace isn't a problem, but destroying it as it leaves or enters subspace is what causes the collapse. I remember the ending cutscene of the Lucy blowing up as she exits subspace, but it's been so long since i played the fs2 campaign that I may be wrong about WHEN the Bastion detonated. Was it in subspace, or leaving subspace?
I think that the lucy was a newer model than the Sathanas, and was purpose built to avoid having to destroy an entire star system. Maybe she was a prototype and when we destroyed her, the Shivans went back to doing things the old way.
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I've always been under the impression that destroying the ship in subspace isn't a problem, but destroying it as it leaves or enters subspace is what causes the collapse. I remember the ending cutscene of the Lucy blowing up as she exits subspace, but it's been so long since i played the fs2 campaign that I may be wrong about WHEN the Bastion detonated. Was it in subspace, or leaving subspace?
I think that the lucy was a newer model than the Sathanas, and was purpose built to avoid having to destroy an entire star system. Maybe she was a prototype and when we destroyed her, the Shivans went back to doing things the old way.
You might be correct, the Bastion was just entering the subspace vortex when it exploded.
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And if you want to send in 20 Alpha 1's, why not make it realistic and have the Sathanas' (+100 of them, mind you) dump ALL THEIR FIGHTERS into the field. In a nutshell, Alpha 1 or not, in a war of atrittion, the shivans have us beat six ways to sunday.
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The Lucifer explodes halfway through the portal, as does the bastion in FS2. Both times closed the node. So id say thats the kicker.
Besides 3 Meson bombs on their own didnt affect the node (granted they were being used to demolish the knossoss, but apart from doing that, they didnt affect the node
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They weren't detonated in the corridor though, just close to it.
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I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that detonating smack-dab in the middle of a subspace corridor is any different than detonating going into or out of either end. In fact, I seem to remember the little wireframe render of the Nereid in the final FS2 command briefing being shown detonating in the middle itself. The key seems to be being in the corridor to some degree. The Lucifer only exploding as it was in the process of entering Sol was presumably more for dramatic cinematic effect than anything else, as were the Bastion's final moments.
The Lucifer fleet might have been a remnant of the armada that destroyed the Ancients, a custodian left behind to watch the development after, with no access to reinforcements. The actual Shivan Empire might not even have become aware of the Lucifer incident. By the time of FS2, the Lucifer model may be completely obsolete, or inadequate for combat (5 reactors to power the shields, two forward main cannons and by comparison weak secondary armament) and out of production and service since thousands of years, which may explain why they didn't send any in FS2.
This is the statement I agree with the most in here, I think. There's no evidence to suggest that the Lucifer fleet and the Shivans we fought in FS2 ever had any contact with one another; in fact, I think there's a stronger picture painted of them being two completely separate entities, considering the inherent technological differences. I've always taken the FS1 Shivan fleet to be the remnants (or more likely, the vast majority) of the fleet that destroyed the Ancients in the GTVA's part of space. The Ancients presumably shut down their Knossos network in a last-ditch attempt to stem the Shivan invasion, but as we saw in FS2, that's not immediately effective. So the Lucifer fleet waltzes in through the Gamma Draconis Knossos, mops up the Ancients, and then turns around...only to find that their way back has been cut off by the deactivated Knossos. They then essentially sit around in some sort of hibernation state for a good 8,000 years, only to wake up when they detect a massive amount of subspace activity generated by Terran/Vasudan expansion and the 14-Year-War. Cue the events of FS1. By the time the Shivans enter through the Knossos in FS2, there's no trace of the FS1 fleet left, so the FS2 Shivans presumably didn't even know of the Lucifer's existence in the first place.
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Clarify, because I'm not seeing what you're talking about.
These same cannons have been seen bombarding colonized worlds.
This appears before the attack on Vasuda Prime, and is plural.
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So the Lucifer fleet waltzes in through the Gamma Draconis Knossos, mops up the Ancients, and then turns around...only to find that their way back has been cut off by the deactivated Knossos. They then essentially sit around in some sort of hibernation state for a good 8,000 years, only to wake up when they detect a massive amount of subspace activity generated by Terran/Vasudan expansion and the 14-Year-War. Cue the events of FS1. By the time the Shivans enter through the Knossos in FS2, there's no trace of the FS1 fleet left, so the FS2 Shivans presumably didn't even know of the Lucifer's existence in the first place.
That's one of the best theories I've read on this forum.
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Heh. Following that, FS3 is set 3000 years into the future, when we suddenly stumble upon 80 slumbering Sathanases.
Just kidding.
That theory is quite good though, although I'm not exactly sure what would cause the Shivans to ditch the sheath shielding concept at all. If the SF Manticore design is as old as the Lucifer, why is it that the fighter is still around, but the Lucifer isn't? Even if no lucys were built anymore, there are still so many uses for sheath shielding that it doesn't make sense for Shivans to lose it. Sure, the tech was a huge energy hog, but it made you invulnerable to anything but beams (or something like that)... That's halfway to god mode.
It's like GTVA developing Meson bombs, then saying screw it, we're not using them anymore and will not research how to turn them into torpedoes. After we down half a dozen nodes, we'll chuck the plans in the trash, since they're completely useless now >.>
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Well but shields are useless in subspace and when the ship explodes during transit, especially with 5 reactors (remember, they had to fill the Bastion's belly with Meson bombs to achieve the collapse) , the node collapses, which would quite suck for any Shivan invasion. Once the opponent starts exploiting that fact, if played right, a Shivan invasion could be stopped dead in its tracks in a few jumps. And the GTVA DID exploit it when they sealed off Capella. That strikes me as a massive strategic disadvantage to the whole concept, and I think the Shivans are smart enough to figure that out in 8000 years and ditch the concept. Maybe the Ancients themselves already exploited this fact when they closed the Knossos node in Gamma Draconis. This seems quite likely, considering how fast the node stabilised once the GTVA activated the portal, meaning when the Ancients opened it, and they had it open much longer as evidenced by the fact that they had enough time to build another Knossos in the Nebula (which I think the Shivans created by blowing up the star in that system, btw), they also had a stable node they had to collapse in order to stop the influx of Shivan warships. They may have destroyed one of the Shivan's Lucifer's, which they no doubt used for their invasion, in that node after the supernova. Either way, I think there is a solid enough rationale for the Shivans to abandon cap-ship-shields.
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Maybe the Ancients themselves already exploited this fact when they closed the Knossos node in Gamma Draconis.
There is little left for us. Little time. But much irony.
We did discover they are not invulnerable. The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed. But we have no way to deliver the hurt.
We have the knowledge but not the means. And so this is our legacy. In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace they can be tracked.
I guess this cutscene can be interpreted many ways. If we are to say "no way to deliver the hurt" means that they couldn't kill anything in subspace even though they could track them there, then the Ancients would never have made the Shivans realize how dangerous it was to mount giant power plants on their destroyers.
On the other hand, a less obvious meaning might be that "but not the means" refers to the fact that their discovery was far too late, and therefore the Ancients no longer had the means to save their civilization from ruin.
I dunno. FS1 plot wasn't exactly airtight, so whatever. I do feel though that your theory is quite good.
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I've generally taken the "no way to deliver the hurt" statement as meaning that the Ancient forces were decimated and scattered to the point that they simply had no means to launch any sort of credible attack on the Lucifer in subspace. They knew exactly how to destroy it, but they simply didn't have the ships and weapons at-hand to do so.
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Thats the impression i got as well. That the ancients were at the point where just about all they had left was harsh language and prayer
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I've generally taken the "no way to deliver the hurt" statement as meaning that the Ancient forces were decimated and scattered to the point that they simply had no means to launch any sort of credible attack on the Lucifer in subspace. They knew exactly how to destroy it, but they simply didn't have the ships and weapons at-hand to do so.
The Shivan mistake in FS1 was to leave still-organized forces at their back. We have no real reason to believe Earth could have intercepted, so the assumption I make is that there was nothing left of the Ancients forces in a posistion to intercept. You can't tackle the Lucifier head-on. You have to get in behind hit. The Ancients couldn't; dead, scattered, out of contact, whatever. There will still solid forces in front of it...but they were no good there.
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I've generally taken the "no way to deliver the hurt" statement as meaning that the Ancient forces were decimated and scattered to the point that they simply had no means to launch any sort of credible attack on the Lucifer in subspace. They knew exactly how to destroy it, but they simply didn't have the ships and weapons at-hand to do so.
I was generally under the impression that Ancient weaponry wasn't that spectacular, and instead they depended on overwhelming force to subdue their enemies.
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Their weaponry probably was somewhere below the GTA and PVN's level by the end of the Great War, but I'd imagine that they had at least something that could have taken a hack at the Lucifer's reactors.
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...It's a flying bomb.
The Lucifer was a bomb, a giant suicide weapon. It was all part of a grand plan by our "larger problem," one that may have been also testing the Terrans and Vasudans to prove their worth in some way. And then it cut off Sol from the rest of them to pervent the infighting that led to the 14 Year War in the first place.
My thoughts anyway.
IMO the Shivans abandoned the Lucifer prototype. In the first place, the Shivans probably discovered that it would be destroyed anyway in subspace. Spending five frakking reactors to generate an invincible shield? Why not just send in a fleet of biggies to destroy the universe?
The Shivans probably invaded GTVA space to gain revenge on the Vasudans. According to my speculations, the Vasudans were conquered by the Ancients. And now the Shivans fought back the Ancients. The Vasudans looked like Ancients, so the Shivans regarded them as enemies. So they attacked the Vasudans. Seeing that the Vasudans sided with the Terrans, the Shivs just tried to destroy all of them.
However, the Lucifer was probably just a small fraction of the entire Shivan fleet. The Shivans tested the power of the Terrans and Vasudans combined, by throwing in an average ship. Seeing that the "average ship" was destroyed in subspace, the Shivs just moved in a larger one; an entire armada of larger ones.
The juggernauts were used to destroy a star.
The reason why the Shivans didn't canonically return again still puzzles me. The Shivans probably just wanted the GTVA to taste some of their power, like the Americans dropping the nuclear bomb in Japan during WWII.
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...It's a flying bomb.
The Lucifer was a bomb, a giant suicide weapon. It was all part of a grand plan by our "larger problem," one that may have been also testing the Terrans and Vasudans to prove their worth in some way. And then it cut off Sol from the rest of them to pervent the infighting that led to the 14 Year War in the first place.
My thoughts anyway.
IMO the Shivans abandoned the Lucifer prototype.
`
What makes you think the Lucy was a prototype? According to the Ancients:
We did discover they are not invulnerable.
Their destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.
"
This means there was mostly likely a vast fleet of Lucifers.
It is also very possible that there are other shielded warships we haven't seen yet, but given the canon information given, we can only speculate about those.
But when I initially heard the Ancients' logs 10 years ago, I pictured fleets of Lucifers in orbit, bombarding their planets.
It made the futility of the Terran/Vasudan resistance to the Shivans seem even more hopeless, because no matter if they actually did win against this ONE Lucifer, the Shivans were most likely able to send more if need be...and FS2 showed that...with 80 Saths.
[/quote]
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What makes you think the Lucy was a prototype? According to the Ancients:
We did discover they are not invulnerable.
Their destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.
"
I wasn't saying there was only one Lucifer, I said that the Lucifer "CLASS of destroyters" was abandoned.
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What makes you think the Lucy was a prototype? According to the Ancients:
We did discover they are not invulnerable.
Their destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.
"
I wasn't saying there was only one Lucifer, I said that the Lucifer "CLASS of destroyters" was abandoned.
You said "the Lucifer prototype", which implies there would only be one.
I simply misunderstood you because of your poor choice of words ;)
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We did discover they are not invulnerable.
The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.
That's not because they say "destroyers" that you have to think "destroyer-class warship". The Shivans are called the Great Destroyers, and that's likely to be the meaning of the sentence here. And if nothing proves the Shivans weren't using a Lucifer in the Ancient-Shivan war, nothing proves they were either.
The lack of proof... Proves nothing :D
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We did discover they are not invulnerable.
The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.
That's not because they say "destroyers" that you have to think "destroyer-class warship". The Shivans are called the Great Destroyers, and that's likely to be the meaning of the sentence here. And if nothing proves the Shivans weren't using a Lucifer in the Ancient-Shivan war, nothing proves they were either.
The lack of proof... Proves nothing :D
One, your correction of my quote shouldn't have happened, as I sourced it from the FreeSpace Ref bible, so "Their" should be accepted. and thus gives a slight reference to the plural form of destroyers as the number of ships and not to the Shivans themselves. Note the non-capitalized "d" in destroyers in that sentence.
Second: "...that darkened our skies like a plague..." while is it not explicitly said, having your skies darnened by something implies either the massive size of it, or because of their large numbers. A lucifer in high orbit wouldn't be very large to the observer on the ground.
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We did discover they are not invulnerable.
The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.
That's not because they say "destroyers" that you have to think "destroyer-class warship". The Shivans are called the Great Destroyers, and that's likely to be the meaning of the sentence here. And if nothing proves the Shivans weren't using a Lucifer in the Ancient-Shivan war, nothing proves they were either.
The lack of proof... Proves nothing :D
One, your correction of my quote shouldn't have happened, as I sourced it from the FreeSpace Ref bible, so "Their" should be accepted. and thus gives a slight reference to the plural form of destroyers as the number of ships and not to the Shivans themselves. Note the non-capitalized "d" in destroyers in that sentence.
Second: "...that darkened our skies like a plague..." while is it not explicitly said, having your skies darnened by something implies either the massive size of it, or because of their large numbers. A lucifer in high orbit wouldn't be very large to the observer on the ground.
A poetic exaggeration. One Lucifer wouldn't darken the sky. But one Lucifer accompanied by a load of Cains and countless Shivan fighters could be a reason for such a metaphor. Don't take things at face value here; they are supposed to be dramatic, not accurate.
Also, if we're nitpicking about words in the Ancient monologues, listen to the movies. It's clearly "the destroyers that darkened our skies", even more so when you notice that throughout all the movies, the Ancient narrator talks about The Destroyers, as a name used to describe the Shivans. It makes no sense to assume that in just one instant, the term destroyer would be used as a ship classification. It's doubtful whether Ancients actually had such a classification for ships.
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Listen to Vip, he is right :D
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And if nothing proves the Shivans weren't using a Lucifer in the Ancient-Shivan war, nothing proves they were either.
The lack of proof... Proves nothing :D
The Vasudan scientists in Altair did say that the Ancient structures there appeared to be "destroyed by Shivan weaponry," which I kind of always translated as meaning "Lucifer weapons" myself. I guess there's no definitive proof of that, though.
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We did discover they are not invulnerable.
The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.
That's not because they say "destroyers" that you have to think "destroyer-class warship". The Shivans are called the Great Destroyers, and that's likely to be the meaning of the sentence here. And if nothing proves the Shivans weren't using a Lucifer in the Ancient-Shivan war, nothing proves they were either.
The lack of proof... Proves nothing :D
One, your correction of my quote shouldn't have happened, as I sourced it from the FreeSpace Ref bible, so "Their" should be accepted. and thus gives a slight reference to the plural form of destroyers as the number of ships and not to the Shivans themselves. Note the non-capitalized "d" in destroyers in that sentence.
Second: "...that darkened our skies like a plague..." while is it not explicitly said, having your skies darnened by something implies either the massive size of it, or because of their large numbers. A lucifer in high orbit wouldn't be very large to the observer on the ground.
A poetic exaggeration. One Lucifer wouldn't darken the sky. But one Lucifer accompanied by a load of Cains and countless Shivan fighters could be a reason for such a metaphor. Don't take things at face value here; they are supposed to be dramatic, not accurate.
Also, if we're nitpicking about words in the Ancient monologues, listen to the movies. It's clearly "the destroyers that darkened our skies", even more so when you notice that throughout all the movies, the Ancient narrator talks about The Destroyers, as a name used to describe the Shivans. It makes no sense to assume that in just one instant, the term destroyer would be used as a ship classification. It's doubtful whether Ancients actually had such a classification for ships.
End of argument, as both the Ref bible and the ancient monologue videos are considered canon, and none is "more canon" than the other.
I use the ref bible for quotes as it has much more detail and insight into the FS universe than the game itself(FS1) even has.
So we're both right :)
EDIT: Also... If the Ancients had colonised distant galaxies(When we conquered and colonized in galaxies where we had no place, the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom.), one can assume they possessed HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of systems in their empire.
You're telling me ONE shielded Lucy ("These were not like the others, they did not die") annihilated their entire civilization?
Logically it makes absolutely no sense, there HAD to be more than one Lucifer annihilating them.
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We did discover they are not invulnerable.
The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed.
That's not because they say "destroyers" that you have to think "destroyer-class warship". The Shivans are called the Great Destroyers, and that's likely to be the meaning of the sentence here. And if nothing proves the Shivans weren't using a Lucifer in the Ancient-Shivan war, nothing proves they were either.
The lack of proof... Proves nothing :D
One, your correction of my quote shouldn't have happened, as I sourced it from the FreeSpace Ref bible, so "Their" should be accepted. and thus gives a slight reference to the plural form of destroyers as the number of ships and not to the Shivans themselves. Note the non-capitalized "d" in destroyers in that sentence.
Second: "...that darkened our skies like a plague..." while is it not explicitly said, having your skies darnened by something implies either the massive size of it, or because of their large numbers. A lucifer in high orbit wouldn't be very large to the observer on the ground.
A poetic exaggeration. One Lucifer wouldn't darken the sky. But one Lucifer accompanied by a load of Cains and countless Shivan fighters could be a reason for such a metaphor. Don't take things at face value here; they are supposed to be dramatic, not accurate.
Also, if we're nitpicking about words in the Ancient monologues, listen to the movies. It's clearly "the destroyers that darkened our skies", even more so when you notice that throughout all the movies, the Ancient narrator talks about The Destroyers, as a name used to describe the Shivans. It makes no sense to assume that in just one instant, the term destroyer would be used as a ship classification. It's doubtful whether Ancients actually had such a classification for ships.
End of argument, as both the Ref bible and the ancient monologue videos are considered canon, and none is "more canon" than the other.
I use the ref bible for quotes as it has much more detail and insight into the FS universe than the game itself(FS1) even has.
So we're both right :)
EDIT: Also... If the Ancients had colonised distant galaxies(When we conquered and colonized in galaxies where we had no place, the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom.), one can assume they possessed HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of systems in their empire.
You're telling me ONE shielded Lucy ("These were not like the others, they did not die") annihilated their entire civilization?
Logically it makes absolutely no sense, there HAD to be more than one Lucifer annihilating them.
this is speculation but how about for some reason the shivans lost the technology or otherwise the ability to shield capships (hence why lucy is the only shielded capship) and the original fleet of Lucifer destroyers got whittled down slowly over the centuries by species figuring out the weakness the class and eliminating some down to the one we met or maybe a small scattering throughout the shivan fleet
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End of argument, as both the Ref bible and the ancient monologue videos are considered canon, and none is "more canon" than the other.
I use the ref bible for quotes as it has much more detail and insight into the FS universe than the game itself(FS1) even has.
So we're both right :)
Not really. We run under the principle "it's a game first" so the version that made it to release is considered to trump where they conflict.
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The Vasudan scientists in Altair did say that the Ancient structures there appeared to be "destroyed by Shivan weaponry," which I kind of always translated as meaning "Lucifer weapons" myself. I guess there's no definitive proof of that, though.
The Shivan weaponry is vast. It could be any beam-like weapon, and even if beams didn't exist at that time, Shivan bombs could have been just as efficient to level a planet. So again, the lack of proof proves nothing.
End of argument, as both the Ref bible and the ancient monologue videos are considered canon, and none is "more canon" than the other.
I use the ref bible for quotes as it has much more detail and insight into the FS universe than the game itself(FS1) even has.
So we're both right :)
Not really. We run under the principle "it's a game first" sor the version that made it to release is considered to trump where they conflict.
I agree with NGTM-1R. It is more likely than there is a typo in the FS ref bible than a mistake in the released cutscenes. And I'm for the "game first" canonicity.
And I'm just thinking : it's never said anywhere than a Shivan capital ship had a shield during the Acient-Shivan war. It's just said : "In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace they can be tracked." Maybe the Ancient were defeated only because of fighters and bombers shields. Not so unbelievable, it's a space shooter after all !
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Maybe the Ancient were defeated only because of fighters and bombers shields.
What a bunch of losers. :lol:
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If they were armed with ML-16-grade lasers, it would be absolutely possible.
That is nothing more than a supposition, but again nothing says that Shivans capital ships have shields. How do you expect the Ancients to take down the Shivans capital ships when they have a proper fighter cover with nearly-indestructible shields, and bombers with again nearly indestructible shields ? How long would we have hold weren't it for the Avenger cannon ?
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If they were armed with ML-16-grade lasers, it would be absolutely possible.
That is nothing more than a supposition, but again nothing says that Shivans capital ships have shields. How do you expect the Ancients to take down the Shivans capital ships when they have a proper fighter cover with nearly-indestructible shields, and bombers with again nearly indestructible shields ? How long would we have hold weren't it for the Avenger cannon ?
We would fly a Dragon that was discovered in Roswell to the Lucifer fighter bay, hack the Shivan shield system with an amateur trojan and then launch a Harbringer straight into their flight control, showing the Shivan flight controller our middle finger before escaping the shockwave...
Wait, I think I've seen this already somewhere :P
Aside from that, I always wondered how advanced the Ancients were. It was said by Volition that they were only just a little bit better than the Terrans or Vasudans... but from which period ? FS1 or FS2 ? If FS1, then I can easily see how they could get raeped by the Shivans. I mean, look at the Terrans and Ancients. What's the biggest difference > We encountered an enemy that was a hard nut to crack, but weren't indestructible - the Vasudans. We were at war for 14 years, developing new technologies and weaponry all the time, so that when the Shivans came, it didn't take us long to adapt. In a matter of months, we have improved our scanners, and laser weaponry like Banshee or Prometheus evolved from "fancy toys" to basic weaponry. We managed to utilize land weaponry for space usage (the Harbringer).
WARNING: PURE SPECULATION AHEAD !
On the other hand, the Ancient could have never met anybody like that. They ventured deep into space, subjugating everybody. After all this talk about how the Destroyers are actually the Preservers, who eliminate highly advanced races so that the lesser ones can have a chance of development, it's quite possibly that most of the enemies that the Ancients encountered were probably even barely capable of space flight. They didn't have to bother with upgrades, because if there were any problems it was them who had the numbers. They just flooded enemy system and took it over.
And then they encountered the Shivans. A single system of them. But they didn't want to die. It could be understood in many ways. Perhaps it's about their numbers; as observed during FS1 and FS2, for every Shivan fighter we kill, a new wing of them appears :P Or maybe it's the shields - remember the first mission with Shivans ? You could hit a Scorpion with the ML-16 for literally ages and it would not die... The only way of killing it was to use Furies to take down its shields.
And then the Shivans got pissed and started killing Ancients. System by system, cluster by cluster, galaxy by galaxy. They had te number and the time to do this. And the Ancient, not being used to adapting, couldn't help but watch as they get owned.
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If the Harbinger were an ICBM warhead, it would have been much lighter. No, it was an orbital bombardment weapon. If you're just chucking stuff into the gravity well and you want it to fall, mass helps.
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And I'm just thinking : it's never said anywhere than a Shivan capital ship had a shield during the Acient-Shivan war. It's just said : "In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace they can be tracked." Maybe the Ancient were defeated only because of fighters and bombers shields. Not so unbelievable, it's a space shooter after all !
This was exactly what I was going to suggest. Keep in mind that even before the Shivans came the GTA was on the verge of developing working shields, and by extension anti-shield weaponry.
It's possible the ancients never started down this line of research until too late...
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Re; Reference bible, and I'm sure loads of people who were around at the time are likely to back me up :P
Ref Bible = Almost completely written before most of the game was sorted through.
Several things in it were re-written during the course of the game (Apollo = Bomber ;D?), and this is also somewhat reflected in the strategy guide (which was finished a little later, between release and ref bibleage).