Hard Light Productions Forums

Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: Aardwolf on December 28, 2009, 09:12:50 pm

Title: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Aardwolf on December 28, 2009, 09:12:50 pm
It'd be a tremendously useful asset for modders and 3d modelers to have an archive (a .zip file) (or a separate archives plus a 'full' archive) containing common importable model formats such as .3ds, .obj, etc., for ships, missiles, and other special models.

I imagine the retail versions of these models would be a priority, just because mediavps models are more frequently subject to updates... For most models, I reckon only the highest LOD would be necessary... fighters might also need to have the shield meshes included. As for debris and/or destroyed submodels, I'm not too sure about that...

As for formats, I think the biggest ones are .3ds and .obj, but there might be others common ones I can't think of right now. It is important when converting that vertex positions, texture coordinates, and smoothing info (or vertex normals) are preserved, that everything is properly triangulated, and (depending on the format) that there not be redundant vertices or discontinuous faces.

Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Talon 1024 on December 28, 2009, 10:44:00 pm
But why would you want to do that? To make it easier for people to use models from the archive to create cutscenes? To make a one-stop shop for all FS fan project resources?

It's easy enough to extract the POFs you want into a temporary directory, open them up in PCS2, and save them into COLLADA format.
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Aardwolf on December 29, 2009, 12:59:45 am
More of resource for modelers interested in HTL'ing retail models, or underdetailed/unappealing mediavps models. Or making Uglies, like the ones with Native American tribe names that Galemp made, or that Orion II design.

But I suppose it would also be useful for cutscenes.

One thing about Collada though, is that not all programs can import it. My modeling program of choice, Wings3D, is one such example. The conversion process from POF to Wings3D is the only thing that I particularly dislike.

Oh yeah, and the .dae files PCS2 exports are often no good  (according to Blender).
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Droid803 on December 29, 2009, 01:10:21 am
The DAEs PCS2 makes work fine enough in 3d studio max.
However, sometimes PCS2 refuses to export (crashes with Array out of Bounds).
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Raven2001 on December 29, 2009, 08:53:22 am
I agree with Aardwolfs suggestion. I for one am just a modeler\texturer and don't know jack about the convertion and blah blah, and tbh I don't have the time to learn it for now.

Sometimes I get the itching to HTL a retail model fast, but don't do it because I don't have an easy access to the original UVed ships (meaning I'd have to start it all from scratch). If for instance I want to HTLize a fighter, having the UVed original model, would allow me to do the HTL version (textured and UVed) in 30% of the time it would take me if I had to start from scratch.

Same goes if the creators of fan models would share their obj's with the community, so that if anyone needs to make slight changes to the models for campaign purposes. Its something that wouldnt cost the model creators any time, but would save lots of it to campaign creators

So having the files in .obj format would incite me to do a bit more sometimes. So go get those files :D
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Thaeris on December 29, 2009, 02:39:33 pm
This sounds like a reasonalble plan. For example, I was wanting to compare the retail Athena to the current HTL model for accuracy; I could not export the geometry without PCS2 crashing. Thus, having a resource where all the potentially useful resources are in one place WITHOUT having to crack into the .vp files would be really great.
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: pecenipicek on December 29, 2009, 07:15:15 pm
i approve of the collada idea. cinema 4d has some minor bugs with said models but none too distrupting.



i did do something similar a long time ago for my personal pack and lost it afterwards. its a bit too much work for little gain, and honestly... almost any modeller worth his salt should know something about pofing.

POF-ing is really not that hard and really doesnt take too long to learn. lazyness of many modellers on the other hand...
Spoiler:
granted, i've been ****ing around with POF's, tables, textures, and everything else for the last 5-6 years so i'm not much to go by... + the fact i'm the only one in the tap team who can go from 3D model to ingame-worthy model without skipping out on other steps... wish i could unwrap uv's better but eh :p
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: JGZinv on December 29, 2009, 07:17:36 pm
Considering there's a guide in my sig which spells rigging out in detail for Max users
and people unfamiliar with PCS2, shouldn't be much of an issue. All you need is a model that's
UV'd properly and a texture.

Should have an updated one up within a week, fixing a few things.
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Raven2001 on December 30, 2009, 08:24:30 am
Quote from: pecenipicek on December 29, 2009, 07:15:15 pm
lazyness of many modellers on the other hand...

Its not a matter of lazyness bro, its a matter of time. For instance, I still remember I spent days trying to get a simple fighter into FS using the old Styxx Max to Pof converter... and still it was full of bugs. During those times, I had lots of free time.
Nowadays, if I have 2 hours a day of free time (and keep in mind there are other things I do in my free time besides modelling for FS), I can consider myself lucky.
Perhaps in the time it would take me to get going with converting models from FS to Max or vice versa, I could have 2 HTL fighters done...

EDIT: on the other hand, for someone who is already very familiar with the convertion processes of FS, getting all the ships in a standard format (.obj for instance) would be fairly fast. A couple of hours of that person's time, would probably be worth a hundred hours of all the other modelers combined. Simple time economics really.
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: pecenipicek on December 30, 2009, 09:26:18 am
actually obj is relatively bad when dealing with ships which use tiling too. its up to the one who assembles it in a 3D program to determine  which tex goes where and stuff like that. obj is good if you have a single texture map. (single as in no tiling). collada is superior in that order. and collada's enforcement of triangulation isnt relevant if we are talking about retail crap.
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Raven2001 on December 31, 2009, 08:06:43 am
But in obj you can have objects in quads, instead of tris, which is better to work on. Of course this is only valid for the fan made ships. Also, obj is a much more universal format, I still have to see a 3d app that doesn't support obj

But you are right on the tiling issue. Perhaps the best idea would me having both formats available
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Spicious on December 31, 2009, 09:15:43 am
Quote from: Aardwolf on December 29, 2009, 12:59:45 am
Oh yeah, and the .dae files PCS2 exports are often no good  (according to Blender).
Which is why you posted about it, detailing the precise problems, in the PCS2 Collada thread, right?

Quote from: pecenipicek on December 30, 2009, 09:26:18 am
and collada's enforcement of triangulation isnt relevant if we are talking about retail crap.
What enforcement of triangulation?

It should be quite easy to do a batch pof -> collada conversion.
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: pecenipicek on December 31, 2009, 11:16:52 am
Quote from: Spicious on December 31, 2009, 09:15:43 am
Quote from: pecenipicek on December 30, 2009, 09:26:18 am
and collada's enforcement of triangulation isnt relevant if we are talking about retail crap.
What enforcement of triangulation?

It should be quite easy to do a batch pof -> collada conversion.
Most COLLADA exporters export only triangulated models. (and it has nothing to do with batch processing of pof's to dae's...)
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Aardwolf on December 31, 2009, 02:19:37 pm
My modeling program can't import .dae, so nyeah.
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: pecenipicek on December 31, 2009, 04:37:15 pm
yes, yes the "I will whine and advocate crap because i am too utterly lazy to even check if something somewhere might exist." approach, good job, go away now, thank you.
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Spicious on December 31, 2009, 05:35:29 pm
Quote from: pecenipicek on December 31, 2009, 11:16:52 am
Most COLLADA exporters export only triangulated models. (and it has nothing to do with batch processing of pof's to dae's...)
Sounds like an exporter problem then. Batch conversion was an unrelated thing; that's why there was an empty line before it.
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Aardwolf on December 31, 2009, 07:30:07 pm
Quote from: pecenipicek on December 31, 2009, 04:37:15 pm
yes, yes the "I will whine and advocate crap because i am too utterly lazy to even check if something somewhere might exist." approach, good job, go away now, thank you.

What the **** have you been smoking?

Quote from: Raven2001 on December 30, 2009, 08:24:30 am
Quote from: pecenipicek on December 29, 2009, 07:15:15 pm
lazyness of many modellers on the other hand...

Its not a matter of lazyness bro, its a matter of time.

[...]

Perhaps in the time it would take me to get going with converting models from FS to Max or vice versa, I could have 2 HTL fighters done...

EDIT: on the other hand, for someone who is already very familiar with the convertion processes of FS, getting all the ships in a standard format (.obj for instance) would be fairly fast. A couple of hours of that person's time, would probably be worth a hundred hours of all the other modelers combined. Simple time economics really.
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Thaeris on December 31, 2009, 11:11:55 pm
I tend to ignore pecenipicek's trolling... much like I do yours...  :lol:

Regardless, AC3D doesn't import or export .dae directly either, so I have to use Blender as a medium. The only down-side to this is I dislike using Blender...

I support a package of the retail LOD 0s and current MediaVP LOD 0s for a few reasons. (a.) Time. If I don't have to crack open a VP, rip open the .pof to get the dae files (.cob blows...), use Blender to export those as .ac files, that's pretty darn handy. Now, I can still do it the long way and store the desired files for ever-and-ever on my HD somewhere, but a direct solution would be nice. (b.) What happens when PCS2 refuses to cooperate? As I said earlier, I wanted to play with the current HTL Athena to compare it to retail as well as try and fix the geometry errors (though, as of this time, I don't have the skills to put the model back in). However, instead of doing this, I got the "OH GOD IT'S so HORABLE!" message (or something close to that) instead of the model geometry. A package which I could download from FSmods with said content would save me time and prevent such setbacks in general.
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Raven2001 on January 06, 2010, 06:07:56 am
So is any action going to be taken regarding this?
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Aardwolf on January 06, 2010, 11:17:13 am
Well, fsmods is afaik still not accepting uploads...

In lieu of fsmods, I reckon people could still post links to individual models / collections of models, and collect the posted files independently... then, once a 'unified' hosting solution (e.g. fsmods) becomes available, we could sort out the bits and pieces and upload it as a package.
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Raven2001 on January 06, 2010, 11:38:17 am
Well that part is the least of my concerns. My main concern is having the models in obj format :P
Title: Re: Idea: Models (retail+mvps) in standard formats
Post by: Spicious on January 08, 2010, 01:57:39 am
I can get you as far as Collada (assuming I can be bothered to install VS).