Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: headdie on December 30, 2009, 01:07:25 pm
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After following Topic: List of Volition tabling errors (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=67179) listing issues with the Freespace 2 tables in terms of how they compare to the fluff supplied in game or otherwise conflicting data within the tables I have knocked up a small mod which "fixes" some of these issues using .tbl. So far there is just a limited fix on the ships but I want to look at the weapons table as well so any suggestions there are welcome.
http://www.mediafire.com/?zo2ynxdnotn (http://www.mediafire.com/?zo2ynxdnotn)
Please download, use and comment. Any suggestions for improvements on the changes made or new changes to make post them here for discussion.
Please note that this is a little side project to provide a non SCP supported "fix" to table entry's and not to provide the player with a set of "ultimate" fighters/weapons so new changes will have to be justifiable for example adding the
Version 1.0 - Headdie - 30-12-2009
Nahema = switched speeds around so now 72max - 90ocl
Myrmidon = added 10 to each secondary bank capacity and harpoon compatibility and removed torpedo capability
Artemis = changed bomber weight to Light and set ocl to 78 in keeping with average overclock speeds
Artemis D.H. = changed bomber weight to Light set speed to 70 to reflect the fact is supposedly superior and set ocl to 87 in keeping with average overclock speeds and the fact it shares engines with the Aries
Bakha = set ocl speed to 78 as like Artemis it was set to 65 with no bonus
Medusa = changed bomber weight to medium to better match speed, hits and capacity
Sekhmet = changed ocl speed to 70 so there is a meaningful boost but still below par this is based on the fact that though same capacity as Ursa it has slightly lighter armour and is newer
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Hmm. I'd pull Harpoon compatibility from the Myrmidon.
I will enjoy trying this out. Keep in mind it will break some campaigns.
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Remove settings.ini, multi.log and cache folder from your mod. These aren't needed. Also, you're not using a tbm correctly. When using a tbm and altering stats of existing ship, this is what you should do as an example.
$Name: GTB Artemis D.H.
+nocreate
$Rotdamp: 0.45
$Max Velocity: 0.0, 0.0, 70.0
$Allowed PBanks: ( "Balor" "Subach HL-7" "Prometheus S" "Prometheus R" "Lamprey" "Circe" "Maxim")
$Default SBanks: ( "Tornado" "Cyclops#short" "Cyclops#short" )
$SBank Capacity: ( 40, 60, 60 )
$Max Oclk Speed: 80.0
$Afterburner: YES
+Aburn Max Vel: 0.0, 0.0, 120.0
+Aburn For accel: 0.7
+Aburn Fuel: 300.0
+Aburn Burn Rate: 50.0
+Aburn Rec Rate: 25.0
In short, you use +nocreate and include only the minimum amount needed. Myrmidon's changes I personally do not agree with.
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Myrmidon = added 10 to each secondary bank capacity
Why did you do this? I don't see how it was an inconsistency to begin with.
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Myrmidon capacity was adjusted based on the fluff that the fighter has an ultra efficient hull design but it has no real advantage in missile capacity over other fighters and compared to the Apollo has identical capacity which seemed odd to me I know it has three missile banks but to me that just means fire control for three types of missile and no real indicator of volume of ordnance. The tweak puts it 10 points behind the original Herc.
I have also created separate builds one with all the tweaks and one without the weapon tweaks and ripped out the rubbish that is no longer needed in each file
complete mod]http://www.mediafire.com/?3mimitmmigm]complete mod (http://www.mediafire.com/?3mimitmmigm)
No weapon tweaks mod]http://www.mediafire.com/?2wnzjtyngyg]No weapon tweaks mod (http://www.mediafire.com/?2wnzjtyngyg)
Have fun
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Did you remember to get rid of the Helios Primaries on the Bahka and move them to secondaries?
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Myrmidon = added 10 to each secondary bank capacity
Why did you do this? I don't see how it was an inconsistency to begin with.
Nothing prevents people to make their own changes based on this fix :p. However I tend to agree with you and think this kind of criticism should be considered while finalizing this fix.
You should also consider adding the Check Hull flag to ships that tends to fire through their own hull.
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Did you remember to get rid of the Helios Primaries on the Bahka and move them to secondaries?
just done it for the next release
You should also consider adding the Check Hull flag to ships that tends to fire through their own hull.
Does anyone have a list of these ships?
also
How about the description of the Kaiser that says it was designed to be used on bombers but most of the bombers can't load it. Or the description in FS2 that says the Seth has 6 weapons but it only has 4.
I have double checked this and only the Boanerges and Osiris carry the weapon as a primary with the Ursa only carrying it in the turret what are the opinions on changing the following to have it as an available primary:
Bakha
Medusa
Amun
Boanerges
Ursa
Seraphim
Sekhmet
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Does anyone have a list of these ships?
You can add "Check Hull" to all turrets on all ships without any problems.
Most of ships with turrets have some setting which allows them to shoot throught their hull.
Also, you can add: "fire down normals", "fire on Traget" and "reset when idle" flags to multipart turrets, to enable more realistic behaviour.
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You should also consider adding the Check Hull flag to ships that tends to fire through their own hull.
I think this changes balance too much.
I have double checked this and only the Boanerges and Osiris carry the weapon as a primary with the Ursa only carrying it in the turret what are the opinions on changing the following to have it as an available primary:
Bakha
Medusa
Amun
Boanerges
Ursa
Seraphim
Sekhmet
Again, I'd say this is a big balance change more appropriate for a full-fledged mod.
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You should also consider adding the Check Hull flag to ships that tends to fire through their own hull.
I think this changes balance too much.
I have double checked this and only the Boanerges and Osiris carry the weapon as a primary with the Ursa only carrying it in the turret what are the opinions on changing the following to have it as an available primary:
Bakha
Medusa
Amun
Boanerges
Ursa
Seraphim
Sekhmet
Again, I'd say this is a big balance change more appropriate for a full-fledged mod.
Balance changes is why SCP cant officially support this. This mod is for those occasions players want to see what if the game played as the fluff says and not as balanced some will like the changes, some wont notice a change for the most part and some will not like it at all. end of the day it is up to you if you want to use this. You also might want to consider the versions with a lesser effect such as the No weapon tweaks mod which only alters ship speeds at current.
Also i know it could very easily turn into a lot of work for little gain but i want to give it a shot
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This may be fun to use with Sushi's Velocity mod.
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Hmm. I'd pull Harpoon compatibility from the Myrmidon.
I will enjoy trying this out. Keep in mind it will break some campaigns.
If you're talking about Myrmidon bombing, I think any campaign that uses that is massively flawed already. Bombing is for bombers. Not to mention the sheer game-breaking nature of being able to launch Helios in a Myrmidon, retreat at high speed for resupply, and do it again.
@headdie: I suggest you add this for the Prometheus R. This will make it more powerful than the Subach HL-7 but less powerful than the S or original:
$Name: Prometheus R
+nocreate
$Fire Wait: 0.35 ;; in seconds
$Damage: 24
$Armor Factor: 1.1
$Shield Factor: 0.8
$Subsystem Factor: 0.35
$Lifetime: 2.0
$Energy Consumed: 0.60
Have you ever tried replacing the stock Shivan lasers with the Alouqua, Citra, and Phanuel? It will teach you to treat them with a lot more respect, that's for sure. That would probably need to be in an optional TBM apart from the main package though, as people designing maps with Shivan fighters often put excessive numbers of them, making it extremely difficult to survive extended combat with them using Lightspeed's Shivan guns.
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I have huges NO against changing the stats of the Promy R and Shivans weapons. Those being pieces of crap was obviously an intended feature, for ennemies (NTF and Shivans respectively) to use weak weapons. Changing them would make for a too, too high risk of breaking balance.
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The Prom R is also a player weapon and explicitly protrayed as being stronger than the HL-7 in all flavor text concerning it.
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It obviously has a stronger per hit damage. That's all they meant, they didn't talked about the global DPS.
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According to the weapon selection stats, the Prometheus R's armor DPS is around 80 to 100, and the shield DPS is around 20 to 40.
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It obviously has a stronger per hit damage. That's all they meant, they didn't talked about the global DPS.
They didn't say anything of the sort. Samsa said that it"packs a bigger wallop" with absolutely no qualifiers attached. He wouldn't have said that if the Prom R was meant to be really weak.
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I suggest splitting each tweak into its own .tbm to make it as easy as possible for people to drop them into their own mods, add them to mods they play, disable incompatible tweaks, disable tweaks they don't like, etc..
This mod really walks the line regarding what is and is not an error, so letting people choose for themselves would be good.
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From post 1 on this topic I've been saying the correct course of action is for people to make their own remix mods. Why are you disagreeing with me if that's your contention as well?
I hope you understand why no unofficial fix could have been made widespread.
That's why this project should not be a mod to fix every "error" in the tables, but rather a repository of tweaks that are very easy to mix and match with the original FS2 campaign, new mods, and as many existing mods as possible.
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I have absolutely no problem with that.
Support people may have to tell people not to use elements of this remix mod, but in situations where it doesn't cause problems I'm sure it could bring something new to the game.
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Regarding the tweaks themselves, here are different proposed stats for the Prometheus R:
$Name: Prometheus R
+nocreate
$Fire Wait: 0.45
$Damage: 18
$Armor Factor: 2.2
$Shield Factor: 0.8
$Subsystem Factor: 0.35
$Lifetime: 2.0
$Energy Consumed: 0.60All that's changed from retail is the 2.2 armor factor up from 1.1. It matches the stats in the weapon selection screen (88 DPS). It also happens to have the same DPS as the Subach averaged over armor and shields, but that was unintentional.
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In terms of power, though, it would still pack "a bigger wallop."
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sorry not been around for a day or so been having a running phone battle with my ISP about my last payment.
braking things down to different .tbm files looks like the way to go
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I think the Prom R should have higher overall DPS than the Subach to offset its higher energy consumption.
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Nice idea, this mod :) .
But personally, I recently just re-classified the Myrmidon as a light bomber, since it's maneuvering also is pretty poor...
And as for the Nahema, I'd say it was designed to be a superior bomber, so 90 m/s top speed DO make sense... the oclk value would need to be even higher, then
(if you look at the other Shivan bombers, most have the same oclk values as the Nephilim [I think it was this one, don't have access to my .tbl's at the moment] ... I consider this a copy&paste-error - i.e. the Nephilim's entry propably was copied as base for these, and then folks at :v: forgot to change the oclk-values) .
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I don't know, whether or not the Helios deal with the Myrmidon was intentional we can't decide, but following the concept that it isn't, the manuverability shouldn't constitute its role as a bomber if it doesn't carry any anti-capital ship ordinance.
As for the Nahema, its speed, armor and shielding in comparison to the other Shivan bombers I would think its role is best suited as a Strike Bomber. Its speed is greatly superior to any other bomber in the game, yes, but its loadout is only marginally better than the Taurvi which still has greater endurance in terms of armor and shielding (And in terms of said armor, even better than the Nephilim and Seraphim), and it is extremely fragile in comparison to these other three bombers.
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Nice idea, this mod :) .
But personally, I recently just re-classified the Myrmidon as a light bomber, since it's maneuvering also is pretty poor...
the problem with that is the helios is the GTVA's heaviest fighter mounted weapon to me the cyclops would be more appropriate
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Not to mention its loadout capacity is half that of the Athena which doesn't carry bombs and the Myrmidon's capacity per bank is poorly spread.
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sorry for being quieter than expected I have let other projects take over for a few weeks below is the current set of downloads for this thing
If you want to implement these separately for some reason here are the individual downloads
GVB Bakha Helios Fix (http://www.mediafire.com/?jkjqzdg3rqm)
GTF Myrmidon Added Harpoon (http://www.mediafire.com/?2ajznzm2mdw)
Ships Speed Fix (http://www.mediafire.com/?hyyynzgtyom)
All the above Fixes in a zip file (http://www.mediafire.com/?zdgwnlmqzmf) All the above Fixes in a zip file[/URL] the mod directory is set up ready if you have any problems activating it just let me know
just a reminder of the implemented fixes
GVB Bakha
Moved Helios Compatibility from primary to secondary weapons
GTF Myrmidon
Myrmidon = Added harpoon comparability note the additional bank size has been reset to retail, if anyone wants a beefed up version let me know
Ship Speed
Nahema = switched speeds around so now 72max - 90ocl
Artemis = changed bomber weight to Light and set ocl to 78 in keeping with average overclock speeds
Artemis D.H. = changed bomber weight to Light set speed to 70 to refect the fact is is supposedly superior and set ocl to 87 in keeping with average overclock speeds and the fact it shares engines with the aries
Bakha = set ocl speed to 78 as like Artemis it was set to 65 with no bonus
Medusa = changed bomber weight to medium to better match speed, hits and cappacity
Sekhmet = changed ocl speed to 70 so there is a meaningfull boost but still below par this is based on the fact that though same cappacity as Ursa it has slightly lighter armour and is newer
the To-Do List stands at
- Remove Helios capacity from the Myrmidon as it stands i can only add features to the weapon lines
- Add hull checks on turrets (envisaging broken missions a plenty here)
- Investigate the balance of the Prometheus cannons with a view to beefing them up (this will probably make NTF missions a lot harder)
o hai i fix'd ur earls -- Jeff Vader
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Your linkage is somewhat broken.
...
GVB Bakha Helios Fix (http://www.mediafire.com/?jkjqzdg3rqm)
GTF Myrmidon Added Harpoon (http://www.mediafire.com/?2ajznzm2mdw)
Ships Speed Fix (http://www.mediafire.com/?hyyynzgtyom)
All the above Fixes in a zip file (http://www.mediafire.com/?zdgwnlmqzmf)
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Hmmm i will look into that when i get home
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Hmmm i will look into that when i get home
I fixed it.
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cheers mate
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Ok in addition to the already posted files I have knocked together a little conversion for the prom 2 to its original FS1 speck using the FS Wiki and FS port 3.1.1 weapons table. I will release an updated all in one zip when i have made an absolute decision on if and how I alter the Prom R
GVB Bakha Helios Fix (http://www.mediafire.com/?jkjqzdg3rqm)
GTF Myrmidon Added Harpoon (http://www.mediafire.com/?2ajznzm2mdw)
Ships Speed Fix (http://www.mediafire.com/?hyyynzgtyom)
All the above Fixes in a zip file (http://www.mediafire.com/?zdgwnlmqzmf)
Prometheus S to Prometheus Original (http://www.mediafire.com/?qgdmnfggzjt)
I think the Prom R should have higher overall DPS than the Subach to offset its higher energy consumption.
as for your request Woolie i am having problems balancing the changes out as the subach is more efficient on a damage/energy per shot than any prom so to make the damage per energy per shot superior to the subach i need to make it better than the original Prometheus which works out next best. what i am going to do is chart out all the primary weapons and see if that helps my tweaking in making a credible alteration.
for those who are interested
Energy Base Damage Damage to energy
per shot per shot Ratio per shot
GTW-5 Prometheus 0.4 26.0 65
GTW-5a Prometheus (retrofit) 0.6 19.8 33
GTW-5 Prometheus (standard) 1.0 30.0 30
GTW Subach HL-7 0.2 13.5 67.5
*Damage to energy ratio worked per shot as (Base Damage / Energy Usage)
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The Prom R has a better damage/shot ratio than the Prom S?
Well, ain't that just somethin'.
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It's damage/energy ratio per shot, Prom S is rather power hungry.
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Yeah, that's what I meant.
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to add extra confusion to matters there is a discrepancy between FS Port 3.1.1 tables and the Wiki about the base damage of the original Prom so I have a thread started in FS ports board to clear this up in the mean time I have set up a new file so there is one with the Wiki stated damage of 26 and one with the FS Port stated damage of 20, until this is clarified the Prom S to Original file will not be in the bulk file.
Also for this evenings version I am adding a file with a Morning Star / Flail hybrid again using FS Port data this file combines the best of both sets of values with difference, i have set the energy usage to 0.2 (as compared to the Morning Stars 0.8 and Flails 0.1) this is because i believe :v: intended for the weapon to be harder to use but as I think most players agree they broke it instead. Shivan Juggling anyone?
Finally I will be putting together a modification for tonight to make the Maxim a ballistic round limited weapon. Until it is balance i will keep it separate from the bulk distribution. I am doing this because most sources describe the weapon as a mass driver with one canon source stating it fires DPU
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The ballistic Maxim will be interesting. "...metallurgy and efficient conventional explosives." in its description is something I always thought was a good supporting statement that it would be ammunition-based.
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The FS Port team have confirmed the stats on the original Prometheus so the Prometheus S to Prometheus Original table is now in the main file.
I have also decided to include the first version of the Prom R tweak in the main distribution this adds 3 points to the base damage and deducts 0.1 point from the energy usage.
As stated in my last post I have built a hybrid for the Morning Star with many Flail stats to make it worth using.
Also I have created a separate distribution to make the maxim a ballistic ammo weapon. I have made this separate as it has relatively to the project big deal to implement. once basic stability is confirmed then this will make it into the main distribution.
GVB Bakha Helios Fix (http://www.mediafire.com/?jkjqzdg3rqm)
Morning Star Upgrade V1.0 (http://www.mediafire.com/?mzyt4tjzizm)
GTF Myrmidon Added Harpoon (http://www.mediafire.com/?2ajznzm2mdw)
Prometheus S to Prometheus Original (http://www.mediafire.com/?qgdmnfggzjt)
Prometheus R Tweak V1.0 (http://www.mediafire.com/?njjiht0yudm)
Ships Speed Fix V1.0 (http://www.mediafire.com/?hyyynzgtyom)
All the above Fixes in a zip file V1.4 (http://www.mediafire.com/?wkynlzwnqiw)
All the above Fixes in a VP file V1.4 (http://www.mediafire.com/?iikjr2ztlmt)
Add ballistic ammo to the Maxim V1.0 (http://www.mediafire.com/?utzl0zzdvxx)
Add ballistic ammo to the Maxim V1.0 in a VP (http://www.mediafire.com/?myl0deaweca)
Please download and comment
edit:
I have added newly built VP files for the bulk distributions.
Players who are new or unsure about the mod system in FSO Just create a folder in your freespace 2 folder and download the VP file(s) you want into the folder. Download This File (http://www.mediafire.com/?hmooyyyzlnn) into the same directory if you want to run just the MediaVPs with the mod. Either way when you have finished downloading set the directory you created as the target for MOD in the launcher.
Be advised that I strongly recommended using a recent SCP nightly.
Also I have noticed some instability using this mod with a debug build of the recent nightlys but the standard build works OK
/edit
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Uh. Already been done, here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=66477.0
(Below the long quote)
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fair enough mate, post removed as the file is less comprehensive than the one you provided
:edit
:bump:
any feedback from the files i have posted?
edit2
for anyone unsure about the removed content it relates to the glide feature of FSO