Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: Thaeris on January 06, 2010, 01:53:28 am
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This is perhaps asking a little too much, but is it possible that there are other "UEF-ish" systems apart from Sol due to the utilization of previously unstable/newly discovered jump nodes after 2335? I do find it a little hard to believe that we'd be stuck in one system for that long, isolated, without trying to go somewhere else... and not finding a means of doing so...
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In BP, we are sort of assuming that the Lucifer's explosion took out all interstellar jump nodes in Sol.
That's not to say that the people on Earth have been lazy in terms of research, but they didn't have the benefit of discovering Knossos portals.
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And besides
+1 for High Density Accommodation. :D
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Yeah. The Solar system is very densely populated, with extensive colonies on Mars, the Moon and even the Jovian system.
A system is a pretty big place to be stuck in, after all.
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The whole reason I intend to stake a claim to Titan before anyone else can. Calling dibs means I own it :D
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+ And have the right to rename it "Porno Island"
:pimp:
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To remain historically accurate, I ask that BP2 and all other Sol based campaigns now refer to Titan as porno island.
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I do find it a little hard to believe that we'd be stuck in one system for that long, isolated, without trying to go somewhere else... and not finding a means of doing so...
There's no reason to believe that they haven't been trying.
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I do find it a little hard to believe that we'd be stuck in one system for that long, isolated, without trying to go somewhere else... and not finding a means of doing so...
I believe at the time of the Lucifer explosion the only canon known jump route was Sol - Delta Serpentis
In 2335, the destruction of the Lucifer superdestroyer collapsed the Sol jump node in Delta Serpentis, severing all contact with Earth
you would have thought that in the time before the explosion any other jump node usable in system would have been found, it is even loosely suggested that detection of usable jump nodes is a simple matter so if they cant be detected they cant be used.
on developing new technology there is 2 avenues to approach this
1) New Technology
a) Develop a Knossos style devise.
Petrach mentions it could take over ten years to build a similar device and that is with the resources of the GTVA and Dr. Hargrove's research which Earth has neither
b) Development of a new FTL technology
Again this requires resources that Sol either has less of or could lack entirely a situation less likely than in the GTVA
2) Improvement of subspace-drive technology to alow the use of unstable nodes
naturally the efficiency of subspace drives and their ability to handle unusual circumstances would improve but this would happen slower than in the GTVA as the GTVA has more usage data to go on and more test locations so the GTVA is more likely to reach Sol through unstable nodes
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The Sol system doesn't have less ressources than the GTVA systems in FS2.
Remember in FS1 the GTA mass-produced Prometheus guns and in early FS2 the GTVA had to rely on a cheaper and thus weaker redesign because "after the loss of Sol we lacked the neccesary materials".
And while FS2 acts like there always was only the Delta Serpentis-Sol node, in FS1 there were three nodes (Delta Serpentis, Deneb and the third I'm not sure.... Vega?), but the closing sequence of FS1 said "all jumpnodes to sol have been destroyed".
Since we don't know how a jumpnode forms, it is possible that in the last 50 years a new one formed naturally, linking Sol to another unknown system (or known) system. But if that was the case I doubt the GTVA wouldn't find that node very fast, so a hidden military fortress form which suddenly UEF juggernoughts or a Shivan armada start to pour forth is rahter unlikely I think.
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IIRC :v: retconned the FS1 three jump nodes to only one : the Delta-Serpentis one.
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It may not have been a retcon of any kind. The FS1 outro said that 'all the jump nodes from Sol have been destroyed' or somesuch. ST:R proposed that the other two were 'phasing nodes' that were contingent on the existence of the Sol-Delta Serpentis primary node.
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I'd go with a 3 way junction being the simplest explanation. Say the Sol-DS node formed first, secondary and tertiary nodes would (i'd speculate) latch on to the nearest point of real-spatial weakness/sub-spatial stability, hence a 3 way-entrance to three different exits (from Sols POV) :nod:
Although.as i typed that. I was reminded of the mission in FS1 where you patrol the three nodes during the Vasuda evacuation.
:sigh:
There goes another theory. :snipe:
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I think that they were located in similar fashion, the other nodes being bound to the main one.
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It may not have been a retcon of any kind. The FS1 outro said that 'all the jump nodes from Sol have been destroyed' or somesuch. ST:R proposed that the other two were 'phasing nodes' that were contingent on the existence of the Sol-Delta Serpentis primary node.
IIRC several jump nodes (3) linked to Sol could be seen in FS1 CBs. Then in FS2 :v: published an official nodemap with only the D-S node. That is definitely a retcon, and I remember having read that they explicitly mentioned it as a retcon somewhere.
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Nonetheless the ST:R take on it explains the issue completely without any need for retcons.
The FS1 outro made it quite clear that ALL the jump nodes to Sol had been destroyed (implying more than one.) The only unclear bit is the mechanism by which this happened.
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Never said the contrary. I was just clarifying things about :v: actual canon's take on this. :)
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[shameless ad] Well our pre-FS1 campaign will have a nice little node to a totally new system... and we have a perfect reason as to why isn't it known later [/shameless ad]
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It may not have been a retcon of any kind. The FS1 outro said that 'all the jump nodes from Sol have been destroyed' or somesuch. ST:R proposed that the other two were 'phasing nodes' that were contingent on the existence of the Sol-Delta Serpentis primary node.
IIRC several jump nodes (3) linked to Sol could be seen in FS1 CBs. Then in FS2 :v: published an official nodemap with only the D-S node. That is definitely a retcon, and I remember having read that they explicitly mentioned it as a retcon somewhere.
Not true.
The only person who ever said this ever was Mobius.
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Hum...
Maybe my informations are wrong then. But they do published a canon nodemap with only the D-S node, isn't it ?
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I like the (unofficial) explenation most that all 3 nodes were destroyed, but either because it was in the "eye of the storm" or because there was an active tunnel during the explosion the Delta Serpentis one is the least unstable one.
Or maybe the other two nodes got completely obliterated while the Delta Serp. node only became unstable beyond use.
And as I type this I just got another idea:
The node in which the explosion happened stayed were it was, while the others were pushed out of the Sol system into deep space by a shockwave inside subspace. Sounds a bit wild, but hey, I'm not exactly an expert on multi-dimensional physics....
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Well, we do know that subspace nodes form in the presence of gravity wells... or something like that.
Perhaps a node... sort of like a generic "wormhole"... can be collapsed, even when not in use, by a nearby subspace cataclysm due to a sudden surge of force in the local gravity well. An "open" node with a massive expulsion of energy... into a sort of dimensional rift (AKA subspace node...)... as well as the local gravity well could very well have dire consequences on any future subspace traffic. Canon FS would seem to argue my point to an extent...
So, given that we "know" that multiple different jump nodes can form in a relatively small region (see FS1...), that would likely be a probable reason for why Sol was cut off...
However, keep in mind that Proxima and Alpha Centauri are both less than 5LY from Sol. Given that we know FS ships are very fast and powerful, is it not possible that you could propel vessels to near-C speeds? Furthermore, once you got a ship within sufficient range to the system, you could use your intrasystem drives to enter and move about the system rather than continue to drift or burn fuel... Thus, I'd assume that travel to either of those two systems could be likely for the UEF...
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Wait, wait, FreeSpace ships 'fast'?
I'm guessing that no FS ship is capable of reasonable subluminal intrasystem travel.
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I've heard the opinion before. And it's supported a little by the cutscenes. I think FS fits into the category of "play by means of game physics, tell a story by using snippets of real physics." So, it's not unreasonable.
Furthermore, if and when we get out of the solar system, by all means the first places we'll go will be Alpha Centauri/Rigel Kentaurus, Proxima, and Sirius (which is less than 9LY from Sol).
Given the number of years that passed and no effort was seemingly made to "fly" to Sol on raw power alone implies that a massive distance like that is still rather difficult, and thus explains why no one is mentioned "taking it slow" from Sirius, a postion held by the Alliance until the NTF rebellion. However, Proxima and Alpha Centauri are a bit more likely... I'd say that a 20-year voyage to either wouldn't be out of question for a Sol expedition during Reconstruction.
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I think it's assuming a lot to go with the idea that FreeSpace ships have the technical endurance or the closed-life-support-system capability required.
Murphy's Law and the nature of complex systems just seems to suggest it could be a lot harder than we assume. FreeSpace ships are basically horribly clumsy low-acceleration space stations with subspace drives, and while they can certainly keep installations going for long periods on their own, we don't know how well they'd fare on an interstellar slowboat sojourn.
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This is a little note, but I think you want to be stating "intersystem" when referencing something that's travelling between systems. "Intra-" refers to something moving within - much like a standard fighter jump. Check me on this if necessary...
A destroyer or cruiser certainly has the power to move into or out of an orbit with little problem. Doing that requires quite a bit of power, and there's no shortage of that on any FS ship I know of. If modern space propulsion has the potential to get across the solar system at a reasonable pace (well, you won't see that soon because of governments and economies... :doubt:), the FS ships certainly can do it. And do it well.
However, that doesn't bode well in warfare, where speed in the operation is critical. Thus, unless it's a peace-time op or patrol, you're not going to see the good ole' GTD GenericOrion paloosing through the planets of the Vega system. Because of the ferocity with which FS ops take place, I have no doubts that the ships in question are highly mobile. They'd have to be or they wouldn't survive! Subspace travel thus augments that capacity by months and days time, depending on the size of the system and the power of the ship of course...
Long-term survival in space is critical for the FS-verse. We know there's systems with planets, but which are habitable? One would assume that during Reconstruction you'd have situations where you'd encountered people who'd never been "planetside" before. Loosing Capella would only augment the number of people like that. For Terrans and Vasudans in the FS-verse, living in space must be a norm, not just a temporary endeavor. As such, ships in the FS-verse are designed to last and last. Canon material would seem to suggest this. Thus, long-term space voyages would certainly be possible. However, they're not practical when you could just use that new node you just found...
So, I don't think travelling slow across a system would be impossible. But, it would in most cases be doable with FS ships.
...And, interesting side note, Proxima and Alpha Centauri are only about 0.205 LY from each other. Given the massive gravity well that would ideally be formed by their close interaction could make for a logical site for a node. One would also like to assume that the resources in the system would be of great interest...
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*Edit
Zut! Alpha Centauri is already listed as location with a node connecting to FS2-era locales...
Well... Maybe someone got bored and took a few years in cryo... only to be murdered by the NTF! :lol:
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You're right, I meant intersystem (and I know the difference, thanks) but actually I'm not sure they'd be great at intrasystem travel either.
Anyway, you're guilty of confusing your personal fanon (no matter how reasonable it might seem) with what we actually know.
We have no idea whether FS ships have the power to break orbit or move around in a system. They use subspace to do this.
As far as we can tell canonically, FS ships are essentially stationary (on the system scale) and use subspace for all but minor tactical maneuvers. You are wrong to say that the ferocity of FS ops means the ships have to be sublight mobile. They have to be subspace mobile. If anything they seem to have deprecated their fusion drives as a means of moving about. The fusion drives mean nothing to their survival compared to subspace. (We're talking about vessels that consider five kilometers long range here.)
As for the issue of long-term sustainability: there is a difference between a sustainable open system and a sustainable closed one. Things tend to break down.
This is the key fault in your analysis: fuel.
A ship requires fuel to accelerate to relativistic speeds. We have no idea how much FS ships carry. Unless it is a truly unlikely amount, they will take dozens or hundreds of years to make the interstellar crossing.
The biggest piece of canonical evidence confirming this is that it was not done.
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We don't know if it was done or not... :v: never said yes on no to it. Before subspace, again, we'd probably have gone to Alpha Centauri first...
But, you're right. It's fanon. However, the "canon" information you've listed is circumstantial as well. If I may again note the point about "using game mechanics to play the story, using some real mechanics to tell the story," I don't see any reason for why the points I've listed are poor. By imposing that the circumstantial arguments (which are merely based on gameplay) are the only explanations to events, your evidence is hardly better than fanon. Your third and fourth paragraph yields itself to this condition a little... I seem to remember that intrasystem jumps were inhibited by gravity wells at close ranges, such as planets. You'd thus have to break close orbit first.
Lastly, the point of this thread... and Blue Planet in general... is speculation. Fanon. Please consider that within the discussion...
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Nope, you've got it backwards. Gravity wells enhance intrasystem jumps; in fact they're a necessary precondition. FreeSpace is oddly mute on how close one can get to a planetary body and still jump about.
There is nothing circumstantial about the fact that FreeSpace ships have extraordinarily low velocities and accelerations. Nothing at all.
Nor is there anything circumstantial about the fact that nobody flew to Earth from Alpha Centauri in spite of it being the shortest possible hop.
We NEVER SEE FreeSpace ships performing gravity slingshots, rapid sublight travel between planets, moving through mission areas at thousands of kilometers per second, engaging in RKV bombardment - any of that. It simply does not happen. It does not happen in the gameplay, nor does it happen in the fluff.
'Merely based on gameplay' is silly. Gameplay is all we have. There is no fluff that contradicts gameplay in this regard.
There's nothing to consider.
Nor does any of your argument counter the fact that even with something like realistic velocities for their fusion drives, FS ships don't appear to carry enough fuel by mass to make a relativistic journey in a reasonable timespan.
FreeSpace ships don't NEED to be fast. They can make instantaneous jumps at very rapid intervals. They can afford to putter about at ridiculously, absurdly low speeds and fight at archaic base velocities, because subspace completely changes the dynamic of the battlespace.
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Apart from the matter wether it is possible to travel between systems without subspace in FS2, would it really make sense?
Why would the GTVA want to send a ship that takes decades to Sol and then the same time to get back? Just to say "Hello we are still out there and searching for a way to repair the node"?
Pretty much the same goes for the UEF. By the time their harvesting ships return from the "nearby" systems, whatever the UEF needs the ressources for is most likely finished, used and discarded already.
Though it might make a nice storypoint for BP3 that maybe a faction in Sol build a sleepership and then build a colony in Proxima, though there has to be a subspace node there to some known system in order for them to have any impact on the story of course. From all we know the Knossos can only stabilize already existing nodes too unstable for use, not create new ones from nothing.
And about the ships not needing sublight drives: The games are very inconsitant on that part. On one side we have ships jumping out in the middle of nowhere, on the other side we have ships that need to be escorted right into the jumpnode before they can make a jump...
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Right, but those escorts are usually over a distance of a couple kilometers.
Radio transmissions between Sol and Alpha Centauri were probably attempted (and even hinted at in the BP continuity), but either they were unsuccessful or the results were classified.
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I thought those transmissions took place once the portal was up and running.
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There were probe flights. I believe there's a mention in the dossier somewhere earlier of attempted radio traffic pre-FS2.
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The biggest piece of canonical evidence confirming this is that it was not done.
True that.
But it makes for a great opening for a non-canonical campaign premise. :) What if while the Terran Knossos was still being constructed, a long-term expedition from Sol arrived? Or maybe the shattered remnants of one?
Alternately, you could base a campaign from the point of view of such a mission... what horrors lurk in the night between stars? :D
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Nope, you've got it backwards. Gravity wells enhance intrasystem jumps; in fact they're a necessary precondition. FreeSpace is oddly mute on how close one can get to a planetary body and still jump about.
I did feel a bit offended by the nature in which you replied to some of my musings. I suppose that's mostly irrelevant... please consider your tone, though. Passing me off as ignorant is a bit rash.
I'm going to try and defend one point though, or at least ask for some more information: The above statement is still bothering me. I could have sworn there was something in one of the main campaigns dealing with subspace travel being inhibited at the intra-system level due to a local gravity well... probably from a planet. I'd like to know if someone can back me up on this...
Just as clarification, I'm well aware of how intra-system movements are supposed to take place. I've also noted the proper means by which they might be employed in prior posts...
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Right, fair enough.
I'll look about for such a citation.
The only situation I can recall in FS2 in which a planet was remotely relevant was the very first mission. In that case, the civilian transports simply didn't have jump drives. Were planets at all involved in any other FreeSpace missions? Maybe something in FS1?
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I think it might have been FS1.
...Of course, it could have been a fan campaign as well, albeit a good one which made a good case in their story-writing. I'm thinking I might need to replay FS1 on the Port soon, so I'll look into this personally as well.
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I could have sworn there was something in one of the main campaigns dealing with subspace travel being inhibited at the intra-system level due to a local gravity well... probably from a planet.
That was in Derelict.
They ( :v: ) hadn't made up the "gravity affects stuff" fluff when FS1 war released, and it's not even clear they had a very clear idea of what a subspace node was either.
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Gravity was mentioned as being necessary in the FS2 intel bank, but that's about it.
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Holy ****, has anyone ever addressed this before? :O
I've replayed Enter the Dragon and the cb-ani shows the Galatea jumping from ****ING BETA AQUILAE to Sol and from there, to ****ING DENEB!
WTF? WTF? WTF?!!!
?????
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Yes. FS1 was not entirely well-thought-out.
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Just watch this: http://epichadesmaneuver.ytmnd.com/
It will explain everything.
Oh, and remember the MST3K mantra.
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There's also the potential of semi-stable nodes for FS1/FS2. Perhaps the node traveled was almost a "seasonal" thing, where it would be stable for only so much time before it became untraversable...
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Or the long-running war in FS1 meant their definitions of stability were different and they were willing to accept a higher risk of lost in transit?
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Maybe. I think Homesick used an idea similar to that for some of its story elements.
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If you mean a cruiser trying to jump through a previously unkown jumpnode which makes it collaps, taking the ship down with it, then yes.
But on the other hand in Homesick it was enough to blow up a corvette inside a subspace corridor to collapse the node. But if it is that easy, why did the GTVA have to use an Orion destroyer stuffed with Meson bombs to blow up the two capella nodes?
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Because the subspace corridor wasn't fully stable to begin with . . . or perhaps I'm confused it with Transcend.
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If you mean a cruiser trying to jump through a previously unkown jumpnode which makes it collaps, taking the ship down with it, then yes.
We don't actually know what "collapsed" means. We assume it means the node is impassible to entry attempts.
It may mean it's impassible to exit attempts.
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Collapsed is a pretty conclusive term. If I applied it to a tunnel or bridge it'd be final, no transit either way. I would expect the same from nodes. Anyway, nodes aren't really entities in themselves. It's a term that applies to points of congruence or intersection, weaknesses in space in this case. If you imagine a node as a hole in a brick wall, and A collapse as well. . . . . You get the idea ;)