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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Flipside on January 11, 2010, 02:50:40 pm

Title: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion. (Stop looking at My junk!)
Post by: Flipside on January 11, 2010, 02:50:40 pm
I'm currently in contact with my MP about concerns about these new 'full body' scanners that are allegedly going to be included at major airports soon. My concern is not so much for myself, but for Sharon, whilst I understand the need of these things, I feel myself being somewhat uncomfortable at the idea of some unknown member of staff looking at my partner naked, that, to me, hits on certain nerves, and I'm more or less certain that I'm not alone in that concern, I can foresee trouble from partners of women, especially from the more reserved religious sects.

I was wondering, what are people's opinions on these scanners, and do you think that some kind of requirement that only people of the same Gender should be operating the device, i.e. Males check male scans, females check female scans would be a good idea? Maybe I'm being old fashioned but this, to me, is quite an important issue, and there's more to 'protection' than simply anti-terrorism.

I don't object to the technology, but I feel rushing the system in could cause far more problems than the authorities seem to have considered.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Sushi on January 11, 2010, 02:53:32 pm
Total waste of money.

Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Blue Lion on January 11, 2010, 02:57:00 pm
With properly trained and competent scanners, it becomes like a nurse who sees you naked.

The basics boil down to which do you prefer: Higher security or more privacy
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 11, 2010, 02:58:45 pm
In response to first post- Of course that's how it'd work. Much like same sex arrests or same sex bcs' (customs rubber glove job) ethically and pc-wise it's the only course to follow.
 
 
One step closer to total recall :yes:
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: headdie on January 11, 2010, 03:01:17 pm
to be honest i don't see a huge issue with the device though there is no reason to "improve" the image resolution also if a more traditional frisk is still an option then there is no room for complaint.  as it stands it looks like all that can be made out is boob size on a woman and approximate package size of a bloke certainly nothing to get off on

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/10/15/article-1077800-021F42C2000005DC-703_468x395.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-body_scanner
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Flipside on January 11, 2010, 03:04:07 pm
That's the problem Decker, to me or you, it makes sense, but I've seen no indication whatsoever that this is what is planned.

As for the question of Security over Privacy, like all things in life, it's a balancing act, Security is good, but if it comes at the cost of Privacy, weighing up the balance is extremely important. To emphasize Franklin, there is a line to which you can push privacy for the sake of security.

@headdie, resolution isn't really so much an issue, as the thought (or lack thereof) behind the implementation, I feel awkward having my wife looked at naked, can you imagine how a devout Sikh or Muslim would feel knowing his partner is being looked at naked by a stranger? I'd very much like to know what kind of protection is being put in place for situations such as this, and at the moment, no information is forthcoming.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: StarSlayer on January 11, 2010, 03:15:20 pm
I'm curious how long it will be before they start popping up on youtube.  I also noticed they made sure to show people in decent shape in the demo reels instead of displaying obese folks.

Quite frankly I really think instead of wasting money on stupidly expensive scanners use that money to hire and train competent people to man the searches and take a cue from how Israel does there airport security.  IIRC Israel does their searches and scans right before you board and actually has secuirty folks walk though the line asking a carefully formulated questionnaire geared towards honing down the suspicious parties.  Stopping Grandma Kettle for a full search for the sake of being PC is a waste of time and safety.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Rian on January 11, 2010, 03:23:57 pm
I don’t personally give a **** if someone wants to look at a low-rez untextured image of my bits. It’s not even as intrusive as being patted down, since they don’t have to touch you and all. I do, however, object to the inconvenience, the probability of longer lines, and the officious knuckleheads who are inevitably going to be manning these scanners. Not to mention the considerable expense and training required to actually implement them.

Someone on another site pointed out that this technology wouldn’t actually have stopped the underpants bomber or the shoe bomber or what have you, and frankly I’m tired of the security theater. It’s not the breach of privacy that concerns me most, it’s the fact that they’ve failed to convince me it will do any good.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Bob-san on January 11, 2010, 03:25:17 pm
I'm curious how long it will be before they start popping up on youtube.  I also noticed they made sure to show people in decent shape in the demo reels instead of displaying obese folks.

Quite frankly I really think instead of wasting money on stupidly expensive scanners use that money to hire and train competent people to man the searches and take a cue from how Israel does there airport security.  IIRC Israel does their searches and scans right before you board and actually has secuirty folks walk though the line asking a carefully formulated questionnaire geared towards honing down the suspicious parties.  Stopping Grandma Kettle for a full search for the sake of being PC is a waste of time and safety.
Because stereotyping and racial profiling is illegal in the USA. For example, pulling over a black man driving a junker during rush hour can be considered racial profiling, because they're black and ALL black men driving ****ty cars are smuggling drugs. Et cetera. It's illegal in this country, both fortunately and unfortunately.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: StarSlayer on January 11, 2010, 03:33:56 pm
I'm curious how long it will be before they start popping up on youtube.  I also noticed they made sure to show people in decent shape in the demo reels instead of displaying obese folks.

Quite frankly I really think instead of wasting money on stupidly expensive scanners use that money to hire and train competent people to man the searches and take a cue from how Israel does there airport security.  IIRC Israel does their searches and scans right before you board and actually has secuirty folks walk though the line asking a carefully formulated questionnaire geared towards honing down the suspicious parties.  Stopping Grandma Kettle for a full search for the sake of being PC is a waste of time and safety.
Because stereotyping and racial profiling is illegal in the USA. For example, pulling over a black man driving a junker during rush hour can be considered racial profiling, because they're black and ALL black men driving ****ty cars are smuggling drugs. Et cetera. It's illegal in this country, both fortunately and unfortunately.

I'm not specifically saying they should racialy profile, but if they bothered to ask some fairly simple questions before they allowed people to board they would probably have a much better chance of pulling out a threat then just randomly grabbing someone with a negligible threat index.  Something along the lines of, "Why are you flying one way to Detoit with no luggage?" might be a good one.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Flipside on January 11, 2010, 03:45:52 pm
Quote
I don’t personally give a **** if someone wants to look at a low-rez untextured image of my bits. It’s not even as intrusive as being patted down, since they don’t have to touch you and all

Agreed, however, there are certain rules about who can pat you down, just as there are rules about who can perform a strip-search. I've seen no evidence of any such rules in place for these devices.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Blue Lion on January 11, 2010, 03:59:07 pm
Quote
I don’t personally give a **** if someone wants to look at a low-rez untextured image of my bits. It’s not even as intrusive as being patted down, since they don’t have to touch you and all

Agreed, however, there are certain rules about who can pat you down, just as there are rules about who can perform a strip-search. I've seen no evidence of any such rules in place for these devices.

So the basic concern is some guy might see her boobs?
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Flipside on January 11, 2010, 04:04:57 pm
In essence, yes, and so is hers, she is an introvert individual who feels extremely uncomfortable at the lack of information being given out and at the possiblity of a complete stranger of unknown gender looking at her naked, people may consider that 'silly', but that's because we are being trained to expect no loss of personal privacy to be too great for the sake of security. The concern is short-ranged in one respect, but long-ranged from the slippery-slope point of view.

Edit: I thought I stated all this in the first post, that my problem wasn't with the tech, but with the lack of definition about who would be operating it, and what rules would be in place to protect personal privacy?
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Blue Lion on January 11, 2010, 04:11:02 pm
In essence, yes, and so is hers, she is an introvert individual who feels extremely uncomfortable at the lack of information being given out and at the possiblity of a complete stranger of unknown gender looking at her naked, people may consider that 'silly', but that's because we are being trained to expect no loss of personal privacy to be too great for the sake of security. The concern is short-ranged in one respect, but long-ranged from the slippery-slope point of view.

And that is where we have to weigh individual vs society.

Really the first question is: would something like this work? If it can detect bombs and drugs and weapons and wild animals and whatnot, then it's on to more questions.

If it doesn't work, then it's a waste of time.

If it does work, then we have to ask what is more important: catching bombs and such before they get into areas and on places, or a person's shyness about their body? Someone will always be shy about some form of personal contact and it's just not really possible to avoid all contact in these areas.

To me the real issue is children and teenager. Who looks at the 17 year old girls? (Jokes over there please)

If it works, it works. Get properly trained people (ha ha ha ha) and be as discreet as possible. Those people who are shy about it are going to have to grin and accept it I guess. Same as they do at the hospital.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Flipside on January 11, 2010, 04:19:47 pm
Once again though, in a hospital, there are rules, a male nurse cannot examine a female patient without a female nurse being present etc, I agree that properly trained personel would work, but that's my entire complaint, we are being told that the system is going to be operated by 'trained personel', and that's it, no further details on what action is going to be taken to protect personal modesty. In Finland, which has operated the system for some months, there are rules in place, the head is not in the image, and people can opt for a pat-down if they wish, in the UK, no information whatsoever has been given, and I am nervous about accepting such technology based on so few assurances.

It's not so much about people being shy about their bodies as it is a requirement for the same level of respect being shown regarding the use of these scanners as there is shown in other situations where a persons body is being examined in some way, I think the system is being rushed in after the incident on Christmas day, and we are getting little, if any, clarification on the matter. That worries me.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 11, 2010, 04:23:22 pm
I stand by my belief that like a medical exam. Civil rights will kick in and same sex 'observations' will be the standard. I've got nothing but empathy for you and the Missus Flipside. Let's hope decency wins out.
 
On a very related note, in my current employ one of my many tasks is that I operate an x-ray machine scanning inbound couriers and it's not really that great at breaking down potential threats. I got the dubious honour due my my prior EOD training. I've caught a few kitchen knives and two plastic guns over the xmas period. To be honest after half an hour attention wavers and I pity the operative who has to check thousands of people on a daily basis as their focus WILL slip and we know what happens then. . . . . . .
I for one hope if I ever go through one of those scanners it's not cold. :nervous:
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: zookeeper on January 11, 2010, 04:25:39 pm
Why has no one mentioned the person viewing the images sitting in a separate room and being unable to see the actual people? I see no mention of that, either that it's done that way in whatever country Flipside is talking about or that it's not done that way, even though that's the #1 detail that comes up every time on the subject of these scanners.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Blue Lion on January 11, 2010, 04:29:19 pm
Once again though, in a hospital, there are rules, a male nurse cannot examine a female patient without a female nurse being present etc, I agree that properly trained personel would work, but that's my entire complaint, we are being told that the system is going to be operated by 'trained personel', and that's it, no further details on what action is going to be taken to protect personal modesty. In Finland, which has operated the system for some months, there are rules in place, the head is not in the image, and people can opt for a pat-down if they wish, in the UK, no information whatsoever has been given, and I am nervous about accepting such technology based on so few assurances.

It's not so much about people being shy about their bodies as it is a requirement for the same level of respect being shown regarding the use of these scanners as there is shown in other situations where a persons body is being examined in some way, I think the system is being rushed in after the incident on Christmas day, and we are getting little, if any, clarification on the matter. That worries me.

That's what I mean. In the worst case scenario (I know we can think of worse) a guy will see a weird image of a woman's chest or something. I guess what I'm saying is your wife's (or anyone's really, this is just what we're dealing with) concerns about some guy seeing her wouldn't outweigh the potential benefits if a system such as this works.

If it works and the guys running it aren't recording footage for sale or are rapists or anything, oh well.

I have no idea what exact specifications and rules will be implemented, that's why I haven't commented on those parts. But if it works and the people running it meet a good criteria, shyness takes a backseat.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 11, 2010, 04:33:04 pm
Agreed, however, there are certain rules about who can pat you down, just as there are rules about who can perform a strip-search. I've seen no evidence of any such rules in place for these devices.

It's not reasonable to extend the same protections to your image as it is to your body.

Put another way, you are attempting to control who is allowed to look at you.

That's a giant step backwards from most rights perspectives.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: General Battuta on January 11, 2010, 04:34:31 pm
I don't think so. I get the feeling that there are laws regarding the control of who can look at you naked without your consent.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: iamzack on January 11, 2010, 04:37:22 pm
I'd prefer the scanners to friskings easy. I don't see how a woman feeling me up is any better than a dude.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 11, 2010, 04:37:38 pm
I don't think so. I get the feeling that there are laws regarding the control of who can look at you naked without your consent.

You're assuming that the presence of a ticket in your hand when you know such scanners are in use will not legally count as consent. That is an extremely large "if".
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Blue Lion on January 11, 2010, 04:38:18 pm
I don't think so. I get the feeling that there are laws regarding the control of who can look at you naked without your consent.

Is it really considered naked though?
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: General Battuta on January 11, 2010, 04:39:06 pm
I think that's an issue that has yet to be resolved.

I'm not making any assumptions as to how it will be resolved, merely saying that controlling the right to look at someone's image is not a giant step backwards for rights.

I don't think so. I get the feeling that there are laws regarding the control of who can look at you naked without your consent.

Is it really considered naked though?

No idea, I didn't make a single statement about the scanner. Just about laws about looking at people naked without their consent.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Flipside on January 11, 2010, 04:40:06 pm
Quote
Why has no one mentioned the person viewing the images sitting in a separate room and being unable to see the actual people? I see no mention of that, either that it's done that way in whatever country Flipside is talking about or that it's not done that way, even though that's the #1 detail that comes up every time on the subject of these scanners.

Because in many ways, it's irrelevant, politicians have been repeating this ad nauseum, but it really doesn't make a difference, otherwise it's re-writing the rules on personal privacy, you don't have to be in the same room to invade someone's privacy.

@Blue Lion, exactly, that's why I'm writing to my Politician, to try and get clarification on the rules and regulations these people will have to abide by. Sharon has no problem with the matter if she knows that a female is operating the machine, but would feel like she was being violated (to use her own words) if a man was doing it. Old fashioned, perhaps, but, as I said earlier, mine is only a case of uneasiness, there are also situations out there such as religious sects etc where such a thing is not only embarassing, it's actually considered sinful, what measures are going to be put in place to protect against that? Nothing has been forthcoming yet.

Quote
Put another way, you are attempting to control who is allowed to look at you.

No, I am attempting to control who is allowed to look at my wifes naked body, that's not a step backwards at all, it's being a human being, and if security starts to take my humanity, then,quite frankly, what's the point?


It's a thin line being walked between the rights of the individual and national security, whilst the protection of all on the plane is paramount, we have to be very careful not to lose sight of the very freedoms, rights and privacies we are aiming to protect.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: iamzack on January 11, 2010, 04:43:42 pm
What if the woman working the machine is gay? Then what makes her different from a man?

That's why I don't get it. XP
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Flipside on January 11, 2010, 04:46:07 pm
Sharon wouldn't be bothered by that to be honest zack, I don't think a gay woman can realistically be defined as 'no different from a man', that's a pretty odd definition.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 11, 2010, 04:47:21 pm
I'm not making any assumptions as to how it will be resolved, merely saying that controlling the right to look at someone's image is not a giant step backwards for rights.

But it is, according to numerous court rulings. The paparazzi wouldn't exist without it. 

It's a thin line being walked between the rights of the individual and national security, whilst the protection of all on the plane is paramount, we have to be very careful not to lose sight of the very freedoms, rights and privacies we are aiming to protect.

This is a public setting. Your reasonable expectation of privacy is void. Courts have already ruled such on dozens of other forms of surveillance. Similar surveillance mechanisms that could look through walls were ruled legal years ago.

This argument doesn't have a legal leg to stand on it.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 11, 2010, 04:48:46 pm
Sharon wouldn't be bothered by that to be honest zack, I don't think a gay woman can realistically be defined as 'no different from a man', that's a pretty odd definition.

Then why exactly is she upset, if not for the sexual connotations of being looked at by a man, for which purposes a gay woman is more or less the same? Zack's right here.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Flipside on January 11, 2010, 04:52:32 pm
Legal leg to stand on? I'm not taking this to court, I'm trying to define some basic level of decency and rights for the people who will be examined by these things. There's considerably more to the world, and to humanity than 'legal legs'.

As for the 'gay woman' thing, go up to a Lesbian and accuse her of being 'just like a man' because of her sexual preferences. I'll speak to you when you get out of hospital.

You seem to be of the opinion thay no loss of personal privacy is too great for the sake of security, that's more than a bit troubling.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: General Battuta on January 11, 2010, 04:54:38 pm
I'm uncomfortable with putting this much pressure on Flipside and Sharon. They aren't under any obligation to explain themselves to anybody.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: headdie on January 11, 2010, 04:59:06 pm
i think the issue that needs to be clarified here is whether the image on screen is an image of the person, yes i know the image is generated from a scan of the person but what is generated is an image that shows an outline of a person with some outlining of larger areas of the body with some skin penetration in thin areas like the face showing parts of the skull.  

On another angle if you put 3 images generated from this of three people with similar body shape would you be able to tell them apart?
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Flipside on January 11, 2010, 05:03:52 pm
It's ok GB, I did ask opinions, admittedly, I was hoping to hear more about people's opinions on the scanners themselves than accusations that Sharon and I should 'get used to it', considering I made it clear in my first post, and re-iterated later that my main concern wasn't with the devices, but with the rules regarding operating them, but, I wonder, how many men here would feel comfortable with having their partners nude body examined by someone hidden behind a wall, without knowing anything about what is actually going on back there or about what rules they are adhering to.

@headdie, I understand what you are saying, but I think personal privacy is not really a question of whether you look like someone else, so much as it is about personal space and respect for the individual.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: headdie on January 11, 2010, 05:11:15 pm
It's ok GB, I did ask opinions, admittedly, I was hoping to hear more about people's opinions on the scanners themselves than accusations that Sharon and I should 'get used to it', considering I made it clear in my first post, and re-iterated later that my main concern wasn't with the devices, but with the rules regarding operating them, but, I wonder, how many men here would feel comfortable with having their partners nude body examined by someone hidden behind a wall, without knowing anything about what is actually going on back there or about what rules they are adhering to.

@headdie, I understand what you are saying, but I think personal privacy is not really a question of whether you look like someone else, so much as it is about personal space and respect for the individual.
/me cringes for the slam at how conceptual at what he is saying

but at the same time if you cant identify a person from this system how has a person privacy been invaded? as a society identity has become the representation of privacy.  I know there are some element of privacy that cant be easily (if at all) explained in words and it is somewhere in that soup the key to the answer to of if this is a good thing or not.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Rian on January 11, 2010, 05:12:38 pm
Actually, it occurs to me that the group most threatened by these scans is transgendered folks whose gender identification doesn’t match their physical characteristics. This kind of scan could put them at risk for harassment or worse, and I think that we need to respect the fact that some people might be legitimately threatened by such exposure. Through I personally do not feel threatened by the images these scanners produce, I would wholeheartedly support greater protection for people who have a lot more to lose than I do.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Titan on January 11, 2010, 05:15:03 pm
When I first read that the first thing that came to my head were of a couple of office workers getting drunk in the copy room, one of the them going unconscious, falling on a scanner, and then woke up in the morning to find the picture being circulated all around the office.

...

In other news,

(http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/epic-fail-airport-security-fail.jpg)
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Flipside on January 11, 2010, 05:22:20 pm
Exactly, it all boils down to that mess of emotions known as 'humanity', and that includes protectiveness of our mate, in various forms. Whilst I'm willing to make sacrifices for the greater good, I won't sacrifice things that make me human, otherwise I am losing the very thing I'm supposed to be defending. It doesn't take much compromise to come to a moderately acceptable solution, but the lack of information concerns me greatly.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: General Battuta on January 11, 2010, 05:30:54 pm
Well, I have to say I'm fine with it if my partner is fine with it, and she is. But I don't ask that everyone else feel that way.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Blue Lion on January 11, 2010, 05:36:24 pm
Exactly, it all boils down to that mess of emotions known as 'humanity', and that includes protectiveness of our mate, in various forms. Whilst I'm willing to make sacrifices for the greater good, I won't sacrifice things that make me human, otherwise I am losing the very thing I'm supposed to be defending. It doesn't take much compromise to come to a moderately acceptable solution, but the lack of information concerns me greatly.

Keeping body parts from the eyes of others isn't what makes you human.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Flipside on January 11, 2010, 05:37:51 pm
I didn't say it was, I said protectiveness of our partners and compassion towards their concerns is. Empathy, it's a very human trait.

I'm not really asking that everyone have a problem with it, but there still has to be consideration given to those who do have concerns, otherwise we are backtracking on years of progress, an answer along the lines of 'tough luck',to those people, to me, suggests that the feelings and concerns of those who are not 'with us' are losing importance, and if that's the case, we aren't fighting oppressive regimes, we are creating them.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Blue Lion on January 11, 2010, 05:40:09 pm
I didn't say it was, I said protectiveness of our partners and compassion towards their concerns is. Empathy, it's a very human trait.

I'm not really asking that everyone have a problem with it, but there still has to be consideration given to those who do have concerns, otherwise we are backtracking on years of progress, an answer along the lines of 'tough luck',to those people, to me, suggests that the feelings and concerns of those who are not 'with us' are losing importance, and if that's the case, we aren't fighting oppressive regimes, we are creating them.

But you ARE protecting them. You're just trading "they won't see her body" for "people won't blow her up".

Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: General Battuta on January 11, 2010, 05:41:10 pm
Have any evidence for that?
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Flipside on January 11, 2010, 05:42:45 pm
I don't even think he's reading my posts to be honest.

I knew it was a mistake to ask here.

So, for the third time, it's not about the tech, it's about the way it's implemented. I don't have a problem with the idea of the scanners as long as they are used in such a way as to respect the people being scanned, and that the same sort of defences are put in place here as are in place in any other situation where a persons body needs to be examined.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Nuke on January 11, 2010, 05:54:44 pm
id rather take my chances with the terrorists.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Rian on January 11, 2010, 05:55:39 pm
What it has to come down to is whether the sacrifices we make in privacy are compensated by a sufficient improvement in security. For that reason I don’t think it’s valid to assume that this technology will make us safer, even just for the sake of argument, because it completely alters the terms of that balance and invalidates any conclusion reached.

In this case, I think the costs of implementing the body scan technology vastly outweigh the projected benefits. The expense, training costs, inconvenience, and breach of privacy it would entail are not acceptable when weighed against the (dubious) benefits.

Besides, air travel is already the safest mode of transit by far, and you’re about twenty times more likely to be struck by lightning than you are to be a victim of terrorism in-flight. If you can’t handle that amount of risk, you should probably be cowering in a bunker somewhere anyway.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: General Battuta on January 11, 2010, 05:56:49 pm
Seriously.

If you flew on airplanes continuously for about 3000 years, odds are you would encounter 1 terrorist attack at about year 3000.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Blue Lion on January 11, 2010, 05:58:58 pm
I don't even think he's reading my posts to be honest.

I knew it was a mistake to ask here.

So, for the third time, it's not about the tech, it's about the way it's implemented. I don't have a problem with the idea of the scanners as long as they are used in such a way as to respect the people being scanned, and that the same sort of defences are put in place here as are in place in any other situation where a persons body needs to be examined.

And as I've said before, as long as the people are properly trained, whether it's a man or woman looking is completely meaningless to the process save the shyness of the person being scanned.

The people doing the scanning is not the issue. We've all agreed these people need to be properly trained and not perverts who will scan women and then call them over to "pat them down".

No one is arguing against that. I don't even think that's a point you're making but I want to clarify that for the next piece. As long as they aren't dangerous to the person, I don't care about their gender or whether or not they can see their face.

I'm not saying your concerns are wrong, or that you shouldn't have them. But in terms of security and what we're talking about here, it's irrelevant.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Blue Lion on January 11, 2010, 05:59:41 pm
What it has to come down to is whether the sacrifices we make in privacy are compensated by a sufficient improvement in security. For that reason I don’t think it’s valid to assume that this technology will make us safer, even just for the sake of argument, because it completely alters the terms of that balance and invalidates any conclusion reached.

In this case, I think the costs of implementing the body scan technology vastly outweigh the projected benefits. The expense, training costs, inconvenience, and breach of privacy it would entail are not acceptable when weighed against the (dubious) benefits.

Besides, air travel is already the safest mode of transit by far, and you’re about twenty times more likely to be killed by lightning than you are to be killed by a terrorist in-flight. If you can’t handle that amount of risk, you should probably be cowering in a bunker somewhere anyway.

We are basing this on the assumption that it works (I am anyways). If it doesn't work, then any privacy issues are meaningless since we shouldn't be using it then.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 11, 2010, 06:00:08 pm
Legal leg to stand on? I'm not taking this to court, I'm trying to define some basic level of decency and rights for the people who will be examined by these things. There's considerably more to the world, and to humanity than 'legal legs'.

How is such a thing expressed and enforced in society?

The courts.

As for the 'gay woman' thing, go up to a Lesbian and accuse her of being 'just like a man' because of her sexual preferences. I'll speak to you when you get out of hospital.

That is absolutely unrelated to anything in the argument.

We're talking about why Sharon would be uncomfortable with being observed in this fashion. If it's not sexual, then it's a blanket problem and should apply to all sexes; you rejected that earlier in the thread with your agreement with Dekker. But if it is sexual, i.e. oh gross somebody's getting off to this, then it should apply to both heterosexual men and and homosexual women...yet you've rejected that too.

So basically there's nothing left here. This Doesn't Work.

You seem to be of the opinion thay no loss of personal privacy is too great for the sake of security, that's more than a bit troubling.

I have said nothing of the sort, and believe nothing of the sort, and you have no reason to say that I do, except as an ad hominem and straw man.


Now if you're going to make coherent cost-based arguments like Rian, then we can talk. But you haven't got anything Flip, you've contradicted yourself and you're trying to talk "human dignity" as if keeping that sort of thing safe isn't part of the job of the legal system, so I don't even know where you're coming from. Nothing you've said makes any real sense.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Rian on January 11, 2010, 06:04:26 pm
What it has to come down to is whether the sacrifices we make in privacy are compensated by a sufficient improvement in security. For that reason I don’t think it’s valid to assume that this technology will make us safer, even just for the sake of argument, because it completely alters the terms of that balance and invalidates any conclusion reached.

In this case, I think the costs of implementing the body scan technology vastly outweigh the projected benefits. The expense, training costs, inconvenience, and breach of privacy it would entail are not acceptable when weighed against the (dubious) benefits.

Besides, air travel is already the safest mode of transit by far, and you’re about twenty times more likely to be killed by lightning than you are to be killed by a terrorist in-flight. If you can’t handle that amount of risk, you should probably be cowering in a bunker somewhere anyway.

We are basing this on the assumption that it works (I am anyways). If it doesn't work, then any privacy issues are meaningless since we shouldn't be using it then.
The first paragraph of that post you quoted explicitly states why we should make no such assumptions. It invalidates the cost-benefit analysis and produces misleading conclusions.

I edited the original post to more accurately state the statistical comparison. The argument is unchanged.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Flipside on January 11, 2010, 06:04:52 pm
Quote
Quote from: Flipside on 11 January 2010, 23:52:32
Legal leg to stand on? I'm not taking this to court, I'm trying to define some basic level of decency and rights for the people who will be examined by these things. There's considerably more to the world, and to humanity than 'legal legs'.

How is such a thing expressed and enforced in society?

The courts.

Quote from: Flipside on 11 January 2010, 23:52:32
As for the 'gay woman' thing, go up to a Lesbian and accuse her of being 'just like a man' because of her sexual preferences. I'll speak to you when you get out of hospital.

That is absolutely unrelated to anything in the argument.

We're talking about why Sharon would be uncomfortable with being observed in this fashion. If it's not sexual, then it's a blanket problem and should apply to all sexes; you rejected that earlier in the thread with your agreement with Dekker. But if it is sexual, i.e. oh gross somebody's getting off to this, then it should apply to both heterosexual men and and homosexual women...yet you've rejected that too.

So basically there's nothing left here. This Doesn't Work.

Quote from: Flipside on 11 January 2010, 23:52:32
You seem to be of the opinion thay no loss of personal privacy is too great for the sake of security, that's more than a bit troubling.

I have said nothing of the sort, and believe nothing of the sort, and you have no reason to say that I do, except as an ad hominem and straw man.


Now if you're going to make coherent cost-based arguments like Rian, then we can talk. But you haven't got anything Flip, you've contradicted yourself and you're trying to talk "human dignity" as if keeping that sort of thing safe isn't part of the job of the legal system, so I don't even know where you're coming from. Nothing you've said makes any real sense.

And you think that hurling insults makes you right?

I can see that it really is pointless trying to have any kind of conversation here, I never stated it was about sexual arousal, I didn't define what concerned me because I cannot define in words what concerns me, this was clarified later on by Rian who stated exactly the same thing, that it's a question of emotion.

Frankly, I can remember when this site was full of intelligent people who could hold a debate without hurling insulting and small minded comments. Sadly I can see those days are gone.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: General Battuta on January 11, 2010, 06:12:38 pm
Okay, wow, this is disgusting. Leave Flipside alone. NGTM-1R, you need to back way off. You are now aggressively pressing a person who is not even present on the boards to conform to your opinions.

Locked.

EDIT: oh, already locked. Good move.

God, what a sad day for GenDisc. People need to learn some etiquette. There is no excuse for this behavior.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Flipside on January 12, 2010, 04:59:39 am
Well, to be honest, having read ngt's post again, it's not only attempting to attack me, it's attempting to attack my relationship, and feelings for, my partner. ngt obviously thinks that nothing is worth respect if it doesn't match up to his own opinion, and that there is nothing he cannot attack or insult if he feels he is right. He refuses to argue like an adult and instead reverts to childish attacks and, quite frankly, in insulting my relationship and feelings for Sharon, he has crossed the line.

I can't stay in a Forum with people like that, sorry, but when someone demands that I justify caring about my wifes' concerns, and tries to reduce my feelings for her to some kind of legal argument, it's obvious I'm dealing with someone who has never been in love and has no clue what it entails, and has no concept of standing up for someone else's feelings.

For that reason, I'm hanging up my GenDis badge, I've tried treating everyone in here like mature adults, and some people seem incapable of being so, at 37 I no longer have the patience to deal with squalling children who are more concerned with 'winning arguments' than actually having an intelligent discussion or even attempting to empathise with people who's opinion is different from their own.

From here on outwards you are at the mercy of Nuke and Colonol Decker, I'm just going to be sticking to the Diaspora and other Freespace project forums.
Title: Re: Full body Scanners? - Your opinion.
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 12, 2010, 05:32:17 am
Well done guys.
 
This shows how being stubborn and unwilling to listen can totally ruin a situation.