Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Kazan on April 11, 2002, 06:56:02 am
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In light of recent events I beleive it is time for.
The FreeSpace Forever Project to be started.
FreeSpace Forever is a new engine for the FreeSpace 2, using the same datafiles [or as close to them as possible... damn MVE copyright] that will be cross-platform, and naturally have more capabilities than the origional.
We all know that I cannot write this alone, I don't even know where to begin on optimized[/b] OpenGL programming. So Progammers UNITE, let's bring new life to our beloved FreeSpace.
[never saw it coming after my last VBB thread did ya?]
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Intresting.... pull this off and I'll take my hat off to you and apologise for the name calling. However aren't there copyright issues to think about?
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He is makeing a new game engine right? so why worry about copyrights? or am i missing something here....
*Go's back to animation*
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Its the same kind of legal issues that we have with The Babylon Project and the same kind oh so many other MODs have (inside and outside of the community).
Oh yes, and an old VBB topic (years ago) has permanently scarred me for life. Whenever I see a forum topic with UNITE in it...I instead see UNTIE! :D
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naughty :D
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Originally posted by IceFire
Its the same kind of legal issues that we have with The Babylon Project and the same kind oh so many other MODs have (inside and outside of the community).
But - correct me if I'm wrong here - this copyright would be needed from Volition or Interplay...You can't just build a game engine and immediately base the whole thing on the Freespace universe, it might not be profit making but I'm sure there's some problem with this...
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Originally posted by Thunder
But - correct me if I'm wrong here - this copyright would be needed from Volition or Interplay...You can't just build a game engine and immediately base the whole thing on the Freespace universe, it might not be profit making but I'm sure there's some problem with this...
Actually, the engine would have nothing to do with Freespace, it would just support similar file formats - meaning that anyone who already has Freespace or Freespace 2 would be able to use the files on the new engine. It's a good idea, and I don't see any real legal problems with it.
Good luck, though - unfortunately I don't have time to help on this right now...
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Fair enough - also, would a new story be written and so on, or would it be a straight port of one of the old stories (yet more legal issues there of course)...
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MVE?
bah.
DIVX.
As for copyright issues...well. Put together a demo, send it off to them and see what they say.
I like optimised OpenGL...contact 3dlabs and see if they'll give you some openGL 2.0 stuff, i think most of the infrastructure is in place, plus its backwards compatible.
By the time the engine gets together etc. , I should have finished most of my work for Descent4 so I could give everyone a hand with models/cinematics etc. :D
I really like this idea - specially if it draws on a community as huge as HLP - but the self-discipline needed in telecommuting is huge.
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Agreed, although I can't help with much work on it I'm certainly interested and immediatly offer HLPs services for hosting as soon as some kind of shape comes to this.
Also I must warn that (in light of VBB occurences) if this thread or any other related to it becomes a flame war it'll be locked on sight. Just thought I'd make it clear :)
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Originally posted by wEvil
MVE?
bah.
DIVX.
MVE must be the crappiest movie encoder since flic.... :D :p
Do you need to pay any liscence to encode "commercial" movies in DivX? I know that you can use the encoder for free when you're not making any profits...
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Make a demo.
Then worry about whether you have to figure out the legal stuff.
Till you make a demo, it's all vapourware.
I'd suggest demoing it in an established engine, quickest route to getting something playable. While I don;t agree with Descent 4's choice of Crystal Space, if you are HALF the programmer you think you are, you should be able to get something playable out of it in relatively short order. That gives you something to show, proof some of your playability thoughts, while you code your own engine.
But coding an engine THEN making a game out of it is ALOT of work. I went the "license" approach and shelled out the 100 bucks for Torque, so I didn't have to start from the ground up while learning the game related stuff. Better documentaion, more full featured engine (out of the "box"), already cross platform. Another good engine, that can have playable stuff in weeks, buys you time to code your own or come up with the design documentation, or whatever.
Demo, then hard core code. The D4 people did some concept stuff using the D3 engine. That was one thing I think they did right, got something playable in peoples hands quickly.
Watch the "god" complex, and good luck.
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Originally posted by Kazan
In light of recent events I beleive it is time for.
The FreeSpace Forever Project to be started.
FreeSpace Forever is a new engine for the FreeSpace 2, using the same datafiles [or as close to them as possible... damn MVE copyright] that will be cross-platform, and naturally have more capabilities than the origional.
We all know that I cannot write this alone, I don't even know where to begin on optimized OpenGL programming. So Progammers UNITE, let's bring new life to our beloved FreeSpace.
[never saw it coming after my last VBB thread did ya?] [/B]
I want to help.
As far as legal issues are concerned, techinically as long as we dont market it and try to make $$$$$ of it we're good. This is something we as a community must do in order to ensure the survival of Freespace. As Cliffe (the lead programmer of Counter-Strike) did, he not only brought a modification beloved by thousands of fans, but the company also hired and licsensed the mod!!!!!!!!
so who is Volition or intercrap or THQ to say we can't "HELP" them make there "games" LAST LONGER THAN 2-3 od' years on average?
Kaazan, e-mail me @ [email protected] ; i can let you know what capabilities I have to help assist this great undertaking!;) ;) ;)
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an0n's guide to avoiding copyright infringement
- The game will have no references to anything even remotely FS
- The game will consist of flying blocks and spheres that shoot kittens a each other
- The game will have extreme MODability enabling people to create ships, missions, interface art and sounds that can be imported into the game by some means (;7)
- Screw MVE
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Originally posted by an0n
an0n's guide to avoiding copyright infringement
- The game will have no references to anything even remotely FS
- The game will consist of flying blocks and spheres that shoot kittens a each other
- The game will have extreme MODability enabling people to create ships, missions, interface art and sounds that can be imported into the game by some means (;7)
- Screw MVE
[/B]
OK, thats it!:headz: hahahahhahahahaahh funniest thing i ever heard.........i acutally had a tear come down my eye............;7
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Womp?
Kazan, you do realise that by doing this you'll be making all the newbies who screamed 'We can make our own FS' completely right, don't you?
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Originally posted by an0n
Womp?
Kazan, you do realise that by doing this you'll be making all the newbies who screamed 'We can make our own FS' completely right, don't you?
Deep Eyes= Not a newbie. with-all-due respect i got a lil-hyped.
i've been playing both games and moding them since 1998. thats almost 5 years. although my presence here has been limited and slow to comunity standards, i am far from a newbie.:mad:
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Im not sure - you'd have to email one of their team but i'm sure there'd be no problem.
They love people using their codec, £50 or something and you got a license (or whatever, i dunno)
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Originally posted by deep_eyes
Deep Eyes= Not a newbie. with-all-due respect i got a lil-hyped.
i've been playing both games and moding them since 1998. thats almost 5 years. although my presence here has been limited and slow to comunity standards, i am far from a newbie.:mad:
I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm presuming you posted something like that either here or at the VBB and I missed it.
*remembers Jabu's teachings.....vaguely*
Newbie=Retard
newbie=new, inexperienced or not yet had spirit crushed by corporate whoreism
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Originally posted by deep_eyes
As far as legal issues are concerned, techinically as long as we dont market it and try to make $$$$$ of it we're good.
yeah right.
Ever heard about Alien Quake?
CounterStrike is not a relevant exemple, modding was encouraged by valve, and CS doesn't refere to any existing universe or anything and therefore had no legal issue to worry about.
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i said what i said in responce to u going to kazaan, "do u know every newbie..." etc etc. if this wasnt directed at me my fault for jumping off the deep end like that. but if it was thats why i said what i said. anyway lets try to stay on the topic and not degrade someone just for saying a word of joy.........:doh:
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That would be sw33t if you could pull it off. But wouldn't it be really hard to create an entirely new game engine?
*goes back to rendering*
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*cough*Avenger*cough*
*fires flak cannons at pursuing forumites while dodging the HOJ's beam weapons and jumps to the safety of subspace*
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Originally posted by Thunder
Intresting.... pull this off and I'll take my hat off to you and apologise for the name calling. However aren't there copyright issues to think about?
yes there are - but only when it comes to MVE - and since we don't charge for it Volition won't care that we use their file formats - vps and pofs
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Both would need tweaking..i take it we'd be aiming for something slightly more visually complex than FS2?
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It might be an idea to just use .3ds models and have all the gun data and engine colour and stuff in TXT files, for easyness.
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We'll af for managing this project I don't know - i would prefer someone better at management than me to do the managing, i just want to be in there influencing coding decisions - like I want to use object oriented programming to do it [C++ is suprisingly faster than C actually... from all the benchmarking i've seen]
I invite, even beg, all programmers, even one's I've fought with to join in
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Originally posted by an0n
It might be an idea to just use .3ds models and have all the gun data and engine colour and stuff in TXT files, for easyness.
no, not 3ds, max or LW, but not 3ds, there's no hierarchy support in that format would make the things too complex...
actually, Gmax would be the best choice, coz everybody can get it.
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Hmmmm. Gmax compatability might work. Can't really use MAX or LW coz then you get the same problem with TS where people have to either get pirate versions or ****ty-ass demos to save the right file format.
Although if there was a MAX+LW+TS to POF V3 converter.........
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If you can actually get this up and running I would be happy to help, but the project seems way too ambitious at least to me. (it would probably take less work to somehow disassemble the FS2 files and expand upon those instead)
We'll af for managing this project I don't know - i would prefer someone better at management than me to do the managing, i just want to be in there influencing coding decisions - like I want to use object oriented programming to do it [C++ is suprisingly faster than C actually... from all the benchmarking i've seen
Use Mathematica; fastest and most powerful progamming language I have seen yet. :D
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Hm I don't know!
Sounds good, but I can't help. :(
Anyway, good luck :)
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I have the code to directly support COB and POF modles [since PCS's internal compiler can zap through a COB so fast that it can be an insignificant gap of time in mission loading, and i can extend the extended higharchy even further]
other file formats wil have to come later on - all that I can say know is will need atleast 1 generic "Game Model" object - and the POF is perfectly suited - so all other file's support will be made into POFs - either with external conversion or internal conversion
unless someone who is more knowledgable in game implementation than I has a better idea, which im sure someone will
but remember - we want this to be perfectly able to import the origional freespace 2 files
Features I want:
support for "Mod VP"s and "Mod Data Dirs" indexed by files - ie the "Base game" has the default index file, and you can switch mods in game on the fly with a screen - even on a mission by missions basis [multiplayer mods anyone?!
Low-orbit around planets [terrain skimming like in Wing Commander 3]
Of course fancier models, backgrounds, lighting effects, etc. etc.
Oh - and the reason for the OOP - with object oriented design I see it easier to isolate platform-specific code, so we can more easily have it both on windows and linux [and if someone's really smart using GLUT [GL Utility Kit] for OpenGL, a cross-platform way of opening an OpenGL window, and the rest of the OpenGL calls are generic we can have ONE CODEBASE!]
man... this is going to be a -massive- project
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Try to put in some kind of code modding ability so modules can be added to the game to, for instance, add extra internal converting capacity/range or change the flight physics.
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well don't tell me.. wait until we get a board of programmers lined up, and we're done putting down intial features, then we'll be all ears.
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Ok, then, go download Crystal Space and see what you are getting into, it's open source.
Most engines that are out there are C++, so I wouldn't worry to much about doing something that is NOT object oriented ;)
The way the Torque engine works is they have some base C++ code and the expose ALOT of it to scripting, so, almost everything gets done in scripts 9which get compiled at runtime, so they end up being compiled code) and the scripting language is relatively easy to figure out. They have there own file format, but models start out as MAX or COB or 3DS or whatever and get run thru an exporter. Then you write a little supporting script and bang, you have your ship in the game world like so:
http://forums.shatteredstar.com/user-cgi/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000120
and so:
http://forums.shatteredstar.com/user-cgi/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000099
There is also that "Nebula Device" thing, which, I hear decent things about.
Anyway, grab an engine (I have posted several times on free and low cost engines) and look at the codebase. See what it is you are suggesting that we create from scratch. Maybe even eval them and see if you can get a head start.
Making games is a fun hobby, but's its a crapload of work ;)
Don't worry about copyrights till you have something to worry about.
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Hey, Very cool idea :)
BTW: I believe that GMAX had converters to convert to DXF or Max formats. DXF is compatible with Truespace, which is convertable to pof....
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Blah, burn it to the ground and start anew. That's my opinion, you don't need to saddle yourself with all the preexisting FS foibles.
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how about .XSI ?
thats a nice and more importantly open-sourced format.
you can get exporters for it for MAX and Maya as far as i'm aware, deep exploration supports it plus you get hierarchies, NLA animation, RT hardware shaders and all that jazz.
check it out, might be a good idea?
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Start with something you know.
If people are serious, I STRONGLY encourage you to grab a copy of an open source game engine :)
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Originally posted by wEvil
how about .XSI ?
thats a nice and more importantly open-sourced format.
you can get exporters for it for MAX and Maya as far as i'm aware, deep exploration supports it plus you get hierarchies, NLA animation, RT hardware shaders and all that jazz.
check it out, might be a good idea?
not really, imho... I don't see the point of using a format nobody could work directly with...
to me the best format is GMAX, coz everybody can get Gmax for free, you have loads of tuts for it, it's very easy to learn if you take it seriously, many games are/will support it ( so big mesh and texture sources available on the net ), it is designed specificaly for modding, supports animations, hierarchy, scripting, etc etc etc. Discreet is providing a free, powerfull modding tool, why not using it?
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I'd say something about all this file format thing, but I won't. I'll keep it to myself, and use it to take over the world when the time comes...
:D
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.XSI is superior to GMAX is many, many ways.
and as i posted above, its also way more open source than gmax
and as for supported features, no friggen competition.
just check it out, thats all i'm asking anyone to do at this stage.
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Originally posted by wEvil
.XSI is superior to GMAX is many, many ways.
and as i posted above, its also way more open source than gmax
and as for supported features, no friggen competition.
just check it out, thats all i'm asking anyone to do at this stage.
How do I convert .MAX/.3DS to .XSI, without using 3DE?
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Okay details: GMAX has import scripts for DXF and 3DS (and quake files and such) but I don't think export is possible also I think you need a license to have your game support the GMAX format....
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Originally posted by Ryx
How do I convert .MAX/.3DS to .XSI, without using 3DE?
Deep Exploration
softimage have released a plugin for 3dsmax that exports to .XSI on sourceforge.
Im not sure about other formats...ill post something on highend3d.com , see what they soft guys say.
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I do know some OGL in C++ so I would be willing to help. (if the thing gets off the ground)
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Kazan, I can't program, but I'll help any way I can....
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if you like to help send me an email with the subject "FreeSpace Forever"
as for using existing code - how about not
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Originally posted by wEvil
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softimage have released a plugin for 3dsmax that exports to .XSI on sourceforge.
...
Downloading now. :)
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Downloading now....
for those that can't find it (http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/dotxsi4max/dotXSI4Max425_v13_bin.zip)
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Kazan, I might be able to help you with animations but I'd have to get my hands on the FS models in .3ds format.
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At the very least, looking at an existing engines source gives you some idea of the magnitude of the task ;) You're a programmer, at the very least you can criticize it and find ways to do it better.
Lots of stuff goes into an engne, there's the model rendering, the environment rendering. The collision. The the control scheme, the netplay, client server stuff, all the goodies.
Then there's the datafile format of the missions, any scripting support (unless you do it all in code, which means you need a different overall skillset in developers). If it's an existing engine, there may even be a way for level designers to start doing POC's and model builders to start having polycount guidelines, yada yada yada.
Just look at it, you don't have to use it.
If you're serious, that's my advice. I went from nothing to playable in a commerical engine in very short order. Adding gameplay elements via script is what's killing me and taking time, mostly because I am just doing this for the fun of it, not because I have a design document. And I am just adding things to learn various parts of the engine itself.
Buy versus build ;) Always faster to buy and customize, starting from scratch can be painful. Especially if you go with something open source, you can change everything, including the rendering engine, without having to redo other parts. Difference between a mod and a standalone game :)
Give me 2 weeks and I'll be able to make a better comparison between what's free, what costs a little (like Torque) and what costs 10grand (about to start working on a project that uses Lithtech, disks in the mail, project is funded, engine is liscensed, just waiting for the "go").
I guess I should make a point, get ready for a LONG post ;)
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You/we/whatever need a plan.
Gotta start with a scope: How much do you want to do?
Package evaluation: Use an existing engine? Write one from scratch? Hybrid? What gets us a game that we WANT to play in the shortest amount of time? What kind of user supported dev do we want? IS everything in code? Are the levels done in Max? Do we want to write our own editor? Do we want to go with an existing model format? How fast do we want it? How fast do we think we could do it? You get the picture, half of the work is figuring out what the right questions are.
Then you move into some kind of design phase: Now you know what you want to do, and possibly what tools, possibly the timeframe. Now you do technical design and game design. That encompasses alot. Need to figure out what the game is about, what kind of game play. That "functional design" needs to be mirrored in the technical design, you're already favoring OpenGL, does that limit you in any way? If you have a new model format, what are it's specs? What kind of information does another programmer need to know about it to write an exporter? The level editor, what kind of files does it save, etc? The scripting (if any) support, does that engine need to be developed from scratch? What C++ functions do we want to expose to scripting? How much control do we want to allow the script engine? Netplay? TCP? UDP? Session state of the clients tracked at the client, on the server? Both? Do we have coding guidelines, will comments be handled in the same way throughout. Will someone review the code before comitting it ot a build? Source control? HOW will builds get done? Are there Acceptance criteria for modules? Basically, you take any lists you determined in a scoping excercise and you describe in detail those elements, every element you can think of, writing psuedo code to describe the process if needed. Do flow charts. Mockup GUI in photoshop, POC models in 3ds or whatever, probably concept art for future models
Then, and only then, do you start real coding. Sure, during scope and design, you're probably writing test harnesses and POC's, psuedo code, mockup or even partially functional screens. Now you are in the Development phase. You did all the REALLY hard parts in Design, now you implement it. Code the engine (or modify it). Build the models and levels for testing, and placeholder while the artists go out and do real models, build the guis in layered photoshop so the programmer just has to cut and paste elements, follow the flowcharts. Implementing is the easy part if you've done the homework. You'll probably revisit the design several times. Count on it. Count on it changing some too. Somethings that look great on paper just end up taking 5 times as long as they need to and either need yanked, or redesigned.
Then, Testing. Both ongoing unit testing by individual programmers of there individual modules while coding them, and system testing, where you start stringing modules together. Bug reporting, priority. Fixing. SOme of this can be going on while other parts are still being coded. Say you finish the SP experience you can test that, the model importing and the map making while still working on the net stuff. Eventually, you'll have something you can public alpha, then beta, then....
Release, and expect to need to patch as a whole NEW group of people encounter your code.
I have not missed a deadline in 3 years. That methodology up there is how we deliver multi million dollar software engagements.
Never come into a problem without a possible solution ;)
Resume and references available on request.
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well i sugest kazaan that you set out a search for programers and moders to undertake this massive project. like u said. another word, which u probrably thought bout, we all might end up welcoming the last of the VBB members and the VW staff who some work here, or comment on these boreds and utilize there skills to assit u in this. we all as a community i think got our own skills and we all would like to help u out (sorta like the LINUX community).;7
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Ok...I'm still in the learning phase of C++, and am currently playing around with directdraw (read: trying to figure how the hell to use it because M$ 'forgot' directdraw help in the SDK's help). I wish to be of some assistance, but I am still learning. Give me a few months and I might be as 1337 a programmer as Kaz.
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Hey, Kazan what I suggest is assemble a management division to keep the programmers in check - like a professional company. It'll help keep deadlines, keep it realistic etc...
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If you need someone to work on the site, I can help with that :D :nod:
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* thinks of just how many times such things were started... *
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A few, I'd say. But this should be interesting to see.
As for the model format thing, I know what I favor. :D
Dammit, are you ever on ICQ any more? I gotta talk to you....
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I could help ya whit the cinametics and interface art....
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If this is going to be something serious, then I'll offer any help with main story arc, concepts, etc. for a main FS-expansion campaign done with this engine.
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DirectX won't be our prefered renderer - we'll prefabbly use OpenGL because then GLUT package could theorectically allow us to write _one_ GUI and have it work on linux and windows
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good ideas inqui
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dude, that would be awesome if you could do this, unfortunately, i can't help much. I can only offer a few suggestions:
-use pofs for models
-use pcx for textures
-create a program similar to fred2 to create the missions for the new engine (or just support the fs2 and fc2 formats)
-make the engine modable through use of ini files, this way people can add to the engine's capabilities. In fact, i suggest you rely as much on inis as possible and make the engine itself just a program capable of reading and executing whatever the inis tell it to do.
-use a format like vp that allows files to be neatly packaged and still read by the engine without unpacking (if you can do this with the zip format, that would be even better).
I have no idea how many of these are feasible, but these are suggestions for changes i would want to make could i write such a thing.
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Narol: the intention is to have it be -perfectly- compatable with the previous game engine, or as close to it as possible
ie - install, drop new executeable [perhaps a few additional files in] and you'll have it running
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Originally posted by Kazan
yes there are - but only when it comes to MVE - and since we don't charge for it Volition won't care that we use their file formats - vps and pofs
Yea....get that in writting and legally noterized.
Or even IF they've said "oh yea sure have fun" a year from now it's a lawsuit and you get the shaft.
Copyrights can be interesting things you know. And you can't claim a rebuilt game engine as a MOD really.
Besides....Volition can't legally allow dick...it's NOT their game...it belongs to Interplay ...hence the entire no FS3 , no source, no story details.
IF it was up to V...we wouldn't NEED to rebuild anything...they said they WANTED to give us the source code.
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So perhaps you should make the game "understand" vps and whatnot and "use" entirely different data types ;)
That would prevent lawsuits, no?
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Originally posted by Kamikaze
So perhaps you should make the game "understand" vps and whatnot and "use" entirely different data types ;)
That would prevent lawsuits, no?
Hmm no
Herc 2 ...copyrighted
Vp...Copyrighted
the ENTIRE game is copyrighted.
Now you could make a new engine that has completely unrelated ships, weapons, effects, storyline, etc etc and be safe....but then what would be the point eh?
Honestly I think this is WAY too big of a project for anyone here....when we see a game campaign and or mod that can't get completed ...how could we think an entire rebuilding of the game itself would ever be finished?
(Not directed at ANY specific campaign or mod...but we all have seen several just fade out)
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Originally posted by Warlock
Honestly I think this is WAY too big of a project for anyone here....when we see a game campaign and or mod that can't get completed ...how could we think an entire rebuilding of the game itself would ever be finished?
(Not directed at ANY specific campaign or mod...but we all have seen several just fade out)
Agreed. Many that haven't even faded out have lost their track and have slowed to a standstill. They aren't moving anywhere fast. This project is definitely too big for anybody seeing as how we can't finish most of out campaigns. Maybe if we could all physically get together to work on it it would be okay, but we can't so I doubt this would work.
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pessimism gets us nowhere
Volition doesn't care if we use their file formats, as long as credit is given
intergay is almost non-existant, and why would they bother - the game was released in 1999, it's 2002 - as far as they're concerned the game is dead
This game has become Abondonware
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Originally posted by Kazan
pessimism gets us nowhere
Volition doesn't care if we use their file formats, as long as credit is given
intergay is almost non-existant, and why would they bother - the game was released in 1999, it's 2002 - as far as they're concerned the game is dead
This game has become Abondonware
*cough* Titus *cough*
Abandonware? Freespace and 2 are still commercial!
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well, it wouldnt hurt to make the engine more modable in terms of capabilities if you can stick in addons and make the engine capable of doing something it couldnt do before. What if the day after the engine is released you find a better way to do say explosions, where you can actually sequence them. Instead of completely redoing the engine, wouldnt it be nice if you can just stick in a dll or ini?
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Narol: like i said, wait until latter for that kind of thing - the project needs a programming staff, a webspace, and a coordinator first
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Originally posted by Kazan
Narol: like i said, wait until latter for that kind of thing - the project needs a programming staff, a webspace, and a coordinator first
I vote you for coordinator, and im pretty sure HLP will host you. As for staff...
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Any objections if I move this to gen FS?
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Well tell ya what. yall do what ya want ok ?
I merely suggested not GUESSING about legal issues. No disrespect intended but very VERY few ppl here know the exact details of copyrights.
If you feel since the game is 4 years old the copyright is null and void...hehe...sure thing...have fun...don't get caught.
And as far as Interplay being bout to crash and burn....you think that would make them decide not to take legal action? hehe ok
check around ppl. Lucas did the same to several online Star wars costume groups for making Stormtrooper armor.
Sadly thou it merely takes a phone call to a lawer and a quick question to fnd out for sure yet I'll lay odds NOONE actually does it.
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As far as a web staff, I can help out. It's probably a good idea to have someone else as coordinator, because they'll be the person keeping the project going-coders WILL[/i][/u] be needed for the engine work.
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It's perfectly plausable to create a better file type than POF and as a lot of you know POF has been a major pain in the arse as far as editing/converting etc. The very need to first build the model (or at least convert it) in COB format, a filetype that requires the use of a poor, expensive and outdated modelling program is what's stopped this community from releasing models at a greater rate.
If you need proof look at the Starlancer modelling community, they convert straight from MAX, a widely supported format. Anyone from your average modder with Blender to someone fully kitted out with 3DSmax or Lightwave can create and texture a model for Starlancer. As a result they have a massive library of models that you can quickly and easily import into the game.
Go with what the greater number of people can use. It's not just common sense, it's essential if this project is to be popular.
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I'd object, on the basis that the GenFS forum has less posts, and this isn't just Freespace.
EDIT: And I mean less posts usually means less visitors
But that's just me :nervous:
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Originally posted by Warlock
the ENTIRE game is copyrighted.
Now you could make a new engine that has completely unrelated ships, weapons, effects, storyline, etc etc and be safe....but then what would be the point eh?
It should be pointed out, in case it hasn't been already, that there's no grounds for a lawsuit if the engine stands alone.
IE, lets just say Kazan drinks a lot of coffee this weekend and busts out KazanSpace, revolutionary new 3d space sim engine that is completely moddable and understands the data file formats for some random game, say, Independence War 2 (not a stretch: every format in the game save for the PSOs is a public standard, and PS doesn't mind us reverse engineering it if we want. So says the programming team, speaking on behalf of Infogrammes). Now, we can't redistribute ANY Iwar2 data. We can, however distribute the engine as long as we say its not supported by Infogrammes, Particle Systems or Bob and you use it at your own risk. Those of us who OWN Iwar2 can use our resource.zip file to play. Everyone else has to collect modded campaigns or whatever.
Its not copyright violation if you don't distribute copyrighted materials. If you write a program (say... oh, PCS) that groks Interplay/Volition's file formats, that's okay. You'll be using your own engine to access files you already have the right to access (from your bought copy of Freespace2). Its legit.
As for things never getting finished, I resemble that remark. I still owe Venom an Arcadia and several other people models. :D
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Originally posted by mikhael
As for things never getting finished, I resemble that remark. I still owe Venom an Arcadia and several other people models. :D
*raises hand*
:P
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Originally posted by Warlock
*raises hand*
:P
Should I just put together a work queue form on 404error.com, so I can keep track what I owe to whom? :lol:
Which model do I owe you again, Warlock?
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You were going to take a stab at that Shivan Mega Destroyer for me :)
After like 500 other guys in line ahead of me of course :lol:
BTW I thought Venom had his Arcadia in FS2 already ?
Still would KILL to get my greedy hands on her :D LOL
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Originally posted by Warlock
You were going to take a stab at that Shivan Mega Destroyer for me :)
OH YEAH! :D I'm actually working on two Shivan supercaps right now.
BTW I thought Venom had his Arcadia in FS2 already ?
I'm doing it for I-war2. :D The geometry is kicking my tail in some places. Its the conversion, not Venom's fault. He did an excellent job modelling her.
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What's this? Topic derailing!?
"All units! Terminate the traitor."
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Just remember the one big thing this one HAS to have....if you forgot I can ICQ you the info again when you need it :)
and I STILL want that Arcadia :D lol
[drool]
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Originally posted by Warlock
Just remember the one big thing this one HAS to have....if you forgot I can ICQ you the info again when you need it :)
Well get on ICQ then! ;)
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Been on ICQ since 7pm :D LMAO
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Warlock:
1. By the time that this gets finished, Interplay will gbe dead and gone. No issues there.
2. The FreeSpace franchise is, at the moment, worthless. Lucas coulda made money selling royalties to corporations willing to make their own storm trooper armor, but nobody would buy if they could make it on their own. However, nobody's planning on selling royalties or making FreeSpace right now, except for us on the latter. Suing us would be trying to get blood from turnips anyhow, even ignoring the fact that, since this community exists entirely online, it would take one hell of an effort to track us all down. More of an effort than anyone's gonna take right now.
However, we really should as Volition if they mind first. Just to be decent, at the very least. Even when people have no monetary interest in their stuff, they still like to have some control over what happens to it. I should know... :mad:
3. Abandonware- the term means essentially 'technically illegal, but who's gonna stop us?'. It applies.
4. People have gotten away with much more patently illegal violations before. Know how often warez rings get busted- the dudes the pigs are actually interested in, as opposed to rentacops with no equipment or interest in getting the job done? And half of them hand out calling cards left and right that would enable, say, ME to infiltrate and get them, no prob.
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I'm willing to help by any means possible. Meaning by any means that involves my 3D graphics suite or non-programming work.
How 'bout we follow something more like the I-War format, where the model is actually the same type used by the native 3D modeller, with a table file type thing on the side? Seems to provide more versatility, anyway. Yeah, I'll shut up about anything on the programming end now. Give it reeeeeeally high poly limits, and the ability to dock ingam- *smack*
:D
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1. By the time that this gets finished, Interplay will gbe dead and gone. No issues there.
2. The FreeSpace franchise is, at the moment, worthless. Lucas coulda made money selling royalties to corporations willing to make their own storm trooper armor, but nobody would buy if they could make it on their own. However, nobody's planning on selling royalties or making FreeSpace right now, except for us on the latter. Suing us would be trying to get blood from turnips anyhow, even ignoring the fact that, since this community exists entirely online, it would take one hell of an effort to track us all down. More of an effort than anyone's gonna take right now.
However, we really should as Volition if they mind first. Just to be decent, at the very least. Even when people have no monetary interest in their stuff, they still like to have some control over what happens to it. I should know... :mad:
3. Abandonware- the term means essentially 'technically illegal, but who's gonna stop us?'. It applies.
4. People have gotten away with much more patently illegal violations before. Know how often warez rings get busted- the dudes the pigs are actually interested in, as opposed to rentacops with no equipment or interest in getting the job done? And half of them hand out calling cards left and right that would enable, say, ME to infiltrate and get them, no prob.
Completely agree here. :yes::yes:
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Don't worry about the copyrights until you have something that works. Keep em in mind, but try getting a little further down the glidepath before you kill the project due to poorly understood legal issues. Those things kill you when you start handing the software out, and by then you will have decided whether something like this is worth pursuing.
And be careful with any legal advice, unless you have your law degree ;)
As for the ability of the "people here" do do this sort of thing, I disagree. I think you guys can, you just have to "DO" it.
Kazan has already started thinking about the scope of this endeavor, what he sees as the end result (dropping a new exe, maybe some new files) and while I am not sure that is a viable approach, that is certainly an approach.
I'm not sure he's the man for the "coordinator" position, I'm not sure who is, gotta find someone who has pulled off a mod, start to finish, maybe that's him, maybe not. Find someone who's read "Rapid Development" or go out and read it ;)
Get more stuff on paper, as it were. Scope the project. Think about the goals, think about how much work you want ot and CAN do. Kazan can certainly do some of that, he's got the start of the idea here, just needs to be written down in one coherent place. Then you have at least a straw man to kick around and punch holes in, and something to approach other people with to "sell them" on it to join the team other than "gee, wouldn't it be great if we made a video game like Freespace?" Once it's on paper (some of Narols stuff, for instance) you can start determining the feasibility of those technical challenges. Etc. See above for an overall approach.
Right now it's all mental masterbation.
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Originally posted by Warlock
You were going to take a stab at that Shivan Mega Destroyer for me :)
After like 500 other guys in line ahead of me of course :lol:
BTW I thought Venom had his Arcadia in FS2 already ?
Still would KILL to get my greedy hands on her :D LOL
yeah, if I'm not mistaken, I'm the 1st one on the list :D
bah, my FS2 arcadia has something stuck in the barrels of it's turrets: they follow the target, rotate and all, bu no, they won't fire, they won't want, they don't like me, ME! they betrayed their creator, they...
Yeah, I want her for Iwar2, coz in FS2 I can't fly this almighty ship :D And I want to use it to... play the pirate mwahahaha.
back on topic, well, for now, i'll just look at what happens... Sounds very ambitious to me, but time will tell, after all.
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There are two very valid points at looking at this.
1. There is little point in attempting a project that will probably never be completed... we have tiny campaigns and other projects that have not been finished. Believing that a project of this magnitude could be finished is ludicrous... and so no time should be wasted on trying.
2. If we give up before we even start, we we don't even have a chance to achieve anything. We have nothing to lose but a yet-unknown amount of time and effort... and we certainly have a great pool of skill to draw from.[/b]
Like I said, both are valid... I was going to say something, but it just flew out of my mind. ;) It'll come back to me soon, but make what you want of those two statements... knowing that both hold a great deal of truth in them and one can be correct while the other can remain valid also.
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warlock im quite aware of the legal issues, im also quite aware that Interplay has a "don't talk about freespace 2" rule amoung their employees apparently - they don't care
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First, I apologize for not reading all four(?) pages, so please don't flame me if this has been said/asked before...
As many of you know, there is Babylon 5 Freeware game under development. It is very impressive engine. "I've Found Her"-team is soon releasing a demo, so the engine is quite ready.
Why don't you contact them and ask if they could help you in some ways?
Unfortunately The Gaming Union forums seems to be down, but visit them later: http://www.thegamingunion.co.uk/Forum/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi
And of course IFH homepage is here:
http://ifh.firstones.com/
IFH engine is gonna rock! :nod:
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Originally posted by Setekh
There are two very valid points at looking at this.
1. There is little point in attempting a project that will probably never be completed... we have tiny campaigns and other projects that have not been finished. Believing that a project of this magnitude could be finished is ludicrous... and so no time should be wasted on trying.
2. If we give up before we even start, we we don't even have a chance to achieve anything. We have nothing to lose but a yet-unknown amount of time and effort... and we certainly have a great pool of skill to draw from.[/COLOR]
Like I said, both are valid... I was going to say something, but it just flew out of my mind. ;) It'll come back to me soon, but make what you want of those two statements... knowing that both hold a great deal of truth in them and one can be correct while the other can remain valid also. [/B]
Remember Cold Legacy? ;)
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Originally posted by Mr. Fury
Why don't you contact them and ask if they could help you in some ways?
That's actually the most sensible idea I heard on this topic... :nod:
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Interesting idea actually, the engine certanily looks good - why not give it a go? At worst they'll say "no".
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Crystal Space:
http://crystal.sourceforge.net/
I tried an earlier version of it, wasn't happy with the state it was in, but I hear it's improved in the last year, haven't tried to build this version.
Descent IV (http://www.descent4.net) is using it, another team who's brain might need picking.
Nebula Device:
http://www.radonlabs.de/whatis.html
I hear there are problems compiling this with .NET and I have not actually played with it either.
Fly3D
http://www.fly3d.com.br/
This came with a textbook on the subject, interesting to play with, modular, good learning experience, not sure if it's up to making a full game.
Torque:
http://www.garagegames.com
I love this thing, unlike the others, it is not free (100 bucks, 2 video games worth of money), but it's powerful, easy to work with, great support from the developers and the community and basically alot of fun. The links to the screenshots I posted above are of my personal "chat room with guns" project done in TQ.
Other engines of note out there to look at:
Descent 1 and 2
http://d1x.warpcore.org/
http://shelob.classrooms.washington.edu/d2x/
Interesting to see an old engine that does the ship thing, neat to poke around in.
Quake2:
http://www.bluesnews.com/files/idstuff/source/quake2.shtml
Learn from Carmack ;) Old, but again neat to poke thru.
Various ports of Doom and Wolfenstein3D (people have turned Doom into an openGL game, also just academically intresting, look at http://www.doomworld.com for links).
Obviously the older engines aren't for making the game in, but provide a good point of reference and learning experience. The first 3 or 4 might be worth looking at, if nothing else to see modern (and in some cases, cross platform) engines at work.
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Originally posted by Styxx
That's actually the most sensible idea I heard on this topic... :nod:
Thank you. :)
Originally posted by Thunder
Interesting idea actually, the engine certanily looks good - why not give it a go? At worst they'll say "no".
Definitely. If they agrees you don't have to worry about building a new engine. You can help them to develop it further and same time modify it for Freespace style (non-newtonian physics).
Only drawback would be that IFH-engine probably does not support Volition's file types at all, like .vp files. So you'll need to convert them, it shouldn't be too hard when compared to making a new engine from scratch.
At very least, asking won't hurt you. Even if they won't give the source code of IFH-engine, they may still help you in other ways. They surely have experience in that area.
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Originally posted by Mr. Fury
At very least, asking won't hurt you. Even if they won't give the source code of IFH-engine, they may still help you in other ways. They surely have experience in that area.
That's true. All you people wanting to do this: go there, ask them, and then tell us what they replied. :)
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Just realized something.
You can grab the core of the Torque engine (not the C++, just a precompiled binary) and get an idea for what it can do at:
http://www.garagegames.com click on "Realm Wars" it's 5 megs. I THINK that if you have that, and tribes 2, you can follow some public tutorials for getting flying vehicles working.
Otherwise, if you are feeling brave and have the bandwidth, you can grab my personal, "I am messing around" 30 meg build at http://www.shatteredstar.com/friendlyfire
Same core tech, I've done some things to the exe. The bulk of that I would say took me 3-4 months of work, with a LONG break after Christmas, and based on work I had done for a professional paper I presented at GSA last November (so i had a head start), GSA build is here:
http://www.deckersds.com/endeavor
The script language is educational in and of itself. Any of those builds should give you some sense for things and the garagegames site is full of info.
Not advocating Torque, just arming you with as much information as possible.
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Wow...there seems to be some interest. Are you guys prepared to dig in for the long haul and try and make it work? I'm sure all sorts of projects would benefit but this is going to be alot of blood sweat and tears. More blood sweat and tears than TBP ever was....and I've spent more time on that thing than anything else.
I wish you guys luck.
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very good points people-
hey HLPBB admins, perhaps we should get a forum up for this with the kind of traffic I forsee being generated.
As for a new file type to replace pof - i agree that is a viable option, but we really need Eternal One, because I don't quite grok BSP splits - i figured out how to generate adquetally compliant data for the POF BSP/IDTA but I really need to grok that kind of information... this project is going to require me to learn a lot about 3d programming. As for the alternative file types - that is a great idea, infact my idea for that is
All supported data types can go in the data tree or vps for the engine, the engine then auotmatically compile those models each time they're changed [UTIME compaired against the compiled version] and places them in a temp dir.
Mods can be switched on-the-fly on a mission-by-mission basis - by the data tables only be loaded into memory in the pre-mission loading, instead of at engine startup like volition does, with the origional engine. This will allow there to be multiplayer mods that automatically switch, you can have multiple data structures at a time - ie the directories are "data" for the main data, "babylon5" for the babylon 5 mod, "Derelict" for derelict, and so on. The mods can also have vps - the data tree and the associated vps are listed in "mod data files" in the main directory - and the default vps can be loaded, or completely overwritten - or you can load one vp with the customizations, then load the normal vp with all the other data [the first VP loaded owns the file, occurances in later vps are ignored]
I would like to raise the polys that can be in a scene, and even make missions where you skim terrain [that will require some huge terrain models], with fog, etc, other atmospheric effects
I naturally want new effects, new weapon types, etc.
With the documentation you could design an entirely new game, will all fresh data. We're just writing a new engine, with knew capabilities - just because it groks Volitions VP and POF files doesn't make it illegal, groking MVE would though - because Volition doesn't care about the VP and POF types, but Intergay [Titus now is it?] cares about MVE - some anonymous programmer could make a 'contraband' converter from MVE to like DivX mpeg for the cutscenes and make it a 'add-in module' for the engine, not official endorsed by the developement team.... aren't loopholes lovely
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I still think something based off the .XSI format would give you greater flexiblility..specially seeing as its a relatively new way of doing things.
It also removes headaches of model compatibility etc.
Using the existing FS2 tools would be a little difficult. I could never work out how to get anything into FS2 from MAX - there were just so many things to go wrong that it wasnt worth my while.
As far as polycount goes..well, since you're going OpenGL the graphics card ICD handles the T&L support so you can go up to 50,000 onscreen with top-end cards at a reasonable framerate.
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that will require some huge terrain models
[raises hand]
Carrara up! Want 'em in 3DS, COB, LWO, or something else altogether?:D
Of course, I suppose that is the million-dollar question at the instant...
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I don't know a thing about programing but I have one thing to say. please let people with older cards play this . (whenever it will coem out. im betting 2595)
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Ah yes, the ever present "system requirements."
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Originally posted by Kazan
hey HLPBB admins, perhaps we should get a forum up for this with the kind of traffic I forsee being generated.
Not yet, untill you have something concrete or a webpage of some sort for hosting all conversations on this can be confined to this thread or similar. Right now all this is discussion, get something of substance done and we'll take a look at hosting, websites, forums and so on.
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yeah.. there will naturally be "level of detail" considerations
as for the file formats you keep talking about - the compilers will take care of it - native support for modeling environement formats - WON'T WORK, the data would have to be converted to a BSP format of some type - so even if the converter is internal to the engine, it'll still be converted to some game data format
then the question would also be - how do you automatically convert the file type and have all the game data like firepoints, docs, etc
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Use TXT files to designate all the guns and stuff.
Or some kind of inbuilt ModView where you can import any model format, add all the stuff and it'll save it as something useable and add it to the game data files.
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Originally posted by Thunder
Not yet, untill you have something concrete or a webpage of some sort for hosting all conversations on this can be confined to this thread or similar. Right now all this is discussion, get something of substance done and we'll take a look at hosting, websites, forums and so on.
HLP won't be hosting the website, i depise gamespy's servers
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Originally posted by an0n
Use TXT files to designate all the guns and stuff.
use "ship table files" to load from.. that was an idea.... i don't particularly care for it, but it is an idea
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Ideally, the model file will be POF if it can't be native. PCS was nice, but but without modelview's grpahical display, I'm sorry to say it was next to useless for the non-math-minded (me in particular), and a similar prog would be no fun to play with.
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i _was_ working on a graphical display until i moved over to linux.. I haven't yet learned KDE GUI programming
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Ah. That's all right, then.
BTW: You might wanna check out POVray for this, actually. Open-source, programming-type modeler, and I believe it comes in Linux, too. See "Frick the System", somewhere dead here...
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Have an inbuilt section call Shipyards or something where you can import a 3ds, MAX, LW whatever, add all the guns, rotating section and whatnot and save it into the game. A POF file could be used for exporting ships to other copies. Give it some extra useful things like normal fixers, scalers and stuff. That way you'd know for certain, straight away that your model was gonna work in the game and you could quickly and easily tweak the size and various other attributes. A mission too hard? Open the Shipyard and add some more gun ports to your fighter.
Basically, mush together PCS, ModView and some basic 3d modelling tools.
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And make it have a psychic interface.:p
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Originally posted by Kazan
HLP won't be hosting the website, i depise gamespy's servers
IIRC Your not the project leader - you said as much yourself :)
Oh, and if your not hosted with us - no forum for you.
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The additional pof data should definitely be specified in the tables; would make it a lot easier to work with.
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hey guys, i have my thoughts on what this should be and all, i'v ebeen thinking of doing fs with a new engine for quite a while
anyways, the ifh engine looks awesome, i told kazan to see for himself, its look to be better than anyone here can come up with in less than a year or 2. just because its not "your" engine doesnt make the game any less yours
anyway, i'm working on a website, so..uhm i got a lot to say
basically: get a webiste up
get the best talent in the fs community (aldo, venom, untouchable, steak, etc etc) and get them onboard
taking the best ideas from fs and new ideas we can make a kickass game.. a legacy
anyways, why not get hosted by hlp? they got servers, forums webspace and community,
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the IFH people won't share their source, they won't endorse linux versions, and their engine is highly specific
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Originally posted by Rictor
anyways, why not get hosted by hlp? they got servers, forums webspace and community,
Untill we see something more substantial we simply can't offer hosting - it goes against our own rules of hosting.
However once something has been done we'd be more than happy to offer hosting to the project, although as shown slightly above Kazan doesn't like the servers... however as a counterpoint he's not the project leader so it doesn't really matter what he thinks of them.
Which raises another - important - point. Who leads this thing? The more experience this person or persons has the better, there shouldn't be more than 3 "main" leaders since past that things start to take to long to get done. Just one leader also isn't always good since they get final say and don't always have expertise in what everyone else is doing (thus making poor, uninformed judgements). (obviously this is all IMO).
I should point out at this stage to those of you who remember it - Cold Legacy. It was a huge project, one down from this basically - designed to be a FS3. Poor planning mean't it never really worked out - ensure this doesn't happen here.
(Oh, and welcome to the forums Ric :))
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IMHO, I think Kazan should employ the Roman Method. In other words assign two consuls, and the programmers/artists etc are the senate. Works, no? :)
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Hmm - could work, another point is that the head dude (s?) should have experience in as many areas as possible including programming, art, website design, audio, concept work and the interaction with others as well as a good ability to lead :nod:
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or even better kami - make it a triumvirate
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Make a search committee and have people submit resumes.
Have people like Thunder, maybe myself, maybe Kaz (though if you apply, you can't be on the selection committee) etc on that committee. That small group (3 is a good number) votes on the most qualified applicant, maybe order the top 3 and let the people signing up to do the work choose, something like that.
That's how we hire people, we have interview teams, the teams discuss the applicant, then recommend.
Oh, and managing by committee gets funky, you often get deadlocked issues, teams split, all sorts of wierdness.
Just make sure you have a fair project lead. You can select the lead by committee, but managing by committee, well, doesn't really work ;)
Sidenote: Kaz, just don't go overboard in the other direction with the anti-windows thing and slant it away from windows users. They are, after all, the bulk of your audience and ultimately people you are making it for ;)
Sidenote 2: Who else out there does C++? Sounds like Kaz will handle the Linux side of things, you need at least one person willing to live and develop in the windows world. Also, what about Macs? I guess I am getting to what I would call the Scope again. Someone copy all this down into one document and post a link (all the scope stuff, not all the posts, stuff about cross platform, openGL, yada yada).
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Inqui: Macs with OS/X should be able to use the same executable that linux uses
and if get get very clever with GLUT [the OpenGL Utility Package] we can make the same code base work on windows and linux
btw: the "anti-windows" is because i got sick and tired of that crapOS and that corporation with a napoleon complex
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Originally posted by Inquisitor
Sidenote 2: Who else out there does C++? Sounds like Kaz will handle the Linux side of things, you need at least one person willing to live and develop in the windows world. Also, what about Macs? I guess I am getting to what I would call the Scope again. Someone copy all this down into one document and post a link (all the scope stuff, not all the posts, stuff about cross platform, openGL, yada yada).
I do C++, and know basic W32, and OGL. I could always study up and practice.
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Hey there Kaz. Heard a lot about you.
Well, as you may know, I am VERY interested in preserving Freespace. I mean, come on, look at what I've done. That means compatibility with FS2 means compatibility with FS1. :)
I've read all the pages, and I have quite a bit to say.
Is it possible? Ultimately, yes. We have incredible talent here, in every position, judging by all the work done on FS mods. I've seen coding, models, maps, missions, web pages, you name it, all in the name of Freespace. There's no doubt that we have the resources and the motivation.
However, we lack coordination. It's been said that "if we can't get a single mod or campaign done, what chance do we have here?" What game studios have and we don't is that everyone works together in one building at the same time: programmers, sound engineers, writers, modelers, everything. We have forums, ICQ and Email. Not the greatest medium for full development. I'm extremely impressed with what we've had so far, but having unpaid, undedicated people all over the world it won't cut it.
This brings me to my next point: if we're really serious about this, we're going to need full-time staffers. I don't know how many of you are professionals, but if we're building an entire game we need a production studio. This is unlikely considering many of us are still in school. (What were those demographics again?) Kids working after school and on weekends, including activities, sports, homework, studying, and real jobs, can't produce something like this, particularly if it takes 24 hours to get feedback on something.
Now for copyright issues. As it's been said, if you can create a program that can read copyrighted files, you can distribute it, so long as you don't actually distribute those files. VPView isn't illegal now is it? Also, I've had a lot of questions concerning the Port's legality, but I haven't heard from Interplay yet. :nervous: The way things are going, I feel that by the time this is finished, Interplay and THQ will be bought out or bankrupt, Volition will be independant again or sold to someone else, and Freespace will be all but forgotten. (I think 'abandonware' is technically illegal but nobody cares or is going to make money off it.) In theory you could do it legally, but make damn sure you know the laws in case Interplay starts poking around.
Engine use? If you write it yourself, you'd know exactly how it works and would be able to do anything you want with it. Unfortunately you would probably have bugs to be filtered out, it would take a long time, and developers would have to wait to start working. There are, however, many engines for low or no cost, tried and tested. I highly suggest looking at all of them and seeing if one tickles your fancy. If not, you can pick up ideas on how to implement a certain feature in your own engine. You should definitely look at the Descent II engine as it was the las game Parallax completed before working on Freespace, and probably has some clues in there.
Project leader(s): A team of 3 dedicated people in different time zones, avaliable for counseling on any subject at any time, is ideal. If you want one overlord, well...
Originally posted by Inquisitor:
...gotta find someone who has pulled off a mod, start to finish, maybe that's him, maybe not.
Gee, I can't think of anyone who fills that position... :drevil: Seriously, I'm starting University and will have no free time to speak of, so I can't help, let alone lead.
In short, we have everything a professional studio has except constant access to each other and each other's work. This could possibly be offset by the vast number of people willing to work on it. If we could acquire a dedicated filesharing server, and have staff on call, we COULD do it. By the time we do, though, the FS2 source could well have been released.
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i dont think kazan is the right man for the job
no offence but you dont like things (volition, microsoft, windows daveb)
i think someone like icefire, aldo or a combination of the mod leaders can pull this off. what i suggest is that you find an open source engine, improve it as you see fit
i have some great ideas (i think they're great;) ) and a few more deisgners couldnt hurt
anyways, kazan honestly, in one thread you have discounted the possibility of using windows programing to make the game, asking an established enginie, and getting hlp to host it, (i think the daveb thread was crap)
its not up to me anyways
well, uhm thats it
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Where can i read this "daveb" thread? Someone must of saved something.
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I have it, want me to send it to you?
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Its pure comedy.
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daveb thread notwithstanding...
Part time developers can make games, Tac ops just went commercial, that was part time developers, Counter-Strike, another.
http://www.garagegames.com is FULL of teams doing exactly this.
I spent June/Jully to November doing "Endeavor" not a game, but done in a game engine, and have been making my "non-game" From November to today (it actually is a game now, objectives, yada yada) and am about to kick something off with Maxgaming to do something (still part time) for real.
This is all with a full time job and managing real development responsibilities for the company that pays me.
And I am not unique. So, I am not personally convinced you need a studio.
Just need a plan ;)
You guys have the kernel of one here, almost there :)
Kaz: with regards to the Mac OS thing, more or less, but it's not a straight "copy the exe and run" thing. TQ (the only one I have actual experience) has seperate people working on the Mac and Linux exes, just wasn't QUITE the same. Apple still made their own little niggles to it ;)
The good news, is I can point people toward a guy who has DONE that type of conversion, and he can spew all sorts of stuff about the pitfalls involved. And he seems to like to talk about it ;) Met him at the Boston Area IGDA meeting last week.
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Originally posted by Rictor
no offence but you dont like things (volition, microsoft, windows daveb)
:cool: _I_ won't be working on windows, doesn't mean other developers in the team won't me - this is a cross platform engine and we need programmers on all platforms
:mad:I don't like windows for a entire host of very good reasons, and people blow out of proportions my dislike for windows and microsoft- I i really hated windows that bad I would have done what someone, who shall remain nameless, suggested over ICQ : make it linux only.
:headz: I don't like dave because he couldn't take someone simply pointing out that they recognized "hey you did that this way, the game is great, but that wasn't the best way; here's a better way to use in the future"
I tried many times to be friendly with him and he's rebuked those attempts.
so much for the past
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Originally posted by Inquisitor
Kaz: with regards to the Mac OS thing, more or less, but it's not a straight "copy the exe and run" thing. TQ (the only one I have actual experience) has seperate people working on the Mac and Linux exes, just wasn't QUITE the same. Apple still made their own little niggles to it ;)
yeah.. the WM isn't the same - but using GLUT .. which i should probably explain here in a minute after my various references to it - should make it still be the same code base - it's just a simple recompile
GLUT or (Open)GL Utility Library
This is a library the provides a cross platform way to initialize opengl - the only part of opengl that isn't natively cross platform - we can do all the GUI drawing inside OpenGL - so with GLUT installed along with the executable you would then have a fully cross-platform program with a single code base.
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Since I have a few publication tools (i.e. Pagemaker, Acrobat) at my disposal, I might be willing to do any _real_ documentation exported to PDF format if/when something gets released to the public. Plus, I have some coding knowledge of HTML, so I can help to build any website if need be, although my skills are best directed at linking the whole thing together.
I also have PSP6 and Photoshop, so if I found a very concise tutorial, I may be capable of texturing. And I am a semi-established artist, so if someone makes a verbal description of an object I can give a rough sketch of what the thing would look like.
Also, I agree that it might actually be easier and faster to use an already-finished engine and add functions we need to it. Since I have no coding knowledge, this may be a two-edged sword, tho. I mean, we may add a new, vital gameplay enhancement, but in effect also trash something that must abosolutely be there as well.
And as for data access and model point coordinate data? I say avoid any table or list files if at all possible. Modders hate having restrictions (example: the sounds.tbl and music.tbl files in FS2). However, they are dead simple to alter, so I'm thinking maybe have table/list data files for weapons and ships, but rather have them call sounds and such directly, without going through an index like the FS2 engine does. Cut as much crap out as possible. And make them size-indepenent! Tables make modding easier, but can quickly kill a conversion if there isn't enough room for everything.
For model formats, I would personally prefer having a generic file such as a 3DS or GMAX hold the geometry info, but have a second file (like an INV for my accursedly blessed Pagemaker, which indexes the document's font types and image locations in this file) hold special point and texturing data. If you want to alter geometry, fine, just bug with the 3DS/GMAX file (or whatever is used). If you, say, change texture maps, a simple alteration of the INV (or its equivalent) fixes that, without hex editing or thrashing with the model itself. Although it can get squirrelly because most 3D files reference the textures directly, right?:confused:
And as for a massive index file, why not use a ZIP file? AFAIK, it's fairly common technology, and I already know Birth of the Federation uses it as its storage dump for game data files. Plus, everyone can get a file manager (read: WinZip) to access/add/remove/alter the contents, and it should be easy to implement a read-only script or whatever into the engine itself.
Better shut up now so someone else can get some say in. :)
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I have been around a while on the VBB and moved here a little while back. I will help in any way I can if you want me to. My skills are limited but I can help with a web site if you want.
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Another game engine article:
http://www.extremetech.com/article/0,3396,apn=2&s=1017&a=25462&ap=1,00.asp
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Kaz: where's the glut homepage?
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JC: having to deal with compressed data will slow the program down - and VPs are actually a form of compression [if you know how filesystems operator you'll know what im talking about] and they incredibly speed up finding files on that harddrive by having fewer file records
as for using insert modeling environement here's model format: ___NO____[/i] we're not splitting it up into two files to have to open two files and process the data from a binary and a text file - not to mention - a modeling enviroment's save file _IS_ _NOT_ optimized for real-time rendering, we have to compile it into a BSP tree, Quadtree or Octree, which will take loading time
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http://www.opengl.org/developers/documentation/glut.html
not a panacea, but great tech ;)
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we'd have to write a lot of code on top of it to draw the GUI.. but it is possible.. and it will keep us with _one_ codebase
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Originally posted by Kazan
HLP won't be hosting the website, i depise gamespy's servers
www.vitalcircuits.com
I can personally guarantee you that what's stated on there is true. I know the people behind this personally.
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Ok, here's an idea. Before we all start getting carried away with ideas, lets all meet in IRC and get this thing semi-organized. Or alteast to the point where job assignments get hashed out.
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How about you just make another thread with the name FreeSpace Forever "Roll Call" first?.....that way we know who is in and who is out...then you can go and set the leaders of the programme.....then you get to assign duties....and then you get started...
*hypnotising look*and we all know everyone is IN, don't we?*/hypnotising look*:D
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I'm in, but as most who have spoken I'm not a programer (art guy, though I could prove usefull), I think the D-net guys are the only real programers who'd be even know what Freespace was and be willing to help
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Originally posted by Kazan
as for using insert modeling environement here's model format: ___NO____[/i] we're not splitting it up into two files to have to open two files and process the data from a binary and a text file - not to mention - a modeling enviroment's save file _IS_ _NOT_ optimized for real-time rendering, we have to compile it into a BSP tree, Quadtree or Octree, which will take loading time
Ahhhh! I didn't know this, a converter would be a nessicity then. In which case why not go with wEvil's suggestion and work with a model format that is well documented, you'd have a good starting point to design a converter at the very least.
I remember doing a little reading on GLUT and it seems that it would be an ideal choice to use with a multiplatform game engine.
You've got the basis for a good plan anyhow.
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Maeglamor: or we can make our own based of a format we already grok - POF - and write a set of conversion tools
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I meant a starting format from which you'd convert to POF or whatever. The benefit of a documented starting format (was it XSI?) means that you'd be able to write a converter very quickly, especially considering that you've done a lot of work with the POF format.
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well we alredy have COB -> POF code out the ass, so I say we keep POF as the model file format, is anyone actualy againced this :blah:
if we get a basic rendering engine I'll exited, but untill then I'm takeing this with a grain of salt,
anyway I would like for the renderer (off the top of my head)
animated textures
animatable UV
bump maping
shine mapping (don't know the technical name) Shrike - Specular
mapped ambiant light
dinamic lighting and some precalculated light maps in the model file (would need a new chunk)
the nonrendering aspect I would like
some sort of boulian operation (geo-mod on ships) for big weapons
model animations (idealy some sort of skelital system but multi object will be acseptable)
a form of real physics, not to the IW extreem, but more real than it is now
I have a general idea how most of these work, but no idea how to implement them
but first we will need a engine that can render textured polygons with smooth shading, you do know how to do that right
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OpenGL mabey?
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Originally posted by Kazan
Maeglamor: or we can make our own based of a format we already grok - POF - and write a set of conversion tools
Grok? Is that like understand/know/use but in caveman speak?
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I think it came out of Berkeley, actually...
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Have you though of talking to milo (?) about the Starshatter engine?
He might not be willing to actually let you use it, but he'd probably have some decent advice.
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That's right, it's milo. That's a great idea, actually; I'll go see what I can do. :)
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My only bugbear with using the POF format is exactly what bobbau said.
unless you can get it into a truespace COB - which isn't just a headache, its a fullblown migraine - without problems you're stuffed.
as for .XSI, as far as i'm aware its a format thats written specifically to be as damn flexible as possible. Softimage are really plugging it for games and I just think it would be the best way to go. I dunno if Kazan read through any info on it, but the project deadlines will suffer if you make the artists fiddle around with converting their work into a crap format where most of the useful data disappears instead of just writing some BSP code in.
Why cant we precompile the BSP tree? been done before.
The starshatter engine certainly looks good - go for it, steak!
What about the Ntrap Megathrea engine? Crystal space looks OK on paper but its hard to get good results out of it. Having said that I havent seen it in a working game yet, only the demos and they cant be expected to look as nice as a finished product.
And as far as professional experience goes my resume so far is:
* One commercial production for saudi arabian football(signed an NDA tho so i cant say anymore)
* currently working on a game (d4).
* Full time 1st yr Computer Graphics student so i should know what im talking about.
Plus I have 5 years of experience using MAX plus i have 14 years of experience on PCs in general.
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Grok=Understand in Kazan speak.
It's a usage I've not heard in a while ;)
And compressed files may, solw things down, but EVERY engine uses them.
Tribes 2 uses v12 files, which, are just zip files with a different name. Quake 2-X and JK and MOH, and (oh you get the picture) use pak files, again, just zip files renamed.
It's about how the engine manages resources, if it can read the archive in a more native way, the slow down is minimal.
Is there another thread where I see volunteers? Just woke up, need coffee, need to make wife breakfast and commandeer the PS2 from our houseguest to clear head :)
-edit-
And learn to spell :)
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wevil, have you seriously been reading? I said _more_ _conversion_ _tools_ inotherwords our current tools would be extended to add more file formats like 3DS max.. i just need someone that groks 3DS Max files
[inqui - correct about Grok, and yes it comes out of bezerkeley - it's more than just 'understand' it's inimiately understand.. someone else used it in this read before me...]
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Ill see if theres' anything in the MAX SDK on it.
got an email addy I can send it to? I think you already did take a look at it once, not sure.
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i don't grok, let along understand the 3DS Max format.. so you'll really need someone else to write teh conversion stuff - but you can get the plugin SDK for PCS from my site [btw: i'm not going to have to change PCS to make it work on linux.. i have it working in Wine]
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Ok, I am going to try and free up sometime to look at the new crystal space, just to see what it's got.
Has anyone looked at any of the engines?
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If you need any renders, animations, etc, dont hesitate to ask...
By the time you would need them, I'll probably have a ton of free time....
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i looked at it... may be useful for reference material
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It was utter crap to work with a year ago. So, if it's even useful reference, that means it has improved.
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Won't there be a lot of copyright issues? The only way you could avoid them is by not referring to any of the material in FS1 or FS2, ie. no Shivans, no Vasudans, no Bosch, no Sathanas Juggernauts, etc. I guess there is a second option, do it anyway, but since you all seem to post your personal information here, it shouldn't be difficult for the lawyers to track you down.
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Originally posted by Executor
Won't there be a lot of copyright issues? The only way you could avoid them is by not referring to any of the material in FS1 or FS2, ie. no Shivans, no Vasudans, no Bosch, no Sathanas Juggernauts, etc. I guess there is a second option, do it anyway, but since you all seem to post your personal information here, it shouldn't be difficult for the lawyers to track you down.
hmm, before you get flamed, I suggest you read the thread again :p
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Originally posted by Executor
Won't there be a lot of copyright issues? The only way you could avoid them is by not referring to any of the material in FS1 or FS2, ie. no Shivans, no Vasudans, no Bosch, no Sathanas Juggernauts, etc. I guess there is a second option, do it anyway, but since you all seem to post your personal information here, it shouldn't be difficult for the lawyers to track you down.
Sure, the lawyers are all going to invade us, every few hundred of us... not there are that many people working on this. :nod:
We're going to have to use AOL now! :rolleyes:
Lawyers aren't paid that much, methinks....
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I go away for twelve days, and all... this... happens... I'm actually sobbing into my keyboard (it's starting to fizz somewhat).
Dunno what you'll be using for mission editing, but count me in.
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Everyone who is in, I send you to this thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,6838.0.html), since you seem to be blind enough yourself to see it fOOz (and I don't think Mr.T says it that way, but I don't really care ;):D)
(j/k, everything except the thread...):D
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Kaz: As I've BEEN SAYING, I've got compatibility with half the model file types on the planet, and I'm willing to share.
However, if you've got some kind of problem with warez, I'll just tell you that 3DS is the closest thing to an industry standard, and that there's not a whole lot to, er, 'grok' (which, if I remember correctly, generally involved eating the thing in the original usage:D). It's quite similar to most model file types in the way it stores an object's vertex coordinates and texture mapping- which is probably why it's the standard.
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Originally posted by Kazan
pessimism gets us nowhere
Volition doesn't care if we use their file formats, as long as credit is given
intergay is almost non-existant, and why would they bother - the game was released in 1999, it's 2002 - as far as they're concerned the game is dead
This game has become Abondonware
i don't think it's that, it's either that interplay have thier own probs right now (bioware and black isle are giving them grief wahoo! :D), or they can't even afford to sue a blowfly for crawling up the wall or something.
i suppose i'd better learn GMAX then :D
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Where can i download that? I must stop using TS5 to model.
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Watch any mention of warez, please.
GMAX is at Discreet.com if ,my memory hasn't failed.
Probaly also on fileplanet.
Licensing with GMAX is funny though, it's worth looking at, but producing game content is difficult at best.
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But GMAX is free...so how can it be warez?!
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Not talking about GMAX ;)
Not important. move on ;)
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Inquisitor: I guessed as much, but that's it, just checking. ;)
However, like I said, there are things in freeware, if one is going to look. I've given up on listing them, since people seem to ignore my posts when they actually say anything worth reading, but they are worth looking at, particularly the open-source ones.
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Lemme find some links :)
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[ignores]
Nope, I'm sulking.
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I've been reading this thread and would like to say that it's one of the first topics that has actually made me want to join a forum. I'm not on-line much at the moment (should change in the next three months) but would like to help. The creation of a game - by people separated by distance and time - sounds like fun!
A post made by Inquisitor some time ago caught my eye in particular - it mentions the need for a structured plan, design, implementation, testing, bug-fixing. I could not agree more - design is THE most important aspect of any project (this doesn't stop me from going straight to code in a few places, but I know it's naughty) and is critical to a good final product. As a lecturer of mine said 'if you get the design right, the implementation should be child's play' - he neglected to mention researching the libraries, testing and bug-fixing, but it's still a good point. The other thing worth mentioning is that the design should cover everything, from graphics to AI to storyline to voiceovers, you name it, it should be in the design - obviously not all at once :). The other important aspect is to get user opinion - what do the masses want? Sure we've all played FS1 & FS2 and know that we want new stuff, but you'd be amazed what suggestions other non-computer savvy players can come up with.
I'm a final year student doing a Masters in engineering in the UK, specialising in software - my final year project was developing a viewer for the display of large (500MB) 3D objects on low-spec machines (STL file format in case anyone's interested) - as you can imagine, this met with only limited success! Part of it was working on automatic level of detail (something bound to make modellers happy) but lets not get ahead of ourselves! Having said I'd love to help, I'm currently prepping for finals, so give me a 1-2 months and then I'll help, if it's wanted! I'll also see if any of my programmer friends are interesting in lending a hand... but I digress.
I'd also recommend using a pre-made game engine - if it's properly open-source and you can modify it so much the better; it just give you so many more options to work with and you don't have to work everything out yourself. Doing so can be great fun but you can't learn everything - much as I'd like to! Having just spent eight months teaching Direct3D to sit up and beg - without meshes, I might add, due to the requirements of the project (damn them for that) - I hopefully can say with some authority that creating a game engine from scratch is not going to be simple or fast - but then you people already knew that ;). My experience with OpenGL is limited, and I agree that cross-platform is good (because Windows is still great for people who know nothing about computers), but I intended to teach myself OpenGL anyway, may as well do it for a reason!
Programming in general requires a leap of faith - that the programmer who designed the library you're using (and that includes the ones for your C/C++ compiler) knew what he/she was doing and that it works. How many of you have found out how new or malloc works? The code is there but we assume it just does the job. Same with a game engine. For the non-programmers out there, Direct3D and OpenGL are not game engines - they are 'non-hardware-specific graphics wrappers'. If one translates this into English, it means that you can do graphical stuff without worrying what hardware if any the end user has - the developer still has to do a heck of a lot of 3D work to get a decent image.
The other things that Direct3D & OpenGL won't do are stuff like AI, collisions, pathfinding, all the fiddly maths that turns a bunch of 3D objects into a real game that fires the imagination. This ignores the other key elements of storyline, plot, nice-looking ships etc... Game engines, on the other hand, tend to have some aspects of collision, AI etc.. built in - modifying code is a great deal easier than writing it from scratch.
Besides, if you, or should I say we ;), get the OOP design right, encapsulation means that you can port the overall game code to any engine you like, which means you can write a really super-duper one later, once the game concept is proved. Neat, huh? On a programming note, DirectX deals with all input, networking, and of course graphics & sound within its own sub-departments, DirectInput, DirectMusic, DirectPlay etc... and btw has some really neat things in it (before anyone starts MS bashing, yep I disagree with them on a lot of issues too, but they ain't Satan either) - OpenGL just does graphics - what are you planning on using for the other aspects - if it's going to be cross-platform, you have to get this right?
As an aside, if anyone has any thoughts on auto-LOD generation generally (and yes I'm looking at doing it real-time), please, please let me know - you will get credited! But I get the marks, deal? (actually it's already handed in, but I plan on expanding it).
Phew, one long post for someone who's never been on a forum before - guess I had a lot to say! Hope it's appreciated! If for some reason I don't join in the fun, luck!
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Originally posted by Merlin
As an aside, if anyone has any thoughts on auto-LOD generation (and yes we're looking at doing it real-time), please, please let me know - you will get credited! But I get the marks, deal? (actually it's already handed in, but I plan on expanding it).
Phew, one long post for someone who's never been on a forum before - guess I had a lot to say! Hope it's appreciated! If for some reason I don't join in the fun, luck!
:jaw: man, thats one long post.
Wouldnt MultiRes handle Auto-LOD generation? It comes with 3dsmaxMAX4 and i was under the impression it can be made to work transparently with the game?
Either way..i just dont know enough about code to even remotely sound like I know what im talking about :P
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all this sounds quite obvious, but anyway it's not a bad thing to say them again :)
For that autolod thinguy, I think the simplest way is to weld the close verts together. the higher the distance from the point of view to the mesh is, the higher the distance weld is. Unlike 3dsMax tho, it should work only on verts belonging to a same group of polys, coz it can do horribhle things otherwise.
About using an existing game engine, I would have suggested the quake1 engine maybe, coz I think the source is now available and it's said to be very easy to modify, but I doubt this would be very popular :p
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Well, handling LOD on the fly asks more (truthfully no idea how much) of the end use computer, most of the times it's easier to assign discreet LOD to the model and let the engine call those X levels of detail when the model is at a particular distance. IMHO ;)
Dunno, that's why a scope then design are important. That's a feature that could get tricky, and if there is an easier way to do it that requires less resources, I'd be inclined to take that route.
Still collecting resumes, there might be enough interest in this to follow thru, in which case a chat (with an AGENDA, I hate free for alls) would be in order inthe next week.
Other than that, spot on Merlin, I tend to agree, even about the engine choice (again, this depends alot on the scope and design, and we have not done the homework). The 2 programmer types currently signed up need to chat with me, we'll pick some engines, then we go out and do homework on them, come back with a scorecard on them. TQ for instance, uses DirectX for the windows side control, and other mechanisms for the *NIX side. openGL or D3D are choices for the user on w32. Obviously openGL only for every one else. Say what you like about DirectX, it has it's uses.
They also use openAL for sound on both w32 and *nix. Lots of things like that need to be sorted out :)
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well i got 3dsmax 4.2 but i havent installed it i think i MAYBE (very big maybe) can create animations in lightwave but i don't think you need em :)
so what are the things so far suggested to add to the new angine if it ever comes out?
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Originally posted by wEvil
:jaw: man, thats one long post.
Wouldnt MultiRes handle Auto-LOD generation? It comes with 3dsmaxMAX4 and i was under the impression it can be made to work transparently with the game?
Either way..i just dont know enough about code to even remotely sound like I know what im talking about :P
Wouldn't auto-LODing be a bit too much of an overhead, though. Off the top of my head, you'd have to maybe combine close normals and merge their UV maps in some way.
Maybe it would be better to just leave it to the modeller, and have a large number - say 8 or 10 - LODs? This would save time and space for AI and physcis, which is what I'd imagine as being most important - especially if you're using a predictive AI, where the computer tries to determine the best move for the player, and counteract it.... i'd imagine you'd need to hold a lot of possible scenarios if you were using that. Also remember that good textures simulate polys, anyway - I doubt anyone would really notcie the difference between a sub 500 poly X-wing and the 30,000 poly cgi model when it comes to playing a game.
On the other hand, I've only just started studying that area, so I'm not sure on what you can do with beyond FSM-based AI.
Personlly, I thinmk you should just stop talking about the engine features, and concentrate on getting a simple setup where you can have a plain box anticipating the players reactions and 'fighting' with them, then move to 2 enemy ships, then having a friendly AI ship, etc.
Mainly because you're going to need to get the physics, AI, etc working before you can predict what leeway you have for fancy graphics.... I mean, that final few percent of allocated memory is more useful for a clever enemy battle tactic, than a fancy volumetric effect when it comes to playing it. :)
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Many thanks for the swift replies - glad to know it's busy out here!
I shouldn't worry too much, wEvil, I'm not even sure I know what you're talking about in graphical terms ;) - little experience on actual graphical development, I just get them to appear on-screen :) - honest answer is I don't know - besides, I also happen to be trying get it to work in a generic viewer without increasing file-size, not just in a game. But that's my problem :)
As for it being obvious, venom, a fair point, although I do think I brought up a couple of points not previously mentioned (ten points, no pun intended, for anyone who can find them in that mess) - the idea on verts is fine - progressive meshes is another we looked at.
Inquistor, first, thanks, second, I agree on the LOD thing, the automatic aspect is just my pet hobby - for real-time game rendering, you want best performance and to hell with disk-space :p!
Aldo, IMO the engine includes the physics & AI, a basic beta could well be the box you describe, and yes, gameplay is most important, which I believe I said earlier ...
'Wow, what a response' is all I can say!
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WOW, I love this idea, But it is going to be hard we are going to have to devlop some sort of plugins for "3D Studio MAX" to the make the advanced POFs.
Just because of this topic i am going to buy.
Games Programming Starter Kit 5.0
It contains Microsoft C++
and a game studio thing (Standard edition)
best of all it comes with a ebook about "3D" programming
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Well...as soon as the programmers get back to us I have or can get hold of most SDKs for 3D formats and programs so translators can be written.
Nope they arent warez, the uni has copies of most of them.
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Fozzy: The starter kit is neat, but, not sure how much you'll get out of it. Last I checked, it came with a copy of Genesis 3d (though that was version 4) another free engine that may or may not be suitable, it's certainly poorly documented :) and it's not open source (I thought they were going commercial with it, maybe not, worth a look) and the C++ compiler is the "learning edition" which is great for learning, but you can't apply the service packs to it and you can't distribute the exes you make with it (it pops a message saying do not distribute at runtime).
Catch me online if you like, there are LOTS of good resources out there, and you can even get C++ compilers for free (gcc anyone?) there might be a better way to "get started" :)
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Merlin has his head on straight :D
I agree with him on just about everything exceptions:
Direct3D will not be the default rendering system, the windows team can add a Direct3D renderer if they want [we'll have renderer plugins] _but_ OpenGL is the default to keep the main codebase as smiliar as possible
He may or may not be correct on basing off another engine, i just don't like to do that.. especially if it requires _special_ librearies that aren't included and aren't truely standard. Sure GLUT for OpenGL would have to be distributed with the FSFengine but it's much more standard than Doxygen or anything like that.
As for OOP - WORD UP :D
Oh what we should do is write an abstraction layer for between the underlying operating system and the actual engine - so like if we don't use GLUT to write everything to the screen with would have a class OSInterface that wraps all platform specific code - and with conditional compilation conditions [compilers define preprocessor constants that ID the operating system] can determin which OSInterface abstraction layer is the one actually used
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I'd be careful about Microsoft coding stuff, because they've been known to subtly edit languages so they only work with windows.
Java is a good example - Microsoft were (sucessfully) sued by Sun for trying to to make the java Virtual machine only run on Windows machines. Hence the presence of J# on the .net dev kit - and probably c# (not too sure on that one).
We had an MS tech bus on campus a few eeks ago to pimp their wares, and Cs students can get Win Xp and the .net dev kit - not that I'm overly bothered. mind you, my comp Arch teacher loathes MS, and managed to get in more than a few cheap shots with the demonstrator guy :D ;7
Oh, merlin - just curious - what Uni are you at?
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blech, avoid .NET :(
Anywho, the way TQ does it is it only invokes the DirectX stuff ON windows. never even gets looked at in the *nix builds.
But that's not an issue, whatever gets built has to have an openGL rendered, wholly agree with Kazan on that.
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Also agree with use of OpenGL/AL, I was only using DirectX as an example since it's been what I lived and breathed with for some time now! :) Definitely must be cross-platform.
University of Birmingham, aldo, (not the one in Alabama :p)
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Just make sure that, when you design it, don't use UML!!
Far as I can tell, that was only conceived make lecturers and systems designers look like smart-arses. :)
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no bodys actualy comfermed what language this will be written in.
I can program in Visual Basic.
I made this yesterday: http://www26.brinkster.com/fargate/malm.html
also I can access the regestry so I would be usefull to make the launcher. All though I would need some graphics experts like venom to make the graphics.
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I hear that :D! UML is slow & boring - although there are utilities that allow you to code and generate UML afterwards... but I've never used them.
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Originally posted by Fozzy
also I can access the regestry so I would be usefull to make the launcher.
You wouldn't happen to have registry editor that you could send to [email protected], would you?
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I can do some basic programming in Visual Basic and C++ and have a little bit more experience with Mathematica, although nothing good enough to work on a full-fledged game. I might be able to put together the low-level AI commands and the physics (but someone else will have to render it into C++), along with any grammar/spelling stuff (if that even comes up).
Far as I can tell, that was only conceived make lecturers and systems designers look like smart-arses.
That is the same reason that greek letters are used all over the place in math. :p (i.e. x looks smarter than x :p)
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start menu---run program
regedit.
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C++ most likely. VB isn't very portable :)
Again, haven't sat down and designed it, but I am thinking that because of the cross platform "requirement" VB is right out ;)
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Originally posted by Merlin
I hear that :D! UML is slow & boring - although there are utilities that allow you to code and generate UML afterwards... but I've never used them.
Togehter Control Centre, one of the most god-awful waste of system resources ever. Built in Java, which might explain it.
Just as an aside, how good is C++ as controlling memory use, etc, compared to C? I assume you'll not need to use assembly level coding for this......but if you can find someone to do it, you could really speed it up. Just don't look towards me ;7
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Originally posted by Fozzy
no bodys actualy comfermed what language this will be written in.
Assembler?
"runs"
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Originally posted by venom2506
Assembler?
"runs"
Do not mock the second greatest programming language ever devised.
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To give you some idea of what a modern engine does:
SOME stuff is written in assembler, but MOST everything is C++.
My VS 6 workspace for Torque has a special assembly custom build step, I never touch the assembly though.
C++ handles memory as well as you tell it to ;)
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Assembler is one of my favorites, second only to Mathematica. ;) (trying to learn some more)
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Originally posted by an0n
Do not mock the second greatest programming language ever devised.
nah, you misunderstand me: assembler is probably the best language, I've been told ( coz it uses direct orders to the CPU or something like that so it's very efficient), but my brother told me it was amongst the hardest to code. So -> lot of work
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ASM (assembler) is only faster than C++ in the hands of an überguru -
we're using C++, as for high-speed memory allocation - leave that to me boys.. i'm familiar with the case studies in Order(1) [static sizing, ie knowing before hand how much you need] and Orger(log n) [dynamic sizing] for memory allocation :P
VB doesn't have anything resembling performance or stability
ok... hmm.. wee need to get our heads togeather.. i need to learn how to use CVS
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Originally posted by venom2506
assembler is probably the best language, I've been told ( coz it uses direct orders to the CPU or something like that so it's very efficient), but my brother told me it was amongst the hardest to code. So -> lot of work
COBOL is the best. |>|-|34/2 it.
ASM is so low level you might as well just have an on-off switch infront of you and keep flicking it. It's the lowest level language I know of but it's soooooooo good (if you can find and interrupt list to work with). Everything has to be manually assigned so it'll only do what you specifically tell it to. Very good.
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Originally posted by an0n
COBOL is the best. |>|-|34/2 it.
ASM is so low level you might as well just have an on-off switch infront of you and keep flicking it. It's the lowest level language I know of but it's soooooooo good (if you can find and interrupt list to work with). Everything has to be manually assigned so it'll only do what you specifically tell it to. Very good.
oh yeah, I forgot you knew everything about anything.
I look at what everybody says, and you're the only opne to think that. I'll just ignore you, so sue me :p
Go back and spam with Stryke9.
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Pbbbbt.:p
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Originally posted by venom2506
oh yeah, I forgot you knew everything about anything.
Damn straight.
I look at what everybody says, and you're the only opne to think that.
Think what?
I'll just ignore you, so sue me :p
Go back and spam with Stryke9.
It's not spam. It's carefully calculated chaotic humour.
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It's the lowest level language I know of
That's what I like about it; gives you full control over your program. ;)
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Originally posted by an0n
It's not spam. It's carefully calculated chaotic humour.
Listen to the man!:D
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I think Venom is just being cranky and needs a nap. Too bad there's no more nice, restful VBB to go piss off to.
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Originally posted by Kazan
ok... hmm.. wee need to get our heads togeather..
*points* (http://fsforever.netfirms.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi)
Of course, it has ads, but that's what I get for hosting with netfirms. :rolleyes:
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actually... from what im looking at with the installation routines for GLUT on linux... bah
we should just make two versions of the initialization function for our class OpenGLRenderer with conditional compilation directives
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Plenty of LODs to allow lots and lots of ships involved, alongside being able to be Alpha 3, or Epsilon 7, not damn Alpha 1 all the time! I want to be a peon.
OFC I'm too tired to say anything remotely helpful and non-newbieish, sorry guys. :o
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yeah simply compiling GLUT on linux is a *****.. because they have there library references ****ED UP
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scratch that.. incomplete
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Anybody have experience programming AI? It'd be nice if your wingmen can fly straight and the cap ships can avoid running into each other.
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If you want, you can go p1mp to the TMP people... 's not like there's a hell of a lot to do over there and, since we've had to use scripters since the game came out, quite a few have decent AI skills. Hit Zuxxez, I think pretty much everyone still visits there. (Oh, and for best results learn German)
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http://members.cox.net/milod/links.htm
Milo's useful links to all manner of gaming things. Including some AI links.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
I think Venom is just being cranky and needs a nap. Too bad there's no more nice, restful VBB to go piss off to.
huh, yeah, actually, I was in a bad mood.
apologies etc etc.
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Originally posted by venom2506
huh, yeah, actually, I was in a bad mood.
apologies etc etc.
That was you in a bad mood? **** man, you is tame. Release the evil and be merry.
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You must learn the ways of forceful use of rage, my son.
First lesson- attack this stone pillar- with your bare hands!
I will demonstrate- YAAAAH!
[foams at mouth]
[leaps onto pillair]
[takes a fair-sized bite out]
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
You must learn the ways of forceful use of rage, my son.
First lesson- attack this stone pillar- with your bare hands!
I will demonstrate- YAAAAH!
[foams at mouth]
[leaps onto pillair]
[takes a fair-sized bite out]
You forgot to finish:
[pillar collapses]
[crushes demonstrator]
[pillar demonstrates the way of forceful retribution]
Now please attempt to stay on topic.
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maybe i have a solution for the copyright issue
try to do it like the football simulations that don't have the rights for the players names (eg ISS Pro Evo), just slightly change the names of all FS related stuff (GTF Hercules = T(erran)S(pace)F Herkules or anything like that) and then include an ingame name editor or simply put all the names in a txt...
And Good Luck to ya all!!!:) I hope that ya can finish this project!
PS: Does anyone have a clue on how to get any information about the FS story that Volition had in mind so that it could be of some use in this project (any lawyers here:))
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Even if you change the names of the ships, there's still the problem of the models looking awfully similar. Unless you scrapped all of them, but that would mean setting the story at least a hundred years later in order for it to be plausible why there aren't any Hatshepsuts around.
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i think that thay have copyrights only on the original models, so i think that as long as you make 'em from scratch they can look almost identical as the originals and your project is'nt in "danger" ( there was a similar issue regarding the stuff imported in the generations project for Quake 2)
and BTW i think you should take a look at the DPGE project for Quake 2 'cause you get the original q2 source with all the carmack goodies plus some good innovations. it's hosted on planetquake somwhere undeer the name of "the strogg wars" or something like that
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:wtf: :wtf:
I thought everyone had explained their stance on these "copyright issues". If they dont market it and try to make ££££, they're good.
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And what are they gonna do? Not like they can sue, no-one has any money. All they can do is tell you not to distribute it and I doubt they'd even do that. "Game company tries to crush fan creativity" wouldn't go down too well with their PR and Marketing divisions.
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read the gd-thread before posting please
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Originally posted by venom2506
nah, you misunderstand me: assembler is probably the best language, I've been told ( coz it uses direct orders to the CPU or something like that so it's very efficient), but my brother told me it was amongst the hardest to code. So -> lot of work
Assembler is direct register access, like
add $3, $2, $3
(reg 3= reg 3+ reg2)
It's basically the thing that tells the CPU what to do - reg transfers, conditional logic, etc.
Every other language has to be translated to this - that's what compiling is. So the efficiency of every high level language depends on it's compiler.... at best, this is almost as good as an expert aseembler programmer.
BUT (and this is a big but), there is a major difference between the assembler vocabulary of a programmer and a compiler. Because the Intel CISC is an utter ***** to use, Intel designed in a lot of sepcial case, very fast instructions. Because they are rarely used, most compilers ignore them.
The other thing is that expert assembler programmers - especially in Intel code - are hard to find. The likes of MIPs, etc, isn't so bad, because a lot of coding on stuff like mobile phone chips, etc, is still assembly level for efficiency reasons.
Oh, and java is the easiest language for learning O-O, and fairly versatile, but I found C the most fun in the brief semester I used it - mainly cos you can do fancy **** to speed up programs.
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About file formats and dropping in a new .EXE and having it run FS2: keep POF, VP, etc compatability, but stop there. Just keep it as backwards compatability, but decide on better formats for future use.
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i'll be basing the new POF loader off my current code for POF 2117 - so it'll check the version and an older POF [versions 2116 and 2117] will automatically be updated to 3000's format
the biggest change between POFver <= 2117 and POF version 3000 will probably be an 3D data format change
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Before making a blanket statement like that, I'd be interested in finding out how collision is going to get handled.
For instance, in TQ, the model format stores the collision info as well for most objects. Where is are the collision meshes dealt with in FS2? Do you have to create a collision mesh for the model when you make a new ship? or is that all handled without the modellers knowledge?
Collision is a bugbear, so, be thinking on that. It's one thing to VIEW the model, it's something else entirely to have that model interact in the engine.
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the collision handling is currently integrated with the BSP/IDTA data for the geometry
and i just found something that is satisfactory for initializing openGL in a cross platform manner
the SDL from Loki - open source, and simple initialization, and keystroke handling.. im working on writing an OOP initialization class right now
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mm i still have to finish reading all the pages (actually i've processed the first 4:p), so maybe my contribute isn't so original or useful...
first point: good idea;)
second point: why make only "freespace forever"?
i propose to make something bigger, not only freespace related:
a project of an engine built specifically to support mods may have more success and you will found more help, even outside this community, in my opinion, than if it will be related mostly on freespace.
then, we may decide to make a freespace mod for this engine.
This will not mean that the engine will not be compatible with freespace2...
you already knows how the fs2 works, and fs2 is surely one of the most moddable games out there...this is something to work on....the new engine so may be build in a similar way of freespace2,
what i mean is that you can put as objective to improove the moddable capabilities... more possibilities in an easyer way than actually...even if it means to have less compatibility with freespace....this engine will be, so, the BEST support to any "artist" that is interested in space sims...
in an engine like that, the graphic capabilities will surely be important..but they will be secondary compared to other points..
talking about the "engine of my desires"...i'd like, compared to freespace, a better rendering engine (obviously), maybe that supports ani's as textures and layers, the possibility to make hyperspace jumps and play in different sectors in the same mission, a good support for "atmospheric" environment, maybe with the possibility to reach the surface of a planet from space, more dinamic missions with strategic possibilities (dinamic sets of missions, dinamic objectives and dinamic quality, type, number of your forces), more freedom in inserting movies, even in the middle of a mission, more parameters in the tables, and a better netcode:)
and, why not, a "space sim-on line"....
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Originally posted by Kazan
read the gd-thread before posting please
Is that another thread to this one?
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Everything is in the tree?
Gonna have to break my books out again. But dynamic objects like players or spawned vehicles need to store SOMETHING about collision that the C++ reads, or you define it in some kind of scripting engine that brokers the information to C++.
If you store "everything" in the BSP, that means that to add a new ship, you need to rebuild the tree, n'est pas? Maybe you rebuild the tree on the fly, but you still need to have some pointers about the individual objects. Otherwise you have a very static game engine, no? Hard to mod, hard to extend.
Just saying it's in the BSP doesn't actually tell me much ;)
Lots of goodies on Gamasutra, BTW, on BSP, collision, AI, etc. If you're not going to look at an existing engine to help deal with this stuff, you need to at least look at the examples they provide there. Garagegames has a crap load of resources on this as well.
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Originally posted by Kazan
i'll be basing the new POF loader off my current code for POF 2117 - so it'll check the version and an older POF [versions 2116 and 2117] will automatically be updated to 3000's format
the biggest change between POFver <= 2117 and POF version 3000 will probably be an 3D data format change
btw, do you plan a new release of PCS for the regular FS2? some more features could be handfull.
Otherwise, for the collision stuff, I sure hope they'll stay like in FS2, using the main mesh, coz making a collision mesh is not worth the CPU resource gain, and I'd be too lazy to make yet one another model just for that... plus I'm already pissed off not being allowsed to fly into the Orion hangar, so with that... d'uh.
I can understand that in Iwar2 coz you can't really fly that close to a ship if you don't want to die, but in a FS kind of game, please, just no.
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it's in the _ships_ BSP/IDTA
read the specs at dnet
and i know from expirience that the SortNorms and BoundBoxes in the BSP/IDTA tree do the collision
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Bad me for not reading the spec :)
Well, the tree doesn't "do" the collision, but I see your point.
Ok, next subject :)
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well i belive that this thing is not gooing to be easy to "build",but enywhay i dot ow enithing about programing but i can prowide anew campaig story if you want just let me know.
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Greetings, those of you who know me, know that I am the design Lead for Descent IV as well as President and Owner of Orbital Design Studios.
There is a LOT of enthusiasm on this board for FS3. I only managed to get through the first _7_ pages of this thread before giving up to post. :P This is good, but there are several issues to address BEFORE STARTING, that I may be able to help you with.
1. The copyright issue. This is a major problem for both FS3 AND D4. Interplay is far from dead in fact, thanks to Titus, it's nearly revitialized and it's debts are lower than before even Descent II's production. They DO CARE about the FreeSpace Copyrights, but the problem isn't there...
The problem is that both Volition and Interplay own part of FreeSpace. Much simpler scenario for you then D4, I envy you. I have to deal with Outrage, Volition, Parallax and Interplay owning parts of Descent.
The OTHER problem you have, is that the Space Sim/shooter market is in a slump. I myself asked Interplay about FS3, they said not now.
You have ONLY 2 solutions:
Make a FS clone and have totally different storyline, ships, etc...
OR, get it done and have Interplay publish it, provided Volition gives their ok..in writing.
Possible Solution, and best solution I think, is to take advantage of Orbital's 8 month old management base, and come onboard as the FS3 project. We're already neck deep in the CS engine, capable of editing it to accept any file format we choose, even new ones we design. We have a large group of Descent fans (many Descent fans were FS fans too, I was one of them...) that work here, and the clentcher: D4 is designed to be ubermoddable. Tacking FS3 onto D4 in the same box as a "mod" (not really), would get it out the door, avert copyright issues (because if D4 can clear the legal problems it has, I don't think I'd have any problems at all clearing them for FS3), avert the problem with the slump in the space shooter market, and help D4 sell more copies, generating more income for Orbital, and helping to further it's continued existance.
2. This is indeed a huge project you wish to undertake. We can help you, but only if you're willing to do all of what it entails. I admit that I myself figured D4 would be easy, slap a few models around, write up a little new code and wizzbang it would be done....6 months later I look back and laugh at my own stupidity. What the hell was I thinking? :P It's now almost a year along, I'm a lot smarter than I was, I've learned a lot, as has the rest of the team.
In closing, I think we have a lot we can offer you, if you're interested. Send me an email and we'll talk about it, Kazan. [email protected]
--Orbital Design Studios--
For gamers, by gamers. No compromise.
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Hey Valin:
:) ;7 :p Welcome to the HLPBB!!!! :cool: :D ;)
I'll leave the topic-derailing shotgun/emergency exits ramble alone for now. :D
One clarification: this ain't FS3. There is no story being built towards, which is a prime factor in the FS series. It is a user-made engine, 100% compatabile with FS2 data files as well as with enhancements to them, that will serve as a frame to which others can tack campaigns, ships, etc.
With that out of the way, thanks for the input - I hope for the best!
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Valin, welcome to HLP. It's a real honour to have you here. :)
I must say, this is very volatile ground at the moment. There's a lot to consider, especially with the relationship between THQ, Interplay and Volition being... well, unsure.
Hopefully this will come to fruition. It'd be great to have you around, Valin. Enojy your stay. :nod:
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Valin that actually sounds very good, and it gives us Programmer Concentrate :D
but: do you have Linux Support native?
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Hey Valin :)
(that guys' my boss :) )
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Greetings Valin.
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tacking on fs2 campaigns to a user-made engine? sounds great, so you could say, make an enhanced version of Warzone to tie in with the enhanced capabilities of this engine?
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Originally posted by Turnsky
tacking on fs2 campaigns to a user-made engine? sounds great, so you could say, make an enhanced version of Warzone to tie in with the enhanced capabilities of this engine?
That's the general idea, yup. :)
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sweet :cool:
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Originally posted by Turnsky
sweet :cool:
Yup. I love that word. So expressive, in such a small space... *sigh* lol
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Well, using an existing engine is something Kazan seems to be against.
CS is one of the choices that I suggested, Kaz said he looked at it. TQ is cheap, but it does cost 100 per programmer, usually a non-starter for projects like this. They also have some licensing issues.
One careful thing to note: Descent 4 is not going to be free, They plan on CD and DVD distribution thru a real publisher. That was NOT my impression from the "project owner" of the intent of this project. The commercial aspect means that they have to wrestle to (C) demon alot earlier.
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So... we're simply creating another game engine from scratch, and not taking time to reverse engineer existing ones, yes? Please?
If the answer is no, gimme a minute to track dowm the .wd extractor forum on NEWST. It's been more than a year, and they have yet to make significant progress in figuring out how these things were put together...
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IMHO its better to build your own because the person who built it knows exactly where everything is, and how it does what. Plus, no licencing issues with the engine will ever come up.
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Using a well documented engine actually cuts dev time.
Making one from scratch is not an easy task. Doable, obviously, just time consuming.
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Originally posted by Inquisitor
That was NOT my impression from the "project owner" of the intent of this project. The commercial aspect means that they have to wrestle to (C) demon alot earlier.
It stopped being free when it stopped being a TC of Descent 3. Now it's an all out game, and as such, the circumstances have changed. Paying people to work full time on D4 is the only real way to get it moving towards completion, and so, selling it in stores is the obvious requirement.
The copyright problems weren't an issue until very recently, and weren't at all involved in our deciding to go for it all.
Anyway, I apologize to Valin for steering him over here, thought you guys were making FS3.
/me immediately loses interest in project.
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I don't think we know what we want to make, truthfully.
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Well, if you going for a new FS game, you might as well aim high and miss low, than aim low and miss alltogether.
We're using the CS engine. It needs some work to make it how we need it, but shouldn't take too much effort.
I took a look at Torque. 1 big problem with it. Any game you make, HAS to be published by them...read the fine print in the EULA.
D4 is shipping with a complete modding tool we call D4Edit or DIVE. If you tack on FS3 to D4, making mods would be incredibly easy.
As for OS support...hehehehe.
CS supports:
Win32
Linux
BeOS
MacOSX
PS2
DOS
OS/2 Warp
UNIX
Other *nix flavors
(Did I miss any? :P)
That's actually part of our current problem. To MUCH support for too many things. CS has over 30 dlls...that will be fixed for each platform release.
I'd love to help you make the real FS3, and I do think it's possible, but I won't say it'll be easy. It'll be part of a retail package, and as such, you'll have to learn project management from the level of a Game Designer. You'll be expected to write documents, set goals and timeframes.
Game Design isn't all roses and butterflies, it's hard work. If you're not ready to take it on and stick with it even when it gets stressful, don't even bother to think about trying.
BTW, thanks for the big welcome all! It's nice and refreshing from spending time on the DBB where I post any news of D4 and a flamewar breaks out.
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Actually I think that we are intending this to be a freeware open-source type of thing, according to the current plan anyway... ;)
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well u are talking a lot of good and valid points, and bad ponts (haven't read all the treads), but does anyone of you have ever seen the VERAS STRIKE ENGIEN, if not go to http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/ ask the guy for some tips. you all shoud go there and check it up
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Or try to ask this people http://mods.firstones.com/ifh/
They have also made a very goog engine.
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I would be interested in helping, but at the moment I think my C++ skills are inadequate to the task as I'm mainly used to Windows programming with Borland C++ Builder. I could test any programs that are made though, I can crash just about anything. (And actually managed to get into the credits of MV in my initial foray into modding. :)) I am, and will be, learning more about C++ under Linux and likely SDL and Open GL so maybe I could be of use in the future.
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Originally posted by Styxx
MVE must be the crappiest movie encoder since flic.... :D :p
Do you need to pay any liscence to encode "commercial" movies in DivX? I know that you can use the encoder for free when you're not making any profits...
Why are you using such old stuff like this?
Try WMV and Enjoy QUALITY with a free encoder.
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Originally posted by Inquisitor
Well, using an existing engine is something Kazan seems to be against.
Actually, using an exsisting one seems not to bad an idea, now I think of it. i realise that Kaz probably wants to learn fully 3d coding, but a lot of companies use altered versions of other enginexs- like Raven (who modfied the Q3 engine for Jed Knight, Soldier of Fortune, etc).
Maybe reverse engineering a (probably very simple) freeware exsiting engine could be of use?
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Originally posted by Zarax
Why are you using such old stuff like this?
Try WMV and Enjoy QUALITY with a free encoder.
Except WMV probably wouldn't work with Linux. I also get the impression that Kazan isn't too fond of Microsoft.
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Jeez...just use Bink.
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Originally posted by Valin Halcyon
Jeez...just use Bink.
yeah, it's good, and it's free, and... well, every game company uses that for their trailers, I guess it's for a reason :p
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The FS FOREVER is a great idea. A new engine - even better, but it will have to be done right!
It has to be as fast as possible, so we can make really large, legendary battles with tons of ships.
That means usage of all tricks, such as not rendering objects(or parts of objects) that are not on the screen, or cannot be seen from the players angle (if you look at a ship from the left, the right side wont be renderd), and so on...
Hope that you programmers are up to the job.
Good luck people!
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EDIT - I should post stuff to the right thread in the future.....ACK! It's 4am - BED, I need to go to BED!
--TurboNed
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Bink.. bink sucks large..
DivX or Die :P
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Originally posted by Kazan
Bink.. bink sucks large..
DivX or Die :P
DivX is a CPU hog at hires, whereas Bink &/or Smacker were built from the ground up to blaze through frames at high speed on relatively low CPU.
--TurboNed
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I have a Pentium III 600mhz and decoding a DivX smooth stretched to 1600x1200 it's only running around 25%.. DivX is fine
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Maybe arguing about the finer points of video codecs can wait for a while :)
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Resource-hogging movie formats are probably okay as they are not going to be played during the game itself but between missions, where the processor does not have any in-game floating point tasks. As long as they are not really bad in that respect. ;)
One thing that I wanted to mention earlier but forgot: lets try to add support for ingame resolutions other than 640x480 and 1024x768. The menus can remain at the currently supported resolutions (maybe there can be an option to switch between the menu resolution as well as the game resolution), but the game itself should support others as well. Should be fairly easy to do. ;)
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Again, from working with Torque, the video resolution capability is determined by the engines evaluation of your card.
So, on my test machine with out put to a TV monitor, I get 640x480 and 800x600 as my selectable resolutions, but on my dev machine here, I get 640 up to 12something and above.
Both machines have a GF2 MX400, just one is output to a TV monitor.
Just another illustration (from an engine we are unlikely to use for the final product ;)).
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Guess the best idea would be to make FS3... :D
But heck, Kazan, know that we're @ll with ya! :nod:
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Couple o' quick points:
Interface should be a set resolution, not a varied one like FS2. That gave no lack of headaches to mission makers, who put too much text in a briefing and the player couldn't read it all, or too little and it looked like a waste of a briefing screen. Set the interface resolution at 800x600, IMHO, and leave it at that. One set of interface graphics will be simpler, too.
DivX can be used for both tween-mission cutscenes and in-game animations - just set 2 different compression levels/standards, one with a high CPU overhead, and one with a low one. :D
I'll post more when I get back into the swing of things... the army is tiring even when you're not doing anything. :)
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Well, I've read this evening the post (not entirely!:) , but I have to say the idea is GREAT.
I have been playing Fs2 a lot, and really love the idea of extending its usability ad libitum (I really hated to give up X-Wing and Tie Fighter...), but let me offer you just a little suggestion:
I am into the Linux community since 1996, and I have seen zillions projects born and disappear, and the most sad ones where the one "died in the middle", not too early, not enough late to allow use...:(
This is a HUGE project, as everybody understands, so perhaps just start with something that might involve a lot of people at beginning (the already proposed "demos that work"), and do call in the Linux people who are absolutely longing for games like Fs2!
They would provide *great* advice on what to do/don't and how to limit our dreams to reality...
My best wishes for this magnificent work,
Azoele
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first: it'll be multi res
second: im already working on a renderer
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Well, I offered my help...which I believe to be the best hope for FS3..FSF whatever.
Good luck, don't look too far ahead, or you'll trip over your own boots.
Get an engine first, look at it even if you're not going to use it and build your own, get familliar with your engine and take it one step at a time. As Daveb mentioned, just get a simple menu and 3D display working first. Worry about effects and features later...
As a appended offer, Orbital runs a group called XtremeBuilder for exactly what you're doing here, making mods for existing games. Take a short look at the XtremeBuilder FAQ on the new Orbital BB at www.descent4.net .
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What would be really good is if it was totally back compatiable with FS2 so we can play FS2 with bumpmaps etc and therefore play FS1 who's data has been brought upto date.
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did you see the date/timestamp on this thread?
FS2FE is _DEAD_ I SLAUGHTERED IT
I'm working on OpenPrivateer now
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:wtf: the hell... ?
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Originally posted by Kazan
did you see the date/timestamp on this thread?
FS2FE is _DEAD_ I SLAUGHTERED IT
I'm working on OpenPrivateer now
lol, obviously, you didn't ;)
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Originally posted by Kazan
did you see the date/timestamp on this thread?
FS2FE is _DEAD_ I SLAUGHTERED IT
I'm working on OpenPrivateer now
Comeon now.. I posted that ages ago when I was new and didnt know what was going on
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It was most likely someone voting in the poll, which bumps it. Won't happen again.