Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: Insomniac34 on February 24, 2010, 10:42:01 am
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So we know where are roughly a dozen Hecate class destroyers in the Terran fleet. I would imagine most of the Orions have been decomissioned, and they only keep a few around as backups for extra firepower in the event of another Shivan incursion or until more Titans and Raynors are completed.
So from what I understand, the Titans are the "carriers" of the fleet, supplementing the Hecates with additional fighters and bombers and a decent array of anti capital ship weapons. And the Raynors are specified Shivan destroyer killers.
So, how many Titans and Raynors, roughly, are in the Terran fleet at the time of Blue Planet? 1 each? 2 of each?
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I think we decided that the GTVA has phased out the Orions completely in favor of the Raynor design, and that the Hecates are on their way out as well.
That being said, we haven't really thought about it yet. We know how many ships of each class are operating in and around Sol, but as for the rest of the GTVA, we do not know.
My personal estimate, which is NOT CANON for BP, is that the GTVA managed to build only 5 or less each of the Raynors and Titans. In our backstory, the GTVA went through a massive economic crisis in the aftermath of FS2, so they don't really have the funding to build a massive advanced fleet (which is why there are only two new fighter designs in AoA, one of them rather cheap, the other one an evolution of an existing design) to replace the old one, and keeping the old one operational is becoming an ever-increasing strain on the budget.
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I think we decided that the GTVA has phased out the Orions completely in favor of the Raynor design, and that the Hecates are on their way out as well.
That being said, we haven't really thought about it yet. We know how many ships of each class are operating in and around Sol, but as for the rest of the GTVA, we do not know.
My personal estimate, which is NOT CANON for BP, is that the GTVA managed to build only 5 or less each of the Raynors and Titans. In our backstory, the GTVA went through a massive economic crisis in the aftermath of FS2, so they don't really have the funding to build a massive advanced fleet (which is why there are only two new fighter designs in AoA, one of them rather cheap, the other one an evolution of an existing design) to replace the old one, and keeping the old one operational is becoming an ever-increasing strain on the budget.
Surely it would be foolish to phase out the Hecates? While not suitable for direct capital ship combat with the Shivans, their massive hangar bays and decent firepower should necessitate upgrades, not decomissioning. Like you said, I would imagine that the financial crisis would dictate the extension of the Hecate's life to supplement the new vessels, not its removal from service. If they cant afford new fighter designs then how could they afford to replace a dozen Hecates, which are only like 30 years old?
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There is only very little you can do to improve the Hecas' combat effectivenes. It's general design means that you need a lot of AAA installations to cover it. The simpler, more streamlined shape of the Titan allows better defensive coverage, while at the same time making construction and maintenance cheaper. As I see it, the Hecate is a failed design offshoot of the Colossus project, far too complex and fancy for real combat duty. The Titan improves upon it in nearly every aspect of operation.
Also note that I didn't say they all were replaced. I think there's a gradual replacement process going on, where instead of doing major repairs or upgraded, ships are simply replaced and retired (probably mothballed).
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Keep in mind that this is all non-canonical speculation.
I'll throw in my two cents, which is that there are a lot - probably more than a dozen - Hecates in active service, all heavily focused on fighter operations. Orions have been rolled back but not yet completely retired; they're pretty much worthless against their Shivan opposites (the Ravana) and they're severely undergunned against fighters but they still have a lot of firepower.
I don't think the Hecate is on its way out so much as on its way sideways. It's a good carrier. I more or less agree with The_E's notion that they're not being actively retired.
As for the Titans and Raynors, there aren't many yet. Same with the advanced corvettes and cruisers. We're going with a less is more approach and trying to invest a lot of worth and character in relatively few ships. I don't want to divulge the exact numbers, but they do exist.
One thing I will disagree with The_E on is the idea that we haven't thought about it yet. We've actually put quite a bit of thought in. ;) (We maintain fairly complete OrBats for both factions in Sol, for instance.)
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One thing I will disagree with The_E on is the idea that we haven't thought about it yet. We've actually put quite a bit of thought in. ;) (We maintain fairly complete OrBats for both factions in Sol, for instance.)
Note that I said that we know how many of these ships are around Sol. It's all the other areas of the GTVA we know nothing about. AFAIK, we haven't really discussed those yet :P
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I'm pretty sure it's either assumed or mentioned in FS canon that the GTVA Fleets are divided among the most inhabited systems, with the size of a system's population and its resources dictating how many and how advanced of a fleet it harbors, if any at all. Scarcely populated systems maintain small defense fleets, while totally useless systems (think Gamma Draconis) are rarely visited.
Thats how I look at it at least. I think the Vasudans have a smaller number of systems under their control, and hence, I would imagine each of their systems has at least a Hatshepsut in it.
Speaking of them, I assume the Vasudans haven't really built any new destroyers since Capella, and instead focused their resources on upgrading their existing Hatshepsut force? How many Hatshepsuts would you venture to guess exists?
'
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To the contrary; the Vasudans have been far more successful than the Terrans at updating and expanding their military. The Vasudan Medjai maintains a number of new ship designs.
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Yep. The Vasudans came out of Capella pretty much intact; they have been de facto carrying the Alliance in the time between Capella and AoA.
Now, we're not going to show you those new designs just yet (since they are scheduled to make an appearance in BP3), but rest assured that the Vasudans will return and kick some ass.
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YAY! kick some ass, fishhead stile!
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wow, the Vasudans must be pretty powerful if the Terrans' 20ish destroyers is considered "not intact". :eek2:
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Economically intact. The Terran part of the GTVA suffered the most under the upheavals following Capella. The Vasudan territory was never even infringed on, and the Vasudan Empire as a whole came through that ordeal almost intact (with just a few ships being lost).
They didn't have to deal with a quarter of a billion refugees, and the jumpnet restructuring following the Nova, after all.
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Also, they had no intrest in building a portal using a technology reaserched just enough to do it.
The Sol portal was retty much a bottomless well with no real use other than reconnecting one system to the rest of universe, for no clear purpose (in layman's terms, a waste of huge amounts of time and money, which could have been spent in better ways) from their point of view. Terran behaviour must had seemed a bit ridiculus to them, spending millions of whatever GTVA uses as currency mostly because of nostalgia.
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Well, bear in mind that Sol had a massive and presumably intact industrial and population base, matching or outstrippping the rest of the GTA at the time the node was sealed according to canonical information (assuming the most parsimonious reading of the word 'bulk'.)
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i know it puts a human spin on vasudan psychology but they would probably understand the drive to build the portal, lets face it what would any vasudan do to be able to visit vasuda prime before the attack?
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If we go with BP's interpretation of Vasudan philosophy, they don't have to go back to Vasuda Prime - everything exists and will always exist, just in a different point of time. Reminds me of the aliens in Slaughterhouse Five.
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I don't know, they'd probably love to go back to Vasuda primer, if only for their libraries. Given that Vasudans eject escape pods filled with not people, but records, it makes sense.
I'd feel that Vasudans could probably relate to wanting to go back to their homeworld and study its history.
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If the Orions are phased out, I can understand that, but Hecates ... that's cutting it a bit too soon, don't you think?
Bear in mind that Orions served the Terrans for four decades, probably more. At around the time of 2365, they were only starting to be phased out by the Deimos and Hecate, which were new designs back then. Given this tack, and the fact that Hecate destroyers are a little more effective than Orion destroyers, the GTVA would probably only replace them near 2410. In other words, during BP, they should serve as the backbone of the Terran side of the GTVA.
From my point of view, in 2389, the GTVA would probably only have about 2 or 3 Raynor destroyers, and possibly about 3 to 5 Titan destroyers. Any more and they may probably be too strong for the UEF to last for over a year.
I don't know, they'd probably love to go back to Vasuda primer, if only for their libraries. Given that Vasudans eject escape pods filled with not people, but records, it makes sense.
I'd feel that Vasudans could probably relate to wanting to go back to their homeworld and study its history.
That would probably the only reason. However, the Intelligence section of the Director's Cut database can probably explain why they no longer have any desire to reinhabit Vasuda Prime, if that is even possible in the first place.
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That only reason would probably be enough.
In the hypothetical example with Sol and Vasuda switched, the Vasudans would likely seek to construct a subspace portal to reconnect with their homeworld (and its history). Even more so especially since there would likely be Vasudans still living there.
I merely disagree with what Dragon is claiming.
The Vasudans may not understand the Terrans' reasoning behind why they wish to construct the portal, but I feel that they would understand that if their situations were reversed, they'd likely want the same thing, merely for different reasons. I don't feel that the Vasudans would be content with discarding a significant portion of their population, knowledge, and industrial base because it'd take some resources to get back to them if they were put into the same scenario.
yes, you could make the argument that they're not in that position, but doesn't that make Vasudans sound like asshats if they go "Yeah, if this happened to us, we'd like your help, but since it happened to you, we're not helping you."?
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The Vasudans could have - and probably did - make the case that returning to Earth was secondary to securing the alliance economically and militarily, though.
And then Petrarch went and put his foot in his mouth to Khonsu's face.
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And then Petrarch went and put in his mouth to Khonsu's face.
TMI???
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Write a fanfic plz. :P
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Fixed.
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On the other hand, before Petrarch focussed all the humans on the return to earth, the terran part of the GTVA was just inches from completely falling apart, so it's not like they had much of a choice.
If they abondened the portal project, there would have been riots all over the place. And the longer they took to finish it, the more restless the population would have become.
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5 Raynors 2 Titans. Two more Raynors and a Titan on the ways still
Artibrarily selected, but the basic point is that the Raynor is a direct combat destroyer. If the Orions have mostly been retired, then the GTVA has no other option for when you've got to kill that target, fast, no screwups possible. They need Raynors if they want to have a force that can do that now that the Orions are gone.
The Titan is however a ship that mainly carries fighters but also can overwhelm smaller craft quickly with its forward armament, and is a capable of limited all-aspect self-defense. The GTVA already has a bunch of ships that fit that description; they're called Hecates. Sure, the Titan does it better, but the Hecates are still in their first decade or so of service and the GTVA does not have the ability to replace them rapidly.
Admittedly, the Hecate did prove to be something of a blunder in FS2 as it wasn't adequately able to defend itself against raiding enemy capital craft, but the Titan's torpedos give all-aspect defense somewhat better than the Hecate's TSlashes. Maybe it's enough. Maybe it's not. I'd have to set up versions of Argonautica and Proving Grounds with a Titan in place of the Aquitaine to begin finding out, but Forced Entry would seem to say it's enough.
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I think that they have more than two Titans, there's the GTD Temeraire, at least one Titan in WiH and, most likely (if they kept the class naming convention), the class namesake, GTD Titan. The one in WiH isn't the GTD Titan, so there are at least 3 of them.
That only reason would probably be enough.
In the hypothetical example with Sol and Vasuda switched, the Vasudans would likely seek to construct a subspace portal to reconnect with their homeworld (and its history). Even more so especially since there would likely be Vasudans still living there.
I merely disagree with what Dragon is claiming.
The Vasudans may not understand the Terrans' reasoning behind why they wish to construct the portal, but I feel that they would understand that if their situations were reversed, they'd likely want the same thing, merely for different reasons. I don't feel that the Vasudans would be content with discarding a significant portion of their population, knowledge, and industrial base because it'd take some resources to get back to them if they were put into the same scenario.
yes, you could make the argument that they're not in that position, but doesn't that make Vasudans sound like asshats if they go "Yeah, if this happened to us, we'd like your help, but since it happened to you, we're not helping you."?
I think that they would consider building a portal secondary to securing their current economic situation, starting work on it when their economy was stable and capable of supporting such investition. And they are helping Terrans, by keeping GTVA going in the crisis. Also, Vasudans could approach building a portal in a different way, maybe by building a smaller version of it, just to allow communication throught the unstable node (of course, if that's possible).
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I doubt that a smaller portal is possible. There is no canon information either way, but I think the portal must be around the node. A smaller portal wouldn't be around, but inside the node, thus scrambling the node with it's moving parts rather than stabilising it.
Might be a way to block an existing node though...
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This depends on several things we have no canon info on. Personally, I think it's not so much the size of the Knossos that's a problem, it's the R&D required to develop the tech to develop the tech to build the damn thing.
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What about the UEF? What did they do with all their Fenrises and Orions?
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What about the UEF? What did they do with all their Fenrises and Orions?
Didn't they only had like 1 Orion class to begin with? The 1st fleet's GTD washington if I recall correctly.
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I don't recall the name Washington from anywhere, might have missed it. But given that BP portrays Sol has really being the industrial and economical heart of the GTA when it collapsed, I doubt the GTA would only have 1 destroyer in the system...
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The BP-canonical name of at least 1 (if there is more than one) First Fleet Orion is actually given in BP:AoA. See if you can find it.
But given that BP portrays Sol has really being the industrial and economical heart of the GTA when it collapsed
Actually, FreeSpace 2 does that. BP didn't really add anything in that respect.
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The BP-canonical name of at least 1 (if there is more than one) First Fleet Orion is actually given in BP:AoA. See if you can find it.
But given that BP portrays Sol has really being the industrial and economical heart of the GTA when it collapsed
Actually, FreeSpace 2 does that. BP didn't really add anything in that respect.
Well then, that makes it all the more curious. Sol being as important as it is, why only leave 1 destroyer back there?
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Who said there was only one?
If there were, though - I imagine it'd be because you could put N destroyers in Sol and it wouldn't help you at all. If the enemy - whether Vasudans or Shivans - is that close, you've already lost. Particularly if it's the Lucifer.
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Who said there was only one?
The Spoon did. :P
So the main GTA fleet's probably scattered throughout the galaxy? Makes sense, 'specially given how the Bastion was supposed to be the last hope for Earth and all...
Guess that explains why the UEF don't have any old GW-era stuff lying around.
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Somebody go figure out what the Orion defending Earth is called in BP. I think it's not the Washington.
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GTD Washington is the Destroyer that appear at the very end of FSPort. This mission having been added for fun I guess, it's definitely not canon.
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Apparently the one in 'Lucifer' in BP didn't get its nameplate applied. :(
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Since this has turned into a story discussion. I have to ask how weak the Terran contingent of the GTVA is in comparison to the Vasudan one. It seems to me to strain credibility a bit that the Terrans after losing Sol and Capella would let the Vasudans militarize to such an extent. A mere three systems run by Admiral Bosch had enough Terran firepower to keep the GTVA at bay for years. I find it hard to believe losing one system, even with the economic problems that come with it, would deplete the GTVA Terrans to such an extent.
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GTD Minnow??
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The Minnow was not in Sol.
Since this has turned into a story discussion. I have to ask how weak the Terran contingent of the GTVA is in comparison to the Vasudan one. It seems to me to strain credibility a bit that the Terrans after losing Sol and Capella would let the Vasudans militarize to such an extent. A mere three systems run by Admiral Bosch had enough Terran firepower to keep the GTVA at bay for years. I find it hard to believe losing one system, even with the economic problems that come with it, would deplete the GTVA Terrans to such an extent.
Read 'The Rift' on the BP website. I believe 'Balance of Power' also has some information.
The gap between the two in military power probably isn't enormous, but it is significant. The economic gap is larger.
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BP "Alterna-verse"©colonol dekker is not tied to the canon/existing fanon as in it the Earth was rendered lifeless, so it could be any Orion at all. Could even be the Eisenhower.
I assume there is an actual GTD "Raynor" out there somewhere too?
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BP "Alterna-verse"©colonol dekker is not tied to the canon/existing fanon as in it the Earth was rendered lifeless, so it could be any Orion at all. Could even be the Eisenhower.
Indeed. We did in fact have a name for this destroyer and it was supposed to go on a nameplate in 'Lucifer'.
I assume there is an actual GTD "Raynor" out there somewhere too?
Y'know, I'm not sure about that. Aside from one-off ships like the Iceni and Colossus, we've never seen 'class ships' in FreeSpace.
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Since this has turned into a story discussion. I have to ask how weak the Terran contingent of the GTVA is in comparison to the Vasudan one. It seems to me to strain credibility a bit that the Terrans after losing Sol and Capella would let the Vasudans militarize to such an extent. A mere three systems run by Admiral Bosch had enough Terran firepower to keep the GTVA at bay for years. I find it hard to believe losing one system, even with the economic problems that come with it, would deplete the GTVA Terrans to such an extent.
Read the prose on the BP site. Suffice it to say that the economic disaster that was Capella had ripple effects through a significant portion of the Terran territories.
The Terrans didn't "allow" the Vasudans to get that far ahead, it's just that only the Vasudans were able to fulfill the defensive commitments the GTVA mandated. The Terrans simply couldn't keep up anymore in terms of technology and new construction.
Look at it this way: The first few engagements of FS2 were incredibly one-sided. With the deployment of the Colossus, the Rebellion was ended in a matter of days. Then the Colossus faced the biggest threat seen so far, and although damaged, managed to beat it off. At that point, morale was at an all-time high.
Then the Shivans sent 80 greatest threats in the GTVA's general direction. What followed was an ordered execution of prepared contingency plans (from the Admiralty's POV) or a mad dash for survival from certain death by beam-ownage (from the Civvie's POV). The latter opinion gained more traction as time went by, especially after the Shivans blew up a friggin sun for no adequately explained reason.
What followed was a period of serious economic uncertainty, like the Aftermath of 9/11 times much. People were afraid to invest, causing businesses to fail, causing people to hord their assets, etc etc.
Building the Sol Gate, while an enormous investment, would fulfill several purposes. One, the technological development necessary would probably yield some other benefits. Two, the prospect of being reunited with the Homeworld gave the people something undoubtedly positive to look forward to. Three, reestablishing contact with the massive economy of Earth would give the GTVA economy a much needed shot in the arm.
With all that money going toward the gate project, military spending had to take a back seat.
The Vasudans, obviously, were not under such constraints. They could concentrate on keeping the Alliance running.
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GTD Defender of Earth
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GTD Defender of Earth
(http://*snip*)
^:yes:
Young'uns won't get the reference.
I'd like to see a "first of it's class" in WiH.
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I snipped it away with my Scissors of ModerationTM.
Srsly, I think that's against forum rules.
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What did you snip away?
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What did you snip away?
If I know my internet: Tubgirl.
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AWwww :wtf:
Not again.................
For the record it was a picture of mandrake from Defenders of the Earth. :nervous:
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Well that makes more sense. One would think though the human members of GTVA high command would keep a few ace up their sleaves though. Afterall, GTI managed to build a Lucifer killer (albiet already under construction) with just black budget stuff. It wasn't constructed anywhere near Sol to boot.
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Believe me, it's not like the Terrans have been idle. I'd assume there are some pretty impressive contingencies in place around the Vega node in Capella.
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I guess there could be ongoing brush wars in places like Procyon and Adhara at the time of WiH?.
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Like PI and Derelict? :nervous:
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;-)
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We aren't prepared to divulge the complete OrBat at the moment, but Tev logistics limit them to about five active destroyers and their battle groups in Sol at one time - they can't physically move enough ordinance and fuel through the node to support flight operations past that point.
The UEF has three destroyers and a lot of frigates (probably about 30?).
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GTD Washington is the Destroyer that appear at the very end of FSPort. This mission having been added for fun I guess, it's definitely not canon.
I didn't played FS1, just the port so I kinda assumed it was canon.
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No, that mission's a little Easter-egg credits sequence that the Port team created; the retail campaign ends after the Lucifer's destruction cutscene. I think it was as much out of necessity for maintaining the Port's retail compatibility as anything else, since the retail FS2 engine has some sort of hard-coded behavior involving campaign-ending cutscenes.
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;-)
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We don't really care what other campaigns do, though I'm sure we'll play and enjoy many of them.
And no, it's not strange that it's so small. The UEF military has not exactly been in a growth phase for the past thirty years.
Our approach is to invest as much screen time, character, and gameplay as we can into as few ships as possible, thereby making them feel more meaningful and 'real', rather than like throwaway destroyers.
Destroyers should not be casually spent. Losing one should be a major blow. (To this end, all our destroyers are heavily escorted and make use of jamming, smart subspace jumps, and fighter deployment to safeguard themselves.)
Besides, the UEF has many many frigates, which serve as mini-destroyers and are far more flexible.
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That's why wing commander 3 worked so well. It focused on a task force and allowed you to bond with it.
I suspect that BP appealled to me for the same reason.
So. . . . . . . WiH has you start on a Karuna I imagine?
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Not telling!
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Ahah!
I read between your words and deduce my own conclusions which will forever remain my own secret.
Anyway. Titan VS Raynor.
Who wins?
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Ahah!
I read between your words and deduce my own conclusions which will forever remain my own secret.
Anyway. Titan VS Raynor.
Who wins?
Just tested it, the Raynor almost every time. The Titan has rediculous forward firepower which severely damages the Raynor, but once the battle goes broadside, its not even close. The Raynor's Eos launchers neuter the Titan's beams and its broadside MBlues and Bslashes tear into her.
The only situation where the Titan wins is if both ships engage eachother pointing face forward from a long distance. In this case the Titan's immense forward array has enough time to garner a second shot, which ends the Raynor's life.
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Destroyers should not be casually spent. Losing one should be a major blow. (To this end, all our destroyers are heavily escorted and make use of jamming, smart subspace jumps, and fighter deployment to safeguard themselves.)
And that is how I like it. I still remember what shock it when I played FS1 for the first time and the Galatea was destroyed. I was just sitting in front of my screen well after the Lucifer jumped out dumbstruck, hardly beliefing my eyes. And it's still an emotional part when replaying it, unlike the destruction of the Psamtik or Colossus. At least the Psamtik death scene had the shock moment of a secend Sathanas appearing, but the Colossus... nothing. Especially that stupid: We will buy the Bastion all the time we can... which is about 10 seconds. As if the shivans couldn't just send another one of their 80 Juggernought after the Bastion if they really wanted to bring her down.
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That is nothing. Strange that the number is so small. All the other campaigns that include re-establishing contact with Sol make it so Sol has much more than that. This also means that the largest ship class they have is destroyer class, right?
Destroyers are power-projection assets. In Sol, there is no call to project power, to move large groups of fightercraft and their attached logistics and technical support to distant systems. Fighter support can be centrally located in planetary or orbital bases, easing supply and defensive problems, yet still able to reach all possible deployment areas. A third of the traditional role of the destroyer, that of roving fighter base, is useless when confined to one system. Even the inclusion of small fighter groups aboard the Karunas is an expression of the desirabilty of organic escort, not because the UEF has any need to move fighters.
I would honestly expect a UED to serve either a battle direction or shock assault role exclusively, as there's very little reason for one to have the sort of fightercraft wing to offer serious power projection.
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I know there are only three, but is there a UED class name? Solaris has been mentioned once or twice.
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They are indeed classified as Solaris-class vessels.
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There being a UED Solaris, first of its class?
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While we are not generally following the "lead ship" rule (There is no GTD Titan or GTD Raynor, for example), in this case, we have.
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That is nothing. Strange that the number is so small. All the other campaigns that include re-establishing contact with Sol make it so Sol has much more than that. This also means that the largest ship class they have is destroyer class, right?
Destroyers are power-projection assets. In Sol, there is no call to project power, to move large groups of fightercraft and their attached logistics and technical support to distant systems. Fighter support can be centrally located in planetary or orbital bases, easing supply and defensive problems, yet still able to reach all possible deployment areas. A third of the traditional role of the destroyer, that of roving fighter base, is useless when confined to one system. Even the inclusion of small fighter groups aboard the Karunas is an expression of the desirabilty of organic escort, not because the UEF has any need to move fighters.
I would honestly expect a UED to serve either a battle direction or shock assault role exclusively, as there's very little reason for one to have the sort of fightercraft wing to offer serious power projection.
Pretty much exactly correct. The Solaris destroyers are fairly formidable shock assault platforms (though they spend most of their time as deterrents). However, it's worth pointing out that UEF fighters are high-intensity and low-endurance, so they need to RTB fairly often. Solarises are equipped to handle lots of rapid flight ops in order to keep sorties running quickly.
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;-)
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We have a pretty extensive history of what happened in Sol after it was cut off, and it was not by and large an environment that would have favored a massive military buildup.
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I'm guessing system wide government struggled to adapt to suddenly being cut off from the wider GTA meaning shortages of materials rare in the sol system, civil unrest with the occasional civil war???
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Yeah I don't see how the UEF can really hope for long-term victory. Unless the Shivans return somewhere else in GTVA space, I don't see how they can possibly win. Strength in numbers is nice and dandy, but superior weaponry too? Hmm.
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;-)
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There are two possibilities for the UEF to win I guess. The GTVA is on the brink of economic collapse. If the UEF can draw the war out long enough, the GTVA might become unable to sustain the offensive.
Secend possibility is, that the GTVA civies learn of the war and all the unhappyness that was close to getting the GTVA government thrown down (which was only barely prevented by focussing the people on returning to Sol, if I interprete the proses correctly) will erupt back in full froce and cause the ones who initiated the attack to be driven form office and replaced with people who then sign a peace treaty with Sol.
Or maybe the will really lose the war...
There is also a very big possibility that Darius will do something I really don't expect ;)
But however it will continue, I'm really looking forward to it.
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;-)
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Not to mention that the GTVA is probably much more skilled and had more fighting experience with Shivans.
Already mentioned earlier. GTVA Pilots are more skilled than UEF pilots, but the last engagement against Shivans was 18 years ago. Only very few pilots who were active back then are still on the front lines during WiH, they mostly are filling command slots or run training cadres.
However, fighting Shivans and fighting Humans are two very different things, both morally and in terms of challenge. The tactics employed differ somewhat.
Secend possibility is, that the GTVA civies learn of the war and all the unhappyness that was close to getting the GTVA government thrown down (which was only barely prevented by focussing the people on returning to Sol, if I interprete the proses correctly) will erupt back in full froce and cause the ones who initiated the attack to be driven form office and replaced with people who then sign a peace treaty with Sol.
Nope. The GTVA public is at the wrong end of a very capable propaganda machine. While most of them probably don't like the idea of having to fight a war, their government has put forth some rather convincing evidence that this war is necessary for the survival of the GTVA.
Never forget that there are literally no free communication channels from Earth to the rest of the GTVA. EVERYTHING coming through the Delta Serpentis Node is scrutinized and filtered to a degree that countries here on Earth can only dream of.
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There are two possibilities for the UEF to win I guess. The GTVA is on the brink of economic collapse. If the UEF can draw the war out long enough, the GTVA might become unable to sustain the offensive.
Secend possibility is, that the GTVA civies learn of the war and all the unhappyness that was close to getting the GTVA government thrown down (which was only barely prevented by focussing the people on returning to Sol, if I interprete the proses correctly) will erupt back in full froce and cause the ones who initiated the attack to be driven form office and replaced with people who then sign a peace treaty with Sol.
Or maybe the will really lose the war...
There is also a very big possibility that Darius will do something I really don't expect ;)
But however it will continue, I'm really looking forward to it.
This is a good analysis. I'm not saying that either of these scenarios is remotely correct, but, yes they are to varying degrees possible. :yes:
And yes, The_E's caveats hold true, although I want to point out that the GTVA is in general just better at war - not because of philosophical differences, but because of institutional ones.
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Non of the scenarios? Inclusing the "Darius will surprise us" one? :P
Never forget that there are literally no free communication channels from Earth to the rest of the GTVA. EVERYTHING coming through the Delta Serpentis Node is scrutinized and filtered to a degree that countries here on Earth can only dream of.
That's exactly what I was expecting and meant, that they know there is a war going on, but don't know why or how the GTVA fights it. Misformulated again...
Anyway the more the GTVA tries to change the truth, the worse they will be off, should their manipulations ever come to the light, that's what I was trying to say.
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Who knows? They could try painting the UEF and the whole of the Sol system as Neo-Terra... :drevil:
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Why would it be "Neo-Terra"? The idea of Neo-Terra was to create a new center for human civilization based on Polaris. Now that the path to Sol has been reestablished, why would there be a need to create a new Earth if the real Earth is right there?
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Well, think of it this way: the GTA is no more. It was replaced with a completely different government that completely changed the way Sol was run. Ergo, a "new Earth", Neo-Terra.
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Well then it'd be an entity completely separate to Bosch's Neo-Terra except in name.
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Well then it'd be an entity completely separate to Bosch's Neo-Terra except in name.
Pfsh, as if something that glaringly obvious would get past a propaganda machine.
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Who knows? They could try painting the UEF and the whole of the Sol system as Neo-Terra... :drevil:
They don't have to. All they need to do is present the negative sides of Ubuntu and not dwell on the positive side for too long. From the perspective of the average GTVA citizen, the Ubuntu elders present an oppressive, religiously motivated and unelected circle which uses mass brainwashing and eugenics to mold humanity into something they want. It's really, really easy to demonify the Elders, believe me.
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Hmm? Eugenics? When did the Elders promote that?
And I still want the GTVA to win. Hard power > Spirit and Love any day. :drevil:
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They don't. But some aspects of the whole thing might be interpreted as such, if seen from a certain POV.
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If your a fan of humanity, then your pulling for the GTVA to win. I'm pretty sure "hugs, butterflies, and rainbows" won't be nearly as effective against a Shivan destroyer as a Raynor and its battlegroup.
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And I still want the GTVA to win. Hard power > Spirit and Love any day. :drevil:
If your a fan of humanity, then your pulling for the GTVA to win. I'm pretty sure "hugs, butterflies, and rainbows" won't be nearly as effective against a Shivan destroyer as a Raynor and its battlegroup.
It's worth pointing out, though, that soft power generates hard power. A productive, prosperous society begets scientific and industrial advancement. Ubuntu is heavily invested in the free market, constant scientific and social progress, and a simulation-based forecasting system.
It's ironic to see people eating up the GTVA propaganda - Ubuntu clearly has very little to do with hugs, butterflies, and rainbows. And it's a little dispiriting to see that people are just as prone to reduce the world to black-and-white in a fictional setting as in real life.
There is a great deal of ambiguity here, just like in real life. But just like in real life, people are prone to follow their gut for silly, shallow reasons and then construct elaborate intellectual justifications for it.
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Those of you who know Iain M. Banks' Culture novels will know what I mean when I say Beware the nice ones (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BewareTheNiceOnes).
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Luckily I'm not so set in my opinion. I just want the one to win the war, that will give us the better story for BP3 :lol:
That is, if there even is a winner. Maybe they will make peace. And even if the UEF somehow manage to throw the GTVA out of Sol, it would still not be a win, because there would at least still be a cold war if nothing else.
And the hugging hippies opinion is very, very clearly exposed for being a total fabrication by the simple fact that the UEF was able to hold out against the GTVA for two years. If they were absolute pacifists, they wouldn't have starships that powerfull. If the Karuna is anything to judge by, the UEF forces are more powerfull than what the GTVA had during the second shivan incursion (except the Collossus).
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GB, we are eating up the GTVA propaganda because we have no UEF propaganda. Also, what we know from the prose provides a good reason for the war.
1. The GTVA needed the economic and industrial might of Sol in order to bolster their economy to prevent collapse. If the economy of the GTVA collapses, then they can't muster the necessary firepower needed to stop the third Shivan invasion. If that happens, then all the Terrans and Vasudans in the GTVA die, and Sol is left all alone for the Shivans to destroy whenever they feel like.
2. The GTVA feared mass immigration to Sol from the outer colonies, which would leave them unmanned and unprotected when the inevitable third Shivan incursion would come.
3. The Council of Elders are, to be blunt, naive, considering they first thought the GTVA was as enlightened as them, as well as their insistence on diplomatic talks with a clearly hostile GTVA even after the destruction of several UEF frigates and an assault on Neptune.
4. The Ubuntu philosophy could easily be considered pacifistic, which is a death sentence in a galaxy where Terrans and Vasudans are surrounded on all sides by a genocidal alien race with limitless numbers and ships far more powerful than anything Terrans and Vasudans can build in comparable numbers. (At least 80 Sathanes against a single Colossus that took 20 years and a fortune to build.) In a situation like that, a strong and well-supported military is essential to survival, and it looks like the UEF military does not have much backing, at least at the start of the Sol-GTVA War. I doubt the Terran-Vasudan military would receive much backing if Ubuntu took over the GTVA, leading to fatal weakness when the Shivans return.
GB, I would love it if you could provide me with reasons to consider backing the UEF in this war, because so far, from my reading of the prose, it seems like the GTVA needs to win this war as it is the only thing standing between Terrans and Vasudans and a painful death by Shivan beam fire.
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Exactly, you think that. You think it's the only possible conclusion.
And yet there are other people who cannot find a single reason to support the GTVA.
As for seeing more of the Ubuntu side of things, there's a huge amount of writing in internal that we haven't published yet. Because the initial reaction to AoA was that the GTVA seemed like it had become Very Evil, the initial push was to supply the explanations for the GTVA's side of the war.
Now, of course, we've got people who've completely flipped and think the UEF is unsupportable.
To play devil's advocate:
1. So unilaterally conquering it is the best way to secure it? Since when was 'we need it' a justification for war? Maybe they should've just signed a trade agreement.
2. Who are they to impose their will on the people? What kind of government resorts to military force and deception to control its citizenry?
3. When the Shivans are out there, talking things out instead of wasting time and resources on fighting is the considerably more mature approach. You could consider it naivete, or you could see it as a group of very intelligent people desperately trying to achieve the best solution.
4. 'Humanity towards others' is a form of pacifism that does not preclude violence against xenocidal alien life forms. The massive UEF infrastructure could produce a military machine of incredible proportions if turned to that end.
You think the GTVA is doing what's necessary to defend against the Shivans. But from the other perspective, the GTVA has touched off a needless, fratricidal war that's jeopardizing mankind's survival at a critical time.
Put a little thought into it and you'll see why it's more complicated than you believe. There are no clear cut answers here.
People will, of course, pick GTVA or UEF to support; it's the nature of things. But it's important to the story and to us as developers that there be no clear-cut good guys or bad guys.
To that end, I'm happy to argue with anybody who thinks that one side has a clear moral advantage over the other. From one perspective, UEF and GTVA alike are making principled stands. From another, they're both hopelessly compromised - it's hard to stay clean when you're wrestling in the mud.
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;-)
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I think the most likely course that this story will follow is an alliance towards the end of the Earth/GTVA battle, like the EA and GTVA did in the original version of Inferno. Then I can see that being the time that the Shivans show up again, and that is when WiH will end and we will have to wait for ch3 to see what happens.
"Inferno did it this way" has never been a good reason for anything, ever.
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;-)
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We are not discussing particulars of the WiH story, but we are committed to telling a good story that does not rely on hoary tropes.
Bringing in an outside force to resolve such an interesting, ambiguous conflict would cheapen it. I know that as a fan I wanted to see the UEF/GTVA war reach a conclusion on its own terms, not be brought to a premature end by the Shivans.
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;-)
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Now would be a great time to stop trying to fish for answers.
So, back on topic: What kind of battlegroups do Raynors and Titans travel with? With such obvious differences in function, they probably travel with different supporting elements, right?
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Under conservative commanders, Titans act as rear-area deterrents, sortying fighters offensively on raids and in support of installation assaults. The destroyers themselves participate in defensive Jump Five deployments. Their escorts - Chimeras, Aeolus cruisers, and Deimos corvettes - can be deployed as raiders or screens for the destroyer itself.
Under aggressive commanders, the Titans and their Chimera/Bellerophon consorts are used in Shivan-style shock jump tactics. Because modern warships have better jump cycle times, FS2-era warships rarely participate in these tactics.
Raynors serve as main line combatants in battles where sustained presence is needed. They do not have the subspace maneuverability of the Titans, so they are more heavily committed when they jump into a combat area.
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;-)
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We're not discussing the particulars of WiH missions at this time beyond what we've already shown.
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Now would be a great time to stop trying to fish for answers.
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We are not discussing particulars of the WiH story, but we are committed to telling a good story that does not rely on hoary tropes.
Bringing in an outside force to resolve such an interesting, ambiguous conflict would cheapen it. I know that as a fan I wanted to see the UEF/GTVA war reach a conclusion on its own terms, not be brought to a premature end by the Shivans.
Well, the synopsis for WiH did say that two outside forces are bystanders during this conflict...
A young pilot tries to find meaning in a meaningless war. A visionary prophet does all he can to prove false premonitions of events which must not come to pass. A nation struggles to unite its people in an era of peace and prosperity, despite being beset on all sides. Meanwhile, two powerful alien races watch from afar, waiting to see if humankind will fulfill its potential as the Great Creators.
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Translation: The GTVA and UEF are getting one hell of a nasty shock at the end of this campaign.
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That's a pretty comprehensive hypothesis.
I'm happy to wait. . . . .
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It's worth pointing out, though, that soft power generates hard power. A productive, prosperous society begets scientific and industrial advancement. Ubuntu is heavily invested in the free market, constant scientific and social progress, and a simulation-based forecasting system.
But this is meaningless in context. You cannot extemporize a navy and haven't been able to since the 1600s. (In fact it just keeps getting harder to do so.) The one and only possiblity of defense lies in preparedness. The UEF is demonstrably not a power structure that will prepare for the gotterdammerung conflict that a third Shivan encounter needs to be treated as.
And don't quote Banks at me. The situation's not remotely comparable. For one thing, the Culture actually did invest in preparedness.
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But this is meaningless in context. You cannot extemporize a navy and haven't been able to since the 1600s. (In fact it just keeps getting harder to do so.) The one and only possiblity of defense lies in preparedness. The UEF is demonstrably not a power structure that will prepare for the gotterdammerung conflict that a third Shivan encounter needs to be treated as.
Go ahead, then, demonstrate it to me.
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Either the GTVA wins completely, the UEF wins completely, or they form a treaty near the end
Or it comes to a bloody stalemate after which neither side is willing to continue the war, but without any signed peace treaty and the chance of the war re-erupting at a moments notice.
Besides a total victory of the UEF is extremely unlikely.
Getting the GTVA to retreat from Sol? Yes. Unlikely but possible.
Completely defeating the whole GTVA? No way. They can barely hold their own against the Terrans. If they go on the offensive, they'll have to fight the Vasudans too, the two parts of the GTVA are just too intervined for the Vasudans to just stand by if the UEF goes on an offensive in GTVA space. And from the backstory (and forumposts) we learned that the Vasudan military is even stronger than the GTVAs, because of their healthier economy and because they didn't pour massive amounts of ressources into a portal-project.
Something that always bothered me about the GTVA was, that they didn't even give the UEF a chance to prove their assumptions wrong. For fifty years they lived in a isolated system, completely save. The shivans must have become little more than stories to frighten children. Now that the node is open again, the thread of another Shivan attack is much closer and far more real. That alone could easily have been enough to turn the UEF into something the GTVA would see as capable and willing to stand against the Shivans. Now add in information about the seconds Shivan incursion and the GTVA might have gained a willing ally instead of an enemy.
While the diplomatic approach might not seem as likely to succeed as the quick overwhelming military solution the GTVA planned on, it does have it's advantages for sure. For one thing even a quick military victory would have cost lives and material on both sides. And for another a war will inadvertadly create a rift between the factions. Or did they really think that the defeated UEF people will just say "thanks for conquering us", even if there is another Shivan incursion? If the GTVA really wins by subduing the UEF I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of humans join up with the Hammer of Light (both the political and the radical military wings).
Apart form that the war just came at too convenient a time to keep the GTVA high-ups to fully buy that they really only do this for the good of Humanity.
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Completely defeating the whole GTVA? No way. They can barely hold their own against the Terrans. If they go on the offensive, they'll have to fight the Vasudans too, the two parts of the GTVA are just too intervined for the Vasudans to just stand by if the UEF goes on an offensive in GTVA space. And from the backstory (and forumposts) we learned that the Vasudan military is even stronger than the GTVAs, because of their healthier economy and because they didn't pour massive amounts of ressources into a portal-project.
Well, now that brings another thought to mind; the Terran side of the GTVA finally does something so unconscionable, that the Vasudans have to do something.
The Vasudans, however, stubbornly maintained that prophetic abilities amongst their species (including those once claimed by members of the Hammer of Light) were in fact the result of communion with powerful alien beings (The term ‘supernatural’ is never used in Vasudan mythology; the Vasudan view is that anything which occurs is natural and scientific). Ironically, this attitude towards ‘higher powers’ is not dissimilar to that adopted by some factions of the Ubuntu Party Elders.
Possible foreshadowing of a UEF/Vasudan Alliance(or, at least, some kind of non-aggression pact)? The end of Part 2: Project Nagari suggests the Vasudans might well choose to become involved on one side or the other(in the face of that "something unspeakably terrible" due to happen). The dissolution of the GTVA, or a full-scale GTVA-civil war, could even be(or be the cause of, directly or indirectly) that "something unspeakably terrible".
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I doubt anything short of bombing Earth or Mars could bring the Vasudans into actively perticipating in the war on the side of the UEF. Economic sanctions against the Terran worlds are another matter though...
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GB, we are eating up the GTVA propaganda because we have no UEF propaganda. Also, what we know from the prose provides a good reason for the war.
1. The GTVA needed the economic and industrial might of Sol in order to bolster their economy to prevent collapse. If the economy of the GTVA collapses, then they can't muster the necessary firepower needed to stop the third Shivan invasion. If that happens, then all the Terrans and Vasudans in the GTVA die, and Sol is left all alone for the Shivans to destroy whenever they feel like.
2. The GTVA feared mass immigration to Sol from the outer colonies, which would leave them unmanned and unprotected when the inevitable third Shivan incursion would come.
3. The Council of Elders are, to be blunt, naive, considering they first thought the GTVA was as enlightened as them, as well as their insistence on diplomatic talks with a clearly hostile GTVA even after the destruction of several UEF frigates and an assault on Neptune.
4. The Ubuntu philosophy could easily be considered pacifistic, which is a death sentence in a galaxy where Terrans and Vasudans are surrounded on all sides by a genocidal alien race with limitless numbers and ships far more powerful than anything Terrans and Vasudans can build in comparable numbers. (At least 80 Sathanes against a single Colossus that took 20 years and a fortune to build.) In a situation like that, a strong and well-supported military is essential to survival, and it looks like the UEF military does not have much backing, at least at the start of the Sol-GTVA War. I doubt the Terran-Vasudan military would receive much backing if Ubuntu took over the GTVA, leading to fatal weakness when the Shivans return.
GB, I would love it if you could provide me with reasons to consider backing the UEF in this war, because so far, from my reading of the prose, it seems like the GTVA needs to win this war as it is the only thing standing between Terrans and Vasudans and a painful death by Shivan beam fire.
1. If Ubuntu is anything like present day Islam or Christianity, then it has its extremists and the only way to deal with these extremists is through conflict. They see no other light and answer to a higher power. Only conflict can destroy a fanatic religion. Of course, it can also create martyrs and bolster it. WIth the added fact that the spread of this religion could leave humanity more vulnerable to the Shivans, and therefore extermination, I do not blame the GTVA for turning to violence as the answer.
2. See above.
3. Try talking to a fanatic Christian or Muslim or any other religious person. 'Nuff said. Religion = dangerous. All it takes is a small group of fanatics in power.
4. Have no doubts that even if that is true, their pacifist leaning mindset would surely impact the GTVA war industry. Would an Ubuntu-led government embark on a project as massive, expensive and unprecedented as the Colossus project? I don't think so. Sure the Colly herself was sort of an epic failure, but that is the kind of dedication to providing resources to the military that I am sure Ubuntu wouldn't support. Only a military-centric human culture, in my opinion, is capable of holding the Shivans at bay.
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You quoted the wrong thing.
And of course all that is probably what the GTVA's saying, but it's missing a more fundamental point.
Oh, and as a correction, Ubuntu is not a religious ideology. Its members may subscribe to any faith they please. It's more philosophical/spiritual, with a strong rationalist/empirical bent.
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You quoted the wrong thing.
And of course all that is probably what the GTVA's saying, but it's missing a more fundamental point.
Oh, and as a correction, Ubuntu is not a religious ideology. Its members may subscribe to any faith they please. It's more philosophical/spiritual, with a strong rationalist/empirical bent.
Thanks mate on the correction, i guess it has been a while since I've read the awesome prose on the website. What do you mean I quoted the wrong thing? I was responding to your 4 points.
If thats the case, then I let go of my comparisons to contemporary world religions and instead cling to my fear of a pacifist culture. Basically I'm like the West Virginia of the GTVA, clingin' to my guns.
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3. Try talking to a fanatic Christian or Muslim or any other religious person. 'Nuff said. Religion = dangerous. All it takes is a small group of fanatics in power.
I take exception to that. Any system has the capacity to be dangerous: political systems are equally valid. Nationalism? Hell yes. Look at North Korea, or at least what you've seen of it. Look at your political parties and how they devide the populace over issues. Look at the Nazis of the Second World War. An enforced or promoted system has the capacity to make people do inhuman or otherwise terrible acts - it doesn't matter how mundane the system or organization is. As social organisms, people end to affix themselves to a system and indeed, multiple systems. This isn't necessarily bad, but when you sacrifice your individual conscious to promote the larger "organism," you subject yourself to the views of the head of the said "organism." In all things, think, damnit!
My take on BP is that there is no innocent party either side of the Delta Serpentis node - this has in fact been alluded to several times. Heck, are there other religions in Sol besides the state-organized Ubuntu? I'm convinced this, or something like it, will be a key element in continuing the BP storyline.
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3. Try talking to a fanatic Christian or Muslim or any other religious person. 'Nuff said. Religion = dangerous. All it takes is a small group of fanatics in power.
I take exception to that. Any system has the capacity to be dangerous: political systems are equally valid. Nationalism? Hell yes. Look at North Korea, or at least what you've seen of it. Look at your political parties and how they devide the populace over issues. Look at the Nazis of the Second World War. An enforced or promoted system has the capacity to make people do inhuman or otherwise terrible acts - it doesn't matter how mundane the system or organization is. As social organisms, people end to affix themselves to a system and indeed, multiple systems. This isn't necessarily bad, but when you sacrifice your individual conscious to promote the larger "organism," you subject yourself to the views of the head of the said "organism." In all things, think, damnit!
My take on BP is that there is no innocent party either side of the Delta Serpentis node - this has in fact been alluded to several times. Heck, are there other religions in Sol besides the state-organized Ubuntu? I'm convinced this, or something like it, will be a key element in continuing the BP storyline.
I already admitted I was wrong, mainly because Ubuntu is not a religion, but a philosphy. My main reason for being anti-UEF is that I fear their ingrained pacifism would undermine the complex military-centric industry of the GTVA.
And you are totally right about religion not being the only danger in society. I am especially fearful of religion due to my living in the U.S. and seeing firsthand how it can undermine an otherwise very sound democratic system.
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What do you mean I quoted the wrong thing? I was responding to your 4 points.
Yeah, but you quoted SpardaSon's.
I take exception to that. Any system has the capacity to be dangerous: political systems are equally valid. Nationalism? Hell yes. Look at North Korea, or at least what you've seen of it. Look at your political parties and how they devide the populace over issues. Look at the Nazis of the Second World War. An enforced or promoted system has the capacity to make people do inhuman or otherwise terrible acts - it doesn't matter how mundane the system or organization is. As social organisms, people end to affix themselves to a system and indeed, multiple systems. This isn't necessarily bad, but when you sacrifice your individual conscious to promote the larger "organism," you subject yourself to the views of the head of the said "organism." In all things, think, damnit!
The one special danger religion has is that it can't be evaluated on results. Because the rewards of religious behavior are imaginary/located in 'the next life', you can justify just about any action here-and-now by constructing postmortal rewards.
Otherwise I'd largely agree.
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Hence the last line of my statement there. :)
People are, for better or worse, dangerous by nature.
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Wow this topic grew an arm, a leg and bought some trousers while I was gone. :P
Just to throw this out there, the Elders aren't just religious fanatics - There is a lot of reason to believe that the Elders, like Samuel Bei, can communicate with very advanced races, like the Vishnans.
The GTVA might be concentrating on hard power but the Elders could actually have the ability to do a lot more than the GTVA imagine. The Elders almost bridge the gap between the mythological aspects of FS/BP lore with politics.
(speculation)
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I think it is now safe to assume that there are more people who can communicate with the Vishnans than we may realise... :nervous:
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Mind Games!
...and also,...
A wizard did it!
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;-)
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Go ahead, then, demonstrate it to me.
Everything you've said about the UEF military in WiH. :P
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And Scotty tells me to stick to the topic :blah: Talking about BP in a more generalized manner is more interesting anyways.
I say you should stop fishing for answers. We'll get them when they want us to get them. :P
Anyway, do we have any confirming evidence that Vishnans even, for lack of a better word, exist in this particular (once again, for lack of a better word) dimension?
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Go ahead, then, demonstrate it to me.
Everything you've said about the UEF military in WiH. :P
I'm not sure that proves what you're trying to say. It just shows that the UEF military wasn't in a great place when the GTVA kicked down the node after 50 years of peace, isolation, and - as far as anyone knew - guaranteed safety.
The UEF's economic and technological prowess, never mind its social cohesion, could produce a formidable war effort under the right circumstances. You can't say they haven't 'invested in preparedness' when their infrastructure is so well-developed. It's not hard to start making things what go boom and not hard to train the people to use them - at least not when you've already got good industry and education in place.
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;-)
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I'm not sure that proves what you're trying to say. It just shows that the UEF military wasn't in a great place when the GTVA kicked down the node after 50 years of peace, isolation, and - as far as anyone knew - guaranteed safety.
The UEF's economic and technological prowess, never mind its social cohesion, could produce a formidable war effort under the right circumstances. You can't say they haven't 'invested in preparedness' when their infrastructure is so well-developed. It's not hard to start making things what go boom and not hard to train the people to use them - at least not when you've already got good industry and education in place.
I direct you to modern Europe, which would be hard-pressed to deploy 10,000 troops on short notice.
It does take time. We're not talking about a situation where weapons systems are simple like they were in the Second World War and even that took effort. The US fleet that won the war in the Pacific was authorized with the Vinson Bill in 1938. It took five years from ordering to commissioning of the first carrier hulls, in peacetime. Specifications for the aircraft that would fly from them were issued anywhere from two to four years before they were fielded. You cannot extemporize a navy. You can extemporize an army, but even in doing that you cannot expect to defeat professional opponents in open combat.
The economic and industrial manner in which the Shivans would be defeated, if that's possible, is going to be based on the Soviet Union post-WW2, with a professional military force plus massive stocks of equipment and material awaiting rapid mobilization in time of trouble.
This is because in the face of a Shivan invasion, the most precious of commodities is time, measured in weeks and days. There are no natural barriers worthy of the name to retard Shivan progress. Only force of arms can do that, and the force the Shivans can bring to bear increases exponentionally the longer the conflict lasts. Unless you can match that exponential increase in weeks, there's no reason to believe you'll win. Even being extremely generous and saying the UEF can produce a formidible war effort in three years...that's going to be two years and eleven months too late when dealing with the Shivans. Unless the ships are there in service or in mothballs, the fightercraft and weapons lines running a constant low-rate or even full-rate production in anticipation, then none of it is going to make a meaningful contribution to a war against the Shivans.
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Sure, but I'm not arguing that the UEF is ready for a Shivan invasion right now. They didn't, so far as they knew, have any reason to be.
As a culture, though, they have the ability to be tremendous contributors in the long term. They've got a tradition of industry, science, and education, and they're industrially very potent. Their naval engineers are not remotely bad.
There's additional information here that I can't divulge yet, but The_E's earlier remark about the Culture may be telling with some thought.
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;-)
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Why wouldn't the UEF try to prepare for the next Shivan invasion? Isn't it mentioned at the end of FS1 that the Shivans will return, and that they have the technology to reopen the Sol-Delta Serpentis jump node? If I was in control of the Earth government, I would definitely try to have an extremely powerful navy in case the Terrans and Vasudans outside Sol fell and the Shivans reopened the node.
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;-)
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Why wouldn't the UEF try to prepare for the next Shivan invasion? Isn't it mentioned at the end of FS1 that the Shivans will return, and that they have the technology to reopen the Sol-Delta Serpentis jump node? If I was in control of the Earth government, I would definitely try to have an extremely powerful navy in case the Terrans and Vasudans outside Sol fell and the Shivans reopened the node.
Now, that's an interesting question, isn't it?
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;-)
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Why wouldn't the UEF try to prepare for the next Shivan invasion? Isn't it mentioned at the end of FS1 that the Shivans will return, and that they have the technology to reopen the Sol-Delta Serpentis jump node? If I was in control of the Earth government, I would definitely try to have an extremely powerful navy in case the Terrans and Vasudans outside Sol fell and the Shivans reopened the node.
Now, that's an interesting question, isn't it?
Cryptic answer is cryptic.
Just keep up with the minor fluff answers. It makes the waiting more bearable.
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I seem to recall someone on-staff mentioning (possibly on IRC) that there was some significance in how close Beta Aquilae, the GTVA 'capital', is to Sol, as far as jumps between them.
Dunno what, though...
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;-)
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:o
I think it's all a big trick. Halfway through Sam wakes up about to launch from the Orestes in mission one.
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;-)
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Gen B or someone who is part of the team created some BP info about the motives of the GTVA and why they started the fight against the UEF, and more here: http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/ under media/prose.
Definitely was General Battuta.
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The economic and industrial manner in which the Shivans would be defeated, if that's possible, is going to be based on the Soviet Union post-WW2, with a professional military force plus massive stocks of equipment and material awaiting rapid mobilization in time of trouble.
This is because in the face of a Shivan invasion, the most precious of commodities is time, measured in weeks and days. There are no natural barriers worthy of the name to retard Shivan progress. Only force of arms can do that, and the force the Shivans can bring to bear increases exponentionally the longer the conflict lasts. Unless you can match that exponential increase in weeks, there's no reason to believe you'll win. Even being extremely generous and saying the UEF can produce a formidible war effort in three years...that's going to be two years and eleven months too late when dealing with the Shivans. Unless the ships are there in service or in mothballs, the fightercraft and weapons lines running a constant low-rate or even full-rate production in anticipation, then none of it is going to make a meaningful contribution to a war against the Shivans.
Why wouldn't the UEF try to prepare for the next Shivan invasion? Isn't it mentioned at the end of FS1 that the Shivans will return, and that they have the technology to reopen the Sol-Delta Serpentis jump node? If I was in control of the Earth government, I would definitely try to have an extremely powerful navy in case the Terrans and Vasudans outside Sol fell and the Shivans reopened the node.
You two seem to forget something. The UEF didn't know about the second Shivan incursion at the beginning of the war. With their current fleet they most likely would have easily wiped out the whole fleet the Shivans deployed in the great war. The only problem would have been the Lucifer.
So as far as the UEF knew before the Sanctuary and part of the 14th battlegroup joined them, they were already prepared for another war against the Shivans.
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You two seem to forget something. The UEF didn't know about the second Shivan incursion at the beginning of the war.
Not at all. (Though lacking beam cannon, I'm curious how you'd imagine they deal with a Lucy.) I'm presenting the GTVA's point of view. If the UEF isn't prepared to sustain major military commitments (and apparently they're not), they're a danger.
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How to deal with a Lucifer? I think they quite sufficiently dealt with the first one. The only reason the GTA and PVN weren't able to take the Lucifer down much earlier was, that they didn't have the necessary knowledge sooner.
Since they now have that knowledge, any future Luficers are vulnerable as soon as they make a jump, unless they make sure the system they are jumping out of is clear.
And the UEF would even have far superiour fighters to get that job done. With a bit of planning and/or luck they might even be able to stir the Lucy into an unimportant node.
If it's still far out they might even make a little experiment and try what happens if they only blow up some of the reactors. That might leave the beams and/or shields inoperational.
I'm presenting the GTVA's point of view.
Didn't notice that, I though you were speaking of your own point of view there.
But the GTVA should know that the UEF didn't have the knowledge of the the second incursion. If they learned how bad the Shivan threat really is. The GTVA wouldn't have lost anything if they gave them some time. Since the UEF absolutely didn't expect an attack, they wouldn't even have lost the moment of surprise if they decided to attack at a later date.
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Since they now have that knowledge, any future Luficers are vulnerable as soon as they make a jump, unless they make sure the system they are jumping out of is clear.
And the UEF would even have far superiour fighters to get that job done. With a bit of planning and/or luck they might even be able to stir the Lucy into an unimportant node.
Only problem with this is that Sol is at the end of a jump chain. If a Lucifer appears at the node, it can be expected to stay in-system until the job is done. You can only defend yourself against one if you have enough depth to do so; in the UEF's case, their only hope is that their new weapons can penetrate a Lucifer's shields and do some damage.
Oh, and given that the GTVA doesn't know anything about the Shivan target selection process, trying to lure it somewhere could be somewhat difficult.
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The Shivans seem to take their cruisers being captured quite personally (remeber the Taranis). This might be used against them.
But about the Lucifer appearing in Sol already is a good point.
Do we know wether the UEF weapons are stong enough to crack the shields of a Lucifer? After all the 14th battlegroup managed to batter down the shields with just one destroyer and two corvettes. Maybe it's just a matter of applying enough force in a very short timespan.
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The Lucifer in 'Curse of Prescience'/'Fallen Angel' had, I believe, deactivated its shield generators (which were basically useless against beam weapons) to power its main guns. You'll note that its weapons are drastically more powerful than the usual 2xSRed layout.
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O rly? Then explain why Lilith or Ravana doesn't have generators to power ridiculous LReds. LRed is 2.25 times stronger than beams (HRed) the Lucy uses. If you seriously want to explain lack of shields on Lucy in those two BP missions, it is easy. Anti-capital beams caused Lucy's shields to fail. Since UEF doesn't have beams, they wouldn't have such luck with second Lucy.
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Didn't the Orestes say that their weapons were strong enough to penetrate the Lucy's shields?
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Yeah, you might be right.
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Well, the Orestes is using beam cannons, which shields are useless against
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Yes, thus
which were basically useless against beam weapons
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How do we know the UEF's new weapons aren't equally effective at piercing sheath shields? I mean, the GTVA developed beams during the time between the wars... why would the UEF not have also been working on anti-Lucifer weapons tech? For all we know, those railguns they've got were designed for that role!
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We don't. Which is why I said
their only hope is that their new weapons can penetrate a Lucifer's shields and do some damage.
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Missile splash damage can pierce fighter shields on occasion, so I'm pretty certain that a large enough missile and/or explosion may stand a chance of piercing the Lucifer's shields.
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Do railguns have a blast radius?
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;-)
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I don't, but beams piercing shields is canon. Even in retail, AAA beams can still pierce through any fighter shield, even that of the Shivans.
Do railguns have a blast radius?
They used to, but I think the blast radius of railguns has either been greatly reduced or removed completely.
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I was thinking beams forced their way through shield matrices by overloading them at the point of contact, allowing them to force their way through without disrupting the rest of the shield's integrity. Of course, that explanation doesn't work very well for slash beams.
So I suppose the simplest answer is: A Game Designer did it!
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But does anyone here have theories on why beams can bypass shields?
Some weapons can do it too; the Ancients ones from INFR1 could do it with disturbing regularity, and Dawn of Sol's Photon Lancer could do it on occasion.
The basic theory I came up with is that a shield's ability to stop incoming fire is directly proportional to the incoming fire's energy density. Regular cannon bolts are easily 16+ inches, and most missiles are of similar size. The higher the raw energy per square whatever, the better a weapon is able to penetrate shields. AAA beam cannons are extremely high-energy and have a relatively small impact area, meaning they burn straight through fighter-sized shields. Anti-capital beams, however, simply massive-overkill the target, delievering so much energy in their large area that you'd need to harness the total output of a star or something equally ridiculous to stop one.
(Missiles don't work well against shields in FS1 because they weren't entirely sure of the principles behind this. Presumably they developed a countermeasure or just better fuzes by FS2.)
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how about the fact that the speed of beam weapons probably makes them laser type weapons, if that is so it just probably passes right through the shields lets face it there is no distortion of the normal light as it bounces of the fighter to suggest it is reacting to light.
about the plasma core insertion line in surrender Belisarius probably refers to a chamber used to generate the laser light with a specialized plasma being the only way to generating the energy for long lasting beams with enough output
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how about the fact that the speed of beam weapons probably makes them laser type weapons, if that is so it just probably passes right through the shields lets face it there is no distortion of the normal light as it bounces of the fighter to suggest it is reacting to light.
Then shields wouldn't stop ML-16 blasts. Or Prometheus blasts.
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Must not be applicable to sub-light lasers... :P
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i really think this is going to remain a case of "because that's how the game mechanics work". for what it is worth, i always had the idea that beams were giant EM waves, not a particle stream.
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I always thought it's made of pure energy.
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;-)
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Well, the one thing that's established is that Northrop Grumman has already made a real beam cannon (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/03/military-laser/).
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Beam weapons aren't lasers because FS shields stop lasers.
You could reach a lot and suggest that the laser weapons we see in FS might not be visible spectrum (selectively ignoring the fact that all the non-visible-spectrum weapons are explicitly termed things other than 'laser'), but even then you wouldn't be able to get around the fact that simply tuning the ML-16 to the visible spectrum would be trivial as it's an argon laser and their median wavelength is in the visible.
Never mind that the beam weapons don't look or act like lasers.
In short: it takes a tremendous amount of wank to make beam weapons into lasers when there are simpler and more effective explanations.
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So the supposed Home Fleet Orion destroyer is the Defender of Earth...
Is her is the name of commander "Keen"?
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beam weapons behave a lot more like lasers than the actual lasers do in FS. lasers are EM waves, meaning they would travel at the speed of light, not ~400 m/s bolts.
but i'm going to revert back to my favorite argument, that this is a game and not a class in physics, so it doesn't really matter. to me at least.
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beam weapons behave a lot more like lasers than the actual lasers do in FS. lasers are EM waves, meaning they would travel at the speed of light, not ~400 m/s bolts.
but i'm going to revert back to my favorite argument, that this is a game and not a class in physics, so it doesn't really matter. to me at least.
I'm Thaeris and I endorse this message.
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beam weapons behave a lot more like lasers than the actual lasers do in FS. lasers are EM waves, meaning they would travel at the speed of light, not ~400 m/s bolts.
but i'm going to revert back to my favorite argument, that this is a game and not a class in physics, so it doesn't really matter. to me at least.
I'm Thaeris and I endorse this message.
Beams are not more likely to be lasers than any other 'realistic' explanation of what they are.
Lasers could, hypothetically, use a plasma core as part of the lasing medium. So that fits. They also travel instantaneously at these ranges, just like beams. Those are the big points in favor of the 'laser' theory.
However, lasers do not sidescatter like beams do. Lasers do not charge up with bright glowing particles around the emitter. Lasers do not travel a fixed distance at maximum power and then stop working. :V: called everything which was a laser - no matter how bizarre and aphysical - a laser, but did not do so for beams.
And, most importantly, in FreeSpace? Shields block lasers. (See above for why yes, that includes visible light.)
So it ends up being just as much of a kludge as any other explanation. It's not necessarily a bad one but it's not a good one either.
In the end, beams are beams, and you're just going to drive yourself nuts trying to make them make physical sense.
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So presumably the Vasudans have new vanguard ships too right? Especially since their economy is doing well.
I always saw their design philosophy as: faster but frail fighters, heavy bombers, light cruisers and heavy destroyers.
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Their bombers and destroyers don't seem to be heavy enough, though.
...fail cruisers...
Fixed? :p :nervous:
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I think beams are an extremely fast firing plasma/laser cannon, whatever FS2 primaries are, that fire so fast they blur into one. They also move really fast. The intensity is so great from the barrage that they punch right through shields. But they cook radiators, which have to cool, thus the cooldown times.
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I'm sorry Titan, but that is a weak hypothesis. :p
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So like, "powering up photon beam cannons" and whatnot...
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That's also a point for the laser theory. Although it's fairly transparent technobabble in the same vein as 'photon torpedoes.'
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I'm pretty sure it's explained somewhere that 'photon torpedoes' referred to how they released a blast of electro-magnetic radiation (i.e. photons)... or at least someone told me that. Idunno the source.
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Yes, and that is pure technobabble, because it is essentially saying 'explosions make light.'
No ****?
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Well, matter-antimatter annihilation reactions release pure photons, don't they?
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Yep, lots of very low-wavelength stuff.
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if we want to get technical, a flashlight is a photon beam cannon of sorts :P
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Quite.
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;-)
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Uhm...no...if you go by tech descriptions, primaries are chemical lasers.
They use the gas to emit the laser, they don't shoot the gas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_laser
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There are two possibilities for the UEF to win I guess. The GTVA is on the brink of economic collapse. If the UEF can draw the war out long enough, the GTVA might become unable to sustain the offensive.
Secend possibility is, that the GTVA civies learn of the war and all the unhappyness that was close to getting the GTVA government thrown down (which was only barely prevented by focussing the people on returning to Sol, if I interprete the proses correctly) will erupt back in full froce and cause the ones who initiated the attack to be driven form office and replaced with people who then sign a peace treaty with Sol.
Or maybe the will really lose the war...
There is also a very big possibility that Darius will do something I really don't expect ;)
But however it will continue, I'm really looking forward to it.
MY GOD MAN! Spell check?
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I think the difference between beams and lasers in FS is that lasers are some sort or matter, like argon in the Akheton, with some sort of energy charge. It is similar to plasma since it is a gas that is charged and lights up, perhaps releasing light all over the electromagnetic spectrum. Beams are probably highly focused x-ray, or better yet, gamma ray light (high energy). Combine high energy wavelengths with the speed of light since it has no mass, and you got yourself a very powerful weapon that seems to exceed all others in power. The only thing more powerful is perhaps a subspace weapon. Can't use a neutrino weapon since neutrinos go through everything like a ghost. It makes one wonder if particles with no mass can even be considered physical since they have no mass, and mass defines if something is physical or not.
Lasers have no mass my friend. Beams are streams of an illuminated element. Yet, a beam of plasma would have mass and some kinetic energy as well. "Combine high energy wavelengths with the speed of light?" - Are you sure you know what you are typing? Light IS energy, to which it's intensity (power) varies depending on the wavelength. FYI; So far as those who are knowledgeable on the subject attest, light weapons are inferior to plasma based or kinetic energy weapons.
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There are two possibilities for the UEF to win I guess. The GTVA is on the brink of economic collapse. If the UEF can draw the war out long enough, the GTVA might become unable to sustain the offensive.
Secend possibility is, that the GTVA civies learn of the war and all the unhappyness that was close to getting the GTVA government thrown down (which was only barely prevented by focussing the people on returning to Sol, if I interprete the proses correctly) will erupt back in full froce and cause the ones who initiated the attack to be driven form office and replaced with people who then sign a peace treaty with Sol.
Or maybe the will really lose the war...
There is also a very big possibility that Darius will do something I really don't expect ;)
But however it will continue, I'm really looking forward to it.
MY GOD MAN! Spell check?
Oh my GOD! I made a few spelling/typing errors while writing in a language other than my mother language late at night! Shoot me!
Seriously, don't you have anything better to do than pointing out spelling and typing mistakes that were made almost a month (and SIX PAGES!!!!!) earlier?
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Yeah, his spelling was pretty good there for the Internet. No need for rage.
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sorry to nitpick, but let's iron out a few details. the INTENSITY of the beam is like saying how thick or dense it is, it is the number of waves/particles per cross sectional area per second. this is independent of the beam's ENERGY, which would be determined by the frequency/wavelength of the wave. the energy and the intensity combined give the power, the energy per second.
as for the "massless particles are nonphysical" thing, well clearly not, since there ARE "particles" that are massless that are known to exist. don't forget, mass an energy are interchangable.
my biggest thought on why the beam cannons would be EM rather than plasma (other than the fact that just what they look like to me :P) is conservation of mass. if that IS a particle stream, all those particles need to come from somewhere. i don't see where they are gonna store that insane amount of plasma in the destroyers, much less the cruisers.
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It's an interesting question but at that point you start delving into the madness of how FreeSpace ships store all their missiles. It just doesn't make sense.
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Subluminal lasers.
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;-)
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Light Amplification through Stimulated Emission of Radiation. If the distinction between physical and not you are speaking of only exists in-game, there is no reason for the distinction to exist at all.
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A laser is a thingy that bounces light back and forth until all the rays are perfectly parallel and in the same direction, which basically focuses them.
If i remember correctly.
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A laser is a thingy that bounces light back and forth until all the rays are perfectly parallel and in the same direction, which basically focuses them.
If i remember correctly.
Not 'perfectly' ...
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A laser is a thingy that bounces light back and forth until all the rays are perfectly parallel and in the same direction, which basically focuses them.
Unfortunately, wrong in almost every respect.
A LASER is a device that ensures that the majority of the photons emitted are at the same frequency (monochromatic) and are 'in phase'.
(A perfect one would have them all perfectly in phase)
They do this by having one photon stimulate the emission of other photons in-phase and the same colour.
"In Phase" means that the 'peaks' and 'troughs' of the light are exactly together, thus having a much greater effect on the target than if some were 'peak' when others were 'troughs'.
The fact that the light is monochromatic and in phase also lets you do all kinds of other clever stuff, for example reading CDs and DVDs. These actually work by detecting when the distance from disc surface to detector array changes by half-wavelengths, thus causing a massive difference in signal (goes from high to almost zero)
Everything else about LASER light doesn't really matter:
You can always use lenses to focus - or defocus, as in holography, and the majority of LASERs are actually dimmer (less light output) than the tungsten filament lamps you probably use in your house.