Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Dragon on February 27, 2010, 03:16:53 pm
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I wonder if anyone use specialized weapons in FS1/2?
Also, I'd like to hear any opinions about those weapons, for example, what would you change in the FS ones, if you would like them to appear in more mods, or pretty much anything you have to say about them. Opinions about non canon special cannons (INFR1 Mace comes to mind) are also welcome.
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I usually don't use any because there is little need for them if a Prom S or Kayser is available. In other words, the all purpose weapons.
Honestly, I think a more interesting campaign could be created by just removing all purpose weapons and have all specialized weapons instead
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The only Specialized weapon I use is the anti-hull weapon (the Maxim), but since you don't have that up there... I picked other.
Edit: Since you said the Maxim doesn't count, changed to "none".
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Let's be frank: they're awful.
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The only specialized weapons that I consider taking along are anti-subsystem guns. Shield breakers or energy Leechers are mostly useless, unless the mission specifically calls for them.
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Maxim is more like a normal combat weapon with stats that make it usefull for specialized purpose (you can kill a fighter with Maxim, but not with Circe) and disruptors are usefull only if mission specifficaly calls for them (though if they're also shield breakers, like INFA Shreiker, they become hell for any fighter with big engine subsystem).
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You can kill people with repeated Morning Star fire. Just not very well. :P
That was my strategy when I first started FS2.
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On missions where I didn't get to choose my loadout, and was equipped S-Breakers or Circes, I've appreciated them. Not really my cup of tea, but they are effective when used properly. Energy leechers... I don't see the AI affected by them, so I don't use them.
Just a thought, one setup that would be VERY specialized but possibly quite nasty would be Circe paired with Lamprey- it would simply shut your opponent down...
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Just a thought, one setup that would be VERY specialized but possibly quite nasty would be Circe paired with Lamprey- it would simply shut your opponent down...
I've made a combined cannon which leeches power from reactor, which basically means it works like such combo (it has no hull damage though).
And while it is possible to kill opponents with MS (though Flail is better at it) or Lamprey fire, it's pathetic enough not to be a factor.
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Kinetic weapons and shield breakers.
Avenger + Flail is a nice combination, especially useful with Apollos and Athenas. Avenger + Banshee is also surprisingly effective (especially in Clash of the Titans).
The Morning star seems to me to be less effective than the Flail. It still has its uses, though.
Specialized cannons allow you adapt. You can intercept bombs, dogfight, deplete bomber shields or break their bombing runs. All of this with reasonable energy consumption.
Try doing that with a Prometheus O and its annoying lack of range, high energy demands and low rate of fire. I mean, it can be done. But why bother?
However, when the fighter can handle it, Prometheus (S and O) and Kayser are nice to have available.
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The only specialist cannon i use is a maxim, if you can call it that.
4+K of insta- subsys damage :yes:
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Let's be frank: they're awful.
QFT
not a single one is usefull in a FS style mission, so... no.
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Maxim if I'm on a convoy-intercept, Akheton if I'm on a convoy-escort. I never use them anywhere else.
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I use the Maxim quite often against both fighters and larger ships. The Morning Star is useful online in TvT and dogfight games, but in singleplayer the knock-back effect is usually a bad thing due to how the FS AI works. The other stuff is pretty much useless.
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I like combining the Leech with the Prometheus on the Herc in FS1(technically, ST/ST:R). After having it used on me to annoying effect in ST:R's Exodus, I feel it does make a difference in keeping lighter AI ships from getting too AB-happy. Otherwise, I'm Avenger all the way, save for Banshees on Lokis.
Taking a cue from FS2/the Maxim, I do now put Disruptors on my FS1-era Ursa's 'gun rack' for quick turret busting.
In FS2, cannons are too high-power-damage-focused for tactical cannons to be really competitive(in SP, at least), IMO.
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I've gotten addicted to the leech playtesting TI missions, but in regular FS it's less useful I'll admit.
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Disruptor on occasion, Maxim quite regularly, Morning Star only for multi when I wanna take my time and annoy people xP
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Circe/Maxim when hunting Shivan bombers on anything that has six+ gun slots. Though you could argue it's really more of Circe/Trebuchet.
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I used to think the Leech Cannon was just as good as the Banshee, so that counts. I've also used the S-Breaker on certain missions, and the Flail in early stages of FS1.
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maxim is pretty much it. i used the s-breaker a couple of times in later ST playthroughs.
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Lampreys are fun for annoying people in multi missions. Everyone had Kaysers or Maxims and couldn't do ****. :lol:
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Kinetic and shieldbreakers.
Kinetic weapons are great against turrets in my experience, and shield breakers against the Seraphim bombers = win.
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Sometimes Maxim, but usually I carry a bank of Kayser's and a bank of Subach's. On a ship like the Myr, it's usually a powerful weapon on the first bank (2p) and my gen-purpose on the second (4p). Same on the Ares, though reversed. It seems that the AI reacts too well to shield-breakers. By the time I whittled down their shields enough to do real damage, I don't have enough time to kill them. On the other hand, with quad-fired or oct-fired Prometheus or even Subach, it's only a few hits until the shields and the hull are both down or out. Plus, my favorite trick is, when the PromS is available, is to start firing and then swap the second cannon in, for 30% faster firing.
Not many shield quadrants will survive 8 PromS bolts at a time.
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I suppose I interpreted "kinetic" as the Flail Rifle, though I'll usually take a bank of Maxims for ripping hulls subsystems/turrets apart. "Kinetic" usually is tied to a tactical weapon like the Flail/Morning Star, which are limited in usefulness at best.
In FS1, especially ST:R with the Port, I'll always take a shield damaging weapon like the S-Breaker/Banshee whenever possible to overcome the shortcomings I've felt the FS1 weapons had. In FS2, I usually never make use of tactical weapons unless they're required.
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This really should be a multiple-options poll -- Specific weapons with checkboxes, rather than categories with radio buttons.
I rarely use kinetic/leech/anti-shield, mainly because the kinetic weapons are too specialized, and the the other ones fire too slow.
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It's possible to chose any combination of categories though.
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Agreed that Maxim is the only one remotely useful.
Good for plucking off capship turrets, good for shooting down incoming bombs from long range. Camera shake is annoying, but can be dealt with.
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There's always the option of shooting the Maxim while in chase view. ;)
I find it tempting to use the Morning Star as a bomb-interception weapon, but in missions that have the Morning Star, there is always the Subach, which uses up less energy and does useful shield and hull damage in addition to being reliable and precise.
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Morning star is not so good.. but flail was awesome.
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Like I said, there's always the Subach.
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So I just realized, Maxim isn't even on the poll...
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In Freespace 1 I used specialised weapons quite a bit: the Avenger was fantastic and the only standard weapon I ever wanted, but did considerably better against hulls than shields. Throwing in a Flail sacrificed hardly any firepower against fighters and allowed one to push them all over the place. In Silent Threat, the S-Breaker was another nice complement if you wanted firepower instead of cute tricks.
The special weapons were quite useful against fighters because the regular anti-shield weapon was a piece of junk. 4 Avengers + 2 S-Breakers outperformed 6 Banshees against hulls and shields, at a third of the energy cost; a shame that only the Hercules offered this because it's a really nice balance.
In Freespace 2 the regular weaponry became a lot betterl at the high end (Avengers are more powerful than Subachs and compare well against Mekhus). At the same time, the specialised equipment generally became worse: less damage with greatly increased energy demands. I mostly threw these in on fighters with 6 guns that couldn't carry Maxims or didn't need them in a particular misson, beause firing from both banks doesn't actually increase the damage per second.
Morning Stars still have some uses... preventing an enemy from shooting back during a head-on approach (the range comes in handy) and distracting bombers mostly.
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So I just realized, Maxim isn't even on the poll...
It isn't exactly a specialised weapon, since it can wear shields down over time.
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S-breaker Prometheus combo kills Shivan bombers faster than damn near anything else.
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I should have tried that when I was doing the Shivan gauntlet in FSPort multi last year.
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It isn't exactly a specialised weapon, since it can wear shields down over time.
Yeah, but it's not much fun doing it.
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No, it takes too long and too much energy. In order for Maxims to wear down shields quickly, you need to mount it on at least four gun points, and all your shots must hit.
It can be a good scare tactic in multiplayer, though.
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Morningstar is pretty much the only one. If only the shield breaker really was as good as its name sounded. I might as well just pack a Prometheus S.
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If the S-Breaker did 1000 shield damage per shot, perhaps. :drevil:
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If the S-Breaker did 1000 shield damage per shot, perhaps. :drevil:
That would deplete every fighter or bomber's shields in one hit. Totally not unfair. :P
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What about 80 shield damage per shot? :nervous:
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While 1000 is too much, the point is that a specialized shield breaking weapon BETTER do a better job at it than a regular gun. Giving up an entire weapons bank is a pretty huge tradeoff that needs an appropriate payoff.
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Biggest problem is that it costs just as much as a Prom-S bolt to fire(1 full energy unit per shot). Second, IMO, is the shot velocity that only plays well with the HL-7s and the Prom-R. Third(debatable) is the weak fire rate(lower than the Prom-S).
Fix at least two of the above(and while you're at it, maybe make the Prom-R not useless), and I think it might be worthwhile.
The steep increase in energy usage from the S-Breaker to the Circe is easily the most jarring, though. 5x the energy consumption per shot, 250m less range, and slower fire rate, in exchange for +50mps shot velocity and 5 more shield damage per shot?
EDIT: Although, the increased lethality and ammo capacity of secondaries compared to FS1 might be at least part of the out-of-universe reasoning.
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The strange bit is that having the best of both games would be perfectly balanced and offered a large variety of effective loadouts.
Kayser and Prometheus S would still be the general purpose hard-hitters, balanced by energy demands.
Avenger and Prometheus still have the best hull damage after the Maxim. Unlike the Maxim, they are energy-efficient and perfectly usable against shielded targets. They're so similar that you don't really need both in a game, but that's not a problem.
S-Breaker and Flail would have their niche because they are energy-efficient in addition to strong against shields. Since the less specialised high-end cannons are actually good (unlike the Banshee), they wouldn't be no-brainers.
The Mekhu HL-7 would remain an excellent all-rounder.
The Maxim would still be the weapon of choice to pick off big things from afar.
That just leaves energy draining and anti-subsystem weapons, which are poor in both games.
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I think the morning star is fun to mess around with sometimes, especially with the small and fast ships that are often hard to hit normally ("where's your agility now!").
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In the hands of a good pilot, the Morning Star can be a very effective bomb interceptor and fighter killer (when coupled with missiles).
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In the hands of the AI, the Morning Star is EVIIIL.
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I went through the port, kitting out every Aten with a flail in every available mount with General ai.
I messed up stopping the suicide ram attack suffice to say.
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The Morning Star has a decent range, low hull damage and a high rate of fire. This makes it ideal for intercepting bombs. The Maxim has a high rate of fire as well, but it's harder to aim (due to the shuddering) and it risks to do more damage to the ship you're escorting than the actual bomb itself.
So I use the Morning Star on interception missions, but not because of its kinetic properties.
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Kayser is the only gun I'll ever need. If my ship can't equip it or it's not available yet, I go Promethius S or Subach. Why bother with depleting shields or draining energy or knocking them about when you can kill something fast in 2-8 shots, and something slow in 2-8 seconds.
Oh yeah, and there's two more bomber wings launching bombs at your cap ships and a wing and a half of dragons coming after you only and if you fly straight for more than a second you die because the rest of Alpha wing is mostly incompetent and have already gone down and HOLY???? is that another Lilith!?!? You just don't have time to mess around!
Sometimes though if I know there's going to be beam cannons to remove, I'll put a disrupter on the secondary bank.