Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: OllieG on March 11, 2010, 01:08:09 pm
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Playing FS2 on Insane, with Alpha 1 being just a normal ship that dies in a couple missile hits, the forces used in most of the campaign missions (particularly against the NTF) don't make much sense from a military point of view. You don't notice except on the higher difficulty settings, but you are badly outnumbered in almost every mission. For example, in Feint, Parry, Riposte, the GTVA sends a single wing of interceptors to provide fighter cover from a cruiser facing a dozen enemy fighters, then expects the same wing to tackle the 3-4 wings launched from a destroyer with only a 3-ship reinforcement. Even if Alpha wing manages to lure the escorts away from their cruisers, they're still out numbered 3 to 1.
While this makes some sense when fighting the Shivans, who presumably have huge numbers of fighters and no qualms about launching them in expendable waves (an effect that makes the Shivans much more intimidating on higher difficulties, since their numbers start to matter a lot more and you realize that there are a TON of them), the game gives the impression that the GTVA generally had less fighters and bombers than the NTF. I get that players need something to shoot on the lower difficulties, but in terms of realism this really bugs me (I'd consider Insane the most "realistic" difficulty setting since you don't get a magical ship with tougher armor). Is it simply a case of GTVA fighters being more advanced than their NTF counterparts or what?
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Part of it is due to engine limitations. Part of it comes from V's less is more approach to mission design.
In-universe, I think the rationale is that since GTVA pilots have proven time and time again that skill is more important than numerical superiority, committing the bare minimum of ships is a really good idea, especially when facing a foe who does not seem to care about losses.
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It's called game mechanism, and to a degree performance optimization. This is a game, not a realistic simulator program that you'd use to train real flesh-and-blood pilots.
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The game is no fun when your wingmen handle everything.
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A game where you are 1 fighter among hundreds would be kinda boring
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because alpha 1 only needs 1 fighter raft at a time!
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I cant comment on other areas you are on about but Feint, Parry, Riposte the briefing talks about presenting the minimum credible threat to encourage the NTF to deploy the destroyer (minimum threat to a valuable warship combined with the chance to pummel an enemy heavy cruiser). though the retail engine was heavily restricted and the colly/sath used up a huge amount of the available resources (remember this is a game released in 99 using an engine with its roots in the mid 90s)
also officially GTVA kit is 18 months of development ahead of NTF so the GTVA does have a slight technological advantage over NTF not to mention a cautious approach after getting creamed on a number of occasions by the NTF fleet
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On a similar note, the casualty rates are extremely high for fighter pilots. Sometimes entire squadron are shot down in a single mission. (See Love the Treason but Hate the Traitor) Entire wings go down on practically every little engagement. Pilots are practically committed to fighting even if their fighter's hull integrity is critical.
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Pilots are practically committed to fighting even if their fighter's hull integrity is critical.
If you want to be the "good commander" you could always just order them to depart when they get critical. (if they're under your command).
They'll probably just be court martialed anyway though, knowing command.
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I've spent a lot of time playing with ships that depart when badly damaged, and, frankly, it's generally suicidal.
Warping out requires one to fly straight and level, completely defenseless, for several seconds. It generally means you're going to die.
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True that, even fighters at full strength die really fast when trying to warp out.
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My guess would be pure size and complexity to build. A Loki for instance is one of the smaller fighters but it's still huge for a single man craft. It's over 24 meters long. Can you imagine the cost to build one of those?
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My guess would be pure size and complexity to build. A Loki for instance is one of the smaller fighters but it's still huge for a single man craft. It's over 24 meters long. Can you imagine the cost to build one of those?
Well, considering all the equipment it has to contain (do you know how big a fusion reactor coupled with a set of VASIMR-based thrusters would be?), 24 meters seems perfectly acceptable. Assuming the primary weapons are about the same size as modern-day machine guns and chain guns mounted on helicopters, the ship would still need to hold a fusion reactor (probably a 20 foot diameter torus), a few thrusters, some superconducting magnets, a fuel tank, a coolant tank, and all the missiles. The Loki doesn't hold many secondaries, but considering a single Fury is several kilotons...
As for the cost, I'd estimate about US$800,000,000 per, in 2010 dollars, assuming materials are common enough not to drive the price up sky-high. After all, it is the future, so they've got to have plenty of deuterium, tritium, and liquid helium.
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The GTVA managed to build over six thousand Bakhas. I doubt something like the Loki, which basically uses Great War technology, would be any harder to manufacture.
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Of course, the GTVA also has the resources of dozens of planets to offset the cost somewhat. Still, the NTF probably gets most of its ships from the treasonous swine that dare call themselves "pilots". That, coupled with the NTF being composed primarily of "stupid cattle, driven by their hatred, fear, and insecurities" allows the NTF to sacrifice more people in battle. They're a bunch of zealots, willing to die for Neo Terra, if Admiral Koth and the NTD Repulse is anything to judge by.
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Hey, if it's NTF Command, they'll be court martialed and then summarily executed. For the NTF, it's go out there and die fighting for Neo-Terra or come back home and die anyways from the firing squad.
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Of course, the GTVA also has the resources of dozens of planets to offset the cost somewhat. Still, the NTF probably gets most of its ships from the treasonous swine that dare call themselves "pilots". That, coupled with the NTF being composed primarily of "stupid cattle, driven by their hatred, fear, and insecurities" allows the NTF to sacrifice more people in battle. They're a bunch of zealots, willing to die for Neo Terra, if Admiral Koth and the NTD Repulse is anything to judge by.
Interesting perspective; the NTF is seen as a legitimate military but almost their entire fleet, form the smallest to the largest of vessels, defected from the GTVA. They're really little more than a rag-tag army of dissatisfied pilots. I'd assume, however, that the NTF WOULD be overflowing in pilots and their craft, especially compared to the number of cruisers and capital ships. With hundreds of potential GTVA loyalists, NTF revolts would either be bloody on-ship or deal more with coercion.
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The NTF still had 3 entire systems worth of colonies to build warships from though. So I wouldn't say most of their fleet and strikecrafts came from defections. If anything, GTVA efforts were probably hampered by the construction of the GTVA Colossus and NTF sabotage efforts.
I don't think most pilots just defected over to the NTF either. Chances are, most of the pilots came from the NTF home worlds with the rest coming from destroyers that defected.
The NTF aren't going to just welcome random pilots flying into their systems either. Most of the defections probably took place within weeks of the secession.
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The game is no fun when your wingmen handle everything.
Disagree somewhat. In X-Wing Alliance, your wingman were scarily competent. They kept stealing my kills.
It was refreshing to see that their killcount was almost as high as mine.
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Interesting perspective; the NTF is seen as a legitimate military but almost their entire fleet, form the smallest to the largest of vessels, defected from the GTVA. They're really little more than a rag-tag army of dissatisfied pilots. I'd assume, however, that the NTF WOULD be overflowing in pilots and their craft, especially compared to the number of cruisers and capital ships. With hundreds of potential GTVA loyalists, NTF revolts would either be bloody on-ship or deal more with coercion.
If i recall correctly, the Americans durring the American Revolution were a bunch of rag-tag farmers and business men, but their resolve allowed them to defeat the worlds most powerful military force.
The NTF aren't going to just welcome random pilots flying into their systems either. Most of the defections probably took place within weeks of the secession.
The first SOC loop made it seem you got in pretty easily. good chance that the ntf needed pilots and didnt do as much in the way of ackground screening
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The Tech Room states that the Orion has something like 120 fighters stationed aboard. Why they aren't all launched at once in an emergency defense scenario like the Galatea was in during the Great War vs the Lucifer is an utter mystery. Wouldn't that HELP the evacuation of the ship?
(I know that performance kept it from being realistic, but still...)
Also, has anybody beaten all of the levels on Insane without cheating?
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The Tech Room states that the Orion has something like 120 fighters stationed aboard. Why they aren't all launched at once in an emergency defense scenario like the Galatea was in during the Great War vs the Lucifer is an utter mystery. Wouldn't that HELP the evacuation of the ship?
It's possible that it would take hours to get all the ship's onboard fighters readied and aloft. I think flight ops are generally kept at a sustainable tempo and it's probably hard to instantly ramp up to maximum panic mode.
Also, has anybody beaten all of the levels on Insane without cheating?
Yes, quite a few, myself included.
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Keep in mind also, you have fighters out on repair, which are off the flight line, and craft out on sorties. And who's to say a substantial amount of craft haven't already been destroyed in that battle?
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Keep in mind also, you have fighters out on repair, which are off the flight line, and craft out on sorties. And who's to say a substantial amount of craft haven't already been destroyed in that battle?
seconded in game with your emergency recall to the destroyer in the preceding mission
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The NTF still had 3 entire systems worth of colonies to build warships from though. So I wouldn't say most of their fleet and strikecrafts came from defections. If anything, GTVA efforts were probably hampered by the construction of the GTVA Colossus and NTF sabotage efforts.
I don't think most pilots just defected over to the NTF either. Chances are, most of the pilots came from the NTF home worlds with the rest coming from destroyers that defected.
The NTF aren't going to just welcome random pilots flying into their systems either. Most of the defections probably took place within weeks of the secession.
Sounds good. It makes sense Bosch would stage his rebellion in a hotbed of young anti-vasudan resentment. He probably would have waited or something if he was somewhere else.
Also, the game made out like the three NTF systems were pretty large and important.
Another point - The GTVA is THE GOVERMENT. They have more than a war to worry about. whereas the NTF seems more like just a military that controls stuff, but aren't really in charge.
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If i recall correctly, the Americans durring the American Revolution were a bunch of rag-tag farmers and business men, but their resolve allowed them to defeat the worlds most powerful military force.
Wrong paradigm. The Royal Navy won the Revolutionary War. You cannot extemporize a navy. The NTF's officer corps and senior NCOs are most likely defectors. Rank and file crewmen would be new recruits. Defecting to the NTF early would have been a fast route to promotion as they spread out their experienced people to cover reactivated ships from somebody's boneyards since it's unlikely they could stand off the GTVA with the production of only three colonies to the GTVA's 20+.
It's possible that it would take hours to get all the ship's onboard fighters readied and aloft. I think flight ops are generally kept at a sustainable tempo and it's probably hard to instantly ramp up to maximum panic mode.
I doubt it has anything to do taking hours because, frankly, that's dumb design. If you have a power-projection asset that isn't able to project power, it's worthless. We also know it's possibly to rapidly conduct automated arming operations for example, so there's evidence that things are exactly the opposite.
I think it has to do with damage-control issues. A detonation in a hanger is just begging to cause a ship serious issues. As long as the destroyer is not directly engaged they will conduct high-tempo flight operations as much as they want, launching fighters directly from the hanger deck while they keep a ready group situated on the flight deck. In the event enemy craft approach the destroyer then the link between hanger and flight deck is immediately sealed with heavy armor to protect the ship and the ship fights it out with its ready group and whatever fighters it can recall from ongoing missions.
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I doubt that the destroyer's entire fighter complement can be readied to fly on short notice. There are inevitably going to be ships down for repairs.
So I'd stand by the 'hours' estimate.
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Interesting perspective; the NTF is seen as a legitimate military but almost their entire fleet, form the smallest to the largest of vessels, defected from the GTVA. They're really little more than a rag-tag army of dissatisfied pilots. I'd assume, however, that the NTF WOULD be overflowing in pilots and their craft, especially compared to the number of cruisers and capital ships. With hundreds of potential GTVA loyalists, NTF revolts would either be bloody on-ship or deal more with coercion.
If i recall correctly, the Americans durring the American Revolution were a bunch of rag-tag farmers and business men, but their resolve allowed them to defeat the worlds most powerful military force.
The NTF aren't going to just welcome random pilots flying into their systems either. Most of the defections probably took place within weeks of the secession.
The first SOC loop made it seem you got in pretty easily. good chance that the ntf needed pilots and didnt do as much in the way of ackground screening
Well the US had help from France in some places, enjoyed some popular support, and had the advantage of not needing to stand in a line wearing bright red when facing an enemy. The soldiers deployed the the colonies were also, for the most part, bottom of the barrel; given that the commanders downsized the threat considerably.
Also, the colonists took cover behind trees. :pimp:
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I doubt that the destroyer's entire fighter complement can be readied to fly on short notice. There are inevitably going to be ships down for repairs.
If you're arguing readiness availability I again point to the fact we've demonstrated an ability for rapid automated performance of relatively complex tasks. (This is THE FUTURETM after all.)
And that it would be stupid for a ship to have a readiness index of 20% or less. If that is in fact the case, something is terribly terribly wrong with GTVA design and procurement, and I think the games demonstrate the organization is not that terminally screwed up.
I don't argue that having 120 fighters aboard you're going to be able to launch them all at once; there will of course be a number down for maintaince preventive or otherwise, but if of a complement of 120 you are not able to have at least 80 available for operations at one time, something has gone terribly wrong. Even 80 is being rather generous in this regard. Operational readiness rates have historically climbed.
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Whenever I've worked with destroyers in similar situations I've tried to keep at least 24-48 fighters and bombers available on at least a few minutes' notice. I've always taken that to be fairly reasonable given that a good number will probably be out on operations.
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Wrong paradigm. The Royal Navy won the Revolutionary War.
they did, did they? i must have missed that in all the history books ive read, and that contradicts the whole, "no english accent" thing
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Wrong paradigm. The Royal Navy won the Revolutionary War.
they did, did they? i must have missed that in all the history books ive read, and that contradicts the whole, "no english accent" thing
NGTM-1R's point is that what the Continentals assembled for a "navy" was no realistic threat whatsoever to the Royal Navy. If I'm remembering my high-school history well enough, it wasn't until the French committed naval forces that the British faced significant opposition in that regard. In fact, the successful French blockade of Cornwallis's forces at Yorktown was more a matter of excellent timing and out-of-position British fleets than outright naval dominance.
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Whenever I've worked with destroyers in similar situations I've tried to keep at least 24-48 fighters and bombers available on at least a few minutes' notice. I've always taken that to be fairly reasonable given that a good number will probably be out on operations.
Well, unless the destroyer's on the front-line, there's only really a need for one or two squadrons at most to be on "Ready Five", and even then, they're most likely there to reinforce the destroyer's fighter and bomber assets in the field if their presence is required.
...but if of a complement of 120 you are not able to have at least 80 available for operations at one time, something has gone terribly wrong. Even 80 is being rather generous in this regard. Operational readiness rates have historically climbed.
That sounds about right to me. I mean, once you have your Ready Five squadrons airborne, scrambling another three or four squadrons worth of ships in the next five to fifteen minutes would be my logical decision. (Rather than deploying everything, if the enemy commander is someone like me, the initial attack is probably a ruse)
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A game where you are 1 fighter among hundreds would be kinda boring
I'd point to multiplayer shooters as evidence that being one among--well, not hundreds (MAG excepted, perhaps?)--dozens can indeed be quite exciting.
Of course, you'd end up with a very different game. Which, technical limitations aside (and I imagine those were not trivial), was probably why we don't have missions in which there're 64 fighters and bombers active simultaneously.
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*points to Operation Thresher*
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Interesting perspective; the NTF is seen as a legitimate military but almost their entire fleet, form the smallest to the largest of vessels, defected from the GTVA. They're really little more than a rag-tag army of dissatisfied pilots. I'd assume, however, that the NTF WOULD be overflowing in pilots and their craft, especially compared to the number of cruisers and capital ships. With hundreds of potential GTVA loyalists, NTF revolts would either be bloody on-ship or deal more with coercion.
If i recall correctly, the Americans durring the American Revolution were a bunch of rag-tag farmers and business men, but their resolve allowed them to defeat the worlds most powerful military force.
Oh man, if only this was a history forum. I could have a field day with this one. I'll just say that things during the American Revolution were not that clear and dry by any means and I don't think you're remembering correctly :-). Sure they won but... gah, not the right forum for that.
As far as the -topic- goes, there's really no point in debating this kind of thing. It's ALL due to 1999 engine limitations. Period. And by the way, I for one would LOVE a campaign where I was just one pilot out of a hundred in a Freespace fleet action. That would be so awesome.
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As far as the -topic- goes, there's really no point in debating this kind of thing. It's ALL due to 1999 engine limitations. Period. And by the way, I for one would LOVE a campaign where I was just one pilot out of a hundred in a Freespace fleet action. That would be so awesome.
It has been tried. Look at the 158th Exposition demo.
The problem is that making massive battles that are fun is extraordinarily challenging. See also: Battle of Endor syndrome.
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Exactly. The main issue with the 158th Expositions release was that most of the missions essentially played themselves due to the sheer number of friendly pilots in the area...and those that didn't were next-to-impossible due to the overwhelming number of enemies trying to kill you. It's a very difficult balancing act to accomplish.
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The usual concept of having other friendly pilots in the area going about their own thing, whilst you have an objective to complete that ensures the next stage of the operation can go ahead usually works, provided this objective is challenging enough.
Also, camaraderie within the wing and the rest of the squadron also works wonders, in my opinion. The 158th lacked this.
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As far as the -topic- goes, there's really no point in debating this kind of thing. It's ALL due to 1999 engine limitations. Period. And by the way, I for one would LOVE a campaign where I was just one pilot out of a hundred in a Freespace fleet action. That would be so awesome.
Not entirely, no. It's also down to the fact that missions with large numbers of fighters just aren't really any fun.
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Well, assuming most of them are working on the same objective, which renders the mission self-playing. I've experimented with ways around that, though.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hd9qYEMuvs&NR=1 Has anyone seen that?
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Yes.
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Yep.
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Yes.
Achieving any objectives and surviving in such an environment is basically dictated by luck... death-by-beam will be by far the biggest reason for failure. No fun.
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Yes. I just forgot.
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Yes.
Achieving any objectives and surviving in such an environment is basically dictated by luck... death-by-beam will be by far the biggest reason for failure. No fun.
Missions like that can be playable and fun. Not easy to pull off, and luck will have a bigger factor, but that's life for you.
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Battle of Endor missions, done right, rock serious socks. :)
I agree that the key is to make the big battle more of a background place setting, while the player has clearly-defined, smaller goals to work towards.
One of these days I'll get around to finishing The Battle Of Deneb...
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Battle of Endor missions, done right, rock serious socks. :)
I agree that the key is to make the big battle more of a background place setting, while the player has clearly-defined, smaller goals to work towards.
One of these days I'll get around to finishing The Battle Of Deneb...
IE, supporting a specific capital ship, or attacking deisignated key targets?
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Could be a bit of both.
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I'm surprised nobody has made an Operation Thresher BoE mission.
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You are putting more thought into this discussion then [V] ever will :P.
As for the Battle of Endor missions, I suppose that they are doable if you have only one objective (Ensure that those troop transports stay alive) while other action does take place in the same mission, but 'out of your reach' (You escort something while two capships battle 5 kilometers away).
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Make it 15 kilometers and no Trebuchets.
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Derelict had that one mission, shortly after the Gorgon Cannon test(IIRC), with the GTVA fleet vs the Shivan fleet some considerable distance away, while you guard a disabled destroyer(corvette?) from incoming Shivan cruisers and bombers.
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That was indeed a cool light show. (It was a frigate, I think.)
Blue Planet had a couple BoEs significantly larger in scale than that one which directly involved the player. It can be done.
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The mission against the Nemesis from INFR1 proved that a long time before.
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I certainly wouldn't dispute that - Nemesis is a classic. I'm sure there are others too.
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Derelict had that one mission, shortly after the Gorgon Cannon test(IIRC), with the GTVA fleet vs the Shivan fleet some considerable distance away, while you guard a disabled frigate from incoming Shivan cruisers and bombers.
It's a frigate. GTFf Saphah.
That was an excellent mission, made better by the BoE happening a good distance away.
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Well, assuming most of them are working on the same objective, which renders the mission self-playing. I've experimented with ways around that, though.
Perhaps another possibility is have the player guard something important. If you're going to have BoE missions with a super cap, have the player guard one or two of the main turrets against bombers trying to disable it. There's always something, even in large scale battles, that are important to the success of the mission.