Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: Fury on March 31, 2010, 01:33:37 am
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So it has been bothering me a lot recently that mod projects tend to keep their assets to themselves all the way to public release. It is understandable, since they want to have as much of an impact with fresh assets that are different from others. But therein lies a problem. Everyone else needs to keep reinventing the wheel because they have no access to assets that already exist. And if they do, they can't release them to public due to exclusivity.
This tradition of keeping assets exclusive seems to persist even though future of a project is uncertain, or even when it is already dead. In many cases said assets never see the light of day, which is sad.
There is also another problem regarding assets. When said assets are released, they often are in lossy format which makes it really hard to edit or improve them as some quality is always lost. We really, really need to start keeping original lossless assets around and distribute them to the community. Lack of lossless assets often result in having to recreate a replacement asset.
This is open community. We have small number people capable of creating outstanding assets. Assets that could be used in many projects at same time to create much better experience to player. It is my humble opinion that exclusivity hurts the community more than it helps the sole project assets are exclusive to. I've always been a supporter of open development when it comes to assets that does not spoil story.
Of course nobody can go and release others people's work without their consent, which is why I am hoping to have a good discussion on this subject. Would it be really that bad if people would create assets for the community, instead of exclusively to a project? There is so much more to gain from sharing assets than there is to lose.
But as briefly mentioned earlier, assets that would spoil a story can be exclusive. Usually those are so-called deus ex machina though, and I hope we're past those by now.
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I agree with the sentiment of this post.
I believe Aardwolf also had the idea of an assets pool at some point, though probably more related to the MediaVP assets in an open format for folks to use.
FSU have considered the idea as well internally, and AFAIK, it's on our wish/to-do list to accomplish.
The issue is with having a space for community members to post open formats of things like original source maps in uncompressed formats and models in Collada or some other easily portable cross-modeling app format.
At some point, _my_ desire is to set up either an FTP or SVN repo to do this with, but I still need to talk it over with rev_posix and sort out some hardware and a system for doing that. It'll take some time, since we are working with our limited (even if combined) assets to that end.
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This is all good in theory, but it only really works with 100% sign up, and let's be frank, you're not going to get that. Moreover, sometimes the assets are key to the storyline without being DeM devices. The best example I can give you is, of course, one from TI, since that's the mod I'm most familiar with. I could see some of our ships getting put into a pool like this*, especially if it was a true pool, with beneficial give and take. But I'll pretty much guarantee the Aesir ships wont be in such a pool because they're the ingame representation of the species that form the core of the TI storyline. Releasing them to be used for other purposes completely dilutes their impact in TI if they're used first by another campaign. Similarly, while I can't be certain of this, I doubt that you guys on the BP team would be keen to release your moon surface models, or your custom Sol fleet, for basically the same reason. And then there're other hero ships, like BWO's Golgotha, that are at the core of a campaigns identity. Keeping these exclusive is, in my opinion, a good thing, because it gives you moments in a campaign that are, essentially, once in a lifetime. Imagine if the vessel that rescued you at Enif Station hadn't been the Collosus, but a Hades, which we'd all seen in Silent threat. Wouldn't that have diminished that moment? If the shivan destroyer that took out the Lysander had been a Demon? Or the superdestroyer that destroyed the Tatenen had been a lucifer? All of those moments would always have been cool, but they were also all immensely improved by the existence of brand new, never before seen ships, and as such, they only really work at their full potential once. I want that moment in TI when you see a Xolotl unleash its fury for the first time. I'm sure I'll get that feeling one day when I see the Golgotha's main beam for the first time, or when I first get to skim across the surface of the moon in WiH. IMO, the creators of those mods deserve to decide who gets the opportunity to utilize it for that once in a lifetime moment, and that it happens in a project they care about.
That said, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of really good mods that are released publically, and, as a general rule, assets in released projects are traditionally considered to be free to use, so while they are locked up, they are also (eventually) released. Dead projects as a general rule do also release their stuff. Sure, there're examples of classic lost models (Dark's stuff is one of the better examples), but there're also really great situations, like Aldo's releasing of the Reci and LS ships, or the 158th modeldump (admittedly rescinded when the project restarted, but they were released when the mod was apparently dead, so the point does still stand).
One thing I do quite strongly oppose is private conversions of publically released models, which is why I applauded Droid's release of previously exclusive conversions of Stratcomm's Vasudan fleet, and also why I released my own conversion of Aldo's PVF Nefertum. But these are a specific class of mods, largely separate from what's being discussed here.
*I can only, of course, speak for the mods I've made, not the ones made by other TI contributors, who would, of course, have to decide for themselves.
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Almost all of WiH's UEF fleet is already publicly available. We have some ships from Steve-O we only have his permission to release as part of BP. Then there is esarai's Arashi, which is being used at least in one another project other than BP. Besides those, we only have HerraTohtori's skyboxes and possibly a ship or two cobbled together by Darius. Oh, there's interface art too but templates are publicly available. In the end, WiH doesn't have that many exclusive assets really.
However, it won't take as long as you may imagine to get your grubby hands on those assets, exclusive or not. :)
Personally I wouldn't mind if HerraTohtori for example would release the skyboxes to public before WiH release, they are his assets. But those sentiments aren't necessarily shared by other staffers.
Oh and one more thing. This doesn't need 100% support from the community, that would be impossible. However, let it be said that if assets are released to public, it would be greatly appreciated by other projects that can possibly make use of them. As so much time is spent on creating assets that quite likely already exists.
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I agree, looking at the user-made ships list (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/User-made_Ships) on the wiki, I can't find a lot of high-quality (i.e. FSU/MVP quality) ships to build a post-capella fleet. For example, show me a high-quality Shivan or Vasudan destroyer. Even the terran side, which has the most ships, is lacking, with only the Raynor, the Titan and the Sirona, but neither is really really good.
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After some discussion on irc, I need to make a clarification.
The original point in releasing assets wasn't to give them in a format ready for in-game. Whoever releases the assets can use whatever format he/she wants to, but preferably in a format that is easy to convert and modify. For example, for models format could be 3ds or cob. For textures and effects psd or tga. In addition, as I said in the first post, effects and maps really should be released in lossless format as well to retain quality if someone wants to edit them.
Edit: Think about modeldump, but one that covers all assets including effects, interface, hud, music(*), you name it.
* As long as they are made by community members or someone else who gave his/her permission to use it freely.
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The problem with releasing assets as-is (ie. in a .cob or .3ds format) is that there is a serious lack of people willing to do conversions to .pof. There are a lot of models swimming around, like in modeldumps, but they're all just sitting there because nobody is converting them.
And when somebody does come along and convert them it's usually quickly snapped up by one of those blackhole vacuum mods.
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Similarly, while I can't be certain of this, I doubt that you guys on the BP team would be keen to release your moon surface models, or your custom Sol fleet, for basically the same reason.
I actually think we'd be happy to release the moon surface models - in fact, I think they may be public already - and we've shared all the custom Sol fleet ships to various parties already. We also shared our new AI and table tricks pre-release.
However, I do understand the sentiments you're espousing.
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imho the technical side of this thread will fall into place within days once we get over the big issue which is that at the moment the prevailing attitude is one of i would rarther retain control over my material. now there are many reasons for this attitue from simple i/we want to maintain the impact of my asset when the player first sees it in any given campaign to issues where people feel uncomfortable seeign other use their material for whatever reason. This will not change over night despite best intentions.
I think a one way to approach this is to encorage more comunity members to try their hand at creating new assets, esspecialy in a "freelance" cappacity in a kind of i did it because i thought it would be cool and not because i am recruited in a mod project.
One of the problems i keep running into when modding FS is that the wikki is quite fractrured on the subject and often relies on sending the reader off to company websites after giving little / fractured or otherwise incomplete information. while taking up to 3 steps to get to a list of moding topics in the catagory page.
what i would like to see is a start to finish cube ship with basic texture using blender, truespace, 3dmax at the least with a how to export to PCS2 from each and how to finish off the model in there (fine tune empty placments, etc.)
similar pages in background images, effects and sounds would also help expand the available resources.
Now i know this is a community project and everyone is limited on time but at the same time but i think it would make FS more accessable to FS newbies.
Yes i also know more input will from an expanded base of people will cause a lot of low quality stuff but if you run it like the mods in that you only support stuff directly that is of a good quality then what people find regularly will be the better stuff
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I'll add my .10 worth...
In general I agree with the publicly available or a repository for mod materials.
It keeps things from disappearing, as with many mods that have died or fallen silent.
That said, I also echo the sentiment that there's stuff you just can't release for the sake
of plot, wow factor, or what have you. Even with FS (fringespace) we have a policy of not letting
our model assets out unless we need help fixing something, or until we've got a sufficient release.
Ultimately, short of common courtesy, once something is released in the mod world, as long as you've
got the mod tools... people can grab whatever they want. It's inevitable.
To the latter part - I can suggest a solution.
Have your storage for everyone setup with a hidden (permissions) area for files that are sensitive.
Run it like a mod or admin section for a forum. The mod team has access, and have a small group of
trustworthy people that are the admin class that manages the file space itself with access to the private areas.
This solves keeping some assets hidden until needed, and it remains accessible in case the mod dies and a new team
wants to come in to pick it up. Come to think of it... sort of like "Cloud Modding."
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As to what headdie said, better documentation is always appreciated. Tis why I put together the PCS2 guide.
Really though, that kinda is another topic in and of itself... "Wiki Upgrade Project" or something...
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Another issue arises that I don't believe has been brought up so far....
What do you do in the case of a mod which is in progress, places a asset on the public side of things,
for it to be downloaded, and then they replace it later with an improved version? You'll end up
with bunches of different copies floating around... and if you're using say a well known FS2 ship, you'll
likely end up with even more copies.
Naming does not seem like it would be sufficient alone to solve this, as many would likely just keep the
existing model name to avoid additional table work.
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I'd also like to see some version of revision for this too. That way if there's a modification or fix to the resource then everyone can get an update for it. I was working on a very simple ftp revision, but that's far off in the horizon.
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This can also provide a spring board for future work in the case of the MediaVPs.
The first step in making a more updated retail model is one of conversion first to the modeling program in question...but what if we had a repo that already had stored all the retail models in a as-universal-a-format as possible with uncompressed textures and/or a UV-unwrap for people to start out with?
What about current already modified assets that still have flaws or are now perhaps out-dated, that can also be added to the repo (or a sub-repo) where the same can also hold true?
So this isn't just about fan-made campaign content, but also about having actual community assets in a community open format to help encourage progress for anyone who is willing, but have difficulties in getting past the first step of converting the first model to something to work off of.
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The problem with releasing assets as-is (ie. in a .cob or .3ds format) is that there is a serious lack of people willing to do conversions to .pof. There are a lot of models swimming around, like in modeldumps, but they're all just sitting there because nobody is converting them.
And when somebody does come along and convert them it's usually quickly snapped up by one of those blackhole vacuum mods.
Maybe someone should set up a Mantis for models needing conversion. That way when someone isn't busy or needs a break from other stuff they can grab one and convert it. Fighters/transports/small cap ships are usually only a couple hour job.
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Could be people too just don't know how to rig. I've heard that from at
least one project head anyway...
The information before the tut was at best, scattered and old.
I got some things wrong when I made the tut for that matter.
Turrets are still a mystery, so I shy away from working on them.
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I don't rig I just use PCS2 to do all that. Lot easier. Have to change something just reconvert and do a global import from the old version.
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I don't rig I just use PCS2 to do all that. Lot easier. Have to change something just reconvert and do a global import from the old version.
QFT, that's how I do conversions.
However, that makes providing "lossess sources" a bit more difficult cause you'd need to get the POF as well to import the data.
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Well you can export to .dae from PCS2 and that contains the helpers. Think the same is true for .cob as well.
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No, exporting to DAE/COB from PCS2 then reimporting breaks more things than you can imagine.
Especially for COB - object centers, smoothing, turret data, and more are lost.
Even with DAE you need to fix up the file in a modelling program before the reimport doesn't crash PCS2.
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The idea was to get the helpers into the modeling program via dae or cob. Yes cob looses smoothing info and other things. Don't have a problem with TBP since most of the models have no smoothing and were converted via .cob to begin with. Even dae looses rotation info and moi.
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I don't rig I just use PCS2 to do all that. Lot easier. Have to change something just reconvert and do a global import from the old version.
I seem to do the opposite, rig most things in Max (gun, eye, missile, glow, thrusters). It's easier to setup than in pcs2. I just wish glowpoints actually had a linear layout (glowpoint1, glowpoint2, glowpoint3...) It's extremely annoy and hard to setup some complicated landing lights when the order gets scrambled up.
also my version updater is actually come alone good, client side is over halfways done I think.
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IMHO, if your campaigns depends so much on "never before seen ships", then it's simply not that good.
A good campaign doesn't need that form of exclusivity as a selling point. It feels cheap. Like someone is desperately grabbing on to anything that can make his campaign "unique" so people will play it - are they so insecure, so desperate for attention?
Altough in retrospect, that approach does work.
I for one have always released things for public use as I made them, and I fully support the OP. :yes:
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Even with DAE you need to fix up the file in a modelling program before the reimport doesn't crash PCS2.
Why does no one tell me these things? It shouldn't be crashing.
Even dae looses rotation info and moi.
No one ever seemed to care before.
I just wish glowpoints actually had a linear layout (glowpoint1, glowpoint2, glowpoint3...) It's extremely annoy and hard to setup some complicated landing lights when the order gets scrambled up.
If you can find a nice way to do node ordering in DAE...
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Could you do it like pcs1 does... glowpoint01-01,glowpoint01-02, glowpoint02-01, glowpoint02-02 ?
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hey guys,
first time poster, just wanted to echo Fury's initial point, a common pool where models and other assets are available to everyone I think would improve the quality of every mod throughout. Sure some assets could be held until release, but afterwards the authors could make it a point of adding the now released assets into the common pool.
In the end, I think we would see mods with newer models throughout, and would help in at least some perspectives to keep the technology in the FS universe moving forwards...
Example: how old is an argo transport? newer mods could make use of other models that other may have built but never released out...
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:welcomeblue:
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Did you ever have a look here ? (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/User-made_Ships) I think there is already enough user-made ships to have fun.
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I think the thread is expanding on that, the wiki is a good place to start but I have a feeling that the wiki is missing quite a few models... and is it now the community default repository of content?
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There are a few others on FSMods too.
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Considering that you cannot make anyone release anything, and that many mods and modelers have put their works up (looking at you, Scooby Doo), for download, you pretty much have what you asked for already, or at least as close as you can ever come, aside from improving methods in which people can share work. Any policy you make on how people should release mod content is completely unenforceable.
Also, I agree that in some cases, new content that is "never before seen" does add cinematic value to any given mission. It also adds gameplay; engaging a cruiser that you have engaged in other mods/missions because it comes from some 'pool' would detract from any challenge in finding weaknesses, turret locations, etc. An all new enemy will require new thinking and tactics.
IMHO, if your campaigns depends so much on "never before seen ships", then it's simply not that good.
This is a silly statement. As mentioned before, new ships add new gameplay. If you release your ships prior to mod release, you run the risk of losing this, because player will develop tactics to take it down. Just think about the first time you went toe to toe with an Aelous. You still get eaten alive by flak? Or do you attempt to avoid them, because you know where they are? If I play a mission where a Hecate challenges my capships, I know right where its main guns are located, and exactly how to cripple its abilities.
Yes, this effect will wear off eventually as people play your mod multiple times. But that's to be expected. The same will happen in regards to where bomber wings jump in, or when a freighter will jump out. That doesn't mean you should sabotage that first experience by copying the events of other missions to give a predictable tactic.
Keep it the same. If people want to release content will nilly, let them and embrace it. If they want to keep it and release it with a mod later, leave them alone, as there are plenty of good reasons to do it.
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As mentioned before, new ships add new gameplay.
Then just take old ships and table-hack them with new weapons and stats. You don't need brand new assets to have a new gameplay.
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But sometimes, you want the "Wow" effect only new ships that have never been seen before can provide. And there is nothing wrong with keeping some assets secret until your release. Speaking from the BP perspective here, releasing the Fury AI to the public had some obvious benefits for us, as we could use the feedback to make it even better, not to mention that with more people looking at it, more bugs could be found. However, there are some assets you'll get to see first on release day (like, for example, the Solaris class Destroyers), because we want you to go "Wow" when they make their first appearance. That's something you can't get with stock models, and the experience would be dulled if we released the model beforehand.
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I don't see why releasing assets destroys immersion. For 5-10% of your players perhaps, but only if they use that very ship with the same weapon configuration, table stats in their own mods, under the same circumstances. You're assuming that as soon as you release an asset, everyone will know that asset as well as they know V ships.
Of course if it's about the "wow" factor of its first appearance, then it's fine.
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Table hacks will not change turret location, subsystem location, or the shape of a ship. Sure, you could make those giant beam cannons on the front of the Hecate shoot a smaller weapon, but it would look silly. You could do some less silly modifications with the tables, I know, but you will not be able to cover the dorsal side of ship that was previously left as a weak spot.
Table hacks will never provide the same "newness" as an entirely new ship. Period.
And TopAce, I agree that immersion can be left intact with stock ships. I still feel immersed playing FS/FS2 for the hundredth time. I'm never surprised. But still immersed. And I never assumed that everone would know an asset instantly upon release. What I did say is that you run that risk, and you undeniably do.
And TopAce, where did you get 5-10% from? You just made it up. Can you refrain from using imaginary statistics please?
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And TopAce, where did you get 5-10% from? You just made it up. Can you refrain from using imaginary statistics please?
That's why he said perhaps. Reading correctly is the first step to wisdom
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Let me clarify:
Someone makes a new ship available to the masses, makes an HLP thread about it, and uploads it to FSMods, and maybe some other mirrors. When will you download it? Of course, if you want to use it for your own mod. For the sake of using your bandwidth, you don't download FS mods. So casual players are already out of the question because they don't have their own mods in which they plan to use the said ship. And fewer than 100% of people with their own mods in development will download a new ship.
It'd be very surprising if I knew exact statistics about the player:modder ratio in the community. If I did, I would boast with it, upload it on the wiki, and my custom title would be "Statistics Guy". That's why I'm limited to guesses. It's a guess, it's inaccurate, and I didn't say my numbers were correct. I was trying to make the point that even if the given ships are released before the campaign it's supposed to feature first, it's only a marginal number of players that will not experience the great "first encounter". (And was someone threatening you with a gun that if you won't download that ship there'll be trouble? I don't think so.) See my experience about the Ticonderoga below. Warning: I'm completely aware that it's my personal experience, so don't generalize it. It's the best I can offer to make my point. If you've got a different experience about the issue, you experienced it under different circumstances: A different ship, a different mission, a different mod.
If you're a modder, it's likely that you'll change the tables a bit to make it match your mod's weapons and style. You will ideally learn about all the turret locations, but there's no guarantee that when you encounter the said ship in someone else's mod, you'll already be able to predict how the other modder used that ship.
It happens that I have some similar experience with the Ticonderoga, Hamano's Leviathan-upgrade cruiser. I use it in my mod, and I encountered it while testing for CoW3. Of course I thought I knew the Ticonderoga, but ShadowWolf and I use the Tico under different circumstances and it's got different guns, so I had to replay the said mission three or four times to learn where the AAAs are located and which ones are the anti-warship guns. Eventually it turned out I wasn't even supposed to approach it. The mission happens to be built so. And CoW and my mod use a completely different set of weapons that the player can use. It was a different experience, and it didn't matter that I knew about the Tico's shape and had some vague idea where its more vulnerable spots are. If the mission is built in a way that you cannot exploit the ship's weakness (if there's any) then you could have spent your whole life investigating the said ship's POF file and creating missions that allowed different scenarios to play out, you just won't be able to your knowledge because the other mission designer has a different way of thinking about what any given mod can be used for.
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You're right, that's your experience, and its a good one. I don't claim its impossible to make a new experience using table edits, I claim that it wouldn't be 'as new' as new ship, which is true. And let's face it, if all you ever needed were table edits to get what you needed, then you wouldn't need any pre-released models in the first place, as your Ticonderoga story illustrates. But we do want new models. Claiming that table edits are enough to make the experience unique puts a big dent in any argument that releasing visual assets early is needed at all. (NOTE: I did not say AI or other programming assets)
I attacked your statistic because its a pet-peeve of mine. It only makes a point to people that assume you have some sort of data backing that up. @MattTheGeek: It doesn't matter if he put "perhaps" after it. Its obviously an estimation based on the simple fact that he gave a range. The issue I have is that his obvious estimation is based on nothing but his unsupported guess. Trying to make a point with it is meaningless because its completely made up. It would be like me walking into a room and demanding we remove everything made of styrofoam because I think that perhaps 5-10% of the people in the room will die from it. If my statistic was true, then we should remove the styro. Since my statistic is made up, based entirely on what my gut says, we still don't know if the light fluffy substance should be removed. The 5-10% was totally pointless, still is, and always will be. I read it just fine, thank you.
I really doubt you can have any feel or make any prediction on how many players would see your ship prior to release of your mod. If you release the asset early and it gets plugged into a mod/mission that is released before yours, players will be able to see this ship. How many players download the mod and play it is going to be based on its quality and popularity, and little else.
I would also like to state (again-ish) that I am not opposed to releasing assets early. My original statement is still what I believe: There are benefits to releasing assets early. There are benefits to not (both gameplay and otherwise). We should embrace the free and easy sharing of these assets when people decide they want to release them, and we should not judge others mods as "simply not that good" if someone wants to keep the assets until a full release.
Regardless of what anyone thinks, there isn't much anyone can do to enforce their opinion on the topic. You cannot force anyone to release assets, and you cannot force people to keep their mods bundled up tight until release. So its a pretty lame topic of discussion anyways.
If someone wants, it wouldn't be a bad idea to organize a team with the goal of making royalty free assets for everyone to use in there mods. The team could make tons of assets that are soley for the use of the public, taking request for customizations for mod makers to the ships.