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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on April 02, 2010, 08:22:59 pm

Title: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Kosh on April 02, 2010, 08:22:59 pm
 Wow (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1572190/), a look at the rise and fall of Detroit. Man I wouldn't want to be anywhere near that place, what a mess.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Bobboau on April 03, 2010, 03:05:53 am
if we had anyway to watch this there might be more responses.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Kosh on April 03, 2010, 04:33:57 am
 Here (http://www.downarchive.com/movies/documentary/113154-bbc-requiem-for-detroit-2010-a-post-industrial.html), at the bottom.


Here's a pic of someplace in Detroit to get people curious:

(http://i43.tinypic.com/20h0txj.jpg)
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Bobboau on April 03, 2010, 05:29:15 am
kinda looks like east st.louis.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Kosh on April 03, 2010, 06:04:58 am
It's probably worse. Highest high school dropout rate in the country, one of the highest unemployment, one of the highest murder rates, lowest average housing price, high illiteracy (for a city in a developed country), massive numbers of abandoned homes and buildings (shrinking population). Hard to believe 50 years ago it was a very affluent city, one of america's jewels in the proverbial crown.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: TESLA on April 03, 2010, 07:43:34 am
Here (http://www.downarchive.com/movies/documentary/113154-bbc-requiem-for-detroit-2010-a-post-industrial.html), at the bottom.


Here's a pic of someplace in Detroit to get people curious:

(http://i43.tinypic.com/20h0txj.jpg)


Bombed during the iraq war?   :D

Well thats just a massive social upheaval waiting to explode!
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: mister J on April 03, 2010, 11:19:26 am
the entire documentary is available in its entirety, in one single part and in divided parts on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7DA697984F1DB2B7&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&v=ReqG6qbx_c0 - movie in 8 parts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OpXhd7iau8 - whole movie

interesting docu. You can shoot a horror film in those large empty buildings. creepy  :blah:
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Kosh on April 03, 2010, 11:31:17 am
Quote
interesting docu. You can shoot a horror film in those large empty buildings. creepy 

They are real life horror movies.


Spoiler:
What kind of annoyed me was when that old woman close to the end said something like "this is the future", and all I could think was "if this is the future of the US then I'm glad I'm not there anymore...." Definately a WTF moment.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Flipside on April 03, 2010, 12:32:16 pm
It needs to be borne in mind that this is also a lesson on focussing an entire area on a single industry, Detroit bears a great deal of resemblence to 'Ghost Towns' that were dotted all over the US after the Gold Rush, different scale, but very similar cause.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Bobboau on April 03, 2010, 12:45:22 pm
just watched the whole thing, yeah, it's just like East St.Louis, it's just larger scale.

so Detroit was a one trick ponny and the people in charge of that trick were arrogant and lost to a superior product, the entire industry collapsed and the town went with it. everyone with any degree of wealth or skill fled you were left with a huge population of poor unskilled uneducated people who started eating the ruins of what there city once was. but the reason they are so quick to cannibalize their city is because they didn't feel like it was there city, they felt it was a prison and they were just trying to survive. The end of it made me feel good it looked like a bunch of people learning that they are the only people that can help themselves. there's no jobs so what they do is they restart everything, they start growing there own food. the fate of that town and community is in the hands of the people who built it up, propping it up only retards this understanding in the people. they look like they are starting to take ownership of there town, Detroit is a ****hole, it has been for a few decades now, it'll be interesting to see how it develops in the future.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Blue Lion on April 03, 2010, 03:33:02 pm
This happened all the time to coal towns and gold mine towns and steel towns, just never on this scale. The city will be rebuilt eventually.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Snail on April 03, 2010, 04:04:07 pm
Do you think deindustrialisation of this scale could happen in China?
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Flipside on April 03, 2010, 04:20:04 pm
Depends on both the market and the marketting. Dubai is facing a shaky period because it has based its economy so heavily on...well.. the economy, nature proves that diversity is the key to survival, and I don't think industry follows all too different a set of rules.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Blue Lion on April 03, 2010, 04:29:19 pm
Do you think deindustrialisation of this scale could happen in China?

Could it? Sure. Will it? Doubtful. I'm sure there are towns in China that simply stopped being useful and packed up, but I doubt they would be at the scale Detroit was.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Bobboau on April 03, 2010, 06:26:16 pm
well it could happen anywhere if you have a city that is wholly devoted to one industry and that industry tanks that town is going to tank with it, so any mining towns for instance, unless they use their money to diversify, are just a ghost town waiting to happen.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Mongoose on April 03, 2010, 09:16:04 pm
Do you think deindustrialisation of this scale could happen in China?

Could it? Sure. Will it? Doubtful. I'm sure there are towns in China that simply stopped being useful and packed up, but I doubt they would be at the scale Detroit was.
There was actually a short story in a recent Time issue that discussed a massive new Chinese housing project that hadn't experienced anywhere near the original anticipated demand.  There were pictures of whole blocks of shiny new houses sitting there completely empty, and a brand-new highway completely empty of cars.  It's a different root cause than what's happened to Detroit, but the result could be the same.

As for Detroit itself, there are apparently some optimistic signs.  They've hired a supposedly fantastic urban planner who's essentially figuring out how to contract the city and use its land more effectively.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Blue Lion on April 03, 2010, 09:41:24 pm
Do you think deindustrialisation of this scale could happen in China?

Could it? Sure. Will it? Doubtful. I'm sure there are towns in China that simply stopped being useful and packed up, but I doubt they would be at the scale Detroit was.
There was actually a short story in a recent Time issue that discussed a massive new Chinese housing project that hadn't experienced anywhere near the original anticipated demand.  There were pictures of whole blocks of shiny new houses sitting there completely empty, and a brand-new highway completely empty of cars.  It's a different root cause than what's happened to Detroit, but the result could be the same.

As for Detroit itself, there are apparently some optimistic signs.  They've hired a supposedly fantastic urban planner who's essentially figuring out how to contract the city and use its land more effectively.

The sad part is there are people in China who are beyond what we would consider broke and they're building new cities to sit empty. We might not be the only wasteful country after all.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 03, 2010, 09:43:23 pm
All I can say is that's just an example of government mis-planning in action.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Mongoose on April 03, 2010, 10:02:31 pm
To be fair, that Chinese city was planned out well in advance of the economic downturn.  If conditions had stayed similar to then, it probably would have been filled in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 03, 2010, 10:39:46 pm
Did they try downscaling the project?  That's the first thing a private contractor would do if demand might not meet the new supply.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Kosh on April 04, 2010, 12:17:07 am
Quote
There was actually a short story in a recent Time issue that discussed a massive new Chinese housing project that hadn't experienced anywhere near the original anticipated demand.  There were pictures of whole blocks of shiny new houses sitting there completely empty, and a brand-new highway completely empty of cars.  It's a different root cause than what's happened to Detroit, but the result could be the same.

Welcome to the collapse of a real estate bubble.

Thing is even though there was a real estate bubble, there is a real demand for new housing because of urbanization. Where most of the "ghost towning" is happening is in the villages.

Quote
The sad part is there are people in China who are beyond what we would consider broke and they're building new cities to sit empty. We might not be the only wasteful country after all.

Those are private land developers who build that stuff (mostly). Economics doesn't work like that.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Mongoose on April 04, 2010, 01:24:01 am
Did they try downscaling the project?  That's the first thing a private contractor would do if demand might not meet the new supply.
I think the point the article was making was that they had just about everything built before the economy dropped out.  There was anticipated demand for all of these new houses, but after they were finished, no one wanted to buy them.  Apparently, if China's housing bubble does a full-fledged burst, it could mean an even longer stint of misery for the global economy as a whole.

Koth, I don't know if you can access the specific article here (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1975336,00.html), but the region it's talking about is the Kangbashi district of Ordos City, Inner Mongolia, if that means anything specific to you.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Deka1184 on April 04, 2010, 02:20:50 am
imfromdetroit  :sigh:

i was fortunate enough to grow up in the suburbs, but now i'm going to college in "the city", and man.... is it depressing.

i cant stand it when people try to infuse a note of positive-ness when talking about detroit. its not only dead, its decomposed to its bones. i can't wait to leave this forsaken state.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 04, 2010, 03:03:21 am
My heart goes out to anyone from Detroit.  It's current state is a splendid example of leadership that was and is poorly equipped on any level to deal with the problems facing that once great city.  As a side note, this is what's going to happen in a lot more cities and towns if you have some dimbulb politician, who's only real interest is in how much power they can accumulate, raise taxes on corporations so that they pay "their fair share" to get the votes of the great unwashed masses. 

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that America is dead over the last few hours, it's only a matter of time before her heart stops beating and the worms burst through the surface of her rotting corpse.  It doesn't matter who's right any more, you guys have won and it's done, the greatest country the world has ever seen will be little more than a memory in 10 or 20 years, and nothing can stop it.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 04, 2010, 03:28:41 am
:doubt:

I'm just not even going to bother, because I know you're not going to listen when I tell you GM, Ford, and Chrysler killed Detroit and Flint when they sent all their factories to Mexico and Canada so they could make even more money on top of record profits during the 60s through 90s.

And I know you won't listen to me when I explain to you how badly the 1973 oil embargo affected the muscle car and light truck industry, which was damn near the domestic manufacturers' mainstay for the longest time, and how many people lost jobs there. 

But you will take the opportunity to make a snide reference to how you think the evil liberals destroyed Detroit, and how you think Obama's going to do the same thing to the US.  Congratulations, you've again let rhetoric and your Fox-distorted view of America take place of actual research into the automotive industry and the history of Detroit, and it's still making you look stupid.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: el_magnifico on April 04, 2010, 03:34:45 am
My heart goes out to anyone from Detroit.  It's current state is a splendid example of leadership that was and is poorly equipped on any level to deal with the problems facing that once great city.  As a side note, this is what's going to happen in a lot more cities and towns if you have some dimbulb politician, who's only real interest is in how much power they can accumulate, raise taxes on corporations so that they pay "their fair share" to get the votes of the great unwashed masses.  

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that America is dead over the last few hours, it's only a matter of time before her heart stops beating and the worms burst through the surface of her rotting corpse.  It doesn't matter who's right any more, you guys have won and it's done, the greatest country the world has ever seen will be little more than a memory in 10 or 20 years, and nothing can stop it.

Quote
"¡Bárbaros! Las ideas no se matan."

"Barbarians! You can't kill ideologies."

-Domingo Faustino Sarmiento (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domingo_Faustino_Sarmiento).

And may I add, ideologies never die so easily, if ever. There's always going to be communists, capitalists, fascists, monarchists. Countries are nothing but particular instances of ideologies in this case, and they will come and go with history. That's why you have to fight with your brains. Land is just... well... land. Don't get yourself tied to it.

That being said, you know perfectly I don't always agree with you, and I'm not sure ideological fundamentalism is a good thing. But don't get depressed, some day there will be capitalism in Cuba. ;)
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Kosh on April 04, 2010, 04:39:13 am
My heart goes out to anyone from Detroit.  It's current state is a splendid example of leadership that was and is poorly equipped on any level to deal with the problems facing that once great city.  As a side note, this is what's going to happen in a lot more cities and towns if you have some dimbulb politician, who's only real interest is in how much power they can accumulate, raise taxes on corporations so that they pay "their fair share" to get the votes of the great unwashed masses. 

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that America is dead over the last few hours, it's only a matter of time before her heart stops beating and the worms burst through the surface of her rotting corpse.  It doesn't matter who's right any more, you guys have won and it's done, the greatest country the world has ever seen will be little more than a memory in 10 or 20 years, and nothing can stop it.


So what are you planning to do? Make a run for the border?
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 04, 2010, 05:10:28 am
Heh, if I thought there was someplace better I might consider it, but the whole damn planet isn't far behind.  I'm not saying stone age, but a total global economic collapse is imminent.  The gods damned politicians, may Satan take they're eyes, have fudged the numbers too long and too large.  It's not capitalism or socialism that has failed(well, socialism did in the form of Communist USSR, but that's neither here nor there) we have failed because we put too much power in too few hands and didn't prepare well enough ahead of time to take it back and give it to other less corrupted hands.  The whole system is rotted down to the local level and there's no way to clean it, the patient wouldn't survive the process.

I've come to the conclusion that the reason I'm always apart from everyone else is that I don't see things the same way.  Everyone seems to be out for themselves and damn anyone who gets in their way.  I'm not like that.  I'm not saying I pick up hitch hikers(freaky, freaky dangerous), but no one seems to care that the Government is corrupt down to the last congressional page and document runner.  None of them are bad people necessarily, but what they want and do is not what is good for the country or the people they are supposed to be leading.  In the case of Ms. Pelosi, she has an 11% approval rating, her running buddy, Mr. Reid is 9%.  How can they possibly claim to represent they're whole district if 89 to 91% of they constituents don't like what they're doing?  But I bet they get reelected.  Because better the devil you know, than the devil you don't.

I'm tired.  Tired of all the yelling, tired of all the crying, tired of being told I'm a bad person because I don't want my country to be bankrupt and owing money to the damned Chinese or the Russians or whoever for the next 3 generations to pay for this generations unmitigated stupidity and narcissism. 

I don't want dirty air, water or soil.  I don't want people to be sick and not get the care they need when they need it.  I don't want a lot of things you all claim I do. 

No one cares about what's right or wrong any more.  Legality be damned.  We've fallen because almost no one has any care for what is ethical and what is moral.  And those that do, are ridiculed and made fun of.  We're damned, every last one of us.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Bobboau on April 04, 2010, 05:15:19 am
(most) everyone is doing what they think is right, from the rich business owner to the socialist leaning politician, the real tragedy is that almost everyone thinks they are doing whats best but no one wants to believe it. it's easier and more fun to play conspiracy theory.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Spicious on April 04, 2010, 06:46:15 am
http://theinternetguy.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/george-carlin-on-politicians-the-republican-democrat-divide/

Edit: Found a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk).
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Kosh on April 04, 2010, 09:02:08 am
Quote
I don't want people to be sick and not get the care they need when they need it.

Then why oppose legislation that would have done exactly that?

Quote
Heh, if I thought there was someplace better I might consider it, but the whole damn planet isn't far behind.  I'm not saying stone age, but a total global economic collapse is imminent.  The gods damned politicians, may Satan take they're eyes, have fudged the numbers too long and too large.  It's not capitalism or socialism that has failed(well, socialism did in the form of Communist USSR, but that's neither here nor there) we have failed because we put too much power in too few hands and didn't prepare well enough ahead of time to take it back and give it to other less corrupted hands.  The whole system is rotted down to the local level and there's no way to clean it, the patient wouldn't survive the process.

The problem is our campaign financing system and special interests. All attempts to clean it up have failed, and it will just hurt us more in the long run.

Quote
I've come to the conclusion that the reason I'm always apart from everyone else is that I don't see things the same way.

To be honest I kind of doubt that, almost everything I have seen coming from you sounds like sound bites off of some motor mouth on Fox. Do yourself a favor, turn off the TV, and go to the library. Just learn.

Quote
I'm tired.  Tired of all the yelling, tired of all the crying, tired of being told I'm a bad person because I don't want my country to be bankrupt and owing money to the damned Chinese or the Russians or whoever for the next 3 generations to pay for this generations unmitigated stupidity and narcissism. 

We've been on this path for 30 years and 4 presidents, not including our current one and 3 of them were Republicans. There's been only one time that we've run a budget surplus, and that was during a Democratic administration. IIRC, I do think you voted for Bush, who did more to expand government than any other president since LBJ at least once. It seems to me that kind of makes you part of the problem. Maybe you learned, who did you vote for in the last election?

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None of them are bad people necessarily, but what they want and do is not what is good for the country or the people they are supposed to be leading.  In the case of Ms. Pelosi, she has an 11% approval rating, her running buddy, Mr. Reid is 9%.  How can they possibly claim to represent they're whole district if 89 to 91% of they constituents don't like what they're doing?  But I bet they get reelected.  Because better the devil you know, than the devil you don't.

This is the problem with our system the way it is, instead of having one set of brainwashed party drones we have two, who keep voting for anyone who has a d or an r next to their name depending on their affiliation. Third party candidates are generally squeezed out by our financing system and the media.

Quote
No one cares about what's right or wrong any more.

In many ways that isn't really true. 50 years ago it wasn't wrong in the south to lynch black people, now we think it is. 100 years ago children working in dirty and dangerous factories wasn't considered wrong either, now thanks to the unions we do. I'd say we've actually made some progress, though there is much to be done.

Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2010, 09:06:28 am
*snip*

Actually, the government today is way less corrupt than it was in the 1800s and early 20th century.

If the world is on the verge of falling apart, why is the global economy so much stronger than it's ever been? Why are standards of living up, wars down, and civil rights generally improved?
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Blue Lion on April 04, 2010, 09:22:53 am
*snip*

Actually, the government today is way less corrupt than it was in the 1800s and early 20th century.

If the world is on the verge of falling apart, why is the global economy so much stronger than it's ever been? Why are standards of living up, wars down, and civil rights generally improved?

I'm not sure, but you have to admit, it was a pretty good "We're doooooomed" speech.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 04, 2010, 09:29:05 am
See this is where I'm confused...Liberator just expressed everything I think is wrong with the US but we've 180 opposite each other for a while.

Lib, we really want the same things...you're just letting the wrong people tell you what's best for the country.  Fox isn't looking out for you.  The Republican Party isn't looking out for you.  In fact, you've been outright opposes to the only folks that are trying to look out for you, because some fat cat commentator told you he was a bad guy. 
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: swashmebuckle on April 04, 2010, 10:04:06 am
In the case of Ms. Pelosi, she has an 11% approval rating, her running buddy, Mr. Reid is 9%.  How can they possibly claim to represent they're whole district if 89 to 91% of they constituents don't like what they're doing?  But I bet they get reelected.  Because better the devil you know, than the devil you don't.
I'm assuming those approval ratings are national figures, because when it comes to her actual constituents in the CA 8th district Pelosi is actually really solid.  Her positions are pretty well in line with the local majority opinions and she routinely obliterates the competition in elections by 4:1 margins.  She might actually be more popular now than ever thanks to her leading role in the healthcare bill, even though it isn't what she or most San Franciscans wanted in terms of a strong public option, etc.  Seems the same isn't the case for Reid, but who knows, maybe there's enough people in Nevada with pre-existing conditions who will now be able to survive until November to tip it for him :lol:
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 04, 2010, 12:04:55 pm
I swear, having someone like Pelosi and her too-tight Botoxed face be from the same state as me... *shudder*  My damn state's also responsible for Boxer, Feinstein, and Moonbeam Jerry Brown who with his no-new-infrastructure policies as governor is responsible for our state's current gridlock, and likes the oppressive laws preventing new housing that Marin County has and thinks the rest of the state should follow suit.

And yeah, I'm from the other, non-insane California.  Yes, there are two Californias.  The coast from LA County on up is blue, and the coast south of LA and pretty much everything inland is red.

And no offense Nuclear, but I don't feel Obama is looking out for me, not when he's letting his half-brother in Kenya live on less than a dollar a month. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/2590614/Barack-Obamas-lost-brother-found-in-Kenya.html)  Unless of course that man's position has improved due to his half-brother helping him out since then, but I doubt it.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2010, 12:06:08 pm
I thought you were against government handouts, SpardaSon.

Why is it Obama's job to take care of his half-brother? I don't think you'd hold a normal citizen responsible for subsidizing his unfortunate half-sibling; in fact you'd probably accuse the guy of being a leech. My own parents have been quite principled about staying out of the affairs of their siblings, who are all troubled in various legal, economic, and mental ways.

If the president were helping him out, I'm sure there'd be an outcry over nepotism unbecoming to his office. How the hell would it look if the President of the United States bailed out his half-brother, rather than doing something for the millions of others who suffer in a similar situation? That's something I'd expect from a South American junta.

What an absurd accusation to sink to.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 04, 2010, 12:55:55 pm
No, I'm not against private charity at all.  If you want to donate money to feed the poor, that's great.  I'm not going to stop someone from doing what he wants with his money as long as he isn't hiring hitmen and funding extortion and fraud schemes with it.  What I am against is forced redistribution of wealth, and the government manages to do little with what it takes. (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/1990/09/BG791nbsp-How-Poor-are-Americas-Poor)  Most of that talks about how "poor" American poor really are, but there are some lovely tidbits about what the government has managed to accomplish with its trillions of dollars in spending on its War on Poverty.

And GB, the irony of the situation is we Obama telling us we all have to look out for each other and how we're all in this together, and yet we have him ignoring his half-brother and letting him barely get by all while he harangues us about how greedy and selfish we are, despite America being the most charitable nation in the world (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=content.view&cpid=736&print=1).  Obama could easily send his half-brother a few hundred dollars every two weeks if he wanted since the President makes at least $200,000, but he would rather talk about American greed and selfishness.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Scotty on April 04, 2010, 12:58:55 pm
You're still not answering why he should.  It's his half-brother from a father he barely ever knew.  Might as well be a step-brother from a step-father that came into the family after he left the house, for how close they are.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2010, 01:06:52 pm
Right. If I were in his situation I don't think I'd be doing much for him. He's as much a stranger to me as every other guy in the area.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 04, 2010, 01:08:13 pm
Why should he?  How about to avoid hypocrisy?  Obama's rhetoric is commonly about how we should all look out for one another.  To call Americans selfish and greedy while bringing in 200 grand a year and not giving any money to your poverty-stricken half-brother is hypocrisy at its finest.

If Obama weren't a major fan of government wealth redistribution and justifying those claims by saying Americans aren't charitable enough I wouldn't mind him letting his half-brother rot at all, it's what I would do.  But I certainly wouldn't talk about us needing to do more for each other while my half-brother lives in a ramshackle hut.

EDIT: My whole problem with this situation is how Obama's actions don't match his rhetoric.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Scotty on April 04, 2010, 01:11:05 pm
Quote
Why should he?  How about to avoid hypocrisy?  Obama's rhetoric is commonly about how we should all look out for one another.  To call Americans selfish and greedy while bringing in 200 grand a year and not giving any money to your poverty-stricken half-brother is hypocrisy at its finest.

Because not helping one specific person that he doesn't know any more than all the hundreds of millions of people on that continent automatically means he's selfish and greedy.  By itself.  Yeah, let's just stop the conversation right there, because he can't possibly be doing anything else that's not selfish and greedy if he won't help a person he doesn't know on another continent. [/sarcasm]

Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 04, 2010, 01:12:56 pm
If I were talking about us needing to do more for each other, I would probably start with helping out my family members, no matter how distant they are, especially someone who shares a father with me.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Scotty on April 04, 2010, 01:18:42 pm
That's truly a great idea [/serious], but let's change "father" to "third cousin" for approximately how close they are.  Would you be helping out someone so distantly related, provided you had the means to?  If you say yes, I suggest you start searching the family tree.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2010, 01:22:39 pm
If I were talking about us needing to do more for each other, I would probably start with helping out my family members, no matter how distant they are, especially someone who shares a father with me.

Again, even if he wanted to do I don't think he ethically could. The President of the United States can't reach out to another country and send some money to a family member without causing a ****storm.

Let's say for a moment that Obama is a massive hypocrite, though. Does that make his points any less valid?

Lastly, while I'm not a big fan of 'forced wealth redistribution', is Obama actually a big fan of it either? What has he done which evinces this?
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 04, 2010, 01:23:54 pm
1. I don't have the means to donate money.

2. I'm not spouting rhetoric about helping others.

The minute I start saying we should do more to help others while simultaneously ignoring my half-brother (look, this is probably just me, but you should definitely be able to rely on someone who shares at least one parent with you), then you can denounce my lack of charitable giving, okay?

EDIT:  It would cause a ****storm if the President donated some of his personal income to help out his half-brother who lives in a shack?

EDIT No. 2:  As for wealth redistribution, check out Obamacare and its provisions on subsidies.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 04, 2010, 01:28:32 pm
Again, even if he wanted to do I don't think he ethically could. The President of the United States can't reach out to another country and send some money to a family member without causing a ****storm.
Sure he could, ever hear of Western Union?  Aslo, how would it cause a ****storm? 
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Blue Lion on April 04, 2010, 01:34:41 pm
Again, even if he wanted to do I don't think he ethically could. The President of the United States can't reach out to another country and send some money to a family member without causing a ****storm.
Sure he could, ever hear of Western Union?  Aslo, how would it cause a ****storm? 

Obama uses taxpayer money to give cash to his family! Did we elect this guy to give money to his relatives? Let him use his bootstraps!
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2010, 01:37:19 pm
Again, even if he wanted to do I don't think he ethically could. The President of the United States can't reach out to another country and send some money to a family member without causing a ****storm.
Sure he could, ever hear of Western Union?  Aslo, how would it cause a ****storm? 

President sends money to unknown half-brother in Africa while Americans starve! Obama bails out/subsidizes family members!
1. I don't have the means to donate money.

2. I'm not spouting rhetoric about helping others.

The minute I start saying we should do more to help others while simultaneously ignoring my half-brother (look, this is probably just me, but you should definitely be able to rely on someone who shares at least one parent with you), then you can denounce my lack of charitable giving, okay?

EDIT:  It would cause a ****storm if the President donated some of his personal income to help out his half-brother who lives in a shack?

EDIT No. 2:  As for wealth redistribution, check out Obamacare and its provisions on subsidies.

I don't mean to denounce your lack of charitable giving, I mean that a) it doesn't matter if Obama doesn't walk the walk, it's the talk that's important (though personally I think he does both) and b) he doesn't know the guy at all. Why should he be expected to take care of his philandering dad's other baby?

I don't think Obamacare represents any significant effort towards wealth redistribution. Not that America doesn't need it. I'd like to have a middle class again.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Blue Lion on April 04, 2010, 01:55:42 pm
People used to freak out when he and Mrs Obama would go out to places to eat or he would go to basketball games. Imagine if he uses his salary he gets from the taxpayers to send it to a distant relative that isn't even in the country or a citizen (I believe?).

Would I care? No, but I'm rational.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2010, 01:57:01 pm
Remember the burger incident? Didn't he ask for grey poupon or something, and it caused a minor kerfuffle?
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 04, 2010, 02:08:08 pm
Ha, if that ever happened, he could just dodge it by talking about how he was helping out a family member who needed his help.  It's hard to attack a man who's helping out his half-brother who lives in a shack, especially if he is sending his own money to do it.  An attack could backfire pretty heavily on Republicans if Obama played his cards right.

If Obamacare isn't enough, how about him telling Joe the Plumber "I think it's good for everyone when you spread the wealth around".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoqI5PSRcXM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoqI5PSRcXM)
Seems like that's a pretty big statement in favor of wealth redistribution.

And GB, you say you support free markets, yet support government money being handed out to people? :wtf:  No offense, but those two are pretty incompatible.  Spreading the wealth around is a disincentive to wealth creation.  Why start a small business if the government is just going to take your wealth and spread it around, especially if you are already receiving some of the wealth that is being spread around by the government?

And before you mention that this stuff already happens on a regular basis, let me just mention that I am opposed to all forms of subsidies and government handing out money.  Americans are more than capable of freely spreading their wealth around, (http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=content.view&cpid=736&print=1) and private charity has a much larger beneficial effect than government handouts, probably because private charities usually require some form of commitment by the beneficiary.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Scotty on April 04, 2010, 02:15:47 pm
Quote
And GB, you say you support free markets, yet support government money being handed out to people?   No offense, but those two are pretty incompatible.

No, they are not.  Free market refers to trade, government money "handouts" are purely capital.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2010, 02:17:07 pm
*snip*

You talk about 'wealth creation' and the value of small businesses but the fact is that these forms of enterprise are already essentially dead, at least when compared to huge businesses and the financial elite.

I don't think that has anything to do with government handouts.

When the top 1% controls more than half the nation's wealth, I think intervention is required on some level. Some systemic change.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: BengalTiger on April 04, 2010, 02:44:48 pm
See this is where I'm confused...Liberator just expressed everything I think is wrong with the US but we've 180 opposite each other for a while.

Lib, we really want the same things...you're just letting the wrong people tell you what's best for the country.  Fox isn't looking out for you.  The Republican Party isn't looking out for you.  In fact, you've been outright opposes to the only folks that are trying to look out for you, because some fat cat commentator told you he was a bad guy. 

I see that the libs seem to use Fox as a scapegoat. Every time a republican disagrees it's because Fox brainwashed them.

And I'm willing to bet $$$ that Lib doesn't feel need anyone to look out for him, and that includes Fox and the GOP.

Right. If I were in his situation I don't think I'd be doing much for him. He's as much a stranger to me as every other guy in the area.

Well, donating a few $ a month isn't doing much for president Obama. It's more/less like giving a beggar a coin or 2 once in a while for us regular people.

Spreading the wealth around is a disincentive to wealth creation.

I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.

Benjamin Franklin
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2010, 02:47:05 pm
We've created a nice little simulacrum here of how a totally inconsequential thing becomes blown out of proportion, conflated with apocalyptic end-of-the-country rhetoric, and then made out to be a major factor in the quality of the President.

Hooray!
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 04, 2010, 03:04:52 pm
*snip*

You talk about 'wealth creation' and the value of small businesses but the fact is that these forms of enterprise are already essentially dead, at least when compared to huge businesses and the financial elite.

I don't think that has anything to do with government handouts.

When the top 1% controls more than half the nation's wealth, I think intervention is required on some level. Some systemic change.

So you are comparing a multi-national company that services the needs of whole countries with total employments in the tens of thousands and assets in the tens of millions or billions to "Sister Frieda's House of Cuts Hair Salon" that services the needs of a single town where it has at least 3 other competitors with employment of 8 people and assets in the tens of thousands?  Further, you realize that there are only a few dozen of these megacorps and there are quite literally hundreds of thousands of the other ones right?
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: BengalTiger on April 04, 2010, 03:16:56 pm
We've created a nice little simulacrum here of how a totally inconsequential thing becomes blown out of proportion, conflated with apocalyptic end-of-the-country rhetoric, and then made out to be a major factor in the quality of the President.

Hooray!

Well this is the General Discussion forum after all...
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2010, 03:20:37 pm
*snip*

You talk about 'wealth creation' and the value of small businesses but the fact is that these forms of enterprise are already essentially dead, at least when compared to huge businesses and the financial elite.

I don't think that has anything to do with government handouts.

When the top 1% controls more than half the nation's wealth, I think intervention is required on some level. Some systemic change.

So you are comparing a multi-national company that services the needs of whole countries with total employments in the tens of thousands and assets in the tens of millions or billions to "Sister Frieda's House of Cuts Hair Salon" that services the needs of a single town where it has at least 3 other competitors with employment of 8 people and assets in the tens of thousands?  Further, you realize that there are only a few dozen of these megacorps and there are quite literally hundreds of thousands of the other ones right?

what

I don't quite understand your point, but all in all, I'd prefer for small businesses to account for a greater share of the wealth. As has been said again and again, 1% of the people controlling 80% of the wealth is an aristocracy. I'd rather have a strong middle class.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 04, 2010, 03:40:04 pm
The flaw in your argument is that an aristocracy doesn't usually work 80 to 100 hours a week.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Blue Lion on April 04, 2010, 03:48:14 pm
The flaw in your argument is that an aristocracy doesn't usually work 80 to 100 hours a week.

I think the flaw in your argument was he was talking more about businesses and not the workers. So unless a business works 80-100 hours a week you've tried to jump horses mid race.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2010, 03:53:40 pm
The flaw in your argument is that an aristocracy doesn't usually work 80 to 100 hours a week.

Neither do the wealth-holders; the two stations are essentially comparable.

You're under the illusion that these people received their stations largely by dessert. One does not get ahead by hard work.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 04, 2010, 04:04:01 pm
I believe this man:
(http://images.askmen.com/galleries/men/donald-trump/pictures/donald-trump-picture-4.jpg)
would disagree with you.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 04, 2010, 04:19:55 pm
Yeah GB, you've talked about the lack of upwards mobility.  And your solution is to just give money to the middle class in the hope they'll do something with it?  The only possible way the middle class will get ahead is through creating their own wealth, not merely having it taken from the rich and given to them.  Too much redistribution will kill wealth creation, and that will cause economic stagnation and lack of mobility.  Increased opportunities for small business creation and for small business owners to create and hold onto wealth is what will create upwards mobility.  Also, increasing income taxes to pay for redistribution may backfire since a lot of small businesses are subchapter-S corporations which count company profits as personal income for the owners.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2010, 04:22:52 pm
No, giving money to the middle class is not my solution.

I don't have a specific solution. Stop leaping to conclusions about my political views.

Liberator: did you mean to shoot yourself in the foot? Because Donald Trump is the son of a wealthy real estate magnate. So you're proving the point that the rich get richer, but not much else.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 04, 2010, 10:29:39 pm
I'm really confused.

Liberator complains about how the elite are ruining this country, then he jumps right back to defend the rights of Donald Trump and other CEOs to get richer.

SpardaSon complains about the lack of compassion in America, then goes on to bash a system that's going to take care of people at the expense of a rich guy's sixth Porsche.

Both say America's hope lies in small businesses in small towns across the country, but both jump to defend the huge corporations that enter (either with or against the town's wishes) and suck small businesses dry since they can't compete.

You're both confusing me.

The reason I argue for taxing the rich to make life better for the sick and starving is because I care--with a few notable exceptions you don't see a fat chunk of a rich guy's paycheck going towards funding soup kitchens or paying their employees' medical bills.  That's why the government has to step in and say "Alright, you can't be a selfish prick anymore--these people need it a lot more than you."

And government regulations exist so they can't monopolize or drive small businesses out.  And you're all arguing against those regulations.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 05, 2010, 12:23:19 am
SpardaSon complains about the lack of compassion in America, then goes on to bash a system that's going to take care of people at the expense of a rich guy's sixth Porsche.
Except that you have scaled rich down so low, that you aren't talking about some guy's 6th Porche, you are talking about affecting a person's ability to care for they're families the way they see fit.  You are doing the one thing freedom loving people shouldn't, you are affecting one person's freedom in a negative way to effect another person's freedom, also in a negative way.  The only fairness in a system based on "leveling the playing field" or "giving back to the poor" is the equality of misery.
Quote
And government regulations exist so they can't monopolize or drive small businesses out.  And you're all arguing against those regulations.
I'm not arguing against reasonable regulation, hell, most of the corporations being regulated accept the idea that they need to be regulated.  But you aren't talking about regulation, you are talking about onerous, irresponsible levels of taxation that are going to affect the ability of the private sector to pull us out of this recession. 

If you look at the employment statistics, the only sector that has been holding steady in employment is the public sector, federal and most state employees.  The private sector, the actual wealth generation part of the economy, isn't hiring people.  The oncoming regulations and taxes are forcing them not to, simply because they can't afford it.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 05, 2010, 12:25:10 am
SpardaSon complains about the lack of compassion in America, then goes on to bash a system that's going to take care of people at the expense of a rich guy's sixth Porsche.
Except that you have scaled rich down so low, that you aren't talking about some guy's 6th Porche, you are talking about affecting a person's ability to care for they're families the way they see fit.

Are you actually reading here? Again, the top 1% of the population controls something like 65-80% of the wealth. How is that scaled down so low?
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 05, 2010, 12:41:00 am
Not even talking about that battuta, you've scaled down the definition of rich to $200k or below.  How many people do you know that make $200k?  More than a couple I'll bet.  You are talking about raising the taxes of close to 60 or 70% of the population by a large margin to pay for a gimme program for 20% in what is essentially a vote buying scheme.

Also, I never said the "elite" were killing this country, it's the gods damned politicians.  They're supposed to provide moral leadership as well as legal but they are providing neither.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 05, 2010, 12:53:22 am
Not even talking about that battuta, you've scaled down the definition of rich to $200k or below.  How many people do you know that make $200k?  More than a couple I'll bet.  You are talking about raising the taxes of close to 60 or 70% of the population by a large margin to pay for a gimme program for 20% in what is essentially a vote buying scheme.

Also, I never said the "elite" were killing this country, it's the gods damned politicians.  They're supposed to provide moral leadership as well as legal but they are providing neither.

Tell me exactly what percentage of the population earns above 200k.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 05, 2010, 12:54:00 am
Not even talking about that battuta, you've scaled down the definition of rich to $200k or below.  How many people do you know that make $200k?  More than a couple I'll bet.  You are talking about raising the taxes of close to 60 or 70% of the population by a large margin to pay for a gimme program for 20% in what is essentially a vote buying scheme.

I'm not convinced you're actually reading Battuta's posts or forming opinions based on them anymore.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 05, 2010, 12:55:16 am
Liberator, you're a joke. You just claimed that 60-70% of the population made more than 200k. The actual figure is 3%.

Three percent.

Seriously, where do you get your figures? You do not occupy the same reality as anyone else I know.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 05, 2010, 01:32:19 am
Yeah, the only reason I know anyone that makes over $200K is because I came from a fairly-affluent area in central Indiana, and even then it was limited to the people who bought their third house out on the nearby reservoir and owned a couple boats. 

I'm talking about taxing the absolute richest to pay for the--

Oh what's the ****ing point...
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 05, 2010, 01:46:22 am
Seriously, where do you get your figures? You do not occupy the same reality as anyone else I know.

Fun fact: only the Speaker of the House makes over 200k a year in congressional salaries. I'm also fairly sure you don't make that much even as an O-6 (Colonel/Captain) but I can't find actual figures. I know you make just under 200k as a GS-15.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 05, 2010, 03:40:39 am
Yeah, government/military salaries aren't that fantastic...but the overall benefits outweigh that.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Kosh on April 05, 2010, 08:19:41 am
Quote
I see that the libs seem to use Fox as a scapegoat. Every time a republican disagrees it's because Fox brainwashed them.

You can tell when their counter points sound identical to what is coming out of Fox.

Quote
And I'm willing to bet $$$ that Lib doesn't feel need anyone to look out for him, and that includes Fox and the GOP.

So even though he lives with his mom and has almost nothing, he always complains about elites shafting to country, but turns around and defends them. Doublethink. Like it or not the government is looking after you, with health and safety regulations to ensure a safe work environment, with pollution regulations to ensure we dont frak up our water and air any more (leading to drastic improvements in the quality of the environment in the US). 

Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 05, 2010, 01:58:40 pm
Like it or not the government is looking after you, with health and safety regulations to ensure a safe work environment, with pollution regulations to ensure we dont frak up our water and air any more (leading to drastic improvements in the quality of the environment in the US).

Except up until now, they haven't been acting like a deity telling us "Thou shalt drive this car." or "Thou shalt eat this food."   Now they are.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: iamzack on April 05, 2010, 02:05:25 pm
Yeah they have. Ever notice the way they tell us we're not allowed to snort coke or smoke pot, or drink before we're 21? There's your nanny-state.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Deka1184 on April 05, 2010, 02:12:35 pm
iamzack; 0, 100, or 50 percent sarcastic?  :lol:
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: iamzack on April 05, 2010, 02:29:21 pm
0%

I'm pretty sure it's the government's job to inform me of the dangers of something, not prevent me from taking the risk. Liberator's worried about a little tax on **** that will kill us anyway (cigarettes, mcdonald's, etc) but doesn't seem to mind actual government interference.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: el_magnifico on April 05, 2010, 02:41:49 pm
He doesn't needs to be a brainwashed machine to be a rightist.
I think he sincerely believes what he thinks is the best for him and his country. He may be right or wrong, just like anyone else (and I have to admit he's a bit funny sometimes, like that depressive post in the last page), but the man defends his beliefs, and that is something to respect on him. Don't you think so?
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: StarSlayer on April 05, 2010, 02:46:22 pm
I'd be curious to see how the wealth distribution today matches up with Feudalism :D
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Deka1184 on April 05, 2010, 02:52:19 pm
Okay, I understand the drinking and pot thing, but you look at what coke does to already impovershed neighborhoods and the crazy **** people do to innocent people while jacked up and stuff, made me think you were being sarcastic.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: iamzack on April 05, 2010, 04:26:49 pm
Alcohol is just as bad as coke for that sort of thing. Addicting, lowers inhibitions, expensive, exacerbates mental/emotional problems, etc.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 05, 2010, 04:41:24 pm
Like it or not the government is looking after you, with health and safety regulations to ensure a safe work environment, with pollution regulations to ensure we dont frak up our water and air any more (leading to drastic improvements in the quality of the environment in the US).

Except up until now, they haven't been acting like a deity telling us "Thou shalt drive this car." or "Thou shalt eat this food."   Now they are.

That's funny, I thought you were in favor of additional government intervention in our lives.

Or are you actually in favor of allowing gay marriage and access to abortion now?

Also, are you just going to ignore everything said to you? Because that makes you either a moron or a troll.

Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 05, 2010, 05:46:00 pm

That's funny, I thought you were in favor of additional government intervention in our lives. After all the arguing, how on Earth could you think that?

Or are you actually in favor of allowing gay marriage and access to abortion now?  I've said all along that I support civil unions, just leave the religious thing out of it.  Abortion, also, is allowable...under certain, very specific circumstances.  Using it as a form of on demand birth control is both dangerous and moronic.

Also, are you just going to ignore everything said to you? Because that makes you either a moron or a troll.Why should I answer this when you have already concluded that I am a troll?


Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 05, 2010, 05:47:28 pm
I wouldn't conclude that you were a troll if you would respond to the questions about where you get your figures.

Otherwise you're just cruising from absurd point to absurd point.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: iamzack on April 05, 2010, 05:50:25 pm
If gays can't have marriage backed by the federal government, NOBODY CAN! :) That's equality.

Also, who gets to decide whether a woman really "needs" an abortion or not? A... government abortion panel? Perhaps?

lol
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Thaeris on April 05, 2010, 06:04:25 pm
There's always anarchy for those who will not be satisfied. Just burn, pilliage, and destroy until there's nothing left. Somalia is still on the map, so clearly they're not done yet..  :doubt:

I think the point is that balancing government regulation with personal liberties is a difficult act, and is made more so when cultural conventions change in a matter where once what was regulated by traditional morals doesn't quite do it for everyone anymore...

That said, the truth of the matter is that law is a development of a moral value or value. A law is established (or attempted to be established) when personal morals are found to be deficit or precieved to be as such. A law is thus enforced morality.

Lastly, it's hard to not be cited as some sort of hypocrit when you desire to defend your own morals (which may or may not be ultimately of value to society) with the law, while also noting that you desire less government regulations. Simultaneously, there's also a problem when you cite that the law must be altered to enable something else, as this will also affect the actions of others, perhaps to a loss of their own livelyhoods. In any way, there's no perfect solution.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: iamzack on April 05, 2010, 06:28:54 pm
The law shouldn't be used to enforce morality. It has been, but that **** sucks. The law should be used to protect us, our property from other people.

So: my drug use only affects myself (making my momma sad doesn't count, **** you), it should not be illegal. Stealing to feed my drug habit, however? Illegal.

My marrying a woman, and our receiving the thousands of benefits of marriage doesn't affect anyone else, so it shouldn't be illegal.

And since it shouldn't be legal to physically inhabit another person's body against their will, it should not be illegal to remove such a person from my body.

Et ****ing cetera.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Mongoose on April 05, 2010, 06:31:30 pm
...this thread seriously went from the economic situation in Detroit...to abortion?

Well ****ing done, people. :lol:
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: iamzack on April 05, 2010, 06:48:15 pm
i dont know where detroit is, just that its been a ****hole my whole life
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Turambar on April 05, 2010, 06:50:29 pm
i dont know where detroit is, just that its been a ****hole my whole life

that's mostly because the people who ran the big important companies that employed everyone in detroit were morons, and it caught up with them, and everyone else got screwed.

Pro-business folks will try and blame the unions, or say that unions arent necessary now that we have laws about how you can treat your employees.  That they are trying to dismantle the right of workers to unionize is actually proof in itself that unions need to continue to exist. 
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: iamzack on April 05, 2010, 07:01:42 pm
everyone sucks.

put impotence in the water.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 05, 2010, 07:08:57 pm
How do you know they aren't?
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Turambar on April 05, 2010, 07:10:02 pm
everyone sucks.

put impotence in the water.

I don't suck.  If i can't make babies, then i won't be able to pass on my not-sucking.  Also, that really should be more of a last resort if we start getting close to earth's carrying capacity (even though i think we should really stop a long time before we get there, so we can live comfortably while we invent space colonization).

How do you know they aren't?

because i have facebook friends younger than me with kids.  19 and 20 year old people with kids.  They went and made more humans before they even knew if they'd be able to pay for their educations!  downright irresponsible if you ask me.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: iamzack on April 05, 2010, 07:10:43 pm
Turambar, if you parent like your parents, your kids will hate you like you hate your parents.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 05, 2010, 07:13:24 pm
Pro-business folks will try and blame the unions,

To be fair, they have a point. It's the natural progression that once it exists it has to justify its existence by obtaining better conditions for the workers continually. Eventually they were going to push too far to be competitive. You can argue over that point for the car industry, I guess, but it's hard to beat it when talking about the steel industry.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 05, 2010, 07:22:18 pm
...this thread seriously went from the economic situation in Detroit...to abortion?

Well ****ing done, people. :lol:

All paths converge in GenDisc.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 05, 2010, 07:50:42 pm
because i have facebook friends younger than me with kids.  19 and 20 year old people with kids.  They went and made more humans before they even knew if they'd be able to pay for their educations!  downright irresponsible if you ask me.

You may whine and complain about how morals are out of date and religion is the embodiment of stupidity.  But when religion and god played a larger role in peoples lives, you didn't have nearly the percentage of the population reproducing willy nilly.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 05, 2010, 07:53:54 pm
because i have facebook friends younger than me with kids.  19 and 20 year old people with kids.  They went and made more humans before they even knew if they'd be able to pay for their educations!  downright irresponsible if you ask me.

You may whine and complain about how morals are out of date and religion is the embodiment of stupidity.  But when religion and god played a larger role in peoples lives, you didn't have nearly the percentage of the population reproducing willy nilly.

Really? Because as I recall, marriage used to happen at that age or younger for most people, and if a woman didn't have kids by the time she was 20, there was a problem.

In short: bull****.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: iamzack on April 05, 2010, 07:54:07 pm
lol, it's the religious people who get married too young and start popping out babies immediately.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 05, 2010, 08:00:20 pm
because i have facebook friends younger than me with kids.  19 and 20 year old people with kids.  They went and made more humans before they even knew if they'd be able to pay for their educations!  downright irresponsible if you ask me.

You may whine and complain about how morals are out of date and religion is the embodiment of stupidity.  But when religion and god played a larger role in peoples lives, you didn't have nearly the percentage of the population reproducing willy nilly.

Really? Because as I recall, marriage used to happen at that age or younger for most people, and if a woman didn't have kids by the time she was 20, there was a problem.

In short: bull****.

No, because people were entering the workforce at 15 or 16 instead of 25.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 05, 2010, 08:06:14 pm
because i have facebook friends younger than me with kids.  19 and 20 year old people with kids.  They went and made more humans before they even knew if they'd be able to pay for their educations!  downright irresponsible if you ask me.

You may whine and complain about how morals are out of date and religion is the embodiment of stupidity.  But when religion and god played a larger role in peoples lives, you didn't have nearly the percentage of the population reproducing willy nilly.

Really? Because as I recall, marriage used to happen at that age or younger for most people, and if a woman didn't have kids by the time she was 20, there was a problem.

In short: bull****.

No, because people were entering the workforce at 15 or 16 instead of 25.

Wrong. The 1940s, 1950s and 1960s had the highest teen birth rates of the 20th century. Right now, we are at a major low, possibly an all-time low. (http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=514)

Again, you do not bother to check whether reality matches your notions. You just spout fantasy.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Turambar on April 05, 2010, 08:07:46 pm
Obviously it isnt black/white, and lots of factors are involved.  There's infant mortality, that business with the workforce, religion, and a host of other things.

In the USA, we expect that our kids will need to be educated in order to have a good future, since all the jobs that don't require education can and probably will be outsourced (or replaced by robots).  We also have access to contraception and abortion, so if we don't want to have a kid, we can just not have one.  

People here who have kids early:
 a) never considered their kid's future.  (universal dumb)
 b) are religious, and were encouraged to have kids early, had the option of contraception removed, were never educated about contraception, couldnt get an abortion when they ****ed up and accidentally had a kid, whatever.  (cultural dumb)
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 05, 2010, 08:09:33 pm
It bemuses me that someone could maintain a worldview that can be destroyed by thirty seconds of Google.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Deka1184 on April 05, 2010, 08:25:04 pm

snip

People here who have kids early:
 a) never considered their kid's future.  (universal dumb)
 b) are religious, and were encouraged to have kids early, had the option of contraception removed, were never educated about contraception, couldnt get an abortion when they ****ed up and accidentally had a kid, whatever.  (cultural dumb)

This describes my bf's mom to the T. had her first kid at 13, second at 15, and a third one at around 20 or so.... all to her current husband who is 10 years older than she is. Having kids early also sometimes has some interesting psychological side effects. Her maturity has been frozen at a 13 year old level and the way she feels/treats her kids is.... abnormal. Of course I'm sure a lot of this is due to the fact that she was a whore growing up in DETROIT OH LOOK WE ARE BACK ON TOPIC!!!!

 ;)
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 05, 2010, 08:45:27 pm
...this thread seriously went from the economic situation in Detroit...to abortion?

Well ****ing done, people. :lol:

All paths converge in GenDisc.

HEY BATTUTA

HEALTHCARE

OBAMA

IRAQ

ABORTION
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Deka1184 on April 05, 2010, 08:47:12 pm
...this thread seriously went from the economic situation in Detroit...to abortion?

Well ****ing done, people. :lol:

All paths converge in GenDisc.

HEY BATTUTA

HEALTHCARE

OBAMA

IRAQ

ABORTION


HEY NUCLEAR1

CIRCUMCISION
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 05, 2010, 08:48:20 pm
Wow. That one takes me back. :P
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Deka1184 on April 05, 2010, 08:49:36 pm
Who was the guy that got banned over that?

I remember his custom title being "Don Quixote"

I remember it was sad he left he was an amazing modder.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 05, 2010, 08:51:15 pm
Kazan wasn't banned. He just drifted off.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 05, 2010, 09:12:47 pm
Obviously it isnt black/white, and lots of factors are involved.  There's infant mortality, that business with the workforce, religion, and a host of other things.

In the USA, we expect that our kids will need to be educated in order to have a good future, since all the jobs that don't require education can and probably will be outsourced (or replaced by robots).  We also have access to contraception and abortion, so if we don't want to have a kid, we can just not have one.  

People here who have kids early:
 a) never considered their kid's future.  (universal dumb)
 b) are religious, and were encouraged to have kids early, had the option of contraception removed, were never educated about contraception, couldnt get an abortion when they ****ed up and accidentally had a kid, whatever.  (cultural dumb)
You wouldn't need on-demand abortion if you didn't stick it in anything with two legs that said "sure, I'll have a snog!"
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: iamzack on April 05, 2010, 09:21:30 pm
on-demand abortion will always be needed, because sometimes pregnancies go wrong.

but i'm sure you mean abortion for cases where the sex was consensual and the pregnancy won't kill the mother. abortion would be less in demand if contraception were not only widely and cheaply available, but also not condemned by most religions.

but beyond that, a woman has the right to not allow the fetus possession of her organs at any time. it is her body, and no one has the right to be inside of it if she doesn't want them there. (however, i probably need to say that if the fetus can be saved, then we should try to do that. if it can't, too bad for it.)
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Ace on April 05, 2010, 09:21:34 pm
Wow. That one takes me back. :P

You know, one time we blew up a Krogan circumcision clinic. While I lost my whole team I made out like a guddam bandit.

(http://masseffect.bioware.com/resources/assets/universe/squad/screenshots/zaeed-03-p.jpg)


Sorry... couldn't resist...
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 05, 2010, 09:27:24 pm
Obviously it isnt black/white, and lots of factors are involved.  There's infant mortality, that business with the workforce, religion, and a host of other things.

In the USA, we expect that our kids will need to be educated in order to have a good future, since all the jobs that don't require education can and probably will be outsourced (or replaced by robots).  We also have access to contraception and abortion, so if we don't want to have a kid, we can just not have one.  

People here who have kids early:
 a) never considered their kid's future.  (universal dumb)
 b) are religious, and were encouraged to have kids early, had the option of contraception removed, were never educated about contraception, couldnt get an abortion when they ****ed up and accidentally had a kid, whatever.  (cultural dumb)
You wouldn't need on-demand abortion if you didn't stick it in anything with two legs that said "sure, I'll have a snog!"

But because teen pregnancy rates are down over the past few decades, this is happening

LESS THAN EVER

Do you get that?
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 05, 2010, 09:28:33 pm
...this thread seriously went from the economic situation in Detroit...to abortion?

Well ****ing done, people. :lol:

All paths converge in GenDisc.

HEY BATTUTA

HEALTHCARE

OBAMA

IRAQ

ABORTION


HEY NUCLEAR1

CIRCUMCISION

ANTI-CIRCUMCISION RAGE

CONTROVERSIAL MONKEYING
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Scotty on April 05, 2010, 09:44:34 pm
...this thread seriously went from the economic situation in Detroit...to abortion?

Well ****ing done, people. :lol:

All paths converge in GenDisc.

HEY BATTUTA

HEALTHCARE

OBAMA

IRAQ

ABORTION


HEY NUCLEAR1

CIRCUMCISION

ANTI-CIRCUMCISION RAGE

CONTROVERSIAL MONKEYING

EXASPERATED LAMENTATION ON THE STATE OF THE THREAD AS A WHOLE.

RANDOM EXPRESSION OF AMUSEMENT AT LENGTH OF QUOTE CHAIN AND COMPLETE NON-RELATION TO ORIGINAL QUOTE.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 05, 2010, 09:48:03 pm
SUGGESTION THAT NUCLEAR1 BE MONKEYED FOR A DAY FOR REVIVING THIS DAMN MEME AGAIN
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 05, 2010, 09:52:14 pm
VEHEMENT DISAGREEMENT.

AMUSEMENT AT SELFMONKEYING.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Blue Lion on April 05, 2010, 09:53:18 pm
SUGGESTION THAT NUCLEAR1 BE MONKEYED FOR A DAY FOR REVIVING THIS DAMN MEME AGAIN

(http://api.ning.com/files/rpb6F5BSXL0wO824vfk3LluUyCg9oGm9hNnY2J6ybJI_/Scruffy_Futurama.jp)
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Mongoose on April 05, 2010, 10:49:35 pm
IRRITATION THAT BLUE LION BEAT ME TO THE LINK.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 05, 2010, 10:56:00 pm
MEMETIC CONTAGION DETECTED, VENTING SECTION TO SPACE
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Kosh on April 05, 2010, 11:17:55 pm
Quote
He doesn't needs to be a brainwashed machine to be a rightist.
I think he sincerely believes what he thinks is the best for him and his country. He may be right or wrong, just like anyone else (and I have to admit he's a bit funny sometimes, like that depressive post in the last page), but the man defends his beliefs, and that is something to respect on him. Don't you think so?
[/quote

I don't think so, try watching some of the stuff coming out of Fox (I think you can stream it online), and then compare it to what liberator says. In many cases it isn't just that he's wrong, its that he has his own little fantasy world as the good general pointed out.

Quote
You may whine and complain about how morals are out of date and religion is the embodiment of stupidity.  But when religion and god played a larger role in peoples lives, you didn't have nearly the percentage of the population reproducing willy nilly.

Actually we did. Depending on how far back we want to look at, 100 years ago you'd be married when you were 20, by the time you were 30 you'd have at least 5 children. I'd say that's reproducing "willy nilly". Yeah, like goat herders thousands of years ago when the life expectancy was 30 know how to live.



Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: watsisname on April 06, 2010, 12:59:53 am
Perhaps it's worthy of mentioning that hundreds/thousands of years ago, excessive procreation was mostly beneficial, while in the current era it is mostly not.

YAAAY industrialization!
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 06, 2010, 01:29:18 am
Each couple needs to have at least 2 kids to replace themselves, then extras for the couples that don't have any or only one to maintain they're core cultural heritage.  Otherwise their native culture will be erased over time.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 06, 2010, 01:29:50 am
Each couple needs to have at least 2 kids to replace themselves, then extras for the couples that don't have any or only one to maintain they're core cultural heritage.  Otherwise their native culture will be erased over time.

No, no it won't.

Culture is not propagated genetically.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 06, 2010, 02:29:25 am
GB, I have no clue how you thought Liberator was talking about genetics, since children frequently grow up to have a similar culture to that of their parents due to similar environment and other influences.

For an example of what he is talking about, the Native Americans got overwhelmed and their cultures driven to the point of extinction simply because the European settlers outnumbered them.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 06, 2010, 02:34:54 am
A better example would be how Europe is getting run over by immigrant cultures from the middle east.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 06, 2010, 02:38:15 am
Quote
For an example of what he is talking about, the Native Americans got overwhelmed and their cultures driven to the point of extinction simply because the European settlers outnumbered them.

You don't know anything about European colonial history do you?

Because it wasn't sheer numbers that did the Native Americans in.  

A better example would be how Europe is getting run over by immigrant cultures from the middle east.

Stop, I'm just going to have you stop talking about that subject right there.

About 5% of France's population is North African. 
About 2% of Germany's population is Turkish.
About 10% of France is Muslim (compared to 88% Roman Catholic)
1.8% of the UK is Indian and 1.3% is Pakistani

This doesn't constitute "overrunning" in any sense of the term.  Stop making **** up.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 06, 2010, 02:56:08 am
Quote
For an example of what he is talking about, the Native Americans got overwhelmed and their cultures driven to the point of extinction simply because the European settlers outnumbered them.

You don't know anything about European colonial history do you?

Because it wasn't sheer numbers that did the Native Americans in.
I'm not talking about the early colonial era, I'm talking about what happened when we, the descendants of the European settlers, started kicking them off their land and shoved them onto reservations for them and their culture to wither and die.  Look who outnumbers who, and look who has a culture in danger of being overwhelmed.  Indian casinos certainly aren't part of their original culture.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Kosh on April 06, 2010, 04:57:13 am
Quote
For an example of what he is talking about, the Native Americans got overwhelmed and their cultures driven to the point of extinction simply because the European settlers outnumbered them.

You don't know anything about European colonial history do you?

Because it wasn't sheer numbers that did the Native Americans in.
I'm not talking about the early colonial era, I'm talking about what happened when we, the descendants of the European settlers, started kicking them off their land and shoved them onto reservations for them and their culture to wither and die.  Look who outnumbers who, and look who has a culture in danger of being overwhelmed.  Indian casinos certainly aren't part of their original culture.


The Chinese outnumber americans by a ratio of 6 to 1, yet americanization is proceeding at a good pace.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Liberator on April 06, 2010, 05:05:30 am
It's not "Americanization", it's the widespread development of their culture due to a massive industrialization movement ala America in the '50s.  It's just that instead of developing they're own version of McDonald's or whatever, they're simply using what already exists.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Kosh on April 06, 2010, 05:13:52 am
It isn't just that, there's also hollywood and the impact that's had.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: iamzack on April 06, 2010, 07:08:14 am
Americanization of mental illness! :D
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: General Battuta on April 06, 2010, 08:40:01 am
GB, I have no clue how you thought Liberator was talking about genetics, since children frequently grow up to have a similar culture to that of their parents due to similar environment and other influences.

For an example of what he is talking about, the Native Americans got overwhelmed and their cultures driven to the point of extinction simply because the European settlers outnumbered them.

What he (and you) are talking about is fear of immigrants, which is a nicely rationalized form of racism.

Children are influenced by the environment they grow up in. This is why the children of immigrants are English-speaking and (when given economic and educational opportunities) highly acculturated.

Immigrants acculturate. This is what happens. Their culture fuses with that of their new homeland and produces a synthesis.

This is what America is.
Title: Re: "Requiem for Detroit"
Post by: Blue Lion on April 06, 2010, 09:44:37 am
Quote
For an example of what he is talking about, the Native Americans got overwhelmed and their cultures driven to the point of extinction simply because the European settlers outnumbered them.

You don't know anything about European colonial history do you?

Because it wasn't sheer numbers that did the Native Americans in.
I'm not talking about the early colonial era, I'm talking about what happened when we, the descendants of the European settlers, started kicking them off their land and shoved them onto reservations for them and their culture to wither and die.  Look who outnumbers who, and look who has a culture in danger of being overwhelmed.  Indian casinos certainly aren't part of their original culture.

That IS the early colonial era. Native peoples were screwed basically almost as soon as we came ashore.

It is hard to put an exact figure on it since Native Americans didn't exactly fill out a census form of their own, but most historians agree that native tribes lost 60%-90% of their people from disease alone.

The Great Plains Indians did not lose their land and sit on reservations because we outnumbered them in the plains, we didn't.
At the time before whites showed up, North and South America had a native population that ran in the hundreds of millions, cities in the 10s of thousands.

We didn't need to kill them or out culture them numerically. By the time whites moved into an area in sufficient numbers to be a force as a culture, the damage was already done. The Plains Indians were not overwhelmed either, we chased them down with guns and forced them to sit in time out and then they got sick and died like all the rest.

The Plains Indians couldn't have functioned if we had a greater cultural impact on the land than they did.