Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: dragonsniper on April 03, 2010, 10:00:06 pm
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Alright, for Freespace Assault Force (link here (http://www.game-warden.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=93) if you don't know about it already,) the public's opinion on what game engine it will be made on would probably be a good idea. ;) So, here are the two engines that we are currently debating over. If you have any other suggestions though, feel free to comment. Also, if you'd like to help in any way, feel free to comment here, or here. (http://www.game-warden.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7891)
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Doom 3 engine would fit the hallfight atmosphere.
However, if this is ever going to get anywhere, it's probably going to be a Source mod.
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I don't have Crysis, and can't think of anything better than Source, so Source it is.
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Doom3 wouldn't be the best, although I agree for the hallfight thing, it would be great. As for Source, I think I should make it openly public that adding new weapons and models into the Source Engine is NOT easy. Models such as static props are, but weapons are not easy at all, as where they Crysis engine, it is a lot easier. It's for this reason, and the amazing rendering and graphical quality of Crysis that I bring this up.
Point given, maybe this will change opinions or idea's.
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You shouldn't have asked us for our opinions. :P
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I'd be an advocate for the Half-Life 2 engine as I've seen several examples of flight implemented in the past - I've never seen any such thing done for Crysis, though I do imagine it's possible.
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Crysis already has flight built in; there is a mission in the campaign where you escape from the island while flying a VTOL.
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Which was awful.
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As n00b as it sounds... I sort-of do not trust Source when it comes to vehicles (there was a mod that was cancelled because of something related to vehicles and multiplayer), but I don't know how good Crysis is at the same job (some ages-old instant-kill ramming problem or something which I don't know if it was fixed coming in to Warhead?), and I have no idea if newer Source engines already improved on the vehicle code since long ago. And then there's Steam. :sigh:
There's also UE3 which at least isn't a lag monster (it has that "it just works" feeling all over it) but... something... about first-person view weapon models on that engine that just looks... off... to me... regardless of mod... on standard UT3 I don't really care because of the fast-paced gameplay with audacious-looking guns bang bang boom dead that ignores reloading but on those "tactical shooter" (or similar) mods that implement reloading for assault rifles et cetra...
just plain weird. to me. and even if the gun normal was moved more to the screen centre i doubt it'd look any less weird, again, to me... :doubt:
a $0.02 random banter XD
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Speaking as a completely non-technical sort, I went with the engine (Source) that I know can actually achieve reasonable performance on my computer, as opposed to the one that's the Holy Grail of high-end custom-build wankery. :p
(Yes, I realize the engine isn't everything, but still.)
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Crysis has flight built in. Source is wonky with vehicles, from what I know.
I'd go CryEngine, I guess.
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Crysis. Really. I've seen amazing first-time maps done by people. The possibilities are endless in that engine, just like with Half Life 2's, except with better graphics and all :p And yeah, there are air vehicles in Crysis. Definetly go with CryEngine.
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As nice as Source is, stuff like MechWarrior Living Legends suggests CryEngine is a lot more flexible, powerful, and mod-friendly.
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CryEngine is beast. Performance problems are due to the insane graphics packed in, which don't have to be used. The ramming instant death thing, I don't know what that's referring to. I've never seen it. Unless you mean running into a rock wall at 60 mph, but then what do you THINK is supposed to happen? :P I don't know about source, never played anything using it.
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To be honest, I only picked Half-Life 2 because I was familiar with it, and with many mods for it.
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However, in terms of good engine, you shouldn't rule out the one used by Unreal Tournament III ( forgot what the engine itself was called :p ). It also has many great mods, with drastically different gameplay and all that, like a 'CnC Renegade' remake, or the 'Angels Fall First' mod that includes space combat as well as ground combat, and "manning" the capital ships.
Still, I'd go with CryEngine if I were you. Heck, I was looking into modding it myself even.
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Unreal Engine 3.
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Which was good.
Fixed.
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I saw somewhere that a space mod had been started (and dropped) for CryEngine2. It looked quite good. I imagine flight vehicles suck in Crysis only because movement variables for them are really low. I'm not sure how much you could tweak them without bugging physics though.
Crysis has the potential to handle something like hallfight quite nicely (see level "core"), but you'll need to build/find a lot of custom assets. Another thing is the easy implementation of multiple zones on the same map having gravity or not having gravity.
Obviously, performance of CryEngine2 is abysmal, and a lot of your map-making/modding time will be spent on optimization.
Edit: The mod isn't dead: http://www.moddb.com/mods/x32i
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Crysis has the potential to handle something like hallfight quite nicely (see level "core"), but you'll need to build/find a lot of custom assets. Another thing is the easy implementation of multiple zones on the same map having gravity or not having gravity.
I had fully intended on modeling most of the game's assests anyways.
Obviously, performance of CryEngine2 is abysmal, and a lot of your map-making/modding time will be spent on optimization.
Care to elaborate how the performance is abysmal? As for the map-making and modding, they are also obviously going to take a lot of time. Optimization on any engine for level designing is going to happen, and take a lot of time.
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Which was awful.
Fixed.
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That level wasn't the high point of the game, mostly because of the goddamn tornadoes, but that had more to do with the level design than the engine's flight dynamics.
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On the contrary, a lack of ability to control your aircraft and poor intuitive flight style was exactly why the goddamn tornados earned the epithet "goddamn".
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Those aren't problems with the engine, though, they're problems with the gameplay.
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Something freeware preferably, since my parents won't let me cough up money for an fps.
But, I understand that the hl2 engine is capable of craploads of stuff.
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The VTOL is going to be the natural starting point for any effort to implement aircraft, so it's flaws are going to effect any such effort. It may not be integral to the engine, but it doesn't have to be unless you want to build stuff from the ground up.
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I think you've got plenty of other mods with aircraft to work from on the CryEngine front.
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Something freeware preferably, since my parents won't let me cough up money for an fps.
But, I understand that the hl2 engine is capable of craploads of stuff.
hl2 is capable of craploads of stuff, but really only if your doing a mod with the weapons and vehicles that are already in it. As for the freeware thing, I looked at all the fps freeware engines out there, but decided that Crytech or Source would be the best. A half baked production isn't what I'm aiming for.
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Something freeware preferably, since my parents won't let me cough up money for an fps.
But, I understand that the hl2 engine is capable of craploads of stuff.
hl2 is capable of craploads of stuff, but really only if your doing a mod with the weapons and vehicles that are already in it. As for the freeware thing, I looked at all the fps freeware engines out there, but decided that Crytech or Source would be the best. A half baked production isn't what I'm aiming for.
By all means, dude. I'm only one person.
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They should be all be capable platforms as far as mods go, but Crysis and UT3 are of a different generation than HL2 and Doom 3. Those games are several years old now and look quite dated today.
I looked at all the fps freeware engines out there, but decided that Crytech or Source would be the best.
UE3 is actually free for non-commercial use. You can download the SDK and make a standalone game on it. Although you need UT3 or some other game built on it if you want to use existing models, textures and other assets.
I think UE3 would actually be a good fit for the interior style of the FS universe, more so than the other engines.
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I have tinckered with the U3 engine, and it's incredible, but very difficult. It's fan base is also extremely low, and there are little to no tutorials to get you started and going, whereas Crysis and Halflife 2 do have stronger fanbases. At the current moment, the U3 engine iirc won't allow you to implemet your own things, and your limited to what is in the Beta SDK. If the license prices go down (Currently $1500+ a computer :( ) then it would help a lot.
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Have you seen this (http://www.udk.com/)? I'm not sure what the free version's restrictions are, but several games that used to be UT3 mods have been turned into standalone freeware titles using this. Prometheus and The Ball are some examples.
UT3 itself has had limited popularity, but interestingly it has had a very active mod community, more than almost any other game from the last few years. The MSU contests were probably the main reason for this. The UE3 engine is also used in a lot of other games, and is by some distance the most common engine seen these days.
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Thanks for the link, but I already have the dev kit. An update may be useful though. Maybe I should look into it more, but it looked (and is) very complicated for level designing, with a very small fan base for tutorials. However, larger and more complicated usually means that it is more powerful, which I do not for one second doubt that it isn't.
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Obviously, performance of CryEngine2 is abysmal, and a lot of your map-making/modding time will be spent on optimization.
Care to elaborate how the performance is abysmal? As for the map-making and modding, they are also obviously going to take a lot of time. Optimization on any engine for level designing is going to happen, and take a lot of time.
Um, not sure about other rigs, but mine doesn't go above 100 fps looking at sky and an endless flat plane of grass texture. Stock levels are 20-35 fps on 1024x600, medium. The engine just demands stronger hardware. If that's not a primary concern, then by all means, use CE2. My impression is that it's one of the easier level creators to use once you have assets made.
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it's not designed for pointlessly large framerates. i get 25-30 on 1680x1050, nearly full settings, and NOT looking at the sky. that is a really bad way to benchmark performance.
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it's not designed for pointlessly large framerates. i get 25-30 on 1680x1050, nearly full settings, and NOT looking at the sky. that is a really bad way to benchmark performance.
I prefer my framerate at above 30, thank you. :doubt:
<-- Been killed way to many times due to lag spikes
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it's not designed for pointlessly large framerates. i get 25-30 on 1680x1050, nearly full settings, and NOT looking at the sky. that is a really bad way to benchmark performance.
I prefer my framerate at above 30, thank you. :doubt:
<-- Been killed way to many times due to lag spikes
It's not the framerate that matters as much as the steadiness of the frame rate. Crysis has excellent motion blur which, for some reason, lets it look quite consistent even in the 20-30 range.
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*thinks about that for a second*
... ok. Not really sure what that means, but it still makes sense.
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If your framerate is steady, that is more important than it being high (unless you fall below a critical threshold where even a steady framerate is unplayable.)
Crysis is set up in such a way that comparatively low framerates still appear smooth and feel playable.
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Well, let's see... If the UT3 engine is free for non-commercail usage, I'd say go with that. Of course, I'm not aware of all the restrictions, but it wouldn't make sense for them to release an SDK with no means of somehow implementing your own features... if that's some of what's being said here.
Thus said, I'd remove my vote for HL2 and select other if I could... unless convinced otherwise. Furthermore, using the Unreal engine would mean that you could make the entire package available for download with no dependencies - again, that's only if my understanding is correct on this matter.
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If your framerate is steady, that is more important than it being high (unless you fall below a critical threshold where even a steady framerate is unplayable.)
Crysis is set up in such a way that comparatively low framerates still appear smooth and feel playable.
True, but the full screen motion blur doesn't do anything conducive if you need to do mouse-twitch sniping. Also remember that due to Crysis's beautiful particles systems, most fight scenes will eat another 5-50% out of your FPS.
Anyways, it's pretty common knowledge that Crysis strains most people's computers. I think it's more productive to talk about other limitations at this point, like vehicle physics and such.
As an aside, I'm wondering how hard it is to mod using the Source engine. I hear it's pretty horrible, but I have no first hand experience with it.
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You could just lower the settings to medium or "low" instead of high to improve the framerate. It's not a huge "OH my gosh!" moment if you do. Atleast, it isn't for me. :p
I'm wondering how hard it is to mod using the Source engine. I hear it's pretty horrible, but I have no first hand experience with it.
The Source level designer is rather easy, but can be very complicated and incredible, however, adding custom models is a nightmare. After looking at the Crysis engine, it to looks rather easy to work with for level designing, but once again it can be very complicated and powerful. However, adding models appears to be easier than using the Source SDK.
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If your framerate is steady, that is more important than it being high (unless you fall below a critical threshold where even a steady framerate is unplayable.)
Crysis is set up in such a way that comparatively low framerates still appear smooth and feel playable.
True, but the full screen motion blur doesn't do anything conducive if you need to do mouse-twitch sniping. Also remember that due to Crysis's beautiful particles systems, most fight scenes will eat another 5-50% out of your FPS.
Anyways, it's pretty common knowledge that Crysis strains most people's computers. I think it's more productive to talk about other limitations at this point, like vehicle physics and such.
As an aside, I'm wondering how hard it is to mod using the Source engine. I hear it's pretty horrible, but I have no first hand experience with it.
our point is, crysis strains systems because the graphics are so intense, not the engine is bad.
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Uh, how about UE3...Crysis is terrible for indoor environments, which is what I imagine any FS2 FPS would mostly be.
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I voted other because it's pretty crappy if you have to buy a game just in order to play a free game that uses that game's engine (called a mod).
And even worse if it's the source engine. Get steam, then hl2, then play your mod. Idk if crysis would be less bull**** or not (with crysis do you just buy the game, install, and then play?).
Sorry i'm looking at this as an which engine is less bull**** for the user when the mod is finished experience.
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You shouldn't have asked us for our opinions. :P
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mod is short for MODIFICATION. i.e., NOT a seperate, free game. buying the game that the mod is a modification of is completely reasonable to me. in my line of thinking, if i don't want the game itself, the mod isn't likely to interest me either.
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I'd suggest having a look at UDK (Unreal Engine), simply because you'll be able to release the game as a standalone install rather than a mod, which will always limit your playerbase to some extent, otherwise. I don't think, Source is a good choice, as the engine is pretty old now and after two years of mod development it certainly won't look much better than it does now. At least it has a far bigger community than Crysis simply because there are so many Source games out there all giving you access to Source-based mods. I'm not a big fan of Crysis, both gameplaywise and regarding its bad performance and I believe it's also much better suited for outdoor shooters.
Anyway, don't base your decision on a user vote... have a look at the available engines, maybe do some prototyping and evaluate for yourself, what is easier to work with and what gives you the best results for whatever you're going for.
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Uh, how about UE3...Crysis is terrible for indoor environments, which is what I imagine any FS2 FPS would mostly be.
Oh, don't go getting the idea that all the battles will be indoors. ;) As for the indoor ones, we'll find a way around it if we use the CryTech Engine.
You shouldn't have asked us for our opinions. :P
:pAnd even worse if it's the source engine. Get steam, then hl2, then play your mod. Idk if crysis would be less bull**** or not (with crysis do you just buy the game, install, and then play?).
Basically. IIRC, you load the game, click the mod tab, make sure the mod is in the "mod" folder, and then start playing. Most games don't make it much more difficult than that.
our point is, crysis strains systems because the graphics are so intense, not the engine is bad.
Makes sense. My point of lowering the graphical settings still stands though. :)
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What's wrong with indoor missions in Crysis/on CryTech?
Also, see how the aircraft handle :p (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o0pcKC3lPg)
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CE2 wasn't designed with too much focus on indoor environments. At least to my eyes, the lighting inside many buildings suffers from a bit of blandness as a result. Also, no stock assets (which are random shacks and are useless anyways) have any global lighting baked into textures like a lot of the other games do. Most of the subtle lighting is done by SSAO, which doesn't compare to properly baked textures.
Regardless, with proper assets work and good use of placed lights, an indoor map could look just as good. Again, look at the level "core" (or screenshots of it) to see what kinds of things are possible.
@Katastrophe: For the most part, you're right. Rendering 1 million tris in your average scene will hurt most rigs. However, lots of people have said that the game shaders are bloated and unoptimized. I have no idea if that's actually true though.
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why not unreal, it has the best licensing options, and no one would need to buy a game.
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mod is short for MODIFICATION. i.e., NOT a seperate, free game. buying the game that the mod is a modification of is completely reasonable to me. in my line of thinking, if i don't want the game itself, the mod isn't likely to interest me either.
I'm sure you know via aparso's comment why i was using mod synonymously with free game. And there's also the fact that some mods are so complete that they really are stand alone free games, but in which if you want to play it, it's just a mod. There's some mods that were just mods, such as urban terror, the q3 engine went opensource so urban terror was truly able to be a stand alone game today because of that. And to the contrary, there's plenty of interesting mods for games even if the actual game for the mod doesn't interest the person.
I'm not in here suggesting an opensource route, although if you find a game engine that is opensource, then good for you (you can make a stand alone game instead of just a mod). I only popped in here to show the choosing of two evils is better than one. The drm associated with hl2 via steam is a big pile of steamy ****, is crysis any different? Basically what i'm getting at (which i already got at), would using the crysis engine mean less bull**** for the person who just wants to play a mod?
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/me holds S-99's sentiments as well.
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i didn't mean that to sound "i'm right, you're wrong", sorry. i was offering my viewpoint as to why i'm not bothered paying for a game to make use of it's engine. and yes, crysis is MUCH better from a DRM standpoint. all it has is the (securom?) cd-check stuff. i even have mine cracked, i hate changing out disks all the time. none of that online bull****.
as for indoors in crysis, i completely disagree. did you guys not play the Core level? (i think that's the right name). warhead also had extremely impressive mine shafts
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why not unreal, it has the best licensing options, and no one would need to buy a game.
Licensing = $1500+ for one computer, for full access. :p So not really the best option, unless you are referring to the SDK, which is obviously free. :)
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Crysis has limited DRM compared to Steam (mere disk check), but Crysis: Warhead and Crysis Wars both use the evil SecuROM that has limited activations, which I find to be worse than Steam since Steam has no limits on installations.
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What do you mean limited activations for securom with crysis? The only scenario in my head that i could put together is that you can install the game a limited number of times on your own computer. And then what? By the game again when you want to play again? Crack it?
I'm sure the scenario in my head right now is not how it actually is. The reason i'm asking for some clarification.
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Basically, it works like this:
1. You install game
2. Game phones home to activation server and activates itself
This reduces the number of activations you can make with that disc, in theory this allows you have the game installed on several PCs at the same time.
If the publisher is feeling generous, they'll allow you to "un-register" an installed copy when you uninstall it, thereby freeing up one activation.
These activations should be linked to the PC, so that you can install, uninstall and reinstall it as often as you want, but again, this depends on how dickish the publisher is feeling at the moment.
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if you call up customer support and tell them you ran out of activiations because of reinstalls, most of the time they will give you more. i've seen plenty of people say they've done that, and none so far that tried and didn't get it.
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Like The E said, this system really depends on how dickish the publisher is feeling, and EA was feeling pretty dickish at that time. What I don't like is that despite their newer games like ME2 and DA:O not having this system (an implicit acknowledgment that it has failed), they haven't gone back and patched it out from ME, Crysis: Warhead, Spore, and RA3.
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again, until someone directly confirms that they tried to get more activations and didn't, it's just an annoyance, not a travesty. honestly i think they would have to, for fear of legal implications.
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All those games come with an EULA which basically states you'll get whatever EA lets you have and nothing else.
Granted, EULA's are possibly unenforceable, but I'm not sure if that's ever come up in court.
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EULA isn't going to help them if someone challenges them with selling limited activations rather than the product itself with no indication of such. you don't see the EULA until AFTER you've bought it.
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Granted, EULA's are possibly unenforceable, but I'm not sure if that's ever come up in court.
It has, and they are.
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Voting is now closed. I'd like to thank those that took the time (all of 10 seconds to decide :p) to vote and whatnot. If you have any other opinions, feel free to continue to comment. Just try to keep the discussion on track.
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You know, not being able to remove/change a submitted vote was a problem I had with this thread...
Unfortunately that doesn't do much now... :rolleyes:
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Unreal Engine 3 has gone free (see UDK). (My own issue with UE3 would be that even the best UE3 mods seem to be deserted by players... , but with the Engine going free now and UnrealTournament 3 no longer being a requirement, maybe that will change)
There is talk about CryEngine 2 (i.e. the Engine behind Crysis) becoming free as well. Also worth mentioning is that Crysis is the basis of what i consider to be the most incredible mod of the decade. To see what's possible, check this out: http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/ ... amongst other things, one of the maps is a large rotating asteroid, with lakes that freeze over/melt depending on whether the side you are on currently faces the sun.
Might want to take a look at this again. If DRM played a huge part in this vote then it has become nill and void, because there isn't any DRM in either engine after they go free ;) With Source Engine you still need to own a source game and install it as a mod and as good as Source is, it really is showing its age by now... with free UDK and hopefully soon to be free Cryengine 2 you would get a more up to date engine and the game/mod could be a standalone download too.
I also don't see Crysis system requirements as a huge issue... back in the day i played it on a AMD dual core with an Nvidia 8800 GTS 640mb in 1280x1024 with all high settings in DX9 just fine and it looked just amazing.
Sure, if you want ALL the eye-candy and set it to "highest" in DX10 and want to play in 1920x1200 HD too then yeah, you need beefier hardware... but the engine as such scales quite well and still looks amazing on even a 500-600 $ PC if its built at least somewhat well.
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You know, not being able to remove/change a submitted vote was a problem I had with this thread...
Unfortunately that doesn't do much now... :rolleyes:
Just post the engine change that you wanted. It's basically the same. :p
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In that case, I'd go with the Unreal 3 engine. Being free, this will allow more people to use your development. It will also potentially allow more people to get involved with your project without having to make an expenditure.