Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: Snail on April 07, 2010, 06:03:50 pm
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ITT we discuss whether or not Lt. Polpolion, a junior GTVA officer in training, has a sound grasp of strategic theory in context of the Sol theater.
At the war games, Lt. Polpolion says "Holding ships in reserve is a wise tactic, even if my force is outnumbered at the outset." Discuss.
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I say. When the heck did you get over 15k posts?
Also this is too open a topic. Focus of force is my favourite tactic.
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Lt. Polpolion says "Holding ships in reserve is a wise tactic, even if my force is outnumbered at the outset."
Smart move.
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Does Lt. Polpolion know that Admiral Wolf stole his nametag?
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EVERYONE stole his nametag! Srsly, he stopped caring by the time the Galatea got blown up.
At the wargames, Lt. Polpolion says, "I will commit my Bellerophon and Chimera corvettes only once enemy warships have been committed. Attacking installations allows me to force this ideal situation." Discuss.
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Well, a good flanking manuver can turn the tide of battle, even if the numbers are against you. Not sure how well that tranlsates to 3D space combat though.
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At the wargames, Lt. Polpolion says, "I will commit my Bellerophon and Chimera corvettes only once enemy warships have been committed. Attacking installations allows me to force this ideal situation." Discuss.
so i herd u want 2 b a shiven.
seams 2 werk well enough 4 dem so y not?
Though to be honest, I don't think attacking installations (with fighters/bombers) forces the enemy to commit warships, just more fighters. With the effectiveness of fighters in the FSverse, the best answer to a fighter/bomber attack is more fighters, and the best answer to a warship attack is more bombers.
Not sure how you can really get your opponent to commit his warships if they know they're just gonna be fodder for your flying beam cannons. I guess you'd have to commit a really dedicated anti-fighter cruiser or something that would swat down fighters by the droves (something like an Aeolus with ULTRA AAAs on all its turrets) to force the enemy to really have to send in a warship to deal with it.
Well, a good flanking manuver can turn the tide of battle, even if the numbers are against you. Not sure how well that tranlsates to 3D space combat though.
3D means that you can flank from above and below as well as from the sides, that's all.
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Worth noting that with Fury AI an Aeolus can eat strike craft at an alarming rate, and larger warships can defend themselves very well against bomber strikes.
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Plus, it just takes a small cruiser with a SGreen/what have you to threaten an installation. Sending a cruiser is generally going to either bring in bombers (which can get shot down pretty easily) or escalate with warships. When the warships arrive, jump the Corvettes in.
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Plus, it just takes a small cruiser with a SGreen/what have you to threaten an installation. Sending a cruiser is generally going to either bring in bombers (which can get shot down pretty easily) or escalate with warships. When the warships arrive, jump the Corvettes in.
SGreens don't threaten anything except for freighters and (Fenris cruisers).
Not with that retarded 45 second reload of theirs, which gives ample time for fighters to just stilleto/trebuchet/maxim (or whatever their UEF equivalent is) it out of existence.
Anything with competent fighter escort should be able to take the turret down before it can fire more than two shots or so...(otherwise, oooooh boy they're screwed against Lilith cruisers)
Worth noting that with Fury AI an Aeolus can eat strike craft at an alarming rate, and larger warships can defend themselves very well against bomber strikes.
The Aeolus I don't doubt, though don't stuff like the Hecate have way too many blind spots where bombers can just sit? Especially if you stop the turrets-shooting-through-the-ship glitch with check-hull. Bombers have free reign approaching the Hecate from behind (actually, that extends to the Raynor and Titan too).
I will admit that the AI often isn't "smart" enough to do that and will just beeline in and promptly get torn up...
But deploying your big ships first kinda goes against "Holding ships in reserve is a wise tactic, even if my force is outnumbered at the outset."
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Plus, it just takes a small cruiser with a SGreen/what have you to threaten an installation. Sending a cruiser is generally going to either bring in bombers (which can get shot down pretty easily) or escalate with warships. When the warships arrive, jump the Corvettes in.
This is dependent on the installation not having similar guns of its own, which is something we can't really swear to in the context of WIH.
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War games eh?
Lt. Polpolion says "Holding ships in reserve is a wise tactic, even if my force is outnumbered at the outset."
Always designate some forces as reinforcements, but do not hesitate to use them too.
If your initial battle lines start to crumble, a concentrated deployment of the reinforcements can turn the tide of the battle. But if you delay the reinforcements too long, the enemy will have a chance to destroy your main deployments at leisure, gaining a foothold in both occupied area and morale, and you'll be unlikely to recover the engagement.
This is why a good reinforcement should consist of units with rapid response time and firepower. Heavy fighter wings or gunships are ideal for this role, although fast capital ships with good weaponry definitely make for good heavy metal flanking units, should you have a surplus of cap ships.
Meanwhile the main deployment units should have good staying power so that they aren't immediately swept away, which gives you as a fleet commander some grace time to make sound judgement as to when and where you should deploy your reinforcement units.
Where your units start to lose, deploy the reinforcements or part of them. Conversely, where your enemies' battle lines start to show signs of wavering, concentrate your efforts there. If you manage to destroy or rout units at one point of your enemy's deployment, it will disrupt their plans, reduce their ability to support each other, and also wreak havoc on their morale (which is sadly not simulated in FS2_Open...).
Also, as far as war games go, remember this: If you do not know what to do, flank them. If you do not know where to flank, flank from the left side. Almost uniformly, any firm decision will turn out better than indecisiveness.
At the wargames, Lt. Polpolion says, "I will commit my Bellerophon and Chimera corvettes only once enemy warships have been committed. Attacking installations allows me to force this ideal situation." Discuss.
Choosing the battlefield will give you an immediate advantage, as you are in control of the engagement and can select to either withdraw or continue the engagement at your will. Therefore offensive strategy is favourable to defensive. If your enemy has fixed locations they must defend, they do offer an excellent way to force your enemy to commit into an engagement under your rules, or forfeit their assets at that location.
Of course, this only truly works if your supply lines and forces are sufficient to defeat the defenses that can be mustered to protect the installations. If you can not mount large enough assault to provide decisive victory, the enemy installations can just as easily turn into death traps for your fleet as you continue to hammer them, yet they do not fall. In this case it becomes a war of attrition, something that is undesireable for both attacker and defender; war of attrition is usually devastating to unit morale and economy on both sides. It has sometimes been utilized by ruthless commanders who simply have the leisure of vastly outnumbering the enemy - however, even they usually find it very inefficient to simply use massed attacks against capable enemies using carefully formulated strategies and positions.
Conversely, even if your forces are outnumbered, you should still not settle on a defensive warfare, but actively harass the attacker by striking at their logistics, and if possible separating portions of the hostile forces from their main forces, then wearing the isolated units out by continuous attacks. (Again, sadly, fatigue is not modelled in FS2_Open...)
However, this is hard in FreeSpace warfare due to jump capabilities - the best you can hope is to lure the enemy into a system through a jump node, then blockade the node so that no supplies can be delivered to the isolated group, but this requires that you have at least two systems at your control and that your enemy can be hoodwinked into taking the bait.
If this is not possible, then your best choice when being outnumbered would be to use hit and run attacks against more or less isolated parts of the enemy fleet and evacuate as many of your fixed installations as possible, so that you do not need to necessarily stretch your resources to hold the installations. Loss of an installation can be a blow to industrial capacity and to morale, but getting the capable people out of them will leave you an option to abandon them, should it prove necessary, ie. if the enemy is trying to force you to meet them at a battle field of their choosing and the value of the installation is outweighed by the price associated in keeping it.
Of course, this could potentially enable you to manufacture traps of great cunning - by masquerading almost abandoned installations as fully functional, you could perhaps lure the enemy troops where you want them, while still retaining the option to disengage and abandon the installation if the battle does not turn into your favour.
...And from that day forward, any time a bunch of animals are together in one place, it's called a ZOO!
Unless it's a farm.
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In an universe where you can be "there" in a matter of seconds ("there" would be...anywere in the same system) by just jumping away, I would say keeping ships on reserve is a must, not a tactic.
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Since you could run away just as fast or nearly so, perhaps not. :P
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This discussion, especially Herra Tohtori's mention of laying out traps, made me wonder how much the GTVA and UEF are trying to infiltrate the enemy and spy on them.
The UEF will probably have big problems getting anyone into the GTVA terretory, but the GTVA is already inside sol, which might enable them to get a spy onto UEF soil/ships/installations. Then there would also be the matter of the ships that defected at the end of AoA. Maybe someone on board is only playing along, while really supplying the GTVA with information.
THen there is also the matter of people from the UEF selling themselfs out. Not that unlikely a possibility if you live in a faction that seems to be losing the war.
Wtih information sources like those a trap you lay out could easily turn out to become a trap you stepped into.
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The UEF will probably have big problems getting anyone into the GTVA terretory, but the GTVA is already inside sol, which might enable them to get a spy onto UEF soil/ships/installations.
As much as I hate to admit it (being pro-GTVA and all), there is still the possibility of defections post-14th Battlegroup. I mean, every damn family in the GTVA would be able to trace their roots to a place on Earth somewhere, it just seems morally objectionable to invade Sol, unless you're mildly versed in military thought (thankfully there are a lot of those blokes walking around, seeing as the Tevs have been through two wars previously).
The whole matter of defections is largely a double edged sword, in my opinion, with it siding a *little* more with the UEF. Ultimately, they're fighting for their homes, and no matter how much of a flowery culture you come from, you're going to fight like a mother****er before some dickhead takes your system. As opposed to the fact that, well, the UEF is losing the war, and while they might be able to keep the Tevs out of Earth for a while, ultimately cannot stand up to Alliance toe-to-toe (therefore, the possibility of UEF insiders arises, as you pointed out).
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Unless Command makes some incredibly bad tactical mistake that results in the loss of the Solace or mission-priority vessels; such as the Orestes.
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As much as I hate to admit it (being pro-GTVA and all), there is still the possibility of defections post-14th Battlegroup. I mean, every damn family in the GTVA would be able to trace their roots to a place on Earth somewhere, it just seems morally objectionable to invade Sol, unless you're mildly versed in military thought (thankfully there are a lot of those blokes walking around, seeing as the Tevs have been through two wars previously).
Well, the GTVA propaganda machine could just paint the UEF as some big bad government which has taken over Sol.
They're not fighting against their homes but crazy/evil people that took over it.
We're liberating our home planet from the grips of a creepy religious dictatorship run by a bunch of self-appointed old men!
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What the heck are you people talking about?
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What the heck are you people talking about?
Have you played Blue Planet?
Do you know what forum you're in?
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What the heck are you people talking about?
Pizza.
Quotes of Lt. Polpolion.
And Military Tactics and strategy.
In real life and Sci-fi.
And their impact on Morale and Enemy tactics and strategy.
But mostly Pizza.
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What the heck are you people talking about?
Your mom.
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Someone say pizza?
(http://www.tastelog.com/food/tastelog_com-food-42-1.jpg)
EDIT: Sorry Spardason, we're trying to keep it family-friendly here. -- Darius
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I find this whole situation that arises at the end of AoA a very, very sticky one. I can see where Admiral Bei and the other defectors are coming from, after all, it does contravene the GTVA's supposed morals and ideologies, and to wage war on a human society that is pacifistic/pastoral in the extreme does seem a little sick.
However, I can also understand the GTVA's concern, the UEF seem utterly unaware of the dangers posed by the threat of a possible Shivan return, and are likely to attempt to extend their pacifistic regime to the rest of the Terran arm of the GTVA, which could have dire consequences, since Humanity's cradle would be welcomed with open arms as the leader of the Terran people if it was accepted in a gesture of peace. The only way to ensure the military might and thus the protection extended by the GTVA is to demonise and subjugate the Earthborn, removing their hippy peace and love agenda.
I can understand the player character defecting to follow his father, since this was not the reunion he or most of the 14th battlegroup expected, but I wonder if they were all being a tad premature and not thinking through the cold, hard realities of the situation.
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The only way to ensure the military might and thus the protection extended by the GTVA is to demonise and subjugate the Earthborn, removing their hippy peace and love agenda.
Amen.
But rather than forcibly harden them the **** up, in my opinion, the only way this is going to end is in some kind of coexistence between the two, with both sides seeing eye-to-eye. Forcibly pulling the flowers out of their hair and trying to knock some sense into them 'GTVA-style' is going to be about as effective as 'Nam.
The GTVA needs to
- Accept the UEF is not a threat (or eliminate what was a threat from them) , and try and make-do with its ideology
- Convince the Elders that protection against the Shivans is a mighty big priority, and that their hippy bull**** can stay the **** at home when the Shivans come out to play. Resulting in the two coexisting and working together in the event of a third incursion.
The UEF needs to
- Accept the GTVA's way of doing things, and work together for the better of the two.
- Understand the Shivans from the Alliance's point of view, and agree to help out to the best of their ability in terms of a Shivan invasion. (since well, that's one of the key points here.)
- Stop their state sponsored terrorism.
Both sides need to have some kind of free information exchange, so we won't have black ops events going on every two seconds between the two sides.
Some of the points are fundamentally flawed, but eh.
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The GTVA needs to
- Accept the UEF is not a threat (or eliminate what was a threat from them) , and try and make-do with its ideology
The problem from the GTVA's point of view is that the Ubuntu ideology is extremely appealing to the people of their practically bankrupt government. The GTVA can't risk its populace being converted to Ubuntu, cuz that would leave everyone defenseless (again, from their point of view). The solution to the problem was (apparently) war, to paint the Ubuntu ideology as a primitive ideal that can't work in the real world, and then crush it. The GTVA and UEF can't coexist.
- Convince the Elders that protection against the Shivans is a mighty big priority, and that their hippy bull**** can stay the **** at home when the Shivans come out to play. Resulting in the two coexisting and working together in the event of a third incursion.
The Elders are special and all that. In their divine wisdom they'd probably refuse to allow their populace to become subjects of a militaristic regime that clearly does not work (the NTF, Capella, colonial strife and basically the crisis the entire Terran species is experiencing all point to the GTVA being a fundamentally flawed regime).
The Elders, if they are communicating with a higher power (Vishnans?) probably won't come down to the GTVA's level of thinking, since they're enlightened and all that. Likewise, the GTVA won't see things from the Elders' point of view because they're not likely to believe the inane rantings of a group of old farts any time soon.
The UEF needs to
- Accept the GTVA's way of doing things, and work together for the better of the two.
As I said above, the Elders simply can't do this. The Ubuntu ideology is a polar opposite to the GTVA's hard-power militaristic regime. From the UEF's point of view, the GTVA, while large and equipped with a massive military, is really struggling to keep itself together and is, like the GTA before it, on the verge of internal collapse. It's only managed to maintain its integrity by crushing colonial rebellions through the use of force.
The UEF on the other hand doesn't have this problem, barring the fringe Kupier factions that aren't really much of a threat anyway. The Elders have been able to keep their population under control simply because their regime works.
- Understand the Shivans from the Alliance's point of view, and agree to help out to the best of their ability in terms of a Shivan invasion. (since well, that's one of the key points here.)
The Elders are enlightened. They probably understand the Shivans better than the GTVA do. The GTVA don't know **** about the Shivans apart from the fact that they're invincible and can't be stopped. There's no reason why the Elders should bend over to this way of thinking.
- Stop their state sponsored terrorism.
Yeah, the UEF isn't without fault in this area either.
Both sides need to have some kind of free information exchange, so we won't have black ops events going on every two seconds between the two sides.
An information exchange would help, yeah. I think it'd allow both sides to better understand each other. However, I doubt it'd solve the problem.
Some of the points are fundamentally flawed, but eh.
Yeah. The most fundamentally flawed point is the entire GTVA's reasoning.
In Capella, the GTVA saw the true power of the Shivans. What we've learned from Capella is that the Shivans can't be stopped with military force. And yet, the GTVA continues to try and build up its military to fight something that clearly can't be fought on equal terms.
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Some of the points are fundamentally flawed, but eh.
Yeah. The most fundamentally flawed point is the entire GTVA's reasoning.
In Capella, the GTVA saw the true power of the Shivans. What we've learned from Capella is that the Shivans can't be stopped with military force. And yet, the GTVA continues to try and build up its military to fight something that clearly can't be fought on equal terms.
Right, so you suggest to just roll over and die?
That's a ****ing plan right there.
In the GTVA's position, continuing military buildup is the only sensible thing to do. Even if you can't win outright, you want to at least put up a fight so you can evacuate your people (on sleeper ships, etc).
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Right, so you suggest to just roll over and die?
That's a ****ing plan right there.
:rolleyes:
Did I say that? I don't recall.
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In Capella, the GTVA saw the true power of the Shivans. What we've learned from Capella is that the Shivans can't be stopped with military force. And yet, the GTVA continues to try and build up its military to fight something that clearly can't be fought on equal terms.
We know Shivans die when shot, but we can't talk to them, so we can't reason with them, corrupt them with our culture, or make them dependant on imports from our factories. The military option is currently the only one on the table, and it's known that the Shivans can at least be pushed back temporarily and cut off via the deployment of meson warheads en masse. What do you think they're going to do?
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Node collapses, sleeper ships, I dunno. But it's pretty damn obvious fighting them is not the right option. Sure you can slow them down but that's about it.
Also, the Elders apparently are communicating with some higher power, who will probably turn out to be the Vishnans or something. So that could be a solution there. Not really a viable solution to put the survival of your species on a border-line deity, but the Elders might have some kind of plan in case of a Shivan invasion.
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Node collapses, sleeper ships, I dunno. But it's pretty damn obvious fighting them is not the right option. Sure you can slow them down but that's about it.
Also, the Elders apparently are communicating with some higher power, who will probably turn out to be the Vishnans or something. So that could be a solution there. Not really a viable solution to put the survival of your species on a border-line deity, but the Elders might have some kind of plan in case of a Shivan invasion.
How are you going to collapse those nodes or protect those sleeper ships without a military?
Also, how much can you trust this vague "higher power"? You might if you were actually talking to them, but just trusting some old guys babbling about communicating with "higher beings" doesn't seem very wise. As for this plan which they may or may not have, there's no way of knowing its effectiveness until well, you at least know what it is. The GTVA should try to learn about it, at the very least, though.
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Eh, I guess you guys are right.
Go GTVA pwn those Buntu assholes.
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Right, so you suggest to just roll over and die?
That's a ****ing plan right there.
In the GTVA's position, continuing military buildup is the only sensible thing to do. Even if you can't win outright, you want to at least put up a fight so you can evacuate your people (on sleeper ships, etc).
Bosch felt he had a better way. And arguably, it worked, at least on an extremely small scale.
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Elders communicating with "higher beings"?
UEF commiting terrorism?
Anyone care to give a source for those two, since I don't remember ever reading anything like that, despite having read all the information on the BP homepage and all entries in the Tech Database.
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Anyone care to give a source for those two, since I don't remember ever reading anything like that, despite having read all the information on the BP homepage and all entries in the Tech Database.
Well then you'd better read it again. :P
Okay, I decided not to be a jack ass and just copypaste the quotes here:
For the UEF’s part, the arrival of the 14th was not unexpected. The Elders had greeted the sighting of GTVA probes with open arms, and in spite of a Fedayeen (the paramilitary black ops unit reporting directly to the Elders, often - and arguably correctly - labeled 'state sponsored terrorists' by the GTVA) report suggesting that the probes were stuffed with sophisticated ELINT gear, prepared no military contingencies for the GTVA’s arrival.
The Vasudans, however, stubbornly maintained that prophetic abilities amongst their species (including those once claimed by members of the Hammer of Light) were in fact the result of communion with powerful alien beings (The term ‘supernatural’ is never used in Vasudan mythology; the Vasudan view is that anything which occurs is natural and scientific). Ironically, this attitude towards ‘higher powers’ is not dissimilar to that adopted by some factions of the Ubuntu Party Elders.
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this attitude towards ‘higher powers’ is not dissimilar to that adopted by some factions of the Ubuntu Party Elders.
For me that doesn't sound at all like the Eldar are actually communicating with any higher beings, just that they share the same beliefes about them with the Vasudans.
I certainly wouldn't call the ability to communicate an "attitude".
And we know nothing at all about the activities of the UEF black ops, just a little piece of GTVA propaganda. To say they have to stop that "terrorism" when we don't even know what they are really doing, is going very far....
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If the HoL are any indication, being able to communicate with higher powers doesn't help much.
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The fluff states that while the GTVA is the one calling the Fedayeen "state-sponsored terrorists", it also says that the label could be argued to be correct.
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this attitude towards ‘higher powers’ is not dissimilar to that adopted by some factions of the Ubuntu Party Elders.
For me that doesn't sound at all like the Eldar are actually communicating with any higher beings, just that they share the same beliefes about them with the Vasudans.
I certainly wouldn't call the ability to communicate an "attitude".
Given the mystical elements of the Blue Planet storyline. I'd basically say it's a given.
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Wow, I go to work and my comment sparks a huge debate.
I can't really add much to my fellow GTVA supporters, they've said it far more eloquently than I could.
Oh, I would point out that the success of Bosch's ETAK project is... questionable at best. Certainly he caused something, but god (Volition) only knows what it actually was.
Aye, perhaps it is the Vishnans influencing the Ubuntu, but that, in my opinion, is even more reason to purge that government. Humanity should be free to choose and if needs be carve it's own path, not forced by some wishy-washy mystical xenos.
And if the Vishnans are psychic beings (And all the proof suggests this) then that's even less reason for them to be allowed to get away with influencing us. Where do you demark the line from 'guidance' to outright control?
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this attitude towards ‘higher powers’ is not dissimilar to that adopted by some factions of the Ubuntu Party Elders.
For me that doesn't sound at all like the Eldar are actually communicating with any higher beings, just that they share the same beliefes about them with the Vasudans.
I certainly wouldn't call the ability to communicate an "attitude".
Given the mystical elements of the Blue Planet storyline. I'd basically say it's a given.
*cough cough*
Aye, perhaps it is the Vishnans influencing the Ubuntu, but that, in my opinion, is even more reason to purge that government. Humanity should be free to choose and if needs be carve it's own path, not forced by some wishy-washy mystical xenos.
Have you checked out the techroom entries in BP? You may find something to your liking.
And if the Vishnans are psychic beings (And all the proof suggests this) then that's even less reason for them to be allowed to get away with influencing us. Where do you demark the line from 'guidance' to outright control?
The techroom may also shed some light on the 'psychic beings' issue.
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Given the mystical elements of the Blue Planet storyline. I'd basically say it's a given.
And considering how AoA managed to surprise me several times during my first playthrough, I'd say nothing in WiH is a given, except the high quality.
I still think we don't have enough information available to jump to conclusions. On some parts we hardly have enough to make an educated guess, so saying something is like that for sure seems pretty premature for me.
Besides, if there is contact between the Elders and the Vishnans, I think you might mistake the cause and the effect here. You seem to think that the UEF is like it is, because of the Vishnans influence. I think it is more likely that the Vishnans are interested in the UEF, because it's the way it is, and became that way by itself.
Besides, if they were in such close communications with Humans before, how could they learn so much (including the full meaning of time to us) from Samuel Bei? Shouldn't they have picked up all those things form the Elders, if they were in their heads before?
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Wow, I go to work and my comment sparks a huge debate.
Well it's a good healthy debate. :yes:
Oh, I would point out that the success of Bosch's ETAK project is... questionable at best. Certainly he caused something, but god (Volition) only knows what it actually was.
ETAK might not be effective, but as the prose section tells us, those with the natural ability to sense Shivan activity (sensitives) would probably be able to communicate to a much greater degree. The Vishnans were clearly able to communicate to the Terrans through people like Samuel Bei. It's a distinct possibility that the Shivans have the same ability, but choose not to use it.
Aye, perhaps it is the Vishnans influencing the Ubuntu, but that, in my opinion, is even more reason to purge that government. Humanity should be free to choose and if needs be carve it's own path, not forced by some wishy-washy mystical xenos.
You're forgetting the fact that as far as we know, the only force capable of opposing the Shivans on equal terms are the Vishnans. Wouldn't it be wise to seek the protection of this race, instead of shooting everything that we don't understand?
And if the Vishnans are psychic beings (And all the proof suggests this) then that's even less reason for them to be allowed to get away with influencing us. Where do you demark the line from 'guidance' to outright control?
Yeah, it's true that while AoA paints the Vishnans as being a benevolent race, we can't forget the possibility that they too can be destructive... After all, they have in the past shown no will to help the Terrans and Vasudans, allowing both of their planets to be exterminated (in the alternate universe) and allowing the Shivans to take billions of lives. It's possible the Vishnans have some ulterior motive, or are bound by the rules of the shattered triumvirate between the Shivans, Vishnans and Brahmans, or something like that. I hope this all gets explained in BP3....
And considering how AoA managed to surprise me several times during my first playthrough, I'd say nothing in WiH is a given, except the high quality.
Yeah, the Elders could just be a bunch of mad old men on acid, but I really doubt that.
I still think we don't have enough information available to jump to conclusions. On some parts we hardly have enough to make an educated guess, so saying something is like that for sure seems pretty premature for me.
The BP team are dropping hints. Some may well be red-herrings, but I really do think a lot of them are true.
Besides, if there is contact between the Elders and the Vishnans, I think you might mistake the cause and the effect here. You seem to think that the UEF is like it is, because of the Vishnans influence. I think it is more likely that the Vishnans are interested in the UEF, because it's the way it is, and became that way by itself.
Worth reading:
Neither Khonsu II nor Aken Bosch (who first replicated this natural communication ability in artificial form via Project ETAK) were aware that other sensitives had played, or would soon play, a critical role in Terran-Vasudan history. Two already mentioned here were Samuel Bei and his father. Another, lesser known, was the pilot who destroyed the Lucifer, who received not only a sense of the purpose of the Shivans, but in fact later reported full-length audiovisual hallucinations of an Ancient narrating the rise and fall of their empire at the hands of the Shivans. Although this pilot was trapped in Sol, and so never came into contact with Project Nagari, he was debriefed extensively. These reported visions were discovered to align perfectly with the myths and legends that the pilot’s Vasudan comrades (also trapped after the node collapse) remembered about the ancient race that had once visited Vasuda Prime.
It is not entirely possible to confirm the notion that this pilot’s visions served as one of the focal points of the Ubuntu Party’s rise to power.
Besides, if they were in such close communications with Humans before, how could they learn so much (including the full meaning of time to us) from Samuel Bei? Shouldn't they have picked up all those things form the Elders, if they were in their heads before?
Iunno.
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I still think we don't have enough information available to jump to conclusions. On some parts we hardly have enough to make an educated guess, so saying something is like that for sure seems pretty premature for me.
The BP team are dropping hints. Some may well be red-herrings, but I really do think a lot of them are true.
If you lurk on #bp, you will get more and better spoilers.
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And the occasional slip-up from one of the members copy pasting things into the wrong channels. :nervous:
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Yeah, it's true that while AoA paints the Vishnans as being a benevolent race, we can't forget the possibility that they too can be destructive... After all, they have in the past shown no will to help the Terrans and Vasudans, allowing both of their planets to be exterminated (in the alternate universe) and allowing the Shivans to take billions of lives. It's possible the Vishnans have some ulterior motive, or are bound by the rules of the shattered triumvirate between the Shivans, Vishnans and Brahmans, or something like that. I hope this all gets explained in BP3....
I don't know if we have hard evidence that the Vishnans entirely knew what the Shivans had done in that alternate universe before the events of AoA unfolded. It seemed to me as though they were focused on Samuel specifically, and it was only after he learned what had happened that the Vishnans took direct action to work against the Shivans and protect the GTVA fleet. I'll agree that the Vishnans probably aren't as cut-and-dry as we've seen so far, but I'm not sure that they essentially stepped aside and let the Shivans destroy Earth 2. I could be completely wrong, though.
(Also, I love the story conceit of having the Ancient monologues play an in-universe role. Very meta. :p)
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I always thought that the Ancient recordings were translated data-logs recovered from the Altair dig site. Guess I was wrong.
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I always thought that the Ancient recordings were translated data-logs recovered from the Altair dig site. Guess I was wrong.
Well Blue Planet's theory is but one interpretation.
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I always thought that the Ancient recordings were translated data-logs recovered from the Altair dig site. Guess I was wrong.
Well the in-universe explanation is only one interpretation canonically.
What? It's not an interpretation if those recordings are recovered data logs - its a fact.
If it isn't then its Ravenholme's interpretation, not the in-universe one.
:wtf:
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I always thought that the Ancient recordings were translated data-logs recovered from the Altair dig site. Guess I was wrong.
Well the in-universe explanation is only one interpretation canonically.
What? It's not an interpretation if those recordings are recovered data logs - its a fact.
If it isn't then its Ravenholme's interpretation, not the in-universe one.
:wtf:
I think I need to replay FS1, to find out. I'm sure that it was just data logs recovered from the Altair dig (They only started after that) played against a backdrop of the stars and planets.
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I think I need to replay FS1, to find out. I'm sure that it was just data logs recovered from the Altair dig (They only started after that) played against a backdrop of the stars and planets.
No, they started well before the Altair discovery, before the player has even heard of "the Ancients." It's never stated explicitly that they represent data logs, or anything like that; they're just atmospheric interludes meant to establish the game's backstory.
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I think I need to replay FS1, to find out. I'm sure that it was just data logs recovered from the Altair dig (They only started after that) played against a backdrop of the stars and planets.
No, they started well before the Altair discovery, before the player has even heard of "the Ancients." It's never stated explicitly that they represent data logs, or anything like that; they're just atmospheric interludes meant to establish the game's backstory.
Ah, well, then I guess it's free for the Blue Planet creators to play with. But I always assumed that Volition never intended a mystic path for the series, so that if they had to be explained it would be translated logs.
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I think I need to replay FS1, to find out. I'm sure that it was just data logs recovered from the Altair dig (They only started after that) played against a backdrop of the stars and planets.
No, they started well before the Altair discovery, before the player has even heard of "the Ancients." It's never stated explicitly that they represent data logs, or anything like that; they're just atmospheric interludes meant to establish the game's backstory.
Ah, well, then I guess it's free for the Blue Planet creators to play with. But I always assumed that Volition never intended a mystic path for the series, so that if they had to be explained it would be translated logs.
Who says there is any kind of mysticism involved in the Blue Planet explanation either?
Read the techroom.
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Or search for General Battutas comments. He mentioned.... quite a few times by now that everything in BP is certifiable by science, even if it looks like mysticism at first glace.
To throw a little quote from one of the proses:
Some Humans beliefe that sufficiently sophisticated technology is indistuinguishable from magic and thus is magic. For Vasudans magic was always sufficiently sophisticated technology to begin with.
There might be some differences in wording, since I wrote it out of my memory, but you get the essence of those two sentences.
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Or search for General Battutas comments. He mentioned.... quite a few times by now that everything in BP is certifiable by science, even if it looks like mysticism at first glace.
To throw a little quote from one of the proses:
Some Humans beliefe that sufficiently sophisticated technology is indistuinguishable from magic and thus is magic. For Vasudans magic was always sufficiently sophisticated technology to begin with.
There might be some differences in wording, since I wrote it out of my memory, but you get the essence of those two sentences.
Well, that still doesn't override my comments about mind control. Where do you demark the line between guidance and outright control? And can you actually conscience guidance in the first place, knowing how malleable humans will react.
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What? It's not an interpretation if those recordings are recovered data logs - its a fact.
Rly?
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What? It's not an interpretation if those recordings are recovered data logs - its a fact.
Rly?
He was confused by the wording, he thought you were stating that my interpretation was in fact, well, fact, but that you were also saying that it was an interpretation.
It's just one of those breakdowns in communication that happen all too often on the internets.
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Eh, semantics. I've edited the post.
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What? It's not an interpretation if those recordings are recovered data logs - its a fact.
Rly?
I meant it this way: if it was canonicalthat the ancient cutscenes were data logs (ie. someone from :v: said that), then it wouldn't be an interpretation.
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But um, I don't think :v: did say that.
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Hence the "if" - it was a hypothetical.
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Well, the cutscenes were all named "Ancients #", and what they say certainly makes the most sense if it's interpreted as being from the POV of the Ancients... The fact that you begin seeing the cutscenes before you discover the Ancients is IMO not relevant... consider the Bosch Monologues from FS2 by comparison... the GTVA never would have heard any of that until well after you had heard and watched all of them...
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Lt. Polpolion says,
The heavy bomber is obsolete. The strike bomber is dying. A more effective, efficient means of attacking well-defended targets must be devised.
Discuss.
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Captain Dilmah says,
Leftenant, I like your forward thinking.
But as to the statement, well. To devastate a well defended target autonomously (if this is the case, I personally support a combined arms method), the craft must be able to perform a number of roles, or their side needs to have means to deal with them.
1. Suppression of enemy fighter and bomber attacks
2. Carry heavy weapons to do the damage. Perhaps, instead of reinventing the bomber, we can reinvent its warheads? Perhaps we could utilize SSMs more often?
3. Have the ability to punch hard enough through the target's screen, and live to tell the tale.
The way I see it, we'll either be producing frigates, or different types of bombers, rather than reinventing the wheel.
Perhaps, we should reinvent the bomber. What are the flaws of the current bombers?
1. They are slow, and lack maneuverability.
2. They lack effective anti-fighter armament.
So how do we fix these things?
1. We sacrifice payload for speed, and consider giving it directional thrusters.
and
2. We mount flak cannons instead of laser turrets. I don't know how feasible this may be. :\
Regardless. I propose that we focus our energies upon manufacturing light bombers, with the aforementioned attributes. These bombers will have the speed to potentially outrun, or match their interceptors. The flak cannons will serve as a deterrent at the least, and may protect the bomber from close range attacks.
With the ability to rearm in the field of engagement, we can make numerous assaults against the target with the same ships, repeatedly punching through the defensive screen to deliver a handful of warheads, disengaging, and going in again.
The alternative to this, is to build a heavy, heavy, bomber, the way I see it. Perhaps we sacrifice afterburners and maneuverability for ridiculously heavy armour plating and defensive armament comparable to small cruisers? Deployed two at a time at most, these craft would need a decent fighter escort, but they would pack a real punch, assuming we can fit several cyclops banks into it.
Or, I may have completely misunderstood what Battuta was on about. If so, feel free to ignore. :P
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I concur. If you're going to stick with bombers, they either need to get a lot lighter or a lot heavier.
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Agreed.
With advances in fighter and capital-ship technology, bombers have an increasingly difficult time delivering their payload.
Seems like subspace missiles are a fairly good option - while each warhead may cost more, you don't run the risk of losing all the warheads before they're even launched like with bombers. In a sense, subspace torpedoes represent one extreme of bomber design (the light side) : you sacrifice loadout (one warhead) in favour of speed. The bomber has become so light all it is is the bomb itself.
The other extreme would basically be a small torpedo cruiser or missile bus.
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2. Carry heavy weapons to do the damage. Perhaps, instead of reinventing the bomber, we can reinvent its warheads? Perhaps we could utilize SSMs more often?
Dumbfire racks of heavy antimatter warheads with a high-boost engine. The main vunerablity of bomber designs is in the acquistion phase, as they must obtain and maintain target lock for unreasonably long periods of time to successfully launch all their ordnance, and it requires a massive number to launch at once to overwhelm defenses.
A simple rapid-launch cell of six or so warheads promises hits despite defenses in most cases.
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Yeah, that's a good idea. Although the fuse might be a problem (I assume correct detonation of the warhead is one of the reasons aspect lock is acquired). As long as pilots are aware of the effective range of the warhead, I think this'll be a good strategy.
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2. Carry heavy weapons to do the damage. Perhaps, instead of reinventing the bomber, we can reinvent its warheads? Perhaps we could utilize SSMs more often?
Dumbfire racks of heavy antimatter warheads with a high-boost engine. The main vunerablity of bomber designs is in the acquistion phase...
Well...this assertion is true for players, but in a way it's disproven by the AI, who don't need to lock at all and can even perform off-boresight bomb launches.
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Lt. Polpolion says:
Dividing your forces into units smaller than two ships is not recommendable. Lack of mutual support will soon result in your forces being divided into units smaller than one ship.
This holds true for all sorts of units under your command. No ship should ever be forced to operate alone. Two ships operating as a pair can do much more than two ships operating individually.
Avoid solo operations at all costs - if you are a fighter or gunship pilot, stick close enough to your wingmen that you can support them and they can support you. If you command a capital ship, cover the weak spots of other capital ships flying close to you. Position your ship so that other ships in formation can cover your weak spots.
Conversely, attempts to tactically isolate enemy ships should be greatly encouraged.
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Ah, good points. That second last point especially is a good one, and one I've been toying with recently as part of the hnoon/bbaiting remix.
The Deimos corvette is a very good example of a ship that's able to provide very good mutual support to other ships of its class if they're sortied together and in proper formation.
Conversely, attempts to tactically isolate enemy ships should be greatly encouraged.
I believe our revolutionized strike bomber would be very good for this, once the hole in screen is punched, repeated attacks by the bombers on the vessel's weak points may be able to force it out of formation. Much how Luftwaffe pilots made head on attacks at American daylight bomber formations (where their firepower was the least concentrated) and picked off the stragglers with extreme prejudice.
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Well...this assertion is true for players, but in a way it's disproven by the AI, who don't need to lock at all and can even perform off-boresight bomb launches.
I did suggest rapid-fire too. :P
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Well...this assertion is true for players, but in a way it's disproven by the AI, who don't need to lock at all and can even perform off-boresight bomb launches.
I did suggest rapid-fire too. :P
uberbomber glitch :shaking:
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uberbomber glitch :shaking:
The Ursa shoals laugh at your uberbomber!
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The uberbomber glitch works as well on Ursas as anything else.
The problem with Ursas is they're deathtraps.
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Yeah they're basically target practice for any fighter (or hell, even other bombers).
Not very good target practice at that, since they can't even try to avoid your fire properly.
:(
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Yeah they're basically target practice for any fighter (or hell, even other bombers).
Not very good target practice at that, since they can't even try to avoid your fire properly.
:(
Play Pre-Emptive NTF Strike (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Pre-Emptive_NTF_Strike_%28Multiplayer_Mission%29). You will never look upon an Ursa the same way again. :shaking:
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The uberbomber glitch works as well on Ursas as anything else.
The problem with Ursas is they're deathtraps.
Nah, there was another spawn-ship glitch Kara exploited for Grizzly Bearbaiting to create huge swarms of them.
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The uberbomber glitch works as well on Ursas as anything else.
The problem with Ursas is they're deathtraps.
Nah, there was another spawn-ship glitch Kara exploited for Grizzly Bearbaiting to create huge swarms of them.
Oh, I remember that. That was awesome.
Yeah they're basically target practice for any fighter (or hell, even other bombers).
Not very good target practice at that, since they can't even try to avoid your fire properly.
:(
Play Pre-Emptive NTF Strike (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Pre-Emptive_NTF_Strike_%28Multiplayer_Mission%29). You will never look upon an Ursa the same way again. :shaking:
Yeah but...no Slammers.
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Node collapses, sleeper ships, I dunno. But it's pretty damn obvious fighting them is not the right option. Sure you can slow them down but that's about it.
Part of military strategy is understanding that there sometimes is no right option. When all options inevitably lead to defeat, the option you choose will be the one that delays total defeat for the longest period of time. Any sensible commander-in-chief would fight the Shivans to the last man, even if he knew the GTVA was doomed, just to hang on a little longer, as happened in most historical wars of annihilation. When the enemy offers you no terms and no quarter, what else are you going to do?
The Shivans are coming. They do not respond to diplomatic overtures. They do not have any cultural weakness. They do not take prisoners. You are going to die. Would you like to die now, or die later? Also, remember that anything the GTVA is technologically capable of is well within the reach of the Shivans. The Shivans could probably just cruise on for years and years to attack human strongholds at sublight speed if it came down to it. Time dilation would make it easier for them than you'd think.
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Dividing your forces into units smaller than two ships is not recommendable. Lack of mutual support will soon result in your forces being divided into units smaller than one ship.
:lol:
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I agree with Woolie. Although, no doubt they would be looking for some means to save the civilian population and a more effective way to fight the Shivans.
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Victory goes to the side which makes the fewest mistakes. The objective is therefore to last long enough that the Shivans do something irrecoverably stupid.
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Victory goes to the side which makes the fewest mistakes. The objective is therefore to last long enough that the Shivans do something irrecoverably stupid.
...like?
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wait wait you set the sathanas fleet to EXplode? i told you i wanted it to IMplode
screeeeeeeeeeeeee
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...like?
Pick one: deployment, execution, communication.
There are always errors to make. It's a sign of a poor imagination you can't see them. :P
Admittedly, it's much more likely it'll be a cumulative buildup.
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...I don't see how even any of that would be able to compromise the 80-Sath fleet.
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...I don't see how even any of that would be able to compromise the 80-Sath fleet.
Then I'll give you the classic example of blowing your numerical superiority to hell: Midway. By doling out its carrier and surface forces in penny packets to multiple operations in the same space of time, Combined Fleet failed to maintain superiority at the point of fire despite having vastly superior forces.
The 80-Sath fleet can make the same kind of mistakes and let itself be picked off in twos and threes by attempting to accomplish too much against a broad, and essentially irrelevant, GTVA front.
Again, lack of imagination. There are plenty of ways to screw up.
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Victory goes to the side which makes the fewest mistakes. The objective is therefore to last long enough that the Shivans do something irrecoverably stupid.
...and hope that you are still able to capitalize on it.
Doesn't matter if they self destruct 79 Sathanas juggernauts if all you have left is a single Triton :(
But yes, its the only sane thing to do.
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W.r.t. bomber obsolescence: Subspace missiles! Or... the tech description for the Vishnans' bombs suggests they may work by subspace-jumping an even bigger uber-bomb from the mothership into the target's hull, using the bomb you fire as a bomber as the endpoint. A cool variation... I'm not sure what the advantages of one over the other would be.
Also, some of the UEF gunships seem to basically fit the "revised-bomber" role.
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Hmm, 'revised bomber' yes. From what I'm allowed to divulge, in their current state, I don't think they'd be fit for strike bomber duties. Think of them as the P-47s of the UEF.