Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: cloneof on April 15, 2010, 10:08:40 am
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Hi guys!
I lone European guy just wondering around... playing Freespace and The Babylon Project, while looking around in the distance at the cd's of the X-Wing and X-Wing Alliance.
You see... I have no joystick, I'm forced to play with a keyboard :mad:.
Never had the interest to purchase one, but as of late the amount games I own that would just simply work better, or work overall, with a joystick has made me to come to the conclusion that I must get one. The old one is no longer with for service as the modern computer's no longer support it's input wires.
So, could anyone suggest me a fairly good joystick?
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Keyboard's actually not that bad once you're used to using it. The current #1 player on the FS2 multiplayer ladder plays using the keyboard if I recall correctly :) But as for joysticks, if you're willing to spend a bit of money then I'd suggest something like the CH Combatstick. It isn't cheap, but it's solid engineering and in my opinion with a pleasent button layout - Which it would have to have, really, as the layout is almost identical to that of a real F16 stick :p They also make an advanced version called the Fighterstick but that's probably not worth the extra cash it unless you plan to be using it very often.
If you're not quite looking for something in the CH price range, as they know their sticks are good and tend to charge accordingly, you might want to look at a mid-range Saitek stick. In general, I'd say to avoid logitech as I've heard they have a tendency to break if you accidentally cough in their general direction, although coming from me that's just a rumor as I've never actually owned one.
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Keyboard FTW!
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Saitek Cyborg Evo is my current stick, although it's grown a little too stiff for my liking after about 2-3 years of use. Would recommend it purely because of the amount of buttons on the thing, however. CH products are supposedly very high quality however.
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I've heard the same about CH products - a little pricey, but worth it.
I personally have a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro, which is a very nice, economical stick. The control layout is quite excellent on the stick itself and does well for flying fighters... or FreeSpace craft, for example. Also, the software that comes with the stick lets you adjust it to about any preference you may have, making it quite flexible in its usage. I wonder if I could turn it into a 3D mouse for AC3D...
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I have an old Saitek ST-200 with four buttons and 3 axis that works just fine.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411V52QDSNL._SL210_.jpg)
It shouldn't cost too much, the only problems are that the base is a bit too light and that the USB cable can be a bit short for someone.
For space combat simulators should be good.
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im currently trying to hack an interface for an old 3d pro plus (same shape as the precision pro but without a usb mode). supposidly its supposed to blink of 3 of the buttons to create a signal packet. after looking at the signaling i realize how impressive the thing was. x and y axes had a 10 bit resolution, i think 8 or 9 bits for the throttle but only 7 for the twist handle. nowadays only high end sticks in the $300-$400 range advertise 10 bit resolution. so far my attempts to read it with an arduino have failed, i think the signal level is 3.3 instead of 5v. arduino makes serial joysticks very easy to make and all you really got to do is get the ppjoy ioctrl example code to write an interface proggie.
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freespace and xwing alliance rock with a forcefeedback stick
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I do have to say that for several games a joystick/mouse was really needed over the keyboard, and I think X-Wing was one of them.
Really, the keyboard control for pitch/yaw was pretty terrible, and the only way to get the fighter to be flung around properly was to use the mouse. The fire button was also on the mouse, so there was no real way you could get around using the mouse regardless.
However, I've had other sims where using the mouse was just a terrible idea. The Hornet flight simulators were a prime example - the mouse was just way too sensitive to use as a flight controller.
That said, my favorite means of flight control would certainly be the joystick, but only when the sim can properly take advantage of using the said stick. X-Plane is a good example, whereas something like FS falls in the middle - the current setup only allows so much of an advantage to be had from using a stick and the keyboard/mouse will certainly be needed from time to time.
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whereas something like FS falls in the middle - the current setup only allows so much of an advantage to be had from using a stick and the keyboard/mouse will certainly be needed from time to time.
If by 'advantage' you mean 'disadvantage', then yes!
Keyboard/mouse is way more precise and flexible. It's just a bit less immersive.
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Battuta, is the glass half full or half empty?
:p
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EMPTY
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To an Optimist, the glass is half full.
To a Pessimist, the glass is half empty.
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
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When I first started playing FS, it was FS2:Colossus, basically the first chapter of FS2 (just before the first SOC loop), which came with my Logitech Force 3D Extreme (at least, I think that's what the stick was called). It was a good stick, but the Force Feedback produced quite a lot of heat which, after less than a month of use, would cause it to fail after about 10 minutes of use. I used to take my time during briefing and mission loading so the stick could cool off. I even would hold it in the wash of a nearby fan to try to cool it faster. It would fail by first over-correcting the centering force, then it would start cutting out the FF for a couple of seconds at a time, before finally the FF would cut out altogether... which also meant that there was no centering force. Also, the deadzone was quite difficult to set properly. I recall that Logitech replaced my stick 3 times. The only reason that they didn't replace it a 4th time was because my last stick I managed to nurse-maid for quite a while, beyond the manufacturer's replacement period. One of the failures was so bad that when the FF died, it took the directional control with it, causing it to jam the detection sensor into a corner.
I had a couple of cheaper sticks for a while... one of which ended its life while I was playing Rogue Squadron 3D. I was making tight turns with a snow-speeder when the entire stick broke off from the base... though the cord remained attached. I managed to finish the mission by moving the stub of plastic where it had connected with my left thumb, while I controlled the buttons on the stick in my right. I had another stick for a while that had a throttle slider on the base, but then I saw an add for a X52 for $99.99, and managed to get a Future Shop to price match it.
There are a few things I don't like about the X52, the biggest of which is its "floaty" nature. There's very little resistance to stick movement, so its hard to find center and stick movements are quite loose. I've heard of people who have managed to graft bits of cardboard into the main spring, which had some dampening effect. The X52 Pro was supposed to have overcome that problem. The new X-65F (http://www.saitekusa.com/prod/x65f.htm) is supposed to have pressure-sensitivity ONLY for stick control, and some people aren't exactly sold on THAT idea.
Another thing that I wasn't thrilled about was the lack of any kind of slide inhibitors. Some of my previous sticks had suction cups on the bottom, and since my Logitech was a single piece, I had been able to hold it in place my other hand, but with the X52, I had more than once shoved one of the two pieces off my lap pad during violent maneuvers. Also, the data cable between the stick and throttle was proprietary, resembling a PS/2 plug, and was both loose and was positioned in a way that it could get bumped easily and possibly be damaged. I would have preferred for them to simply have a daisy-chain USB cable going between the stick and throttle. Not only would it then be more secure, but it would mean that if the cable became damaged, you only had to replace the cable with any old double-ended USB cable, rather than have to send your entire stick back for servicing or replacement. Thankfully that hasn't happened to me... yet. Finally, despite its flaky nature, I do miss the Force Feedback of my Logitech... when it worked, so I would have liked to have FF in the X52. Being experienced with the heat problems, an active cooling system would have been the way to go, and of course a secondary power supply (other than the USB) would have been in order.
Despite all this, as I have said in another thread, I haven't played FS or indeed any stick-requiring game in well over 2 years, and my X52 is still in its box from when I moved apartments about 2 years ago, so its not like I'm running it into the ground, but if I ever do get back into FS, I'll see what kind of durability this thing's got.
Later!
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I believe it was the Logitech Wingman Force 3D, which as I recall was a good joystick, only FS2:Collosus crashed all the time when you used it. It was fine when I used a keyboard. :ick:
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I believe it was the Logitech Wingman Force 3D, which as I recall was a good joystick, only FS2:Collosus crashed all the time when you used it. It was fine when I used a keyboard. :ick:
I love the joystick (still have it and use it, 10 years later), it just has to calibrated every time I turn the computer on or it sends me spinning in a random direction until I fix it. Never had the crash problem.
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i first flew FS with a saitek cyborg 3D gold. PERFECT tension just about, and i rather liked the twist-axis over the rocker for FS. it made for more fluid manevering IMO. back in the days of PXO i made more than one person smash themselves on the gany as they tried to chase my uly through it :) it did have some centering issues though. i had to turn the dead zone up a little further than i would have liked to get rid of drift.
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Keyboard/mouse is way more precise and flexible. It's just a bit less immersive.
Like Hell it is. I tried using a gamepad once and found it less immersive because I was so pissed off with how slippery my ship handled. I prefer absolute control of my craft with the keyboard. Simple, crude, effective.
To my knowledge, QuantumDelta use the keyboard most of the time, switching only to the mouse for precision aiming. I do the same.
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i can't imagine trying to fly with the keyboard. having an axis is a necessity for me for any kind of flight. the only time i don't use the joystic is for some extreme precision maxim sniping at long range, where i'll use the mouse if i'm having trouble lining it up with the stick.
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Keyboard/mouse is way more precise and flexible. It's just a bit less immersive.
Like Hell it is. I tried using a gamepad once and found it less immersive because I was so pissed off with how slippery my ship handled. I prefer absolute control of my craft with the keyboard. Simple, crude, effective.
To my knowledge, QuantumDelta use the keyboard most of the time, switching only to the mouse for precision aiming. I do the same.
I once tried a gamepad too when i lent the game to a friend when I was in high school (he didn't have a joystick) and it was terrible.
Gamepads and old school space sim don't mix up.
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Keyboard/mouse is way more precise and flexible. It's just a bit less immersive.
Like Hell it is. I tried using a gamepad once and found it less immersive because I was so pissed off with how slippery my ship handled. I prefer absolute control of my craft with the keyboard. Simple, crude, effective.
To my knowledge, QuantumDelta use the keyboard most of the time, switching only to the mouse for precision aiming. I do the same.
Before I had a stick, this is also exactly what I did. I must say, however, that neither just the mouse or the keyboard are completely satisfying for flight control. The mouse is oddly coded for FS, and using the numpad (goodness help you if you don't have one...) is really touchy for super-agile fighters. The stick has the unfortunate condition that getting the dead-zone out and maximizing your resonsiveness (which would be ideal) also degrades control to a degree - it might be ok if FS had an autopilot (so you could disable stick response when it was on)... Perhaps it would be different with Saitek's X-65. Now, if you know an FS fan with $400 to blow...
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Perhaps it would be different with Saitek's X-65. Now, if you know an FS fan with $400 to blow...
If my wife and I win the lottery this coming Friday, maybe. :cool:
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I have always played FS, Descent and other flying games with a keyboard only. These games have a limited turning speed unlike normal FPSs, which makes a mouse clunky to use for anything but precision aiming.
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When you say "limited turning speed", CP, are you talking about sensitivity? :confused:
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the turn speed is limited by the maneuverability of the fighter. i.e., flicking the mouse faster won't make it turn faster.
which i found out is actually NOT the case in descent. increasing sensitivity increases turn rate.
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Yeah, the mouse input schemes in the Descent games try to achieve a middle ground between responsiveness and not altering the gameplay too much. It's still nowhere near as fast and sensitive as standard FPSs though, and you end up having to pick up the mouse all the time when turning.
There is an alternative mouse scheme, the kind used in Freelancer, which gets around this issue and works somewhat better.
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i use stick in descent also. i used pure keyboard in d1 a LOOOOOOOONNNNNNNGG time ago before i had a joystick. i think i was like 7 at the time. that wasn't so bad, but there weren't nearly as many controls as with freespace. and i didn't even know about sliding.
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I find descent more similar to a classic FPS, in fact i played it with keyboard and mouse after changing the functions of some keys.
I tried a Joystick at first but controlling the ship was a bit unconfortable.
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i played decent probably 10 years before any other fps on PC, so i didn't really have any basis of using mouse. the joystick IS a tad awkward, but i couldn't do mouse with the extra axes in descent. you can only use 2 on the mouse, and trying to do the extra bank and up/down slide on the keyboard is just too busy.
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I tried the mouselook option in Descent 3 once. The turn rate was instantaneous, and I understood why mouselooking is usually banned.
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Descent was the first FPS I played and I have always used a keyboard only in it. I was still using a keyboard only for standard FPSs up until about 2000, since I was so used to it by then. I only switched to mouse/keyboard when I started playing UT regularly and realized that keyboard aiming was a significant handicap. :p
I tried the mouselook option in Descent 3 once. The turn rate was instantaneous, and I understood why mouselooking is usually banned.
That option does screw up the gameplay, but I think D3 had to include it to compete with other FPSs at the time. The Doom clones at the time of D1 and D2 were keyboard based, but when D3 came out mouselooking had become the norm in FPSs.
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Perhaps it would be different with Saitek's X-65. Now, if you know an FS fan with $400 to blow...
If my wife and I win the lottery this coming Friday, maybe. :cool:
If I won the lottery I'd have a set of 8-12 Tesla II pods within a week and have paid someone to get FSO running on them by the end of the summer.
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im currently trying to hack an interface for an old 3d pro plus (same shape as the precision pro but without a usb mode). supposidly its supposed to blink of 3 of the buttons to create a signal packet. after looking at the signaling i realize how impressive the thing was. x and y axes had a 10 bit resolution, i think 8 or 9 bits for the throttle but only 7 for the twist handle. nowadays only high end sticks in the $300-$400 range advertise 10 bit resolution. so far my attempts to read it with an arduino have failed, i think the signal level is 3.3 instead of 5v. arduino makes serial joysticks very easy to make and all you really got to do is get the ppjoy ioctrl example code to write an interface proggie.
Hey Nuke, did you know about these;
http://www.descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?t=7090&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=360&sid=8a552579932f7ae616b11b13fb3fb76d
http://descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?t=12217&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=330&sid=41b9b658fa32955704b3cf7baacf6815
(If this is useful, please make me one! ;) :nervous: I can't source the damned parts! :( )
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You can still order one from one of the guys on that forum. I was this close to making my order when I fixed my Precision Pro.
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yea ive seen those, but its a project that found its way to the bottom of the bin. its a real nostalgia piece, so its a shame to throw it away. but id rather make it work on my own. i know enough about micro controllers to read the signaling off of the stick and convert it to a useable format.
seems theres some new info there. might be useful.
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You can still order one from one of the guys on that forum. I was this close to making my order when I fixed my Precision Pro.
I don't think you can; KoolBear was going to do another run (I'm still on the list! :lol: ) but he has mysteriously disappeared and Grendel hasn't got the time to organize everything.
He's left all the instructions there for people to DIY but there aren't any 'pre-made' ones left AFAIK :(
However, I didn't realise there was a Mk3 one; My main problem was sourcing a MegaEM and programmer, but using the Teensy should be a lot easier since they will sell you one direct; I think I might have a go at that :D
I have all the other gubbins (Breadboard, caps etc.), just need the Teensy and a 15D... (And probably a new soldering iron tip... it's bad when the tip's all black and there's white powdery crap crystallized around the end right? :lol: )
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Contact Sickone (http://www.descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?t=16813). He was the one making the new run.
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Gah! I don't know how I missed that!! :ick:
You rock! :D *gives chief a manly and totally non-gay hug*
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Me neither, it's the very first post in the forum :)
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im gonna try porting some the source code to arduino. i already have a pretty good arduino->ppjoy joystick interface. it wont get the same baud rate as the teensy but it should still be good enough. i just have to read through the source to understand how to initialize the electronics on the joystick, and then to read the signals it produces, convert it then send it over the serial port. the teesny is probably cheaper, but i kinda wanted to use hardware i already have and software ive already written to make it work. then again i kinda like teensy, its small, has hardware usb, and you can program it with the arduino ide.
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Good luck with that, would love to see how that turns out.
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Woot! I has 3D Pro USB converter and it are ossom! \o/
Only downside is it doesn't work in Win98 because the stick uses negative numbers for top and left instead of 0,0 so I STILL can't play MechWarrior 3, but since it uses a Teensy I'm hoping it can be reprogrammed...
I wonder if I can find the source code...
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How do you have a Win98 box without a gameport? Get a Sound Blaster on ebay!
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or at a garage sale, or a dumpster for that matter.
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You can still order one from one of the guys on that forum. I was this close to making my order when I fixed my Precision Pro.
The only true bro in this thread.
Precision 2 here.
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I have a Precision 2 as well, but the static buildup issues on mine make it virtually unusable. It's only good for about 10 minutes and then has to be unplugged for an hour or more.
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Joystick > Keyboard > Mouse.
However, in terms of ease to use..
Mouse > Keyboard > Joystick.
The joystick only becomes king once you use full-sense no deadzone, and Prec Pro's/etc are the only line that REALLY satisfies being able to handle that.
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they were also 10 bit when most controllers nowadays are 8, you only get 10 bit from some of the expensive high end sticks you can get nowadays, even my ch stuff is only 8 bit. it kinda sucks because any $5 microcontroller has a complete bank of 10 bit adc lines. its sad to see the prices on joysticks bloated so much over what it costs to build them. what i have is a 3d pro plus, it has the same case as the presicion pro 1 but does not have onboard usb. would be useful for lan parties if i could get it working. i can only assume it uses the same initialization routines and packet encoding as the original 3d pro. im not sure if its even compatable with the adapter they sell. if it is then all i have to do is put some time into studying the source, then i could read the signal with an arduino.
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The first sticks named Precision Pro still lacked the USB chip too, it was only later Precision Pros that came with the USB dongle and built in USB support. I believe the one for sale on the DescentBB works with the PPro and the 3D Pro Plus, it even works with the FF Pro but just lacks the Force Feedback support.
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How do you have a Win98 box without a gameport? Get a Sound Blaster on ebay!
'eh? I have a gameport... how else do you think I have been using this joystick to play FS2? :P
The problem with the SW3D Pro is that it is VERY hard to get working in digital mode on modern computers. Last time it worked okay was before I hit the 800MHz mark (I think I had a 700MHz AMD Duron and then moved to an 1.4GHz (OMG!) Athlon when it stopped working.)
So in Win98, I've been using it in CH Flightstick emulation mode, and in Win2k I had to keep unplugging/replugging it until it bloody worked (As it would either work in digital mode or not at all in 2k for some stupid reason).
That was one reason why I still played FS2 under Win98, although obviously not with 3.6.12 because Win98 support has been removed :(
But this is all moot now; Grendel has sent me an updated program for the Teensy and it darn well works! So now I can use the 3D Pro in Linux, Win98 and Win2K :D :D :D
I just did a few missions in MechWarrior 3 for testing (Still the best one of the series IMHO), and having had my giant stompy mech fix, I think I'll to 2K and play Wings of Dawn some more (Why is it you always have to play the MOST ANNOYING CHARACTER?! :mad: :lol: )
I must admit, I don't know how you keyboard+mouse people can play some of these campaigns; How do you move fast enough while maintaining accuracy, e.g. when tracking someone in a loop or corkscrewing to evade missiles when you're out of CM's?!
I'm just past the mission where you first meet the 'translucent acid trip' guys with the omni-directional guns and even with the 'stick it's tricky trying to loop around their fire while shooting them!
P.S.> Sickone has 6 left! Get one before they're all gone! :D
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I just wondered why you needed the USB adapter for it then if you have a gameport. A good sound card gameport like a Sound Blaster should enable digital mode fine in Win98, regardless of how new the hardware is I thought. At least the Precision Pro was that way.
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I don't know about the Precision Pro, but unfortunately that isn't the case with Win98+3D Pro.
It is a very common problem, and as the computer gets faster, it seems the stick/driver has more and more trouble 'synching' to get into digital mode.
It's probably a bug in the Win98 driver that MS obviously won't fix, as the stick will go into digital mode in 2K/XP (albeit with some retrying), and it's always worked in Linux.
Out of curiosity what other sticks do people use these days?
I've tried my brother's Cougar and honestly it was horrible for FS2 (The throw is just ridiculous so quick maneuvering is impossible, and the gimble is completely unbalanced; You can go up/down or left/right, but trying to do a smooth diagonal is almost impossible! Also, the stick seems to have been designed for the hands of King Kong, which makes it rather awkward for my normal-sized hands :lol: )
They're bringing out a new one which uses saturn rings and hall probes instead of a gimbal and pots, which should be a major improvement (My brother's had to change the pots 4 times since he's bought it!)
The new Saitek one looks interesting; No throw at all, just pressure sensing (Although the lack of feedback might make it tricky). Looks better than their previous ludicrHOTAS too :lol:
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I have a x45 in storage I plan to get out again some day, when I have room for it. Also a CH Pro Flight Yoke and Pro Pedals. Might try to get the pedals and the x45 working together too at some point, with games that support multiple sticks.
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I've also been pretty excited about Saitek's newest tensiometric stick, the X-65F.
It's a pretty close clone of the stick used in the F-16. Unfortunately they've also cloned the initial "bug" of the original. With absolutely no "throw" the stick has a tendency to shift from one axis to another when you're making small corrections... bloody annoying and it also greatly unnerved the F-16 test pilots.
The solution has been to give the stick a very slight "throw" so you automatically know which quadrant you're in. Unfortunately I've yet to hear if Saitek did anything to fix their stick.
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I'm using Saitek 52x for FreeSpace and Descent. It's a great joystick that's good for space combat simulator and flight simulator games. But gamers got some issues in axises and USB. Other side, Logitech has very good computer controls.
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That was one reason why I still played FS2 under Win98, although obviously not with 3.6.12 because Win98 support has been removed :(
Not intentionally (at least for 3.6.12, future releases are still up in the air). Goober5000 has provided 3.6.12 built with VC6 which should allow 3.6.12 to run on 9x. See "Visual Studio 6 Builds" in the 3.6.12 release thread.
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Aaaah! I totally didn't even see those!
*Gives Iss Mneur and Goober a warm fuzzy and totally non-gay hug*