Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: General Battuta on April 18, 2010, 12:07:32 am
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I suppose I'll make Snail's discovery official. A new intelligence entry has been added to the Blue Planet website, discussing the GTVA's analysis of the Federation and the Ubuntu Party. Check it out here. (http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/ubuntufaq.html)
Those further interested in the more spiritual/philosophical elements of the Ubuntu philosophy can explore its historical roots here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(philosophy)) It may be of interest to compare the Ubuntu Party's focus on inter-human relations with the GTVA's focus on 'relations' (such as they are) between humans and xenocidal aliens.
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I just learned something today.
I thought the operating system just picked a funny word. :nervous:
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So, where do I sign up for the GTVA again? :p
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Interesting. But I got kind of annoyed about being told repeatedly to see REDACTED. :p
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Nothing I'm not already used from the Techroom. After all the GTVA sent ships to scout N362 only to find REDACTED there. :nod:
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I hope we get to fight for the GTVA in WiH.
I agree with their assessment of Ubuntu, it's a fundamentally flawed system that will result in our extinction if it goes beyond Sol.
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*Cough*
It has been said several times that you'll be flying for the UEF.
I would be interested to hear why you think Ubuntu is flawed, though.
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The story will not be rooting for either side. The goal has always been to present a truly bilateral conflict, both morally and militarily.
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I'm curious as to how our glorious Alliance managed to get such detailed info on the Feds.
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Ubuntu is really big on open information sources. Also, the GTVA has captured quite a few POWs during the conflict.
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Do they have a cousin faction called Mint? :lol:
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Do they have a cousin faction called Mint? :lol:
See the first post, please.
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I'm curious as to how our glorious Alliance managed to get such detailed info on the Feds.
(http://www.start-news.com/images/Team%20Fortress%202%20Spy%20Update%20The%20Ambassador%20Revolver.jpg)
I hope we get to fight for the GTVA in WiH.
I agree with their assessment of Ubuntu, it's a fundamentally flawed system that will result in our extinction if it goes beyond Sol.
Agreed on that count. But that's all I'll say on the matter.
There's the Battle of Jupiter mission which plays from a GalTev perspective as well.
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Ubuntu is really big on open information sources. Also, the GTVA has captured quite a few POWs during the conflict.
So the GTVA was able to collect this information via the peliminary probes of Sol? I realize that some time has passed since the events of AoA, but the dossier says that this was the basis for the GTVA's decision to go to war with UEF.
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*Cough*
It has been said several times that you'll be flying for the UEF.
I would be interested to hear why you think Ubuntu is flawed, though.
Pretty much for the very reasons presented in the GTVA dossier. It's an insular system that can't cope with anything beyond Sol, it doesn't take into account the presence of hostile alien species (In other words, it falls into the trap of assuming that everything and everyone is going to be as Utopian as they are), and frankly, the Utopian styled system seems like it'd collapse at the first sign of a sneeze, since they're so far out from human nature it's not even funny.
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Ubuntu is really big on open information sources. Also, the GTVA has captured quite a few POWs during the conflict.
So the GTVA was able to collect this information via the peliminary probes of Sol? I realize that some time has passed since the events of AoA, but the dossier says that this was the basis for the GTVA's decision to go to war with UEF.
Basically, yes. Their sensor drones picked up a lot of info by basically doing an archive binge of their internet traffic. Later, HumInt was added to the mix.
Pretty much for the very reasons presented in the GTVA dossier. It's an insular system that can't cope with anything beyond Sol, it doesn't take into account the presence of hostile alien species (In other words, it falls into the trap of assuming that everything and everyone is going to be as Utopian as they are), and frankly, the Utopian styled system seems like it'd collapse at the first sign of a sneeze, since they're so far out from human nature it's not even funny.
Hmm. I can't quite agree with that. The society that Ubuntu is trying to create is more like a proto-Culture (If you are familiar with Iain Banks' work). And as an astute reader knows, the Culture is the very epitome of Beware the nice ones (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BewareTheNiceOnes).
Consider this: Could a society that is as pacifistic as you seem to think Ubuntu is be capable of holding off the GTVA for as long as it has?
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Ubuntu is really big on open information sources. Also, the GTVA has captured quite a few POWs during the conflict.
So the GTVA was able to collect this information via the peliminary probes of Sol? I realize that some time has passed since the events of AoA, but the dossier says that this was the basis for the GTVA's decision to go to war with UEF.
Basically, yes. Their sensor drones picked up a lot of info by basically doing an archive binge of their internet traffic. Later, HumInt was added to the mix.
Pretty much for the very reasons presented in the GTVA dossier. It's an insular system that can't cope with anything beyond Sol, it doesn't take into account the presence of hostile alien species (In other words, it falls into the trap of assuming that everything and everyone is going to be as Utopian as they are), and frankly, the Utopian styled system seems like it'd collapse at the first sign of a sneeze, since they're so far out from human nature it's not even funny.
Hmm. I can't quite agree with that. The society that Ubuntu is trying to create is more like a proto-Culture (If you are familiar with Iain Banks' work). And as an astute reader knows, the Culture is the very epitome of Beware the nice ones (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BewareTheNiceOnes).
Consider this: Could a society that is as pacifistic as you seem to think Ubuntu is be capable of holding off the GTVA for as long as it has?
I was just away to edit my post and say "It's the culture without minds."
And the Minds are what make the Culture work, without them, the Culture would collapse overnight. The only thing that has kept the Ubuntu party/regime intact is that they have been isolated in Sol.
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No, they don't have Minds. That's why I said proto-Culture. Given time, they will become something like the Culture.
Yes, the Culture as presented in the books would not work without the minds. But it wasn't always this way.
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Why do so many of you people assume that just because the UEF didn't expect the GTVA to be hostile towards them, that they would treat the Shivans the same?
The GTVA are their long lost brothers and sisters. They (or half of them anyway) are the same species, while the Shivans are a species that very clearly demonstrated it's hostility, unwillingness to communicate and intent to completely wipe out the Human race in the great war.
The UEF might be peacefull, but they aren't total pacifists. They have a quite massive fleet and ships that outmatch any other ships they every saw before the node was reopened with the sole exception of the Lucifer. And the contact between the 14th battlegroup and the Renjian pretty clearly shows that they are not shy to employ violence to defend themselfs.
Also the UEF government doesn't just tolerate, but actively encourages discussion and critique of themselfs. To me that sounds like their form of government is well siuted to quickly adapt to changing situations.
So the GTVA was able to collect this information via the peliminary probes of Sol? I realize that some time has passed since the events of AoA, but the dossier says that this was the basis for the GTVA's decision to go to war with UEF.
With the exception of the Fedayeen (about which the GTVA knows pretty much only that they exist) there is really no information in that dossier that wouldn't be freely available to every UEF citizen. Look at our own political systems and history.
With the exception of some stuff that's kept under cover and the occasional manipulation of the truth everything is freely available in books, internet, TV, radio, newspapers and so on. If the GTVA would send probes back in time, they'd just need to access the internet to get as much information as they have on the UEF (though they'd probably have a harder time telling what are facts and what are fiction, rumors or outright lies).
And considering that the Fedayeen are most likely somewhat controversial within the UEF, I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few discussions and acusations thrown around in the media and whatever succeded the internet in the 24th century. Or course such "sources" only give you rumors and no hard facts, but then the dossier states quite clearly that the GTVA has no clue what the Fedayeen really do.
"they appear" "it is rumored" "it's function is unclear and puzzling" "We are not certain".... four times stating their uncertainty in just three paragraphs shows pertty well how little the GTVA know for sure about the Fedayeen.
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No, they don't have Minds. That's why I said proto-Culture. Given time, they will become something like the Culture.
Yes, the Culture as presented in the books would not work without the minds. But it wasn't always this way.
Before the Minds though, they used AIs in the same capacity (Just more limited), because even the Proto-Culture could not be counted on to be reliable when dealing with Genocidal Aliens/Excession events.
And the Shivans count as both.
Edit:
And as much as I love the Culture novels (Iain Banks is one of the best Scottish writers out there), the Culture is a fantasy that it'd be nearly impossible for humanity to reach (Iain himself said that in an interview), and whilst the Minds are the crux of the Culture, so AIs are to the Proto-Culture (AIs and, he suggested, the genetic engineering the Culture is capable of, the ability to rewrite humanity sans some of our less desirable traits.)
However, Ubuntu still has those less desirable traits, and lacks the AIs to make the hard decisions for them, so... it's doomed to failure. And it's failure could mean human extinction. So... GTVA, all the way.
Choose Survival. Fight for the GTVA.
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Why do you think they lack AI support?
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Why do you think they lack AI support?
Because AIs have never been mentioned in the Freespace lore, or at least, never mentioned as taking an active role. More likely to be support/computational roles.
At the end of the day, Freespace always has humans in command/pulling the trigger/pressing the red button/etc.
Which then leads to situations where the UEF is going to be unsuited by nature, since it's a very a humanistic society (Which is lovely), they're going to find it hard to sacrifice the few for the many. Especially when the few are a refugee convoy screaming at them to come back and save them from the incoming Shivans, and they've got to go off and protect the Europan colony instead.
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Well.
I could point out how the preconceptions you have based on your experiences as a good GTVA citizen have shaped your expectations.
Consider: The GTVA is still very much a frontier society. Yes, they have a dozen planets. BUT: All of them are pretty much untamed land. Life in the GTVA, for the average citizen, is still very much about making their worlds livable.
The UEF, on the other hand, has the most developed infrastructure in the known universe at their disposal. They have a population base that is as large as that of the entire GTVA combined. They have the resources to spend on pure research projects. They can afford to do stuff that the GTVA would never, ever contemplate, simply because it would not be practical for them.
In short, the success of Ubuntu is very much based on the Elders being Badass Bookworms, well versed in the art of Awesomeness by Analysis. They have the ressources I just described at their disposal. They can, and indeed have created a Utopia for Mankind. They have created something that is so powerful that even should the GTVA achieve military supremacy, it will have to change into something unrecognizable because there is no other way to hold Sol.
Also, consider this: The Shivans are the symptoms of a larger problem. The Shivans themselves cannot be beaten by military force. You can blow up Sathanii left and right, and you would still not make a dent. The GTVA's absolute focus on finding a resolution based on force of arms is too narrow to find a long-term solution.
The Vasudans have a somewhat different POV. So does the UEF. Are they wrong? Maybe. But, does that make the GTVA right by default?
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I think we should see the Ubuntu-GTVA ideological conflict from a different point of vue. Let's remember Capella : the Shivans can't be defeated with military actions. It's a fact. Yes, we can slow them down, yes, we can isolate ourselves blowing nodes up, but eventually, we can't win a war against the Shivans.
Starting from this fact, GTVA's point of vue is wrong. Even if they win the war against the UEF with minimal losses, get the hand on Sol industrial power and build a huge fleet of Raynors and Titans, they can't hope to win a war against the Shivans. The only thing they can hope is either to stop them temporarily via node collapsing, or make a last stand before going into hiding à la Sanctuary. Humanity can't spend its history fighting an invincible enemy, dreading about their next incursion, or go in hiding forever in a sleeper ship.
So, that being said, what remaining choice do we have ? The Ubuntu is not ready for a military conflict against a xenocidal race, it's also a fact. But as I just said above, the military solution isn't the good solution anyway.
Now let's remember Age of Aquarius. How did the 14th Battlegroup and the Sanctuary made it back to our universe, while the whole Shivan armada wanted them dead ? Not really thanks to their military might. They survived because of the Vishnans. More precisely, because the Vishnans chose to save them.
Now why did they chose to ?
They have created. They have created communities where former enemies can live in peace. They have created peace from war, where former enemies are now friends.
Both races exhibited potential.
And what is humanity doing in War in Heaven ? Where are the communities, where is the peace, what do we create, where is the potential the Vishnans decided worth saving ? And add to that the fact that even the relations between the Terran and Vasudan in GTVA are damaged, and you will be starting to understand my point.
Only the Vishnans have the power to stop the Shivans. But if we ever manage to contact the Vishnans in our universe, they probably won't be so much willing to save our races if we continue to fight each other.
Conclusion : War isn't the solution. But basing all our hopes on the Vishnans when we don't even know how to contact them, and not even being assured that they will help us, isn't very clever either. Maybe it's too late, maybe we have already wasted our potential as a race, and then we can only count on GTVA's military solution. But maybe not. We know some Ubuntu leaders "claim that they are in contact with a sophisticated alien race", and same goes for some Vasudan "prophets". Maybe it's the Vishnans. Maybe it's just fantasizing. Maybe it is something totally different. But it also may be the last hope to "bring the rest of our race to enlightenment".
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;-)
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<<Vishnans>>
Let us not forget that if the Vishnans truly wanted to save us, they could have done so already. Let us not forget that the Vishnans allowed the Shivans to destroy Vasuda Prime and Earth in the alternate universe and allowed billions to perish somewhat needlessly.
The Vishnans probably have some hidden agenda. Hell, they're practically on first-name basis with Shiva.
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... ugh ... Why turn the UEF into wannabe-Culture?
This is an interesting read, and i applaud that you are going to such lengths to flesh it all out but... i disagree on the whole idea :p
In any case, looking forward to more reads like this :)
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No force is infinite in size. Just how many Sathani does the Shivans have in your fanon (not ones that appear in the campaign but ones that exist)? Knowing Bat, he would say millions, but that is far fetched and he isn't the creator of BP. Enlighten me. Then can you tell me how many Dantes they have? I remember you saying that they have even bigger ships in this fanon universe.
You are right, no force is infinite. There are limits to the Shivans. But there is no way of knowing what those limits are.
Everything we've seen so far points towards the Shivans operating on scales that are quite literally unfathomable. How can you fight an enemy that has demonstrated the ability to overpower you whenever it chooses? How can you hope to defeat an enemy that has no known fixed bases? No known infrastructure? That has demonstrated abilities far above your own?
You can quite safely assume that the Shivans have the resources to wipe out humanity in a week, if they are feeling lazy.
... ugh ... Why turn the UEF into wannabe-Culture?
Because a) we can b) the Culture is awesome and c) because we can.
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Let us not forget that if the Vishnans truly wanted to save us, they could have done so already. Let us not forget that the Vishnans allowed the Shivans to destroy Vasuda Prime and Earth in the alternate universe and allowed billions to perish somewhat needlessly.
The Vishnans probably have some hidden agenda. Hell, they're practically on first-name basis with Shiva.
Then I suggest you to replay AoA. The Vishnans didn't even know of the existence of the Terrans and the Vasudans before they contacted Bei. In the same way, if the Vishnans in Sanctuary's universe and in ours can't communicate in any way, the Vishnans probably don't know about us yet - unless they have been in contact with Ubuntu leaders/Vasudan prophets, but that's another matter.
That the Vishnans have their own agenda, hell yes. Like the Shivans, we know literally nothing about them. But they have saved the 14th BG and the Sanctuary because humanity had showed "potential" - and not even in their universe ! And then they say "We will meet again when your people are ready". Clearly, they are disposed to help us again if we show we deserve it - if we consider that the Vishnans in our universe and in Sanctuary's have a similar agenda.
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... ugh ... Why turn the UEF into wannabe-Culture?
Because a) we can b) the Culture is awesome and c) because we can.
But... UBUNTU?!? XD
Was there a precursor movement called Debian maybe? :p
[/intentional asshattery]
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... ugh ... Why turn the UEF into wannabe-Culture?
Because a) we can b) the Culture is awesome and c) because we can.
But... UBUNTU?!? XD
Was there a precursor movement called Debian maybe? :p
[/intentional asshattery]
This was the original inspiration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(philosophy)).
Much as The_E may namedrop the Culture, and while it's a useful metaphor, the UEF is the UEF, and its details were not particularly informed by the Culture.
Also, I think team members should probably step back from the debates. We've always wanted to create a bilateral war in which both sides had good arguments for their superiority. Let's let the arguments happen!
and frankly, the Utopian styled system seems like it'd collapse at the first sign of a sneeze, since they're so far out from human nature it's not even funny.
Reread the dossier, you weren't paying attention!
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Also, I think team members should probably step back from the debates. We've always wanted to create a bilateral war in which both sides had good arguments for their superiority. Let's let the arguments happen!
Agreed.
I'm stepping off my Pro-GTVA horse for the time being, as far as discussions are going.
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Level of sophistication on the economics side not usually seen in mods, good work (as with most elements). Glad to know those of us in Hong Kong haven't forgotten our trade skills 300 years in the future :)
Very similar to my personal philosophies actually. I might have to join up. I'm quite curious about the economics of the whole thing... wait, you guys have a behavioral economist in your ranks. I know do. If not, at least someone in marketing.
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Heh... Good read.
...Now where's my Herc II?
:mad2: :yes:
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Very similar to my personal philosophies actually. I might have to join up. I'm quite curious about the economics of the whole thing... wait, you guys have a behavioral economist in your ranks. I know do. If not, at least someone in marketing.
It was that bouncing Battuta! I know it!
Heh... Good read.
...Now where's my Herc II?
:mad2: :yes:
GTVA NEEDS YOU
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Level of sophistication on the economics side not usually seen in mods, good work (as with most elements). Glad to know those of us in Hong Kong haven't forgotten our trade skills 300 years in the future :)
Very similar to my personal philosophies actually. I might have to join up. I'm quite curious about the economics of the whole thing... wait, you guys have a behavioral economist in your ranks. I know do. If not, at least someone in marketing.
Ve are honored by your presence, sirrah.
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I'm assuming the feds use linux?
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(http://i39.tinypic.com/2vi5jza.jpg)
What's all this talk about protoculture then? :P
The story will not be rooting for either side. The goal has always been to present a truly bilateral conflict, both morally and militarily.
I'm interested in seeing how you guys are going to pull this off when the player only gets to fly as UEF :nod:
I have high hopes, considering the level of writing
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Not too much of a problem I guess. Just look at Sol: A History. There you even play for the "bad" side.
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;-)
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But... UBUNTU?!? XD
Was there a precursor movement called Debian maybe?
[/intentional asshattery]
Well, there was another more radical faction named gNewSense, but it was full of ideological bull****. :P :lol:
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2vi5jza.jpg)
What's all this talk about protoculture then? :P
I knew someone was going to mention Robotech. :P
However, Carl Macek passed away last Saturday. :(
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Badass Bookworms (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassBookworm)
Awesomeness by Analysis (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AwesomenessByAnalysis?from=Main.AwesomeByAnalysis)
Fixed.
Seriously, you mention tropes but do not link to them?
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That's because he was nice enough to not send us for a three-hour link-hopping spree through the depths of TVTropes goddammit Sparda aargh...
(Well, I escaped myself, but I'm sure someone else won't. :p)
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DERAIL
TVTropes has jumped the shark a wee bit, actually. A lot of its entries have gone from dry understated humor to that certain class of raving that comes from people who don't understand that other people don't care quite as much.
PLZ RERAIL
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DERAIL AGAIN 4 A SEC PLZ
Hasn't the phrase "jumped the shark" jumped its own shark by this point? :p
RERAIL KTHXBAI
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Well to put this back on topic...
I think we should see the Ubuntu-GTVA ideological conflict from a different point of vue. Let's remember Capella : the Shivans can't be defeated with military actions. It's a fact. Yes, we can slow them down, yes, we can isolate ourselves blowing nodes up, but eventually, we can't win a war against the Shivans.
Starting from this fact, GTVA's point of vue is wrong. Even if they win the war against the UEF with minimal losses, get the hand on Sol industrial power and build a huge fleet of Raynors and Titans, they can't hope to win a war against the Shivans. The only thing they can hope is either to stop them temporarily via node collapsing, or make a last stand before going into hiding à la Sanctuary. Humanity can't spend its history fighting an invincible enemy, dreading about their next incursion, or go in hiding forever in a sleeper ship.
So, that being said, what remaining choice do we have ? The Ubuntu is not ready for a military conflict against a xenocidal race, it's also a fact. But as I just said above, the military solution isn't the good solution anyway.
Now let's remember Age of Aquarius. How did the 14th Battlegroup and the Sanctuary made it back to our universe, while the whole Shivan armada wanted them dead ? Not really thanks to their military might. They survived because of the Vishnans. More precisely, because the Vishnans chose to save them.
Now why did they chose to ?
They have created. They have created communities where former enemies can live in peace. They have created peace from war, where former enemies are now friends.
Both races exhibited potential.
And what is humanity doing in War in Heaven ? Where are the communities, where is the peace, what do we create, where is the potential the Vishnans decided worth saving ? And add to that the fact that even the relations between the Terran and Vasudan in GTVA are damaged, and you will be starting to understand my point.
Only the Vishnans have the power to stop the Shivans. But if we ever manage to contact the Vishnans in our universe, they probably won't be so much willing to save our races if we continue to fight each other.
Conclusion : War isn't the solution. But basing all our hopes on the Vishnans when we don't even know how to contact them, and not even being assured that they will help us, isn't very clever either. Maybe it's too late, maybe we have already wasted our potential as a race, and then we can only count on GTVA's military solution. But maybe not. We know some Ubuntu leaders "claim that they are in contact with a sophisticated alien race", and same goes for some Vasudan "prophets". Maybe it's the Vishnans. Maybe it's just fantasizing. Maybe it is something totally different. But it also may be the last hope to "bring the rest of our race to enlightenment".
I think MatthTheGeek's post sums up my opinion on this topic.
And I quote this as evidence:
Meanwhile, two powerful alien races watch from afar, waiting to see if humankind will fulfill its potential as the Great Creators.
I hope they have a lot of patience... :nervous:
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;-)
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I would be rather amused if the Shivans came back and kicked the GTVA's butt.
Come to think of it, if it weren't for the GTVA, the UEF wouldn't even be at risk of a Shivan attack. It's their stupid fault for building a portal and potentially letting the Shivans back into Sol. Idiots.
el_magnifico++;
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Don't forget that the Shivans can rebuild jump nodes, though.
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I would be rather amused if the Shivans came back and kicked the GTVA's butt.
If the Shivans decide to intervene, I don't think they will only exterminate the GTVA.
It looks like they evaluate species as a whole, not factions (look at what they did to the HOL and the NTF).
Maybe they would spare the Vasudans though.
Just my humble opinion.
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I would be rather amused if the Shivans came back and kicked the GTVA's butt.
If the Shivans decide to intervene, I don't think they will only exterminate the GTVA.
It looks like they evaluate species as a whole, not factions (look at what they did to the HOL and the NTF).
Maybe they would spare the Vasudans though.
Just my humble opinion.
I doubt it - they glassed Vasuda Prime in the first Shivan Incursion.
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I would be rather amused if the Shivans came back and kicked the GTVA's butt.
If the Shivans decide to intervene, I don't think they will only exterminate the GTVA.
It looks like they evaluate species as a whole, not factions (look at what they did to the HOL and the NTF).
Maybe they would spare the Vasudans though.
Just my humble opinion.
I doubt it - they glassed Vasuda Prime in the first Shivan Incursion.
According to the info that we have, Vasudans have changed a lot since the first Shivan incursion. Don't you think so? :)
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Don't forget that the Shivans can rebuild jump nodes, though.
orly ?
Sure, Shivans can travel through unstable jump nodes, and even then, we don't know how much stable it need to be for them to travel in it. But as far as we know, only the Ancients have ever 'rebuilt' nodes (and I don't really think the term even applies to jump nodes).
Meanwhile, two powerful alien races watch from afar, waiting to see if humankind will fulfill its potential as the Great Creators.
I must have missed this one. Where is it from ?
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orly ?
yarly
There is so much we don't know about the shivans, if the BP team says they can rebuild nodes in the BP universe, then they bloody well can :P
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You got a point. Just forgot that Battuta is best positioned than us to talk about the BP continuity :)
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Orestes control has a super mario tea-cup. This much is fact.
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orly ?
yarly
There is so much we don't know about the shivans, if the BP team says they can rebuild nodes in the BP universe, then they bloody well can :P
You got a point. Just forgot that Battuta is best positioned than us to talk about the BP continuity :)
Whoa whoa whoa, this has nothing to do with Blue Planet. Rewatch the FreeSpace 1 end cutscene.
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Yeah, if you really trust what the guy says in the ending cutscene. I don't think he really knows what he's saying.*
But yes, he did say that, point.