Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: NGTM-1R on May 17, 2010, 01:31:10 am
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I have no idea why you guys think the harpoon is so great or so 'signature dogfight', when compared to tempests it's almost useless.
Fire and forget, doublefire kills or at least finishes instantly. Again, you don't play singleplayer enough, you're not really qualified to commentate on the FS universe.
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I have no idea why you guys think the harpoon is so great or so 'signature dogfight', when compared to tempests it's almost useless.
Fire and forget, doublefire kills or at least finishes instantly. Again, you don't play singleplayer enough, you're not really qualified to commentate on the FS universe.
Ooh, jealousy is such an ugly emotion! :p
I've worked with him as a tester for the past few months and nobody I know has a better grasp of the way the single player works. I'd wager he's played more single player than almost anyone here, and then he's got multi experience on top of that.
He just posted a couple good playthroughs for FSPort and ST:R, too. Good stuff.
Were there to be some sort of system of actual qualifications to commentate on the FS Universe, I imagine QuantumDelta would be the gold standard.
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Then again, QD is to a normal player what a Top Gun instructor is to a Cadet at the academy. He's good enough to use Tempests like nobody's business. Most people aren't. They use Harpoons, which are very good at what they're supposed to do.
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Ooh, jealousy is such an ugly emotion! :p
I'm going to assume you're kidding, as the alternative is quite frankly something I'm not willing to contemplate.
I've worked with him as a tester for the past few months and nobody I know has a better grasp of the way the single player works. I'd wager he's played more single player than almost anyone here, and then he's got multi experience on top of that.
Yes, which is why he dismisses things in the face of the opinion of everyone else. He's a solitary genius! Inspired!
Not likely.
QuantumDelta is colored by his belief in the multi, which is empathetically not what has kept this game alive or the reason I or you are here. When he does play single, he plays it on difficulties that render his opinon extremely suspect. Much as you choose to bleat about Fury's AI in other threads and Insane, this is pointless. This isn't Falcon and it wasn't designed for that level of difficulty and then they worked down so it would be playable for everyone else. If you want to make an argument about the way they actually built this game, you'd be far better off arguing that retail Medium is "reality" than anything else.
And on that setting, Harpoons are typically more useful then Tempests.
He just posted a couple good playthroughs for FSPort and ST:R, too. Good stuff.
Were there to be some sort of system of actual qualifications to commentate on the FS Universe, I imagine QuantumDelta would be the gold standard.
See above.
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Ooh, jealousy is such an ugly emotion! :p
I'm going to assume you're kidding, as the alternative is quite frankly something I'm not willing to contemplate.
You do sound jealous!
I titter.
I know you guys have had your disagreements in the past, and I think the fact that QD has such overwhelming authority presents a challenge to you.
We've already started posturing and preening about who plays REAL FREESPACE. Let's not descend into run-of-the-mill dickwaving.
Much as you choose to bleat about Fury's AI in other threads and Insane, this is pointless. This isn't Falcon and it wasn't designed for that level of difficulty
wut
Retail Insane is a piece of cake. Fury AI works on all difficulty levels, across the board. It makes things livelier as much as it makes them harder.
Are you aware that on difficulties below insane, the player gets a magical damage buffer and the number of attackers is actually hard-capped?
If you want to make an argument about the way they actually built this game, you'd be far better off arguing that retail Medium is "reality" than anything else.
So in reality, only a few fighters and turrets can shoot at the player, and s/he magically takes 60% of the damage that everything else does?
Whoa!
And on that setting, Harpoons are typically more useful then Tempests.
Tempests are still better on medium. Their DPS is crazy!
What I'm getting here is a really funky displacement mechanism to deal with the fact that you're not amazing at the game. Which is hardly something you should worry about - play for fun.
But I suggest trying out Insane. You'll probably surprise yourself. And until you've played Insane, you'll be working off bad data.
It's really not that bad.
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:wtf: @ NGTM-1R
(http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/5/10/633775495275400070-DoubleFacepalm.jpg)
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Retail Insane is a piece of cake. Fury AI works on all difficulty levels, across the board. It makes things livelier as much as it makes them harder.
This is irrevelant as it is neither the way :v: would have designed the game to be played, nor the way the majority of players would have/do played/play it.
Are you aware that on difficulties below insane, the player gets a magical damage buffer and the number of attackers is actually hard-capped?
This is irrevelant as it is neither the way :v: would have designed the game to be played, nor the way the majority of players would have/do played/play it.
Or do you mean that they MEANT for all those extra missiles besides Tempests and maybe Rockeyes to almost never be used? That they'd drop in a whole sequence of a fighter several missions long and it'd be completely useless? That :v: is basically composed of idiots who put in a bunch of hard work knowing it would all be for nothing in the end? You're really going to bite the hand that gave us this game that way?
So in reality, only a few fighters and turrets can shoot at the player, and s/he magically takes 60% of the damage that everything else does?
Why not? It's a game and we're talking about what constitutes reality in the game. Your desire for absolute realism is already irrelevent considering we have subspace travel, stealth fighters in space, conventional weapons with kiloton and megaton yields that are smaller than a human body, and everything takes place at ludicriously low speeds. You want reality, go play I-War or something. Your arbitrary skepticism does you no credit here.
Tempests are still better on medium. Their DPS is crazy!
And as anyone who exists outside an MMO can tell you, DPS isn't everything. Tactical factors typically dominate in a direct confrontation. It's great that your own are different from everyone else's, but you're failing your statistics classes and common sense by assuming you constitute any kind of norm.
But I suggest trying out Insane. You'll probably surprise yourself. And until you've played Insane, you'll be working off bad data.
Arbitrary decision. Prove this is true in light of the fact most players of this game would never touch insane and :v: would have known this.
For that matter, you have no idea what level I typically play the game on, or how good at it I am. You know what level I test it on, because I've told you, but honestly, you're just talking out of your ass accusing me of anything related to skill or jealousy of.
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*post about Tempests vs. Harpoons*
My care factor for anything in this post is 0 < care < .000001. If you think Harpoons are better than Tempests, fine by me - whatever works for the player. I could not give less of a **** about the whole issue, nor about 'realism'.
I'm just amused by the whole QD/NGTM-1R interaction. You have your strong opinions, QD comes along with his wads of authority, and suddenly the stuff I read about in papers for lab meetings has Sprung to Life! The first time you two got in an argument it was like a flowchart from a textbook.
Individual derives self-worth from trait, another individual threatens trait, individual #1 attempts to marginalize the threat of individual #2 by derogating the experiences that give #2 authority. I'm sure he's as guilty of it as you, but we've got these lovely posts of yours to dissect right here.
People who talk about games and their players discuss metagames as a term for the way people tackle the games they play. Rather than yelling at each other, or composing elaborate, IRC-crowd-pleasing posts explaining why QuantumDelta occupies a delusional alternate reality that would have DESTROYED FREESPACE ITSELF, you should accept that you and QD play different metagames, which may run by different rules. QD's is hypercompetitive and mechanics-based. Yours is noncompetitive and fluff-based.
You don't need to prove anything to anybody. It's not like people are suddenly going to decide you don't have any metaphorical clothes because you can't pass QuantumDelta Training Gauntlet #426: Fire-Beam (Repeat 10000). This is a friendly community.
If you're afraid of losing your status in the pack, just chill out.
On a side note, Fury's AI doesn't make everything wildly harder. It makes the AI smarter, enabling sensible tactics like vertical breaks and permitting the AI access to the same toolbox the player has. You should check it out in-game to get a sense of how it changes AI behavior.
Also, can I have your permission to use this whole QD/NGTM-1R thing as an anecdote in a paper I'm doing for lab? :D
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Please NGTM-1R, you're an intelligent person, stop doing this to yourself.
Otherwise, they will close this interesting topic too, and that would be the fourth time since I'm here that this happens because of an argument you started.
So I'm asking you, as a favor, please, not again.
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Editted to keep up with thread split.
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Are you aware that on difficulties below insane, the player gets a magical damage buffer and the number of attackers is actually hard-capped?
This is irrevelant as it is neither the way :v: would have designed the game to be played, nor the way the majority of players would have/do played/play it.
Or do you mean that they MEANT for all those extra missiles besides Tempests and maybe Rockeyes to almost never be used? That they'd drop in a whole sequence of a fighter several missions long and it'd be completely useless? That :v: is basically composed of idiots who put in a bunch of hard work knowing it would all be for nothing in the end? You're really going to bite the hand that gave us this game that way?
Did... did you just say that the way :v: designed the game to be played is not the way :v: would have designed the game to be played?
Did I just get my one post split into three different topics?
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Hopefully, my FS2 playthrough will provide a little evidence as to why I strongly recommend tempest over harpoons, on any difficulty.
On the easier difficulties, Harpoons are 'less bad', but as the gloves come off and the player stops getting benefits that the AI doesn't just because of the difficulty you come to realise that having near-harpoon damage in a single volley while still having several dozen volleys available to you makes tempest simply superior.
Nevermind that they work as a complimentary additional primary, thus adds what you allude to in terms of what is important; burst damage.
...
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I certainly agree that Tempests are the superior missile choice etc ec
But can you guys stop praising QD as if he is some kind of god walking among mortals?
His ego is large enough as it is. :p
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I use both.
Harpoons are efficient and very useful to quickly clear out enemies. Fire and forget means you fire off, and move to the next enemy immediately.
Tempests are something I prefer to use against heavier, slower targets.
At the end of the day people will find the best way to use both.
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They're both decent secondaries, and suit different play-styles.
I come from the Erich Hartmann school of thought, so I tend to prefer tempests over most other missiles since they make things disappear at close range, but I like my harpoons nonetheless. Especially when I'm playing on Furian AI against Dragons that love running rings around my ship and my ****ty joystick (which I've somewhat fixed..), it's so much easier to hang back and lob harpoons at the bastard.
Anyway. Enough of this willy-swinging, boys. They're both good missiles in my opinion. Now I'd prefer we leave this thread to wither out, rather than rant on about NGTM-1R or take sides.
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In my opinion, usefulness of different weapons depends heavily on available space. A Loki with Tempests is arguably the finest dogfighting machine available if your shooting is good, a Loki with guided missiles is silly. A Perseus could have twice the number of guided missiles and a comfortable loadout of Tempests more than makes up for the loss of performance in a knife fight.
Similarly, Tornados may become more attractive than Harpoons if your loadout is large enough that you can afford a little waste on overkill.
Still, I can't really think of many situations where I'd fly a fighter and not choose at least one bank of Tempests. With asymetrical banks, I'm likely to put them in the smaller one though: I find them a little distracting so I only use them when I'm fairly sure they're doing some good.
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I prefer Tempests over anything else in the vast majority of situations. They are like a primary weapon, but can be linked with other primaries without any fire rate or energy penalty. If you combine them with a high end primary like a Kayser or Prometheus S (or a Maxim, which takes a bit more practice but often works even better), you can tear through groups of enemies at a speed not possible with anything else.
I still often take Harpoons or Tornados in a second bank though. Harpoons can sometimes be handy in TvT and dogfights due to their accuracy and fast locking time. Tornados tend to be more useful in singleplayer and co-op because of their extra range, which can allow you to sit just outside the range of anti-fighter beams.
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Given that the Tempest work like a secondary primary (yes, that makes sense, lalalala can't hear you), if you can easily hit something with your primaries, the Tempest will do the job 5x faster. Like Dilmah said, if you are fighting against ships that can easily circle your fighter like Lokis or Dragons, you're gonna need something else, like Trebuchet or Harpoons at longer range.
Also keep in mind that while the Tempest have a very high shield damage for a missile, Furies in FS1 don't. Interceptors>Furies for dogfights. I'd rather use dumbfire Interceptors than Furies against shielded targets.
Oh and @Battuta and QD : FS2 Insane is not a piece of cake. While FS1 is perfectly doable in Insane, AAA are ridiculously overpowered for the game to be playable at all for a human being. Lalalala can't hear you.
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:cool:
I've been away too long.
Vaguely relevant but random tangent: FS1 had terrible secondaries. Fury` was hardly any use except in those 3 missions where you have only the ML-16 against shields.
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Given that the Tempest work like a secondary primary (yes, that makes sense, lalalala can't hear you), if you can easily hit something with your primaries, the Tempest will do the job 5x faster.
So basically you're saying that Tempests should be your primary secondary. :P
Now that I'm here, I'll just interject that dual-fired Tempests have nearly 5 times the armor DPS and 3 times the shield DPS of a single unlinked Kayser.
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Well campaigns that use AAA heavily on insane can be a bit hard on occasion, cuz there is no avoiding beams, there's no absorbing their damage either, simply, get hit by it until you're either out of it's fov or removed it from existence :P
FS2 however does not make heavy usage of AAA, you're more likely to get mobed by flak.
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Actually, the problem is that I just can't go anywhere further than the third mission of the main campaign in Insane (you know, the "I can live with being a pawn if the game makes sense" mission), because you simply can't possibly survive the 6 AAA that the two cruisers bring at you while trying to lure the escort away. And yes, I've tried to take them out with the Rockeye's superior range and anti-subsystem capability, but that's usually not enough. And the Hatshy won't come and rescue you until you take out those Lokis. So yeah, maybe there are less AAA in the rest of the campaign, but I'm not gonna experience that anytime soon. I stick to the Hard difficulty, it fits pretty well my playing style :p
So basically you're saying that Tempests should be your primary secondary. :P
Hehe. This.
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Actually, the problem is that I just can't go anywhere further than the third mission of the main campaign in Insane (you know, the "I can live with being a pawn if the game makes sense" mission), because you simply can't possibly survive the 6 AAA that the two cruisers bring at you while trying to lure the escort away. And yes, I've tried to take them out with the Rockeye's superior range and anti-subsystem capability, but that's usually not enough. And the Hatshy won't come and rescue you until you take out those Lokis. So yeah, maybe there are less AAA in the erst of the campaign, but I'm not gonna experience it anytime soon. I stick to the Hard difficulty, it fits pretty well my playing style :p
I got stuck exactly there. My wingmen kept evaporating, and I was unable to lure Lokis away from either of the cruisers. They were almost to the jump point by the time they hit me with a good AAA again and got me.
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You only really need to take out two of the beams, then some aggressive use of your wingmen will cover you enough to blitz all the Loki..
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All the walkthroughs in the world won't help if you aren't a good enough pilot to pull it off. I can't manage insane (but I can play Hard, at least, if not well).
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I think both NGTM-1R and Battuta could stand to take a bit of a breather here, and everyone else could tone back on fueling the flames. I've re-named the title to something a little less directly inflammatory, since I don't see anything productive about that. We're all adults (or close enough) here, and we should be able to discuss topics like this in a civil fashion.
As for the main topic at-hand, I'd like to interject my own limited perspective into the mix. I said in the original thread that I personally find Harpoons far more useful than Tempests, and I should probably elaborate on that statement. Whether due to my current joystick setup, or my innate lack of skill, or some combination of the two, I generally perform very poorly at fine-aiming tasks. My usual tactic for taking on enemy fighters involves pegging my primary trigger and struggling to keep the target in my sights as much as possible, and if one in ten shots lands, I consider that successful. (It's probably more like one in twenty when fighting something like a Dragon.) For this reason, I've generally never played above Easy difficulty, so I can still have a decent chance at hitting things. Given that most ships you can fly seem to have secondary bank positions that are less conducive to direct aiming than the primaries, I could easily see myself expending the better part of a bank of Tempests and landing only a few on my target. With Harpoons, I'm reasonably guaranteed that the majority of my secondary shots will hit my target (at least now that the countermeasures bug is fixed, anyway). DPS is all well and good, but only if you're able to exploit the full amount of damage, and I feel I have a much better chance of doing that with a Harpoon or Tornado than a Tempest.
(Plus, there's just something cool about using aspect-lock missiles. :p)
As a side note, I do think that NGTM-1R had somewhat of a point about both Insane difficulty and Fury's AI. While the former may apply artificial restrictions to the enemy AI, I'd wager that the majority of the members on this forum have never even attempted playing at that difficulty level, and I doubt that :v: expected most of the game's players to use it either. As for the latter, while Fury's hard work on it is certainly extremely commendable, the fact remains that enabling it takes the gameplay out of the realm of pure FreeSpace to a third-party mod. When discussing a topic in purely retail-game terms, I'm not quite sure what purpose citing it serves.
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Quick question : who use the mouse and who use a joystick/other controller ? I use the mouse, and I think it makes for better accuracy, but it may be different for other pilots.
And yes, it's related to the topic, given that the usefulness of the Tempest depends greatly on the ability of hitting something with it :p
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As I've always said:
Loki + Tempest = WIN
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As I've always said:
Loki + Tempest = WIN
going light i have always preferred the Perseus but then i usually play easy/medium
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I use the mouse. I could barely hit anything when I tried a joystick; I don't know if that's my fault or just the suckitude of my joystick.
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Mongoose;
Fury's AI is closer to the original FreeSpace AI than SCP AI is anyway so....... :P
Insane = Player and AI on equal terms.
None of this player somehow magically takes less damage from the same attack bull****.
None of this player somehow magically does extra damage with the same weapons bull****.
More or less everything is equal 'cept skill, the AI is rather limited and will only do a few things (especially on SCP builds rather than pure retail 1.2).
What holds true for insane is many times over more effective on lower difficulties because the modifiers aren't on-off, they're multiplicative and easily applicable across the board while only having experienced one difficulty.
To me, there is no discernible difference between medium and very easy, and very little difference between medium and hard.
Insane however has a step up over hard which is pretty obvious and that's because the last of the multipliers are totally removed.
There are a few exceptions (the energy refill rate on weapons I believe is still above-"normal" on insane, but AI get hardcoded infinite weapon energy on insane anyway so meh :P)
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Infinite? I didn't know that. Enemy only or friendly too? I want my wingmen to be Taurets with Kaysers. :D
Speaking of AI, does Fury's AI make the AI not suck with Tempests?
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Yes to both (though, I only have multiplayer information for that so I don't know....but it's why the lamprey is THE WORST coop/single player weapon in the game bar none) and Yes it makes Fury's AI pretty decent with the tempests.
About the controls by the way.
Joysticks, even well configured ones, tend to be the best turners, but the least accurate (*training rigorously - especially on multi can fix this).
Keyboards, when used expertly are inbetween both other mediums, having joint best turning for most skill levels, and easier to grapple accuracy.
Mice, when used properly have the slowest turning (and no matter what, will never make that up), but by far and away the highest accuracy.
Mice users (good ones) used to really be the bane of my existence in multi, JS and KB users I just flew 'round until they made a mistake, but mouse accuracy made getting that far on a player that knew how to properly use morning star was virtually impossible.
Don't mess with mice users in a joust.
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I use a joystick, just to put in my two cents worth.
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Well, things certainly aren't equal when AIs get unlimited weapon energy. On a related note, I believe energy regeneration for humans matches the AI's at Hard, not Insane. Afterburner recharge at least is a straight match for the table entries on Hard and slower on insane (and I think I've seen AIs keeping up with me at full power to engines and burning, on Hard. This should be impossible if AI always flies under Insane rules).
I have no evidence for shield and weapon energy regeneration, but assume it's the same.
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The AI doesn't so much get infinite energy but faster recharging energy. They can and do run out (when using stuff like Maxims) but they'll also get the energy back quicker.
There are many times I switch to Subachs because it's the only weapon that will not run out of energy while I'm mid-mission because on Insane the recharge rate is a trickle even with weapons heavily boosted.
Fury's AI does mean the AI can use Tempests and also Trebuchets. Both mean it's significantly harder and in fact needs to be considered when using the AI because it can literally break missions that did not intend the AI to have access to a powerful long ranged missile that requires no lock (the AI does not in fact have to lock its secondaries). Or even secondaries at all since the normal AI doesn't use Tempests.
As for missiles, I've been a fan of the Tornado over the Harpoon because of the extra range. Tempests are great but only if the mission is the type where I can deal with everything myself. Aspect missiles enable me to project force in several directions nearly simultaneously. It's the reason why I (and I'm sure most people in retail) favor the Trebuchet whenever it's available. They're also a lot easier to use which counts for something even on its own. Of course, the AI is generally better with aspect missiles than trying to shoot down their intended targets.
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There are many times I switch to Subachs because it's the only weapon that will not run out of energy while I'm mid-mission because on Insane the recharge rate is a trickle even with weapons heavily boosted.
^This. You can already feel the loss in recharge rate from Medium to Hard. Kayser in Hard is already a no-no.
Fury's AI does mean the AI can use Tempests and also Trebuchets.
Yes to Tempest, no to Trebuchets. Unless you throw ingame a ship with both the "bomber" and "huge" flag, the Trebuchet can be used by AI only with the correct sexp.
(the AI does not in fact have to lock its secondaries)
Hum, you sure about this one ?
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Fury's AI does mean the AI can use Tempests and also Trebuchets.
Yes to Tempest, no to Trebuchets. Unless you throw ingame a ship with both the "bomber" and "huge" flag, the Trebuchet can be used by AI only with the correct sexp.
Nope. Fury's AI lets the AI use Trebs without good-secondary-time.
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(the AI does not in fact have to lock its secondaries)
Hum, you sure about this one ?
The code says so.
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(the AI does not in fact have to lock its secondaries)
Hum, you sure about this one ?
The code says so.
That doesn't necessarily mean it's true, as I've found out a couple of times. :p
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In this case, though, it is. It's fairly obvious in-game too if you look for it.
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Since they have missile lock before you get in missile range half the time, yea. :P
Hmm.....Kayser on hard no-no?
I use it on insane :<
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You can make up for it using Tempests if you have the luxury of reloading but in some missions you could end up looking at Seraphim bombers with zero Tempests and no weapons energy at all even if every shot landed true =(
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You should have seen my forced entry replay on youtube (well, it's still there) I spend quite a segment of it with zero weapon energy and using tempest to bridge the gap xD (insane + fury's ai I think..?)
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Yeah, I tried that too while trying to figure out a method that doesn't require running around doing everything myself. A Perseus can't carry enough Tempests for me to deal with everything if I pack a Kayser. By the time I get to the Seraphim bombers I'd have only 30 Tempests, no weapons energy and a grimace on my face.
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Hmm.....Kayser on hard no-no?
I use it on insane :<
In your case, you should start by telling what you can't do in insane, it'll be much smaller list.
Nope. Fury's AI lets the AI use Trebs without good-secondary-time.
Now I'm interested. How was it done ? I don't see technically how the AI can pick up a target with Treb without a wep-table hack.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54CH13DE6og (720p)
You can see the missiles pouring out from the Maras at various points. The Trebuchets are also clearly shown in the latter portion, launched by your wingmen at the cruiser.
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MatthTheGeek, this may come as a surprise to you, but "huge" flag does not prevent AI pilot from using a weapon against bombers. In turrets this flag works differently and prevents turret from targeting small ships. For this reason The E implemented a flag called capital+, which works like bomber+ flag.
The fact that Trebuchet has "huge" flag has no meaning other than it can kill corvettes and capitals, unless you equip it on turrets. Only bomber+ flag disallows AI pilot from using it against fighters, but not bombers.
As to why retail AI does not use Trebuchets or Tempests, I do not know. But custom AI can use them likely because of $smart secondary weapon selection in ai_profiles.tbl.
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Interesting.
Someone should fix what the wiki says about that, because it's clearly mentioned that the "bomber+" and the "huge" contradicts themselves and strictly prevent the AI to use Treb. I took that as true.
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Actually it does not contradict anything.
Huge
Allows this weapon to do the final 10% damage to a ship with the "Big Damage" flag. Also the AI will not try to hit fighters with it.
Very true. For turrets.
Bomber+
The AI will prefer to use this weapon against bombers
Again, true.
What it does not tell you is that "huge" flag works differently for AI pilot and turrets.
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Which means the entry in the wiki is wrong about it like MTG said =)
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Despite being one of the most effective anti-bomber/anti-turret weapons in the game, the AI is incapable of firing the Trebuchet. This is because of the combination of the "bomber+" flag and the "huge" flag in the table files. The first restricts the AI to firing the missile only at bombs and bombers, while the second prevents the AI from using it against smaller ships. Since these two types of targets are mutually exclusive, there are no valid targets at which the AI can fire the Trebuchet at. If you wish for AI to use Trebuchets in a mission, use the good-secondary-time SEXP.
From the Treb wiki page, last Veteran comments.
If you are right, and I have no reason to doubt you, then this entry is wrong and I bet many people around here consider this entry to be true. This must be fixed.
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In your case, you should start by telling what you can't do in insane, it'll be much smaller list.
My point was more that it's very reasonable to use it on hard.
I think a bit of accuracy and conservative usage... more or less everyone who plays on the difficulty should be able to make good use of it.
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Interesting.
Someone should fix what the wiki says about that, because it's clearly mentioned that the "bomber+" and the "huge" contradicts themselves and strictly prevent the AI to use Treb. I took that as true.
Actually, someone (Fury ?) should make a wikipage on Fury's IA content. I tried to look for information but I still don't know what is Fury's IA exactly. So it would be most welcome.
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Despite being one of the most effective anti-bomber/anti-turret weapons in the game, the AI is incapable of firing the Trebuchet. This is because of the combination of the "bomber+" flag and the "huge" flag in the table files. The first restricts the AI to firing the missile only at bombs and bombers, while the second prevents the AI from using it against smaller ships. Since these two types of targets are mutually exclusive, there are no valid targets at which the AI can fire the Trebuchet at. If you wish for AI to use Trebuchets in a mission, use the good-secondary-time SEXP.
From the Treb wiki page, last Veteran comments.
If you are right, and I have no reason to doubt you, then this entry is wrong and I bet many people around here consider this entry to be true. This must be fixed.
Well with retail AI the effect is thesame - the AI doesn't use trebs on anything without good-secondary-time.
Its just what's causing that which is different...or not? Maybe smart secondary selection bypasses some check? I donno.
I'd like to hear the actual reason for why the retail AI doesn't use trebs before we throw this one out the window.
Also I'm now thinking that someone should make a "fair" difficulty level where the player and the AI are on even ground (ie. no infinite weapon energy and targeting locked to lead indicator for AI, no damage buffer for player, no energy regen nerf).
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From the Treb wiki page, last Veteran comments.
I didn't realize you were referring to Trebuchet wikipage and not weapons.tbl. I hadn't even looked at that page until now. And you can fix the information yourself, just register if you haven't already. As Droid803 said already, the information is partially valid for retail however, albeit likely for different reasons.
Actually, someone (Fury ?) should make a wikipage on Fury's IA content. I tried to look for information but I still don't know what is Fury's IA exactly. So it would be most welcome.
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ai.tbl
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ai_profiles.tbl
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Interesting.
Someone should fix what the wiki says about that, because it's clearly mentioned that the "bomber+" and the "huge" contradicts themselves and strictly prevent the AI to use Treb. I took that as true.
Actually, someone (Fury ?) should make a wikipage on Fury's IA content. I tried to look for information but I still don't know what is Fury's IA exactly. So it would be most welcome.
Fury's AI is a new set of AI profiles built by Fury for Blue Planet: War in Heaven, as part of an attempt to reduce enemy count but make them behave more like human players (smarter and more challenging.) It uses a bunch of new SCP features, including a number by the wonderful Sushi.
It allows the AI to use dumbfire missiles, gives them the ability to execute vertical breaks, allows them to use strafing behaviors with glide-enabled ships, allows warship turrets to fire at their tabled rates rather than using random refire delay, and does a whole lot of other awesome things.
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MatthTheGeek, this may come as a surprise to you, but "huge" flag does not prevent AI pilot from using a weapon against bombers.
It does, actually. I just checked the code. The AI will not choose weapons with the HUGE flag unless it's targeting a big/huge ship. This excludes fighters and bombers.
And the good-secondary-time comment is also correct... that is checked prior to the HUGE comparison. So you could theoretically fire Trebuchets at a wing of fighters, if all of them were named in a good-secondary-time sexp.
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Command: All pilots, target those Basilisks with your Helios torpedoes!
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MatthTheGeek, this may come as a surprise to you, but "huge" flag does not prevent AI pilot from using a weapon against bombers.
It does, actually. I just checked the code. The AI will not choose weapons with the HUGE flag unless it's targeting a big/huge ship. This excludes fighters and bombers.
And the good-secondary-time comment is also correct... that is checked prior to the HUGE comparison. So you could theoretically fire Trebuchets at a wing of fighters, if all of them were named in a good-secondary-time sexp.
u r teh nubz
The good-secondary-time trick has been known for a long while.
Fury's AI, however, permits Trebuchets to be fired at fighters and bombers. I don't know why, apparently neither you nor Fury do either, but it does. I'm guessing smart secondary weapon selection.
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u r teh nubz
The good-secondary-time trick has been known for a long while.
I never said it hadn't been. I was confirming the veteran comment on the wiki page.
Fury's AI, however, permits Trebuchets to be fired at fighters and bombers. I don't know why, apparently neither you nor Fury do either, but it does. I'm guessing smart secondary weapon selection.
Actually, Fury did say he thought it was because of $smart secondary weapon selection in ai_profiles.tbl. And he's correct, that's what bypasses the HUGE restriction in the code.
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You say that, but I've personally tried Fury's AI in retail on 3.6.12 before. I never saw my wingmen using Trebs.
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Well, try BP:AoA with the 3.6.12 AI. Go to Forced Entry, equip your friendlies with Trebs, and watch the whole mission drop down a bit in difficulty.
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That's a pretty high-end campaign; without looking, I would expect it to make liberal use of good-secondary-time.
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That's a pretty high-end campaign; without looking, I would expect it to make liberal use of good-secondary-time.
Doesn't.
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You say that, but I've personally tried Fury's AI in retail on 3.6.12 before. I never saw my wingmen using Trebs.
Don't know about wingmen, but watch how fast the Trinity dies from Basilisk Treb fire(in Mystery of the Trinity).
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I don't recall Basilisks using Trebs in that mission.
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Of course, given that they don't with retail AI. But I guess Timerlane have tried this mission with Fury's and noticed that they did use them.
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And they use it so much. While I was playing through the retail missions with Fury's AI, I had to tweak a great number of them so they'd be beatable on Normal. The enemies strikecraft were often given Tempests and/or Trebuchets to limit their secondary usage or as default which utterly destroys some escort or protection missions.
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Yeah, that's what I meant. Maras, Aeshmas and Basilisks all have Trebs in their default loadouts(as well as many/most Shivan bombers, but of course they're usually 'customized' to carry bombs).
I thought it might be a bug at first, until I heard about the 'smart weapon selection' in Fury AI, and figured that must have bypassed whatever hangups that kept the AI from using Trebs. They'll also happily shoot them at you if you're in a "bomber"-flagged craft, so they're definitely used the way both the "bomber+" and "huge" flags imply they should be.
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Indeed, Bear Baiting with Fury's AI is ridiculously hard because of the Trebuchets being lobbed at you.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67DCm0szeQY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekdFaVcPICM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOVAv1fjxDo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7p1d0De5sk
Two missions where I actually put in a fairly decent performance, you really can't afford to take Harpoons on these if you want all these kills especially on ITLD.
I don't really know how better to end any 'debate' here. :p You can see my trying to make harpoons work effectively in other parts of the playthrough but they simply aren't fast enough (lock or travel time) to make it worth taking however many of them over 200 tempest.
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Remember, though, you're a somewhat-specialized case in that your skills allow you to use Tempests to absolutely brutal effect. As I noted before, my own skills do not allow me to do so, so Harpoons are far more useful to me personally.
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Tempests are pretty easy to use bro.
Point and shoot. No funky missile lock antics.
Harpoons are good for killing interceptors when you're feeling lazy (ie. don't even want to point, just shoot) though.
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It's not really that easy to use considering it doesn't always quite align with primary weapons and has a short range. Not everyone is capable of playing Insane or even simply targeting and chasing down targets quick enough to make good use of Tempests.
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I don't play on insane.
Insane is for insane people :P
The AI likes flying head on into you (and everything else) anyway, unless you have Fury AI (which I hope changes the AI's tendency to RAM EVERYTHING IN SIGHT). Range isn't really an issue unless you're flying escort, and you're in something like an Ares.
Most things either don't take many tempests to kill, or are slow enough for you to fire a lot of them into it.
Frankly, if there's a cruiser to kill, I'll take tempests over cyclops. (They have a higher DPS anyway).
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Well, I don't know about Harpoons (which I'm not a fan of even in terms of purely Aspect Seekers) but the long range of Tornadoes make them very useful. The ability to have either 1x or 2x the power of a Harpoon simply by switching dual-fire modes is nice too. In general I just use Trebuchets anyway ;)
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Trebs are better than tempests in many situations, actually, I'd agree.
They have very different roles though.
I've always felt that Tornadoes run out a little too fast if they're on dual fire which is when they're most effective.
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Yeah, but in single shot mode they're about equal in effectiveness as a dual harpoon with more range to boot. Honestly, I usually leave the interceptor missiles for wingmen.
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...unless you have Fury AI (which I hope changes the AI's tendency to RAM EVERYTHING IN SIGHT)...
Not really, but they do move towards you in a corkscrew-like motion now.
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In High Noon using retail AI, you can use Trebs to take out the Basilisks before they get to you; the last one moves towards you in a corkscrew-like motion before blowing up...
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That's a deathspin I think.
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A number of ships do that once in a while, Enigmatic, not just the last victim of a wave.
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It was just a sort-of joke, the last one spinning because the rest blew up too far away to see the spin properly (Basilisks are slowish) :)
I always used to keep shooting the Hercs in NTF missions with the Tempests even though they were already dead, because I was too close and couldn't see them start to spin. The blow up quicker if you shoot them while they're spinning - I think...
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Yeah, they do. However, in recent months I've taken to pressing the Target Nearest Hostile key more than shooting them up, which targets the next live hostile while the one I just shot down is spinning to death. This is something auto-targeting cannot do, apparently.
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auto targeting is only marginally more useful than auto speed match
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Ueh?
I like autotargeting. It ensures I'm always targeting something.
I never match speed though, since I like doing it manually by eyeballing it and using the Z-key better.
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I leave auto-targeting on by default, but when I'm in the middle of killing a whole bunch of enemies and my most recent victim dies in a ball of fire, I hit the H key to attack my next enemy faster.
After having far too many incidents of me ramming a Shivan from behind, I've turned on auto-match speed on certain occasions, such as during a dogfight.
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I tend to use a mixture of Y targeting, H targeting, Mark I Eyeball targeting. In special cases I use auto-XYZ feature but more often than not I don't.
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^
What he said.
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If I'm in a furball (like in "but hate the traitor") I don't even bother to target, I just dispatch enemies.
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I have the Y Targeting function mapped to one of my thumb keys on the Saitek, so I target whatever I'm looking at in that situation.
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yeah mine is the index fire button on the X45. hostile and attacker are the thumbs, but attacker never seems to work all that well in FS2. never had a problem in FS1 though.
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I think I've got Auto-Target on so when the ship dies I target a new one immediately. Other than that, I've got both the H and Y targeting keys also mapped to two of the buttons on my WingMan, right next to the Secondary and Countermeasure keys.
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I have the H and Y keys mapped as well (to their default). I recall mapping the Target Subsystem in Reticle key as well. Forgot which key I bound it to, however.
The HUD's targeting system is especially important for me, because I can't aim with my eyesight alone. This is why I still play FS2_Open in 1024x768 on a MacBook with a 1280x800 screen size.
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I have the H and Y keys mapped as well (to their default). I recall mapping the Target Subsystem in Reticle key as well. Forgot which key I bound it to, however.
By default it's 'v'.
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I have recently become converted on using Tempests, at least against the retail AI (though I've noticed a marked improvement in my piloting abilities over recent weeks). I still have to try it against Fury's AI.
And I am only a Medium-difficulty pilot though.
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And I am only a Medium-difficulty pilot though.
Still better than me; I'm a Very Easy-difficulty pilot. :p
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i'm probably capable of flying medium in most cases, but easy or VE is just more fun. running out of energy and longass AB recharging is fking annoying.
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i'm probably capable of flying medium in most cases, but easy or VE is just more fun. running out of energy and longass AB recharging is fking annoying.
Can't say that's every really been a problem for me on Medium, but then I do tend to conserve my shots. (I run out of energy only when using disruptor guns like the... Mekhu?)
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I run out of energy only when using disruptor guns like the... Mekhu? Akheton.
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Akheton and Maxim are the only things that tend to leave me dry unless it's a mission like Universal Truth where I tend to run dry by about the ~4 minute mark.
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kayser on the ery runs me dry pretty quick. i'm getting better, but it's leftovers from when i played very easy when i was 10 or so on fs1, when spray n pray ruled my style.
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I still employ spray n' pray once in a while to make up for my terrible marksmanship.
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I keep my finger glued to the trigger through the majority of most missions. :p
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I tried to be conservative and only shoot when the circle is around the "Y" reticle, but quickly abandoned that idea.
I find that shooting by eye is useful when surrounded by enemies at close range, especially useful when Tempests are available (almost all the time).
The furthest I've gotten on Insane is the Roman's Blunder (Iceni asteroid mission, NTF loop). Note some missions took more than 5 tries... ;)
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the Roman's Blunder (Iceni asteroid mission, NTF loop).
No (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/The_Romans_Blunder) no (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Rebels_%26_Renegades) no (http://omglol.kerrolisaa.com/1/9957.jpg).
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The furthest I've gotten on Insane is the Roman's Blunder (Iceni asteroid mission, NTF loop). Note some missions took more than 5 tries... ;)
That's the third mission.
FAIL.
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Oh well, and yes, I failed because I didn't even start that mission :p
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So you've only played up to The Place of Chariots? :wtf:
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The Place of Chariots - isn't that the 2nd mission? Yes, the Lokis are annoying, but I eventually got revenge...
Ok, Roman's Blunder just popped up in my head, I've forgotten what names the missions are. I think I need to play FS2 again after my exams. On Insane, I've played up to Rebels & Renegades. In Easy, I've finished the campaign a few? times. I didn't bother going right through with hard or medium. I change the difficulty now-days if the mission is too hard. In Bearbaiting I go right down to Medium or Easy.
I note how annoying aspect seeking missiles get as the AI get smarter, which usually means I go to Tempests, especially in Herc II's... ;)
Actually, in the 2nd mission, what's your strategy for that Hercules that is hell bent on killing you from t=0? Usually I try and send one wing man after it so it has two things to deal with. The rest are too busy with the Lokis, etc.
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Does anyone else think Bearbaiting would be a lot easier if we had the Sekhmet?
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Does anyone else think that entire "Let's **** **** up with the Sath mother****ers" mission arc would be more fun if it looked like a real operation? :P
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yes. yes i do. the sathanas was the most anti-climactic "boss fight" i've ever seen.
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Any mission with the collie in it or setup for the collie or any mission which mentioned the collie in the brief or debrief was subpar.
"Their Finest Hour" is the only one that's even 'half' decent.
Edit;
Excluding CoTTII, but that even that mission isn't as good as CoTTI.